RootsChat.Com

General => The Common Room => Topic started by: collin on Tuesday 13 February 18 10:16 GMT (UK)

Title: Any suggestions please
Post by: collin on Tuesday 13 February 18 10:16 GMT (UK)
Hi
     Does anyone have any ideas on this mystery?
Great grannie was born in Barnsley in 1865 her brother Matthew Abbott was born in Wigan 2 November 1867, they were both baptised in Barnsley in 1868 then the next brother John born in Wigan in 1870.
In the 1871 Matthew is missing, and another brother called Matthew was born in 1876. I can't find any death or burial for the first Matthew,   usually you find one or the other can't find either.
There were 4 Matthews in all, cousins named after the grandfather.
1 lived in Wigan 1868-1935
1 1869-1945 in Wigan and Yorkshire
1 1876-1948 our uncle Mat
and then this missing baby
Thank you
Title: Re: Any suggestions please
Post by: Milliepede on Tuesday 13 February 18 11:01 GMT (UK)
What was the mothers maiden name - Rothwell? 

I can't see a death for the first Matthew either  :-\

Have you checked the 1911 census ** for the parents (if still alive) to see how many children they have as having been born/died?

** forget that idea looks like father is widowed before 1911  :(
Title: Re: Any suggestions please
Post by: mowsehowse on Tuesday 13 February 18 11:19 GMT (UK)

Have you checked the 1911 census ** for the parents (if still alive) to see how many children they have as having been born/died?

** forget that idea looks like father is widowed before 1911  :(

This is an interesting point you make Milliepede -
Does this mean that a widowed, (or divorced,) man did not need to state how many children he had fathered during the length of his marriage?
Was a widow woman required to supply that information, or only people who were still in a marriage?
Title: Re: Any suggestions please
Post by: Millmoor on Tuesday 13 February 18 11:45 GMT (UK)
Worth  reading the wording on a 1911 census form - "state for each married woman on this schedule,completed years the present marriage has lasted" and then "children born alive to present marriage".

Key word in the above is present. Given the number of scorings out I have noticed with  the above figures eg widows filling in when they did not have to it does seem to have caused a  degree of confusion.

William
Title: Re: Any suggestions please
Post by: mowsehowse on Tuesday 13 February 18 12:03 GMT (UK)
Thank you William.
Excellent to have clarification on that.
Title: Re: Any suggestions please
Post by: collin on Tuesday 13 February 18 13:41 GMT (UK)
A lot of the information on the 1911 census is wrong.
It says William Abbott was born in Wigan when it was Codnor in Derbyshire and it also says the marriage had lasted 27 years producing 11 children 9 still living when in fact they weren't even married! She married her first husband 27 years previous and had 11 children to 3 husband's but had never divorced her first and he went to prison for bigamy in 1898.
Thank you for looking.
Title: Re: Any suggestions please
Post by: iolaus on Wednesday 14 February 18 16:54 GMT (UK)
I'm assuming great Grannie is
Elizabeth Abbott (MMN Rothwell) born Barnsley 1865
Matthew Abbott (MMN Rothwell) born Barnsley 1867

On the 1871 census there is
John Abbott in Wigan, 8 months old son of William Abbott and Jane
also Elizabeth Abbott aged 5, born Barnsley

Seem to be the right family with no mention of Matthew

If you have Matthew being baptised 1868 it seems likely we are looking for a death between 1868 and April 1871

The only potential I can see and this is widely stretching if I'm honest is in 1869 in Pontefract (so next district to Barnsley) is a Matthew Rothwell who died aged 1.
I can't see a birth for Matthew Rothwell

Editted to say buried in Whitwood, Yorkshire on  Oct 17th - aged 1yr and 11 months - so would have been born Nov 1867
Title: Re: Any suggestions please
Post by: collin on Wednesday 14 February 18 18:23 GMT (UK)
Hi
    You are right on everything and I think this Matthew Rothwell is probably right so thank you very much. Just recently in the past few days I found that their father William stole 18 fowls in Barnsley and escaped via the bedroom window, he wasn't caught until a year later in Wigan and was sentenced to two months in prison, so it looks like he was lying low in Pontefract, so now the pieces are fitting together.
Going to work soon but now have something to look into. Thank you again.
Title: Re: Any suggestions please
Post by: iolaus on Wednesday 14 February 18 18:44 GMT (UK)
If he was lying low they may have used her maiden name as a surname, which could explain the death under Rothwell - hopefully something on the death certificate would confirm or rule it out

I
Title: Re: Any suggestions please
Post by: collin on Thursday 15 February 18 09:48 GMT (UK)
I feel sure this is the right one. Whitwood is Castleford area near Pontefract and a coal mining area so probably went where nobody knew him, I will send for the certificate to be sure. Many thanks
Title: Re: Any suggestions please
Post by: Milliepede on Thursday 15 February 18 10:56 GMT (UK)
I think there's a pretty good chance.  Good luck and do post again when you get the certificate :)
Title: Re: Any suggestions please
Post by: collin on Thursday 15 February 18 13:46 GMT (UK)
Will do, I ordered it today and will be ready on the 21st.
Title: Re: Any suggestions please
Post by: collin on Tuesday 20 February 18 16:44 GMT (UK)
The death certificate came today, the baby died of measles and diarrhea on October 14 1869 at Whitwood aged 1 yr 11 months.
It says he was the son of Matthew Rothwell coal miner and was registered by Jane Rothwell.
I am sure this is right so Matthew Rothwell was the alias he was using whilst trying to evade the police for stealing in Barnsley
Title: Re: Any suggestions please
Post by: iolaus on Wednesday 21 February 18 09:50 GMT (UK)
Seems to fit, with parents first names plus Matthews job
Title: Re: Any suggestions please
Post by: collin on Wednesday 21 February 18 10:33 GMT (UK)
Yes thank you, the pieces fit, in 1879 he was working as a carter which seemed odd when he had always been a miner, then I found he  received a fractured scull in a massive street brawl in Wigan in 1878, so he wouldn't be fit to work in the pit.