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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: WilliamsKingBinns on Tuesday 13 February 18 21:36 GMT (UK)
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Hi all, this is my first post ever so please be patient if I have missed anything or am posting in the wrong place...!
I have just received a PDF birth certificate from the GRO for my great uncle Leslie James Williams, dated 29 April 1917 - see attached. His father, James Thomas Williams (born 24/10/1979), is listed as being a Private in the Northumberland Fusiliers. This is surprising not only as up until now we hadn't found any records of James Thomas serving in WW1 or at any other time but also because he, his father and his grandfather were all born in Bermondsey, London.
Does anyone know why a Londoner was serving with the Northumberland Fusiliers?
We have no family connection to that part of the world, and the tree so far sits firmly within the boundaries of the district of Southwark, London. It's definitely the correct birth certificate for the right person, so I wonder whether an error was made by the registrar who made the record? He is also listed as being a Warehouseman and we know this is correct.
I've done some light research using the medal rolls on Ancestry but with a name like this and no obvious connection to Northumberland, it's proving to be a bit difficult! Can anyone could help shed light on this?
Thanks in advance!
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it may well be that the local recruitment offices would know how old he was, if he was too young to sign up, they would not take him without his parents permission if he was under 18 or whatever age he had to qualify but another outfit further away from home may well overlook the age if they had a requirement for a certain amount of troops boys as young as 14 were signing up and being accepted rightly or wronglyif you ere there you eere thought to be old enough to know what you were signing up for and willling to take your chances with the rest; my great grandad was20 in the first ww but 45 in the 2ww.
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Men were sent to whichever Regiment needed them irrespective of location.
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As jim1 says.
In addition, over 60% of WW1 service records were destroyed in the second war by bombing so it is not unusual that no records seems to be there for a man of that name in that regiment. There is no medal record to be found either which suggests that he may not have served overseas either so family memory of war service would be likely not to be strong.
Welcome to Rootschat!
MaxD
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Have you found his medal card and noted the date he signed on? My grandfather and three of his brothers in law were in the Northumberland fusiliers and they lived many miles away in the old East Riding of Yorkshire. I was fortunate to find the WWI medal cards of all four men which showed they belonged to the RAMC (Royal Army Medical Corps) and three of them had consecutive army regiment numbers dating from 1911. Another piece of good luck was that my grandfather's complete records from 1911 to his discharge from the army in 1916 (from exposure to gas poison) were all intact.
In 1908, the government of the day had decided to recruit a part time Territorial army which they could call on if and when the country needed them - and from the list of battalions in the Northumberland Fusiliers, their recruiting office had been very busy
The records show that my grandfather trained in his home town but spent a couple of weeks up in Newcastle, Northumberland, for additional specialist training. The 1911 census show he and his brothers in law were all poorly paid unskilled workers and I imagine that they earned extra money doing a few hours per week in the local territorial army - maybe a couple of hours midweek and a few more hours on a weekend - just like the territorial army of today.
This page shows the Regiments of the London Borough which doesn't include the Northumberland Fusiliers and it may be that his original battalion was eventually amalgamated with the NF when the need arose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Regiment_(1908-1938)
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There is no medal record to be found
There are cards in the name of James (no middle name) Williams in the Northumberland Fusiliers but not identifiable. To clarify if I may - medal cards do not show a signing on date and there is no record either of any of the Northumberland Fusiliers battalions having their origin in a London battalion.
MaxD
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There is no medal record to be found
To clarify if I may - medal cards do not show a signing on date and there is no record either of any of the Northumberland Fusiliers battalions having their origin in a London battalion.
MaxD
I can't put my hands on the actual medal cards but here's my grandfather's name on the medal role Index which, as you can see shows his enlistment date
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This isn't his MIC this is his SWB card. The Ref.No. is where it appears on that Roll.
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This isn't his MIC this is his SWB card. The Ref.No. is where it appears on that Roll.
I know, as I already explained; I don't have the medal card copy, which I downloaded years ago, to hand. But it does give another avenue to explore in the hunt for the history of an ancestor.
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Thanks Rena, jim1, MaxD, and marcie dean for your responses.
Unfortunately the last relative who would have been able to confirm any facts died just before Christmas at age 103! I suspect you're right re no medal/card because he didn't serve abroad. I'll park this line of enquiry I think!
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There are medal cards just none that positively identify your man, for that you would need a service record which unfortunately doesn't exist.
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I know nothing about London but did notice that the birth certificate was issued by Camberwell, which is in the home county of Surrey.
Here is a webpage depicting the history of the many battalions raised suring WWI of the Northumberland Fusiliers and using the search term "Surrey", it shows that many NF battalions were moved to Surrey and some Battalions were raised in that County:-
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/units/278/northumberland-fusiliers
As the birth certificate shows the father was a warehouseman, he could have been stationed in the maritime county of Kent where the Northumberland Fusiliers were also stationed.
35th Battalion Territorial Forces
01.01.1917 Formed at St. Osyth, Essex from the 22nd Provisional Battalion as part of the 222nd Brigade.
Mar 1917 Moved to Ramsgate and then Margate, Kent.
27.04.1918 Became a Garrison Guard Battalion.
May 1918 Deployed to France and joined the 178th Brigade of the 59th Division.
July 1918 Title ‘Garrison Guard’ dropped and the Division engaged in various actions on the Western Front including;
The Battle of Albert, The general final advance in Artois and Flanders.
11.11.1918 Ended the war N.E. of Tournai, Belgium.
37th (Home Service) Battalion
27.04.1918 Formed at Margate and replaced the 36th Battalion in the 222nd Brigade
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A lot of good suggestion's and well intended conjecture posted but as has been suggested
geography doesn't always go hand in hand with regiment,my Gt Uncle was a geordie of
Irish decent who enlisted in Cardiff and was killed with the Welsh Regiment,there were many other reason's soldier's served in a particular regiment,I'm a member of the GWF and we have a few
member's specialising in the regiment I'd be happy to ask for information if you like.
Regard's Steve.