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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: DeafDoggy488 on Friday 09 February 18 23:18 GMT (UK)

Title: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DeafDoggy488 on Friday 09 February 18 23:18 GMT (UK)
Hi,

I'm currently researching my paternal side of family tree. I've come stuck on my 3x Great Grandfather - George Sneddon who's the father of Janet Sneddon who was married to my 2x Great Grandfather John Stewart.

According to the records, George married Agnes Moffat in 1847 in Dumfries and Galloway. In the censuses from 1851 to 1901, his birth year kept changing which makes it impossible to track him down, which isn't unusual for that time as I see this a lot with the other members in my tree.) He stated that he was born in Dumfries-shire on every one of these censuses. However, on his death record, it was stated that he died in Dalbeattie in 1902 at the age of 75 and that his father was a Robert Sneddon.

I tried to find a birth record for George but it's been difficult with vague information and lack of mother names. Also I'm aware that his name might not be his "Christian name" as George could be his middle name and his surname will have been spelt differently back then. So any advice on how to search for someone with their middle names and no known Christian name?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DonM on Saturday 10 February 18 12:54 GMT (UK)
I see what you mean.  I did a broad search of the Registers at Scotland's People using last names only the below is the only OPR marriage of anything close to a Snedden/Sneddon and a Moffat/Moffit in Scotland from 1845-1854.

SNEDAN THOMAS JANET MOFFAT/FR2168 (FR2168)
13/06/1851 821/90 125 Dumfries

I am not suggesting it never occurred simply it is not in the OPR's.  The other possibility is the informant on the death registration may have provided incorrect information if not a family member.

Do you have Janet's birth registration from SP?

Don


Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DeafDoggy488 on Saturday 10 February 18 17:53 GMT (UK)
I think you may be right. When I looked at George's death register and it was stated that the informant was his Son in Law- William Blackwood. So it is entirely possible that he could have got it wrong.

I have attached a copy of Janet's birth register for you to look at.

Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 10 February 18 20:17 GMT (UK)
Hi there.

What were the names of Agnes Moffat's parents? They had mostly girls didn't they. Maybe some clues from the names they used for them.

Monica
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 10 February 18 20:29 GMT (UK)
George gave his birthplace as Dryfesdale?

Not his entry, but could this be a sibling? From the SP OPR index:

Mathew SNODEN, parents ROBERT SNODEN/JANET COPLAND
04/10/1825
Ref 820/20 23
Dryfesdale

Janet was the name of the first born daughter of George and Agnes in 1847 in Kirkmichael.

Any luck finding George in 1841. Given his birth year, he might be working away from home so this may not help.

Monica
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 10 February 18 20:45 GMT (UK)
George and Agnes called their second born daughter in 1849 Dina/Diana.

Have you come across this couple in Lochmaben 1851. Wondering if there some connection to George:

Robert Snedden 45 Agricultural Labourer b. Lochmaben
Dinah Snedden 44 wife b. Hutton

Address: Greensaughs, Torthorwald Dumfriesshire

This couple ((Diana's maiden name is Paterson) marriage/banns show on 6 Dec 1835 in Applegarth,Dumfries. No children showing with them in 1841. They show as living in Broonhill, Lochmaben where George and Agnes are living in 1851.

Monica

Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 10 February 18 20:46 GMT (UK)
Have you tried looking at the children's christening entries to see whether any family surnames show as sponsors that may help you?

Monica
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DeafDoggy488 on Saturday 10 February 18 21:15 GMT (UK)
Hi there.

What were the names of Agnes Moffat's parents? They had mostly girls didn't they. Maybe some clues from the names they used for them.

Monica

Agnes's parents were called John Moffat and Margaret Craig. She did have a lot of sisters and one brother- John Jnr.

Agnes and George had lots of children-
Janet
James- born 1848
Dinah
William Moffat- 1850
Mary
Elizabeth
Agnes
Jean
Jane
Robina
Amelia
Anella?
George Jr- 1866

I couldn't find George in 1841 Census but I'll need to look again.
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 10 February 18 21:19 GMT (UK)
I struggle to find George too in 1841  :-\

Take care on the child James 1848 you show. There is a mistrancription on the a/try census for 1851 which shows a child James b. 1848. However, this entry also shows as daughter, most likely Janet that you have also born in July 1847.

Monica
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DeafDoggy488 on Saturday 10 February 18 21:29 GMT (UK)
I'm struggling to find any christening records for most of the Sneddon children on SP which is rather strange as majority of them were born after 1855 when the the more detailed records started.

I did wonder about James/Janet on the census.
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 10 February 18 21:35 GMT (UK)
Because of the spelling variations on the surname, try searching the OPRs on SP this way:

Surname - SN*N

Area - Dunfriesshire

Time period - 1845-1855

That is enough to bring up all the pre 1855 christenings for them.

Monica
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DonM on Saturday 10 February 18 22:00 GMT (UK)
Here are 5 to start with.  Still puzzling as to why no George.

SNEDDAN   JANET   GEORGE SNEDDAN/AGNES MOFFAT FR226 (FR226)   01/08/1847   Kirkmichael
SNEDDAN   DINA           GEORGE SNEDDAN/AGNES MOFFAT FR229 (FR229)   19/01/1849   Kirkmichael
SNEDDEN   WILLIAM MOFFAT   GEORGE SNEDDEN/AGNES MOFFAT FR559 (FR559)   06/10/1850   Lochmaben
SNEDDON   MARY   GEORGE SNEDDON/AGNES MOFFAT FR562 (FR562)   04/07/1852   Lochmaben
SNEDDON   ELIZABETH  GEORGE SNEDDON/AGNES MOFFAT FR565 (FR565)   04/06/1854   Lochmaben

And these from the Statutory Records 1855-65 in Lochmaben

SNEDDEN   AGNES   1856   Lochmaben Landward   
SNEDDEN   JANE   1858   Lochmaben   
SNEDDEN   ROBINA   1859   Lochmaben   
SNEDDEN   AMELIA   1861   Lochmaben

Don   
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DeafDoggy488 on Saturday 10 February 18 22:06 GMT (UK)
Hi again, I did what you suggested but all the info I could find were of the parents and location as well as the date of the birth. No extra info were available. This is rather baffling...

@DonM I'm beginning to think that George Jnr may be a mistake and might be meant for another sneddon family.
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 10 February 18 22:09 GMT (UK)
George Jnr is there ;)

Name    George Snedden
Gender    Male
Birth Date    18 Oct 1866
Birthplace    KIRKPATRICK JUXTA,DUMFRIES,SCOTLAND
Father's Name    George Snedden
Mother's Name    Agnes Moffat

Monica

ADDED: Given the gap between Amelia in 1861 and George Jnr...he must have been a surprise baby  ::)
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 10 February 18 22:12 GMT (UK)
Hi again, I did what you suggested but all the info I could find were of the parents and location as well as the date of the birth. No extra info were available. This is rather baffling...


SP is pay to view so you would have to buy credits to view the original images there. 7 would let you view 5 original images online (30 credits).
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DonM on Saturday 10 February 18 22:21 GMT (UK)
Monica as always you are a star. 

I never thought to look for the accident after having all those children.

Don

Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DeafDoggy488 on Saturday 10 February 18 22:38 GMT (UK)
I did pay for them but the info is vague. I'll post some on here and see what you think.

It also never has occurred to me that George Jr was a surprise baby! Don't know if I feel sorry for poor Agnes or not!
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 10 February 18 22:47 GMT (UK)
Surprise babies always become the special ones! Enough children in the house to help take care of him! Sure you have this but just for background now. From 1871:

George Snedden 45 farm servant
Agnes Snedden 47
Dinah Snedden 21
Mary Snedden 18
Agnes Snedden 14
Jane Snedden 13
Robina Snedden 11
Anella (must be Amelia) Snedden 9
George Snedden 4
Margaret Stewart 5 granddaughter
John H Black 35

Address: Upper Holm Stolqubie, Carsphairn

Monica
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DeafDoggy488 on Saturday 10 February 18 23:12 GMT (UK)
That's strange. I looked at Janet Sneddon and her Husband James Stewart family and there is no record of a Margaret Stewart being one of their children.... That's new!

I've tried to attach couple copies of the baptism records for some of the Sneddon kids but they're too big to upload so I'll have to try to edit them tomorrow.

Is there usually some additional information on these kinds of records?
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 11 February 18 14:53 GMT (UK)
Old Parish Register entries are a bit of a lucky dip...you don't know what is there until you look. Best expectations really is that the names of sponsors to the christenings provide some clues as to family names and help you make further connections.

Monica
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DeafDoggy488 on Sunday 11 February 18 22:51 GMT (UK)
Most of the baptism registers for all of Sneddon kids had no mention of sponsors so I'm not sure...

Here is an example of a register for Dinah Sneddon.
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: Millmoor on Sunday 11 February 18 23:39 GMT (UK)
Looking at the dates of the birth of Margaret Stewart (granddaughter) in the 1871 census posted by Monica did Janet Sneddon not marry James Stewart until 1872?

I think,therefore,that  this could be Margaret Stewart's birth (as Sneddon)

Margaret Sneddon birth 9 June 1865 Kirkpatrick Juxta. Mother Janet Sneddon.(No father named)

Now turning to the excellent Scottish Indexes and their paternity decree case index

Pursuer: Janet Snedden,daughter of and residing with George Snedden (Farm Servant),  Cogrie Muir, Kirkpatrick Juxta.

Defender: Alexander Stewart, Carter, Lochmaben ( formerly at Kersmuir, Johnstone)

Year of child's birth 1865
Year extract issued 1866.

So while Margaret's surname is Stewart it would appear her father was not James Stewart.

I think were you to locate Margaret's birth cert.you will find an RCE (Register of Corrected Entries)  attached to it outlining the above paternity.

William
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DeafDoggy488 on Monday 12 February 18 00:05 GMT (UK)
Millmoor- THANK YOU for this.

You've uncovered another skeleton in my family cupboard.... seems Janet has a thing for Stewart men. haha.

Can you tell me how to access RCE? I'm always learning about different sources for Scottish ancestry so the more, the better! Particular for the records pre 1850 as I've found more family members from 1700s and before, but no records has been found. So I would love to find out if there is another online source where I can find a copy of records from that time?

Thanks
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: Millmoor on Monday 12 February 18 09:53 GMT (UK)
"Original entries in the Statutory Registers  of Births  Deaths and  Marriages cannot be altered but sometimes an error is noted or additional information comes to light.These amendments are recorded in a separate register- the Register  of Corrected Entries (RCE). A cross reference to the RCE vol and page is added in the margin of the statutory register entry".

So the RCE's only apply to the post  1855 statutory registers. On Scotland's People if an RCE has  been added  to a BMD there will be  a link to it at the top of the certificate which you will have already played for.

They will  not help with pre 1855 gaps. As Monica said the OPR's can be very hit and miss. A lot of them do not survive. Researching pre 1855  in Scotland is not without its challenges!

William





Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DeafDoggy488 on Friday 02 March 18 22:10 GMT (UK)
Hi again....

Back here as I've hit a stumbling block re Sneddon family tree. I've been looking for a marriage record between Agnes Moffat and George Sneddon but couldn't find one. And according to Ancestry, Agnes parents are John Moffat and Margaret Craig, however, when I looked them up, I found that they did have children but Agnes was not one of their children. I know that some other members just pluck a name out of nowhere and decided that they matches, even if they don't. Hence trying to find a marriage record as it might help to tell me who her parents were.

Fiona
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Friday 02 March 18 22:18 GMT (UK)

According to the records, George married Agnes Moffat in 1847 in Dumfries and Galloway.


Hi Fiona

You mentioned this at the begining of the thread. If the record is available on the Old Parish Registers (is this year from their children's births?), it would not give you Agnes' parents' names as it took place before 1855 and the start of official registration. Your best option, if you haven't done so already, would be to check her death registration and hopefully the informant gave the correct details.

Monica  :)
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DeafDoggy488 on Friday 02 March 18 22:28 GMT (UK)
"You mentioned this at the begining of the thread. If the record is available on the Old Parish Registers (is this year from their children's births?), it would not give you Agnes' parents' names as it took place before 1855 and the start of official registration. Your best option, if you haven't done so already, would be to check her death registration and hopefully the informant gave the correct details."

I did wonder that Monica. I checked the OPR and there were no sign of a marriage between them in any years at all. I'm also struggling to find a death record which is rather strange because Agnes was supposed to have died about 1898. I know that it was definitely sometimes before George's death which was in 1902.

I even used different spelling of surname to try and increase my chances of finding her.
Fiona
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Friday 02 March 18 22:44 GMT (UK)
Is 1871 census the last one where George and Agnes show together?

I can see a possible entry for George aged 53 working at Auchendolly, Crossmichael in 1881. If that is him do you think? Have you checked to see what his marital status is?

Monica
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Friday 02 March 18 22:50 GMT (UK)
Just found this entry for 1891. This is from a transcript with an error for this George's age (the original will help you confrm the right age and other details)

George Sneddon 14 head farm servant b. Dryfesdale, Dumfriesshire
Agnes Sneddon 66 b. Kirkmichael, Dumfriesshire

Address: Jarbruck Cottage, Glencairn Dumfries

Monica
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Friday 02 March 18 22:56 GMT (UK)
Mmm...wondering whether Agnes' death has been indexed with errors?

There is a death entry in SP for an AGATHA Sneddon, aged 74. Death in 1896 in Glencairn Dumfries (where we have that 1891 census entry above).

No second surname showing...never a good sign when looking for a married woman as it might indicate that the informant did not know/remember her parents' names... :-\

Worth checking maybe?

Monica
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: Millmoor on Friday 02 March 18 23:09 GMT (UK)
Just found the same thing, Monica.The reference for Agatha Sneddon is 826/9 - the same reference for Agnes Moffat and both showing as age 74. It must surely be a transcription error.

William
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 03 March 18 11:02 GMT (UK)
That is a good news, William. Looks like it might be the right entry for her then.

Monica  :)
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DeafDoggy488 on Monday 05 March 18 20:16 GMT (UK)
Ah Agatha Sneddon.... Never thought of looking for a different name but to be honest, Agatha and Agnes aren't exactly similar.

I've looked at the 1871 Census, George was indeed in Crossmichael and his martial status was married. Perhaps, he was working away or both Agnes and George separated but never divorced? But I've found another interesting fact. Agnes Sneddon (the daughter of Agnes Snr and George) had an illegitimate child- James Johnston Sneddon in 1874 (they were shown on the 1881 Census along with Agnes Snr.

I noticed a link though.... when I looked at 1901 Census for George's whereabouts and it turned out he was visiting someone in Dumbarton- a Adam Moffat who was born in Moffat in 1849. I started to wonder if he was a relative of Agnes Moffat? So I did some digging and found on 1891 Census, Adam Moffat had a James J Sneddon staying with him and he was recorded as 'Nephew" to the Head of household. So this got me thinking that perhaps, Adam was a relative of Agnes Moffat?" But struggling to piece that info together. It's still a breakthrough though!
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: Millmoor on Monday 05 March 18 21:10 GMT (UK)
This is another transcription of the 1891 census which Monica found:

George Sneddon 64 Farm servant b Dumfriesshire
Agnes Sneddon 66 b Kirkmichael

Jarbuck Cottage,Glencairn, Dumfriesshire

So I think you can rule out separation/ divorce. The death cert for Agnes in Glencairn in 1896 ought to give you her parents names.

There seems to be more than one Adam Moffat born in Moffat in the late 1840's but I think the following may explain the connection.

Marriage: Adam Moffat and Mary Sneddon 1881 ref 863/10 Crossmichael.

Censuses show Mary Moffat was born in Lochmaben c. 1854 - therefore think Mary is George and Agnes's daughter. This does not rule out a connection on the Moffat side as well but could also explain the presence of James J Sneddon with them in 1891. (Not unusual for family members to be recorded as visitors on censuses). Marriage cert. from SP would confirm if correct.

William
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: Millmoor on Monday 05 March 18 22:43 GMT (UK)
A bit more about Adam and Mary Moffat.

Death for him Garngadhill,Glasgow 1916.

Death for her Garngadhill, Glasgow 1920. She appears to have left a will:

 Moffat Mary or Sneddon 63, Springburn Road Glasgow died 6 March 1920,at Glasgow  testate. Confirmation granted at Glasgow, 15 March, to Mary Moffat Blackwood or Wilson,63 Springburn Road, Glasgow , her niece.

(Valuation rolls have Adam Moffat as tenant,occupier of 63 Springburn Road in 1915 and Mary Moffat as same in 1920).

William
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DeafDoggy488 on Monday 05 March 18 23:11 GMT (UK)
Look like both Adam and Mary never had children. That's a shame

I've noticed something strange- On Adam's marriage certificate, his parents were recorded as William Moffat and Martha Kennedy. But on his death certificate, his mother was written down as Jane Kennedy.

I've looked at SP and can't seem to find a record of Martha/Jane Kennedy. The hunt goes on...
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: Millmoor on Tuesday 06 March 18 00:43 GMT (UK)
There is an OPR for the birth of an Adam Moffat 11/9/1848 in Moffat - parents William and Martha Moffat - her surname, however, is given as Benson. This does seem to tie up with the 1851 census where there are also two sisters - the OPRs also give mother's maiden name as Benson.

Find a grave has a death for Martha Moffat 18 Dec 1851. William then seems to have remarried to an Isabella Marchbank in 1852- Find a grave gives his death in 1879. If I have followed the correct William his occupation seems to have gone from butcher to farmer and then grocer/barber!

If correct worth remembering that Adam was very young when his mother died.

You might also find it interesting to follow James Johnston Sneddon - he seems to have married Helen Grant Anderson in 1899 and is showing as a writer in Bothwell in 1901. All subsequent records for him are in England (and there are a lot of them!). He and Minnie Louisa  Gobell seem to have lived as man and wife from at least 1903 onwards, only getting married shortly before his death in 1927.  Interestingly he named his house in East Molesey, Glencairn. On the marriage cert he names George Sneddon,  farmer as his father! I cannot see a death for his first wife but he is recorded as a widower on his second marriage cert.

William
Title: Re: Sneddon/Snedden Ancestors
Post by: DeafDoggy488 on Thursday 08 March 18 21:30 GMT (UK)
I think perhaps, he considered George and Agnes as his parents, rather than grandparents because they were the ones who raised him? It's a plausible explanation. I didn't see his name on the subsequent censuses with his mother and stepfather before he moved away.

Thanks for digging into this family history, I struggled because when I looked through the Sneddon line, from Agnes Sneddon Snr (Moffat), I found that others had traced her lineage all the way back to William Wallace in 1200s! I was pretty sceptical about this because it's well known that William Wallace did not have any children at the time of his execution. So I thought I'd double check to make sure all information were correct. Turn out, it might be possible that I am descended from William Wallace?