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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: goodfellow01 on Thursday 15 February 18 12:33 GMT (UK)
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I am working on my g-grandmother, Catherine Daley, who married a Joseph Daley in Newcastle in 1902. There appear to be no children of the marriage until 1910, but her son’s birth certificate has no father’s name. At that point Joseph had departed the scene, although we don’t know if he died or the marriage broke up.
My question comes from Catherine’s death in 1914, which was reported by her sister, but in the certificate Catherine is shown as ‘wife of Joseph Daley’. If Joseph was dead, I would have expected her to be described as a widow. If wife and widow were not interchangeable then it implies that Joseph was still alive even if not living in the family home. After Catherine’s death her son was adopted by another sister, not by Joseph who never appears again.
Any thoughts? Thanks for your attention.
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It was probably an informal adoption by the sister. Adoption as we know it did not start until the late 1920's
What information does the marriage certificate give for Joseph. Have you found him on census prior to the marriage
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so Catherine's maiden name was Collins?
What was the name and p.o.b. of the child b 1910?
Suz
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Suz - It was Collins, yes. The son was William Henry Daley, b 26.8.1910, St Nicholas in Newcastle upon Tyne. Catherine died in August 1914. (Tracking down Catherine's birth is a whole other story - this family looks like it didn't want to register births.)
Rosie - I have found him in the 81, 91 & 1901 censuses as well as having the marriage certificate, witnessed by her sister Margaret, who was the one who informally adopted William.
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Rosie - I have found him in the 81, 91 & 1901 censuses as well as having the marriage certificate, witnessed by her sister Margaret, who was the one who informally adopted William.
Could you please give us some details so we know who we are looking for.
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(Tracking down Catherine's birth is a whole other story - this family looks like it didn't want to register births.)
What birthplace does she give on census? Sounds like an Irish name.
Have you got birthplace for her sister?
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there is a Joseph Daley b.c.1883 Newcastle on Tyne
he was a private in 181 Battallion Northumberland Fusiliers and stating he was single after the date of the marriage
Wonder if this is him??
Suz
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Have you found Catherine in 1911 - what does she say about marital status and birthplace?
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There's a Joseph Daley who died in WW1 1916 birth Felling on tyne.
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Who does Joseph name as his father when he married. What was Josephs occupation.
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Thanks to you all for taking such an interest and trying to help out with this family.
What I have so far is as follows:
Joseph Patrick Daley, born in Carlisle, Cumberland 1879 was a fitter & turner according to his marriage certificate. He appears in the 1881 census in Caldewgate, Cumberland and in the 1891 & 1901 censuses in Westgate, Newcastle upon Tyne. He married Catherine Collins on 21 June 1902 at the Register Office. His father was John Daley, a confectioner, still alive at the time of the marriage.
Catherine was the daughter of Richard Collins, and she was born around 1883. Although I haven't found a birth for her, the year is borne out by the censuses & her death certificate. She was in Gateshead in 1891 and then at another sister's house in 1901 as a visitor. I haven't been able to find her at all in the 1911 Census nor the child, William Henry Daley, who would have been less than a year old. In fact, I haven't been able to find birth certificates for Catherine or any of her siblings (all girls), which seems more than a coincidence.
There is a Joseph Daley who died in Sheffield in 1908, which could be one reason he's no longer on the scene in 1910, but it doesn't explain my original question, which was why would Catherine's death certificate state 'wife' and not 'widow'. Unless perhaps she didn't know he was dead? Could it be that simple?
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If they separated and lost contact, there would be no way of Catherine's sister knowing if Joseph was alive or dead, so she simply described her as wife of rather than widow. Death certificates are the least reliable when it some to taking the information at face value.
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If they separated and lost contact, there would be no way of Catherine's sister knowing if Joseph was alive or dead, so she simply described her as wife of rather than widow. Death certificates are the least reliable when it some to taking the information at face value.
Occam's razor! I suspect you're probably right.
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There is a Joseph Daley who died in Sheffield in 1908, which could be one reason he's no longer on the scene in 1910,
The Joseph Daley who died in Sheffield in 1908 age 28 was a Roman Catholic and buried Grave Number 4181, Section GG of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.
Other Daley's in the grave James, John Thomas, Julia and Lucy
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Deleted - answered the question myself on reply 20
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This must be the 1901 Westgate
father is a navvy but daughter Annie is boiling sweets so there is a confectionery connection
John Daley 50
Jane A 46
Annie 28
Joseph 21 fitter in ordnance ****
David 20
Rose 17
Mary J 15
John 11
James 7
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Could you give us a bit more info on Catherine please :)
You say her father is Richard - is this from the marriage - what was his occupation and who were her other sisters, how did you find out their names?
What is the name/birthplace of the sister she is visiting in 1901?
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This must be the 1901 Westgate
father is a navvy but daughter Annie is boiling sweets so there is a confectionery connection
John Daley 50
Jane A 46
Annie 28
Joseph 21 fitter in ordnance ****
David 20
Rose 17
Mary J 15
John 11
James 7
He was a sugar boiler in 1891
RG12/4193 f42 p15
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Think I have located the 1901 with Catherine as a visitor to Sarah Wealands
The link to Sarah goes back to 1881
Richard Collins 31 tea dealer
Catherine 26
Margeret 8
Sarah 6
Emily 4
All born Newcastle
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1891 down as Collin
Richard 41
Catherine 38
Margaret 18
Sarah 16
Emley 13
Catherine 7
Mary 5
Bella 3
Eliza 1
All born Newcastle bar Richard born Gateshead
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Joseph Patrick Daley, born in Carlisle, Cumberland 1879 was a fitter & turner according to his marriage certificate. He appears in the 1881 census in Caldewgate, Cumberland and in the 1891 & 1901 censuses in Westgate, Newcastle upon Tyne. He married Catherine Collins on 21 June 1902 at the Register Office. His father was John Daley, a confectioner, still alive at the time of the marriage.
What document has him as Joseph Patrick Daley :-\
DAILY, JOSEPH PATRICK mmn LATIMER
1879 Sept Quarter in CARLISLE Volume 10B Page 484
(Original requested by me now deleted as I have answered my own question)
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Sorry wrong place :-[
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There is a Joseph Daley who died in Sheffield in 1908, which could be one reason he's no longer on the scene in 1910,
The Joseph Daley who died in Sheffield in 1908 age 28 was a Roman Catholic and buried Grave Number 4181, Section GG of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.
Other Daley's in the grave James, John Thomas, Julia and Lucy
That’s great information, thanks. I can probably discount him now.
I have to say that this is the first time I’ve posed a question on here and I’m in awe of the responses. If I seem to be slow in responding I apologise - I’m in Canada and working, so my time zone is different and my time limited, but I appreciate all your help.
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Joseph Patrick Daley, born in Carlisle, Cumberland 1879 was a fitter & turner according to his marriage certificate. He appears in the 1881 census in Caldewgate, Cumberland and in the 1891 & 1901 censuses in Westgate, Newcastle upon Tyne. He married Catherine Collins on 21 June 1902 at the Register Office. His father was John Daley, a confectioner, still alive at the time of the marriage.
What document has him as Joseph Patrick Daley :-\
DAILY, JOSEPH PATRICK mmn LATIMER
1879 Sept Quarter in CARLISLE Volume 10B Page 484
(Original requested by me now deleted as I have answered my own question)
It’s also confirmed on his marriage certificate, which he signed Joseph P Daley.
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Could you give us a bit more info on Catherine please :)
You say her father is Richard - is this from the marriage - what was his occupation and who were her other sisters, how did you find out their names?
What is the name/birthplace of the sister she is visiting in 1901?
I knew Margaret’s name from my father who spent a lot of time with her in the 30’s and 40’s. He knew Catherine’s and Richard’s names from her. Both their marriage certificates confirm Richard. The sister who reported Catherine’s death was Elizabeth, who by then had married Arthur Bilbrough. And the sister she stayed with in 1901 was Sarah, as Millipede has already found.
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I can see possibilities for Richard in earlier census though born Newcastle. Still not finding a marriage or childrens birth registrations. I am wondering if they were registered under their mothers name :-\
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I can see possibilities for Richard in earlier census though born Newcastle. Still not finding a marriage or childrens birth registrations. I am wondering if they were registered under their mothers name :-\
I've been looking for birth registrations under Collins and the marriage between Richard and Catherine (the mother) but have never found anything. It's one of my biggest brick walls.
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They are certainly hiding well. I have tried tracing a few births with other surnames back to see if I can come up with anything but no luck so far.
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Clutching at straws, you could try trawling the Bishops transcripts for Newcastle
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/index?owc=9K5M-L29%3A13617901%3Fcc%3D1309819
I would look but it is nearly time to eat and relax for the evening
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Clutching at straws, you could try trawling the Bishops transcripts for Newcastle
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/index?owc=9K5M-L29%3A13617901%3Fcc%3D1309819
I would look but it is nearly time to eat and relax for the evening
That would indeed be clutching at straws. Thanks for all your help so far - I'm glad that it's not just me who can't find this lot!
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I've been searching for births for any of the Collins girls or a marriage for Richard but no luck.
As suggested they could be under the mothers name and she and Richard never married.
There's also quite a gap between Emily and Catherine where one or more children could have been born.
Definitely not just you but at least we have some census entries for them.
I can't find the parents in later census but Catherine may have died in 1893.
Wish I could find daughter Catherine and the little boy in 1911 but I can't :(
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Could be Richard in 1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSMP-GMR
I knew Margaret’s name from my father who spent a lot of time with her in the 30’s and 40’s.
What was Margaret's (married?) name
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ancestry suggests it was William McFee - marriage 1903.
I noticed that 1901 and wondered if Isabella was daughter Bella but she wasn't Collins.
Richard there is down as single not widowed but if he was boarding with strangers they may not have known his marital status.
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Perhaps he was single! We haven't found a marriage so far.
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Ah yes good point!
There's a Richard Collins death in Jan 1912 age 60 which might be him but then he would be somewhere in 1911.
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ancestry suggests it was William McFee - marriage 1903.
I noticed that 1901 and wondered if Isabella was daughter Bella but she wasn't Collins.
Richard there is down as single not widowed but if he was boarding with strangers they may not have known his marital status.
Yes, it was William McFee. 1911 has the two of them at home, married for 8 years and records no children in the marriage.
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I've been searching for births for any of the Collins girls or a marriage for Richard but no luck.
As suggested they could be under the mothers name and she and Richard never married.
There's also quite a gap between Emily and Catherine where one or more children could have been born.
Definitely not just you but at least we have some census entries for them.
I can't find the parents in later census but Catherine may have died in 1893.
Wish I could find daughter Catherine and the little boy in 1911 but I can't :(
I have that death certificate on order although the age looks to be out by a little. There was an alternative in 1891 but that turned out to be a different Catherine.
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Do let us know when you get it.
I can't see how they could have got away without registering births for all those daughters so it has to be under another name for some reason.
Catherine the "wife" is the key if only we could find her surname.
I wonder if we could find any likely candidates in 1871 for her. Richard is still unattached then.
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Trying a different tack - suppose there was another child or two born between 1877 - 1884 and they died I wonder if their death(s) were registered under Collins.
There is an Isabella Collins Sep 1882 age 0
As a later child was called Bella - long shot I know and probably won't help anyway but determined to leave no stone unturned!
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I don't know if there's anything in this, but a couple of baptisms on FamilySearch caught my eye
All Saints Newcastle
13 January 1873, Margaret Morell (born 10 December 1872)
23 March 1875, Sarah Morrell (born 4 March 1875)
Parents Richard and Catherine
There is a marriage, June qtr 1871, Newcastle
Richard Morrell, possible spouse Catherine Dowey
A birth reg, Sep 1877, Newcastle T.
Morrell, Emily
mother Dowey
But where are the Morrells on the census?
back to 1881
Richard Collins 31 tea dealer
Catherine 26
Margeret 8
Sarah 6
Emily 4
All born Newcastle
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Wow that looks interesting :o
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Checking the birth registrations there is one for Catherine Morrell Sep 1883 mothers name Dowey
bravo!
Possibly this baptism 7 Nov 1883
St Mary's Clayton St Newcastle
Catherina Morrell
parents Ric. Morrell & Catherinae Donay
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There is a Catherine Dowey age 8 in 1861 daughter of Samuel and Margaret.
With sisters called Emily, Mary, Margaret - all names she used for her own children.
And again all girls.
Possible birth Catherine Dowie Jun 1852 mothers name Hollands
Sister Mary is under Douay Dec 1850 mothers name Hollins
Sister Emily is Dowie Mar 1845 Berwick mothers name Holland
Both Margarets born Scotland, Samuel born Ireland, I knew there was an Irish link somewhere!
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The Margaret / Sarah / Emily & Catherine dates tie up, although I'm not seeing any Bella or Elizabeth Mor(r)ell births.
But I wonder where the Morrell name would have come from, assuming this could be our man? It's not one I've come across for any of Richard's ancestors (Collins & Amour), so there's no earlier family connection.
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If this is him in Newcastle in 1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5BB-WMZ
16 Bells Court
Sarah Collins Head Wid 37 ? Shop, born Scotland
Richard Collins Son Unm 21 Labourer
John Collins Son 9
William Collins Son 5
Elizabeth Collins daur 11
Isabell Collins daur 3
Children all born Newcastle
Richard's youngest sibling - possible birth reg?
March 1868 Newcastle T. 10b 99
Collins, Isabella
mother Morrel
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The Margaret / Sarah / Emily & Catherine dates tie up, although I'm not seeing any Bella or Elizabeth Mor(r)ell births.
We can perhaps add Mary
March 1886 Newcastle T. 10b 98
Morrell, Mary
mother Doury
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Well done John :)
I had tried searching family search for ..... and parents Richard & Catherine in NoT without finding those records before suggesting OP browse the PR's. Once again you have cracked it with familysearch you always seem to find things that I miss on there :)
Rosie :)
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Children all born Newcastle
Richard's youngest sibling - possible birth reg?
March 1868 Newcastle T. 10b 99
Collins, Isabella
mother Morrel
Taking Sarah Collins born Scotland the mother as Sarah Morrell there is this 1851 entry
John Morrell 46
Isabella 44
Richard 25
Ann 21
Sarah 19
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Sarah Morrall
Margaret Bell
David Grieg
William Collins
Marriage Jun 1863 Newcastle
Does that look right or a little too late? In 1861 Sarah and William already have 3 children
aged 7 - 4 - 2. Maybe William was married before, he is 8 years older than Sarah, and Richard 7 has a different mother. Or I am getting confused :-X
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I'm going to have to review that whole Collins ancestry prior to Richard. But I'm still wondering why they would have registered the R+C marriage and the daughters' births as Morell yet the census returns and the 2 daughters' marriage certs, that I have, as Collins. Some interesting family dynamics if this is correct.
Many thanks to all of you for your time and effort on this - it is very much appreciated.
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John, you did indeed crack it. I just received the birth certificate for Catherine Morrell, who you suspected was actually Catherine Daley, nee Collins, my g-grandmother, whose death triggered this thread.
The birth is in 1883. The father was Richard Morrell (cartman) - Richard Collins was also a cartman. The family lived at 39 St Nicholas' Churchyard, and when I checked the 1881 census for my Collins family, they were indeed at the same address. I think that's proof enough. Thanks again.
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Really pleased that the details match :) Well done John
Rosie
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Really pleased that the details match
Me too. Thank you for letting us know! Hope you will now be able to get to the bottom of it all.
Thanks Rosie - it was pure luck!
John