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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: AnnieP on Thursday 15 February 18 10:52 GMT (UK)
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Stanley Burgess was in the Merchant Navy prior to WWI as a steward. He transferred to the Royal Navy in Nov 1915 once again as a steward. After the war he was awarded the Mercantile Ribbon and Medal and also the British Medal. My question is what branch of the RN would he have joined? I've attached his service records. Would the 'Merchant Services with engagement' in the remarks column be a clue?
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Not sure what you mean by "branch"?
As you rightly say he was a steward (an officers' steward in his case) and the vessels he served in are listed. Chatham at the top is the administrative "manning division" of the Royal Navy that trained men from the eastern side of the UK, the first entry "Pembroke" is the shore establishment at Chatham where he started his service.
MaxD
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That was the wrong word to use, sorry but would he have left the Merchant Navy and then enlisted in the Royal Navy or was he just transferred over? I've written in detail about the ships and shore bases he was on but I just can't understand the procedure on enlistment. Was he still a merchant seaman aboard a RN vessel especially as he was given Mercantile medals?
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My untutored thought is that he was still a merchant seaman but serving with the Royal Navy under some sort of special arrangement. I would rather not guess and I shall ask friend Seaweed who is a whiz at matters maritime if he would look at the question.
MaxD
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Good afternoon,
Was this the same man in previous thread; http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=786801.0
John915
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Almost all Merchant Seamen were also members of the Royal Naval Reserve, or the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve.
I'm not an expert on the differences between the 2 branches.
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Back again,
This is the one I was looking for earlier, had to go and pick up OH, definitely same man. This may help Max, shows him in RN uniform with Leading rate.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=787120.0
John915
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Thank you everyone, I think I'm becoming a little obsessive about this but I'm writing a book for the family and I do want to get it right and yes John 915, I should have carried on with that thread.
Oops I see you've already replied John.
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And again,
RNR are all professional seamen from the MN and fishing fleets who formed a reserve of men who could be called on for war service with the RN. It goes back to the Naval Reserve Act 1859.
Originally seamen only , in 1862 it included officers as well with their distinctive chain rank insignia.
RNVR were founded in 1903, was a reserve of civilian volunteers. Known as the "Wavy Navy" because of the officers rank insignia of wavy stripes. By the end of WW1 they outnumbered the RNR by about 3 to 1.
The two were amalgamated in 1958.
John915
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Thanks John, I'd seen that before and passed on it!
Annie - if John's post doesn't hit the spot for your context, give seaweed a bit of time to appear above the horizon and then perhaps PM to him, I've asked him to have a look
MaxD
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I had already taken a look at this thread and felt there was nothing I could add. As already pointed out it is possible he was RNR but I cannot find any records for him. Maybe lost or destroyed.
It seems to me that he joined the RN at his own volition after serving in the MN previous to November 1915. That said, he has WW1 MN medals but I cannot find him in the 1915 on line Crew Agreements.
He may also have served prior to his RN service on a fishing vessel and may have been engaged on T124 articles. These documents are kept at the Memorial Univerity of Newfoundland, Maritime History Archive
It may be worth taking a look but somehow I cannot see a Fisherman serving as an Officers Steward. I note he is ranked as "Coder" in 1918.
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He served on numerous MS vessels from 1912 including SS Morayshire, Ayrshire, Nairnshire which I've found on the Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists sailing mainly to Sydney. His last voyage before enlisting was on SS Essex which arrived in Sydney on 3 Aug 1915 and as I've previously said he enlisted in the Royal Navy on 15 Nov 1915 at Chatham. I think I've also found a Stanley G Burgess on the UK Naval Medal & Award Rolls with the Star, Victory & British medals But am unsure if this is the same man and also would he have been awarded both RN & MN medals?
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I have found him in the 1915 crewlists. He served on ss ESSEX and previously on NAIRNSHIRE. The man you point to in the medal roll is the same man.
In my opinion he is serving in the Royal Navy - not transferred, not in an RNR capacity (although he could certainly have been a member of same), not T124 agreement. He was entitled to both Merchant Navy and RN medals.
SG Burgess signed off ss ESSEX on 20/10/1915 at Liverpool.
Regards
Hugh
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Beat me to it Hugh!
http://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/document/194807#&gid=1&pid=9
Number106 on the crew agreement
regards
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Brilliant! Thank you so much both of you, I now have the full picture. It always amazes me that whatever the question someone out there always has an answer.
Once again many thanks
Annie