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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: butterpopcorn59 on Wednesday 21 February 18 07:46 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I’m trying to trace when my great grandfather who arrived in New Zealand from Sweden. He was born in 1841 or 1842. He was naturalised in NZ in 1869 and died in Sanson in 1914. He married Louisa Minifie in 1870. I can not find his birth certificate either. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
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According to Births, Deaths and Marriages Historical records website (BDMH) he died 17/9/1914.
1914/5209 Anderson Carl Leopold 72Y
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Is that naturalisation date correct? Where did it occur? What was his occupation?
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Looks it Twiggy :).... NZ Gazettes for 1869 state that it was the 16 April 1869, in Wellington. Occupation was a storekeeper.
Cheers
KHP
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Marriage notice http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lm5/
Death notice http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lm4/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lm6/
Was of Sanson and prior Wellington
He did have a son of the same name (in case folks stumble across him in their searches) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lm7/
Was a storekeeper
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lm8/
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Thanks KHP, I couldn't see a relevant one in the Naturalisation microfiche that's all.
So naturalisations were published in the Gazette?
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Now I see it is under ANDERSEN
ANDERSEN Carl Leopold, 26 years, (looks like) Goeteborg, Sweden, Storekeeper, Wellington.
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There is this record in the archives in Wellington:
Central filing system
From: Carl Leopold Anderson, Wellington To: Colonial Secretary Date: 11 October 1867 Subject: For naturalization
1867 1867 Department of Internal Affairs, Head Office [record group] Wgtn
My wife's great grandfather's naturalisation papers (he was Norwegian), recorded the length of time he had lived in New Zealand.
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So naturalisations were published in the Gazette?
Looks like it, not sure when they started doing it.
Cheers
KHP
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Thanks for info. I have Carl’s original naturalisation certificate as opposed to a copy which has the date on as 16th March 1869. Yes he was a storekeeper and in Wellington. Unfortunately it doesn’t have the length of time he was in NZ before this. Yes one of his sons was Named Carl Leopold Anderson too. Sorry not sure how to reply to individual comments. I’m new to this and haven’t figured it all out yet. Thanks very much.
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Welcome to the Board. :D
Just take your time, we were all newbies once, and know how it is .... before you know it, you will be zooming around the website. ;D
Cheers
KHP
PS: You can reply indiviudally by pressing the reply button, or like you did in Reply #9.
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The paperwork I referred to in my previous post wasn't the certificate - it was the application for naturalisation
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So butterpopcorn59 there may be two avenues to find his date of birth and/or his arrival year:
1 Naturalisation FILE which includes the application
2 Intention to Marry entry which may give additional hints.
Both of these are held at the Archives in Wellington.
You can post a new query on this board for a 'Look up' for these:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=508522.0
The naturalisation file reference is 1869/671 I 115
Although as Johnf04 pointed out there is another file in Archives to do with his naturalisation
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24203422
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Thanks TwiggyTree and Johnf04. Presumably if I can find the application For naturalisation also I may be able to find more info too. Thanks KHP for welcome!
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This is a bit about the town he came from, just as a bit of background.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothenburg
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Apparently there are a couple of pages relating to Carl in the NZSG collections if anyone is a member.
https://www.ancestry.com/boards/localities.oceania.newzealand.general/5021.1/mb.ashx
And more, if it helps at all, about the family
http://www.familytreecircles.com/b-57188.html
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Hi
Just looking here in Sweden for Carl without success as of yet, just need a little more to go on other than Gothenburg.
Do you know/think if he was a seaman at all.
I did find his probate which shed no light on his background unfortunately. You'll need to be a member to view it but is free to do so. It is 7 pages long:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lm9/
Ian
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Hi jamcat95,
I’m sorry I don’t know if he was a seaman. I heard through a cousin he stowed away on a boat aged 10 but I’m really doubting that considering he obtained NZ citizenship. Also he was supposedly the illegimate son of the King of Sweden which after looking into it I doubt that too. I read somewhere recently he left from Hull UK to travel by boat to NZ. I have no concrete information on his earlier life at all. So who knows maybe he was a seaman in between stowing away from Sweden and leaving Hull. Many possibilities. Thanks for your interest.
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Cheers.
If he was a seaman there is also a possibility that he may have jumped ship and in doing so changing his name. I have seen this pretty often.
Just need a parish or even parents' names.
Ian
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Oh ok thanks. That’s very interesting. Certainly a possibility. Sorry no idea of parents name. That’s the big dilemma! Or indeed the Parish. A bit of a needle in a haystack type of thing :)
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I'll see what I can dig up. Can't promise anything though.
Ian
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Butterpopcorn59 - have you seen his death printout? This may show his parents' names.
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Just throwing this into the pot.....
I searched the Petone Settlers museum who are supposed to have "primary and secondary source data relating to arrivals from the United Kingdom, parts of Europe and Australia to Wellington (Wellington only and Wellington as first port of call) between 1839-1897."
There was one person of interest: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lmc/
Equator, ship, 481 tons, Captain Sillberg, arrived via Wellington March 21st, 1859. 181 days from Gravesend.
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Just need a parish [...]
Hi Ian...
Svenska in NZ has d.o.b 26 Dec 1841 in Gustavi Domkyrko, Gbg L ... grain of salt etc :-)
Do you know/think if he was a seaman at all.
EDIT: Occupation given as Mariner, later Storekeeper
Regards
Beg
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Wow, Beg, you are an enigma!
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https://archideatest3.wordpress.com/projekt/ljusarkitektur/gustafi-domkyrka-goteborg/
Wow I love the dome painting in that church!
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Believe it or not I was geacaching in this church"s courtyard last Saturday.
Ian
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Oh wow Beg! Thanks. Amazing Ian!
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Here is this Carl Leopold Andersson's birth record:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lmf/
Ian
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Gosh Ian! Thanks so much. I shall have to get someone to translate this to English. Thankyou so much!
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Svenska in NZ has d.o.b 26 Dec 1841 in Gustavi Domkyrko, Gbg L ... grain of salt etc :-)
Hi Beg
We're joining forces again.....
If I recall correctly, you pointed out sometime ago we can't really trust the findings in this book, am I right?
Ian
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Gosh Ian! Thanks so much. I shall have to get someone to translate this to English. Thankyou so much!
Hi
I can help you with any Swedish you need help with, no problems there. I just posted it last night for you to see Beg's Carl Leopold from that book.
This may not even be him. I am now looking for his whereabouts but the Gothenburg Church Books are pretty difficult to find people.
Ian
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Ian..it’s a very good start.. yes will take time to see if it is him.. fingers crossed with more investigating let’s hope. Thank you for your help
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Hi
Can you give me the names of Carl's children please. It may come in handy.
Ian
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Hi Beg
We're joining forces again
:)
If I recall correctly, you pointed out sometime ago we can't really trust the findings in this book, am I right?
Hi Ian... the book is definitely hit and miss. More miss than hit :-)
Having said that, I suspect in this instance it's a hit because of the Memorial for Naturalisation mentioned by John in reply #7. The author Sten AMINOFF was pretty much given carte blanche at NZ Archives and the info he gives for our man is pretty specific. I suspect he's working off the Memorial.
Fingers crossed.
Am waiting with bated breath for your translation of the father's occupation... major-general?
Can you give me the names of Carl's children please. It may come in handy.
I suspect they're the following NZ birth registrations...
Year, Ref#, Surname, Child's name(s), Mother, Father
1870/21065, ANDERSON, Annie Louisa, Louisa Mary, Carl Leopold
1873/23028, ANDERSON, John, Louisa Mary, Carl Leopord,
1874/34613, ANDERSSON, Alfred, Louisa Mary, Carl Leopold
1876/07185, ANDERSON, Mary, Louisa Mary, Carl Leopold
1877/12539, ANDERSON, Edith, Louisa Mary, Carl Leopold
1878/16588, ANDERSON, Alexander, Louisa Mary, Carl Leopold
1879/15664, ANDERSON, Searl Leopold, Louisa Mary, Carl Leopold
1882/14672, ANDERSON, May, Mary Louisa, Carl Leopold, ,
1884/09544, ANDERSON, Roy, Louisa Mary, Carl Leopold
1885/10570, ANDERSON, Nellie, Louisa Mary, Carl Leopold
1886/14707, ANDERSON, Ernest Albert, Louisa Mary, Carl Leopold
1889/08422, ANDERSON, Ella Kathleen, Louisa Mary, Carl Leopold
Svenska in NZ says Carl had 9 children so some of the children may have pre-deceased him.
I think that in Svenska in NZ the "Number of children" seems to be taken from the "Number of Living Issue" found in the NZ Deaths register.
Regards
Beg
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I am having problems deciphering it Beg at the moment.
Anyway here is their marriage record:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lmg/
Ian
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Hi
This is all there is to find. It could well be him:
Here is the family from around 1860-1870 or something. They are on the right hand side and is the second family down and almost illegible. Carl Leopold is listed as missing:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lmh/
Here is Carl Leopold listed in the missing persons book. Half way down:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lmi/
Here is an explanation for the missing persons books:
https://www.arkivdigital.net/swedish-genealogy/non-existing-persons-book
Ian
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Am waiting with bated breath for your translation of the father's occupation... major-general?
Parents: Monthly Worker Börje Andersson and wife Petronella Petersson
Godparents: Wife Johanna Lundin and Unmarried Anna Olsson
"Månadstjernare" is a person who was employed by the month. "Monthly Worker" is the best I could come up with.
Ian
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Thanks all for the information. I must admit this is all very intriguing. I see I was beaten to putting up Carl’s children, thanks Beg :) Carl I think if this is him should’ve written a book! Especially interesting is the “Missing” info.. might explain a lot I think.
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I have checked for this Carl for any other records such as census and death records and there aren't any. So this Carl must have left Sweden.
Ian
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Thanks Ian. Yes that fits in
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Hello butterpopcorn59...
I think the thing to do now is to start a Wellington Archives lookup thread. If you ask for a photo of the Memorial of Naturalisation, mentioned by John in reply no.7, you can see whether or not the info your Carl gave tallies with the info found by Ian.
In your look-up thread include the following heading and link...
From: Carl Leopold Anderson, Wellington
To: Colonial Secretary
Date: 11 October 1867
Subject: For naturalization
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24203422 (https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24203422)
Hopefully in the not too distant future some kind soul visiting Wellington Archives will take a few photos of the Memorial and then email them to you.
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Another option is purchasing a printout of the 1914 death certificate for your Carl and hoping that the informant knew the names of Carl's parents. If Börje ANDERSSON and Petronella PETERSSON are listed then you're all set to begin researching your Swedish side.
Personally I'd hold off any purchasing until you sight the Memorial.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg,
I think I may have that. Attached is a photo of the document I have. I was thinking maybe the death certificate is the way to go. I’ve looked up what information could be on it. Sounds good but of course at the end was “if known” so a gamble but for $25 it’s not much to pay for maybe a definitive answer.
Regards Louisa.
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Found this photo today.. it may be Carl.. on the back says Mr Anderson so it’s either him or maybe given to him.. I do know it’s a relative.. next step is to find out what era this was taken.. only head and shoulders but the collar etc might be a clue.. collar looks almost clerical. Handsome chap if I might say so myself!
Louisa
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Hi Louisa...
Yes you're right. The reference number in your photo (67/3371) matches the reference number (1867/3371) in the Archives link I gave.
So I wonder where the 1841 birth date mentioned in Svenska in NZ comes from. The book also notes that he was a mariner prior to being a storekeeper so maybe the birth date is from one of the Swedish mariner's databases, like the Sjömanshus.
Searching for a mariner used to be a pain. Very few indexes but I don't know how it is now.
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Unless any other rootschatters have a plan B .....(pause)..... maybe a printout of the 1914 death certificate is the way to go.
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Handsome chap if I might say so myself!
Agreed ... a very handsome chap :-)
Regards
Beg
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Beg / Louisa
This letter pre-dates his naturalisation file, as it says in that note "The applicant should be informed of the correct mode of application" and is 1867.
His naturalisation was 1869 as per reply #12.
So I would still go for that Wellington Archives look-up myself.
Twiggy
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Thanks Twiggy., my son lives in Wellington will ask him...
Louisa
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Hi Twiggy...
I'll have to hand my enigma machine back cos I scoured Archway for anything resembling your 1869 reference and found nothing.
To quote Lucy .... Result: Nil :)
I'm guessing you found the reference on the fiche. I don't have it to hand but was that the entire reference. Not doubting you :) but as I understand it the I should read IA and the 115 seems to be post-1938 naturalisations.
The 1869/671 is an "obvious" year/record reference but comes up blank, even when throwing it into all of the other search boxes.
And the obvious search of Carl limited to 1869 is a bust too.
Regards
Beg
P.S Will be mightily embarrassed when someone links to the file :-)
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Beg - here is the page of the naturalisation register, with Carl's listing. When I tracked down Walter BRUNGOT, I found that his file was bound with another, and indexed under the name on the other.
John
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Index listings > from >
New Zealand Naturalisatons 1843-1981 : [Source: ancestry.com ]
Name: Carl L. ANDERSEN
Occupation : Storekeeper
Residence city : Wellington
Naturalisaton date : 16 March 1869
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Name: Carl Edward ANDERSEN
Birth : about 1843
Age : 26 years
Birthplace : Coeteborg, Sweden
Occupation : Storekeeper
Residence city : Wellington
Naturalisation date : 16 March 1869
File number : 1869 / 671
Certificate register : 1
Register page number : 115
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[Note: Exactly as written in the index listing. ]
~ Lu
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Hello John and Lucy...
Thanks for the info. I didn't realize that Archives had digitised the pre-1949 Naturalisation Register. Good to know.
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If you take the second entry (Joseph AMREIN) and enter his record # 1908/3145 into the Advanced Search on Archway he pops up no problem.
If you take the thirteenth entry (Eduard Andrew ARCHER) and enter his record # 1868/2245 into the Advanced Search on Archway he too pops up no problem (although as Edward, not Eduard).
If you take the first entry (Frank AMODEO) and enter his record # 1869/3185 into the self-same Advanced Search on Archway it reurns the dreaded "Sorry, there are no results for this search".
And the same goes for our man Carl Leopold ANDERSON (1869/671). "Sorry, there are no results for this search"
This sort of eases my mind as it means there is a disconnect between the pre-1949 Naturalisation Register and the Archway search engine.
Regarding our current search, I think the answer is in this link...
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General Inwards Correspondence to the Colonial Secretary
Record No. 1869/605-837
Open Access
This record is missing
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=21582282 (https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=21582282)
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Record numbers 1869/605 to 1869/837 are listed as missing. Obviously not all are missing as a simple search with 1869 as the record number brings up a dozen hits between 1869/605 and 1869/837. But that still leaves a couple of hundred records unaccounted for. I'm guessing our man Carl's record is one of them.
One good thing is that it could still mean that Sten AMINOFF was working off Carl's Memorial when he compiled Svenska in NZ in the late 70's. The records might have gone missing since then....anyway that's my theory :-)
Regards
Beg
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Beg - we found Walter's file by checking the names of the other people granted citizenship on the same day.... the topic is here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=774836.msg6282328#msg6282328
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Hi John...
So page 191 of Issue 22 of the 1869 NZ Gazette lists five gentlemen (see attached image).
Cross-referencing with the Naturalisation Register and Archway gives the following results...
David BLUNK
1870/3479 - Date: 15 December 1870 - Subject: Oath of allegiance and fee (£1) [naturalisation of Diedrich Blunk or David Blunk]
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24214897 (https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24214897)
Henry KURSHLIT
1869/751 - Date: 15 March 1869 - Subject: Naturalisation Memorial Oath of Henry Kurshlit
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24208127 (https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24208127)
1869/917 - Date: 3 April 1869 - Subject: Naturalisation Oath of Henry Kurshlit
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24208126 (https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24208126)
James SCMIT
1869/622 - Archway search says "Sorry, there are no results for this search"
Johannes GRAFF
1869/823 - Archway search says "Sorry, there are no results for this search"
Carl Leopold ANDERSON
1869/671 - Archway search says "Sorry, there are no results for this search"
So do you think the David BLUNK 1870(?) file and the two Henry KURSHLIT files are worth a punt?
Regards
Beg
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Beg - definitely worth checking.
John.
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Gosh all beyond and above me! Thank you..
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Hello Louisa...
In a (large-ish) nutshell ... when your Carl applied for NZ Naturalisation he was required to fill in an application form called a Memorial of Naturalisation. The form asked for his name, age, place of birth, place of residence in NZ and length of residence in NZ. Plus a referee or two saying that he's of good character.
The Memorial is unlikely to mention the 1841 date of birth found in the book Svenska in NZ (The Swedes in NZ) but we won't know for sure until the Memorial is sighted. If it does mention the 26 Dec 1841 birth-date you won't have to purchase a printout of your Carl's 1914 death certificate (hoping that his parents are mentioned by the informant and that they are the Borge and Petronella found by Ian). If there is a birth-date on the Memorial, supplied by Carl himself, it should be proof enough you're on the right track.
The Memorial should be stored at Wellington Archives as it's mentioned in the pre-1949 Naturalisations Register, a great big book which comes to us from pre-Internet days. Unfortunately the Memorial can't be found in the current Archives on-line search engine, known as Archway. The Memorial may be mis-filed. It may be lost.
John had a similar experience in the search for the Memorial of his wife's g-grandfather, Walter BRUNGOT. He (quite cleverly I reckon) found the mis-filed Memorial by checking the files of the other men naturalised on the same day as his Walter. Perhaps this mis-filing is what has happened to your Carl's file. The links in my reply (reply no.52) list the available files of the four other men naturalised the same day as your Carl. These files can be viewed at Archives NZ in Wellington.
You might want to start an Archives look-up thread asking for some kind soul to check out the linked files on his/her next visit to the Archives and see if your Carl's file is amongst them.
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To be honest, the last few posts have been a diversion :) which might give a few ideas to someone in the future searching for a lost file.
Plus I've learnt that the NZ pre-1949 Naturalisation Register has been scanned and is viewable on-line. No need to go to my local library to check the Naturalisation microfiche. Woohoo :-)
Regards
Beg
PS - if this all comes to naught you may still need to purchase a death certificate printout :-)
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Hi Beg,
Many thanks for all your informatiion.
My son lives in Wellington as luck would have it so I will ask him if he will look for me.
I shall let you know if I strike gold!
Lots of great ideas posted by you and others. Here’s hoping Ian’s detective work has answered this riddle.
I’m grateful to every one who took the time out to help me.
Thanks so much.
Louisa.
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Louisa
Don't overlook the Intention to Marry either though. ;)
Twiggy
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Thanks Twiggy