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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Chiad Fhear on Wednesday 21 February 18 14:53 GMT (UK)
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This is one for our German cousins ...
The attached Obituary mentions the ramming of a German submarine by a British Tanker for which the Captain of the Tanker was awarded the D.S.O. (Distinguished Service Order) in June 1917.
A colleague has suggested to me that German military records from the Great War may have details of this event and I would appreciate some help in finding out more.
Vielen Dank
Chiad Fhear
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The U-boat was the U 46.
https://uboat.net/boats/u46.htm
https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/3205.html
Malky
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Hi Malky
Thanks for your quick response :) However, it couldn't have been the U-46 as it wasn't even built then! Not sure if the Captain of it would even have been born :D
The date in question is 1917 - World War 1 Captain Murray died in March 1929.
Cheers
Chiad Fhear
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Hi
Browse through the years 1915-1918
I couldn't find anything
Dave
https://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/marine_1915.htm
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Bit of a specialist question. I would make a post on the WW1 forum at uboat.net.
https://uboat.net/forums/list.php?23
Alternatively, I could ask Michael Lowrey, The WW1 moderator at uboat.net to see if he has anything on this ramming.
If the above two actions do not reveal the name of the merchant vessel,I would get hold of his MN service career records from Lloyd's Captains Register available from London Metropolitan Archives.
This should tell you what vessel/s he was on board around this time.
Then a double check with the vessels logbook which should give a narrative of the incident.
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I suspect that two stories have been confused with one another. One from WW1 and the other as posted, from WW11.
Honours for the Mercantile Marine.
30437 - 18 DECEMBER 1917
..... in recognition of zeal and devotion to duty shown in carrying on the trade of the country during the War:
To be a Companion of the Distinguished Service Order.
Capt. George Badenoch Murray (Lieut., R.N.R.).
Ch. Offr. James Martin (Lieut., R.N.R.).
Malky
Strange one, I have seen the other post and it's contents.
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Good evening,
I can fi d only 4 sunk by rammimg by vessels other than RN of some sort.
U49 rammed by SS British Transport
U93 rammed by SS Brainiel
UB78 rammed by Queen Alexandra
U103? rammed by RMS Olympic
There are quite a no though sunk or missing through unknown reasons so could be one of those.
John915
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This does not answer your question, but I thought I’d still mention it:
On George Badenoch Murray’s Royal Navy service file (National Archives) only one ship is mentioned: the Baynyassa
There is enough online for this ship e.g.:
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=LoaVmYnm7T0C&dq=Baynyassa+submarine&q=Baynyassa#v=snippet&q=Baynyassa&f=false
https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?135367
But the more important one is:
“CHAPTER X - THE INTENSIVE SUBMARINE CAMPAIGN (III) - July 1917 November 1918
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In the last week of July, the Baynyassa (4,937 tons; master, Mr. G. B. Murray), the Livonia (1,879 tons; master, Mr. H. G. Orchard), and the Devona (3,779 tons; master, Mr. D. R. Murray), who had been in action already on June 20th, all turned the tables on their attackers by the accuracy of their gunfire”
Source: http://www.naval-history.net/WW1Book-MN3b.htm
Sylvia
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Just something I noticed:
The newspaper article mentions that he got his 1917 DSO for ramming a U-boot, but I can't find that anywhere else!
He seems to receive his DSO for "Honours for the Mercantile Marine"and not for "Honours for Services in Action with Enemy Submarines" like some others (see: http://www.naval-history.net/WW1NavyBritishLGDecorationszzDSO.htm).
On his "Royal Naval Reserve: Officers' Service Record" it isn't mentioned either, just the zeal and devotion bit. I would have expected something so important to have been mentioned on this record.
Sylvia
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BAYNYASSA official number 137787 was a general Cargo Ship rather than a Tanker. According to the link posted by TreeSpirit, She was in action on the last week of July but the original post by Chaid Fhear---
"The attached Obituary mentions the ramming of a German submarine by a British Tanker for which the Captain of the Tanker was awarded the D.S.O. (Distinguished Service Order) in June 1917" I cannot see this.
Flattybasher9 quotes the citation.
"30437 - 18 DECEMBER 1917
..... in recognition of zeal and devotion to duty shown in carrying on the trade of the country during the War:
To be a Companion of the Distinguished Service Order.
Capt. George Badenoch Murray (Lieut., R.N.R.)."
This would be a more realistic time scale. I think the original obituary which talks of him being in command of "Fuel Tankers" is maybe stretching journalistic licence a little too far and we should not discount the possibility of him being in command of BAYNYASSA if indeed she was involved with the "ramming". Problem is the 1917 logbooks of this vessel, which would confirm or otherwise, seem to have been lost or destroyed.
We should not overlook the fact that the "ramming" maybe newspaper talk and that Captain Murray
was awarded the DSO for sustained devotion to duty during WW1.
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That is what I came up with. There was an English built ship in 1922, which Anderson renamed in 1924 and it was used during the prohibition. It was called the Lillehorn. It ran Rum from Canada to the USA.
http://www.chiefskugaid.org/1923-33-rum-running.html
http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/m-s-lillehorn-at-dock
This is the only ship name that I personally can find with a similar name.
I actually wonder if this was "an embelished" story fed to the press by the family or friends who did not know the whole truth, similar the the Victoria Cross story a couple of months ago.
Malky
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Hi to all of you and thanks for your interest and input.
For some reason I didn't receive notification of your replies :o
Apologies too for any confusion over dates quoted :-[ "Senior Moments" ;)
The mention of the Captain ramming an enemy submarine came from a handed down family story and so, as quite rightly suggested, may be an "embellishment" in the Obituary ;)
There is a lot to consider, and investigate further, in all of the comments and I'll take them on board, in further discussions with the Captain's grandson, to see what we can establish as being as near to facts as possible.
Regards
Chiad Fhear
PS:
The date for the award of George's D.S.O. was found here:
"Second Supplement to The London Gazette" of Tuesday, the 18th of December, 1917 and "The Edinburgh Gazette" Friday, 21 December 1917
"Honours for the Mercantile Marine.
The KING has been graciously pleased to approve of the award of Honours, Decorations and Medals to the undermentioned Officers and men of the British Mercantile Marine, in recognition of zeal and devotion to duty shown in carrying on the trade of the country during the War :—
To be a Companion of the Distinguished Service Order ... Capt. George Badenoch Murray (Lieut., R.N.R.)."
I would presume any "action" would have been prior to this, e.g. July 1917
Chiad Fhear
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Well this is all very interesting and I'm astonished that my Grandfather has attracted such attention and interest over an event that took place over 100 years ago.
I vividly remember as a young boy being allowed to hold and examine my Grandfather's DSO and being told the story of the submarine action. My interest in this stems from the fact as a diver I would love, if possible, to establish the fate of the rammed submarine. Did it sink or did it limp away to fight another day.
The absence of evidence does not preclude the taking of an educated guess and I suspect that if the submarine had been sunk it would have been logged and recorded somewhere. Official records draw a blank so for me I think it more likely that the submarine managed to evade a watery grave, at least on the occasion it made contact with Capt. Murray's vessel
All pure speculation of course, and the search for documented evidence continues.
Happy hunting!
Andrew Murray
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One further thing I would like to add. I come from a military family, and as such we are not given to embellishing anecdotes of this nature. Life on the high seas during both wars was precarious and unpredictable.
My own father, a commando during WWII, was torpedoed twice in the course of his service so the ramming of a German submarine in WWI, as dramatic as it sounds today, was almost certainly regarded as the expected response by a ship's Master to an attack on his vessel and crew.
Food for thought indeed.
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Hi Andrew,
There are still so many question marks for us. Could you tell us some more of the actual details as - apparently - you have been told the full story.
1 - Could you tell us the approximate year of the event and the name of your grandfather's ship at the time?
2 - Was your grandfather the captain of said ship or was he there in another role?
3 - Was he in the Royal Navy (ie abt 1917) or the Merchant Navy (or something else?) when the event occurred?
rgds Sylvia
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Hi Sylvia,
I'm going to have to reach out to my cousins here as the DSO and supporting material was passed to that side of the family on my Grandmother's death in 1986.
What I can tell you was that the year of the incident in question was 1917 and my Grandfather was indeed Captain of his vessel at the time. I don't know the name of the ship but that may be recorded in documents that may be held by my cousins.
For the duration of the war, and to the best of my knowledge, he served in the RNR rather than the RN.
I'm sorry this is so sketchy but I'l do what I can, I'm as fascinated as everyone else is to get to the bottom of this.
Best regards,
Andrew
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Hi Andrew,
I think you are right re the RNR. The available (=online) Royal Navy documents are a bit unclear sometimes. I can see that he got his Lieutenant seniority on 24-07-1917 ("commission granted for services rendered"), but that admiralty notification occurred on 13-12-1917. The timeline seem to coincide with the story of the BAYNYASSA after all. We know that this ship was involved in gunfire during "THE INTENSIVE SUBMARINE CAMPAIGN", so who knows maybe some other minor events occurred as well. Currently it might be your best bet to look into this ship a bit more.
BTW Please don't think that we don't accept or believe that your grandfather was very heroic. His track record and DSO are 100% proof of that. Nevertheless, it is always possible that a story might have some different aspects to it. Personally I have encountered many ingrained family stories (mine and others) that were a little different from the actual facts. Additionally, many of us have seen newspaper articles that contained various errors. It would be wrong of us if we didn't question everything and this might even help us to find some helpful clues.
Sylvia
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Hi Sylvia,
That's great to hear and I think the ship may provide some some clues. I've been told by another contact who is also researching this that the Baynyassa is currently lying in shallow waters of 6m to 10m off the coast of Morocco and if that's the case I'm going to organise a trip to dive the wreck to see what's there.
We still need to find that submarine though. It won't evade us forever.
Andrew
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Good afternoon,
A list here of all u boats lost in WW1; https://www.uboat.net/wwi/fates/losses.html
John915
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@Andrew
I expect you'll be seeing something like this?:
https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2014/12/148391/discovery-of-british-ship-wrecked-off-century-ago-south-of-agadir/
Sylvia
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Could you tell us some more of the actual details ...
2 - Was your grandfather the captain of said ship or was he there in another role?
Hi Sylvia
Don't you just love it when everyone gets so involved in a topic :)
I would assume he was the Captain of the vessel as he was awarded his Master's Ticket in 1901 (copy attached)
Chiad Fhear
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@Chiad
That's a wonderful document
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I don't know how you do it @Chiad, I'm very impressed.
@Sylvia: yes, that's the wreck my colleague told me about. We're both divers so we're keen to explore this avenue in due course.
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I don't know how you do it @Chiad ...
Hi Andrew
I love a challenge and it's mainly come from many years of digging around in the tree roots and with thanks to the RootsChatters here who have NEVER failed to come up with an answer or two - or more ;)
Chiad Fhear
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I could ask Michael Lowrey, The WW1 moderator at uboat.net to see if he has anything on this ramming ...
Hi Seaweed
Michael has responded to me with this ...
Sometimes obituaries contain exaggerations. Very few U-boats were rammed by merchant ships. Based upon the information in the thread you linked to, I suspect that Murray was awarded the DSO for his handling of the steamer Baynyassa (4,937 grt, built 1915 as Nyassa) on July 25, 1917 in a firefight with a U-boat in the Atlantic.
The incident can be further researched. The next step would probably be to get a hold of Murray’s statement about the exchange with a U-boat. This should be at The National Archives, Kew in file ADM 137/3997. With the specifics on where and when from ADM 137/3997, it should be possible to identify the U-boat involved.
Chiad Fhear
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And there's more ...
George had a chequered naval career by all accounts. Having survived the sinking of his vessel S.S. "Tritonia" in December 1914, this followed:
George re-applied to the Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen in 14 February 1917 for replacement of his Masters Certificate "The Certificate having been lost or destroyed at Mediterranean, 9th January 1917, Vessel torpedoed and sunk by enemy submarine." The Application records George's last command as the S.S. "Baynesk" of London sailing from Mauritius to Marseilles from 13 December 1916 until the vessel was sunk on 9 January 1917. It also lists the "Kastalia" and "Alconda".
The S.S. "Baynesk" of London was a British cargo ship torpedoed and sunk on 9 January 1917 in the Mediterranean Sea 130 nautical miles (240 km) north by west of Alexandria, Egypt, en-route from Mauritius to Marseilles, France, with the loss of seven crew.
Chiad Fhear
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A very interesting document Chiad, well done for tracking down hard evidence that shows Captain Murray was no stranger to enemy action.
I suspect that by the time of the submarine action in July 1917 my Grandfather had rather had enough of falling victim to enemy submarines and on that day decided to take decisive action not just to protect his vessel and crew but to actively destroy an enemy. This would be in keeping with what I know of his personality and his response to threats against his person.
Newspaper articles seldom tell the full story and do contain inaccuracies and I think we all accept that. However, if the award of his DSO was for gunfire alone then he lied to his wife on his return, something that while possible I think most unlikely.
Records are important but knowledge of family history and anecdotes have a role to play here too.
To Kew....
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And while we're at it ...
I've attached the Captain's request for re-issue of his "Ticket" following the loss of the "Tritonia" :)
Chiad Fhear
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The Baynesk was sunk by U-39.
U-39 :- Fate
18 May 1918 - Interned at Cartagena, Spain after being damaged by allied escorts and aircraft that same day. Surrendered to France on 22 Mar 1919 and was broken up at Toulon in 1923..
Malky
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[The incident can be further researched. The next step would probably be to get a hold of Murray’s statement about the exchange with a U-boat. This should be at The National Archives, Kew in file ADM 137/3997. With the specifics on where and when from ADM 137/3997, it should be possible to identify the U-boat involved.[/i]
I will be at Kew on 6/3/18 if thats any use.
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As my last post
https://uboat.net/wwi/ships_hit/677.html
Malky
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Some fabulous research going on here, well done everyone.
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Ref your comments in reply 26.
"Wednesday, 25 July 1917, Baynyassa, 4,937grt, armed. Gun attack, saved by own gunfire (H/Mn)"
"NOTABLE ESCAPES :- In the last week of July, the Baynyassa (4,937 tons; master, Mr. G. B. Murray), the Livonia (1,879 tons; master, Mr. H. G. Orchard), and the Devona (3,779 tons; master, Mr. D. R. Murray), who had been in action already on June 20th, all turned the tables on their attackers by the accuracy of their gunfire, while the Beacon Grange (4,237 tons) escaped mainly through the skilful navigation of her master, Mr. W. Keslake. In all these cases decorations were awarded."
At times families do exaggerate stories, especially about bravery. In our family, when I was a child, the story was that my uncle had his left lower leg blown off by a land mine when entering Germany during WW11. There even was a piece of shrapnel to go with the story. We thought how brave, managing to survive etc. Some years later, the truth came out, and the lower leg was actually removed due to the onset of Gangrene.
Malky
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I wonder if my father lied about the scars on his back when he told me that like my Grandfather he too was torpedoed in WWII. In his case he lay wounded for days before being rescued. He bore the physical and mental scars for the rest of his life.
My family have served in the military for generations and as I said, are not given to exaggeration for lies. My comments stand, and we'll leave it at that.
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Hi all
News just in from Michael at https://uboat.net :— The action, following which George was awarded the D.S.O., is outlined in:
"Reported Destruction of Submarines" (ADM 239/26):
"July 25, 47°52'N, 11°44'W (Atlantic) Possibly slightly damaged
S.S. Baynyassa at 0600 sighted the periscope of a S/m (submarine) on port bow. Headed for S/m in order to ram and succeeded in hitting her with port bow. S/m came to surface 10 minutes later. Ship opened fire and S/m replied with two guns. Fourth shot appeared to hit S/m. Smoke boxes were burning and when smoke cleared away the S/m was seen with her forepart under water."
Map is from Google Earth
The reference in the Obituary to Captain George having "commanded fuel tankers" gave rise to the erroneous assumption :-[
Good result all round!
Chiad Fhear
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Just an update,
The document ADM137/3997 confirms that the vessel involved in the ramming was BAYNYASSA. It is inconclusive as to wether or not the Submarine was sunk.
SW
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Hi everyone
Thanks to seaweed for locating the report of the WW1 engagement involving Captain Murray's ship the S.S. "Baynyassa" and a German submarine. I have transcribed the document and make no apologies for the punctuation - or lack of it - it is as found:
British S.S. “BAYNYASSA” attacked submarine 25th July 1917.
SOURCE AND DATE
M.72092. British Consulate, Santiago de Cuba. 15.8.17.
REPORT
Letter from Consul:-
“I have the honour to enclose copies of declaration made before me, by the Master, G. B. Murray, and Chief Officer Alfred Moodie, & First Gunner, William Gobey, of the British steamship “BAYNYASSA” and having reference to the sinking of a German submarine, by the said steamship on the twentyfifth of July, in N latitude 47-52, W longitude 11-44, as already reported in my cablegram of the ninth instant.
The originals of these declarations have been forwarded to the Chief Intelligence Officer at Jamaica, who has also been advised by cablegram, and copies have been supplied to H.M. Minister at Havana.”
Statement by Master, dated 13th Aug.
“I beg to report to you that on the twentyfifth July, shortly after 6.a.m a periscope was sighted on the port bow by the chief officer, the ships head was immediately altered to port, with the intention of ramming the submarine, this we succeeded in doing as we struck the periscope with our starboard bow, the hull of the submarine was plainly visible from our deck, directly under the steamer.
About ten minutes afterwards the submarine came to the surface astern, and as I had no doubt his intention was to attack us, I ordered the gunners to open fire immediately, shortly afterwards the submarine replied with two guns his shells landing in the water well ahead of the steamer, our fourth shot hit the submarine in the fore part directly alongside his forward gun after which the shells from his after gun dropped alongside of steamer and then suddenly landed well astern of steamer, the submarine now appeared to be listing to starboard.
We used a number of smoke boxes, and after the smoke had cleared away we saw the submarine with her forepart under water and her stern in the air.
Just at this time a second periscope was reported right ahead by the lookout on the forecastle head, I did not see the second periscope myself nor did any of the officers but as it had been reported I did not return to try and pick up any of the submarine crew as I deemed it better to continue at our utmost speed and get away from this area.
In all we fired 23 rounds the action lasting about an hour the submarine fired about 30 rounds, none of which found their mark.
I am pleased to inform you that the behaviour of the crew in all departments was all that could be desired, I think special credit is due to the chief officer for his prompt action in altering the helm to ram the submarine immediately he sighted the periscope and also to the gunners for the manner in which they handled the gun when ordered to open fire.”
Extract from Statement by First Officer:-
“…….. the vessel used smoke boxes and when smoke cleared away the submarine was seen about five miles away with bow submerged and stern high out of water ……..”
Statement by 1st Gunner:-
“That on the morning of July 25th about six twenty a.m. he saw astern of the vessel a submarine about half a mile astern.
That following instructions from the master he opened fire and at the fourth shot struck the submarine alongside of the forward gun firing was continued until I saw that the shots were falling short the submarine being out of range.
The submarine opened fire on our vessel with both her guns but shortly after the engagement began the forward gun was put out of action and the last we saw of the submarine he had his bow well under water the crew standing in the water practically up to their armpits. We fired in all 23 rounds and the submarine about thirty rounds in all.”
Finally, I have discovered that all three mentioned in the report were decorated:-
SECOND SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE OF TUESDAY 18th DECEMBER 1917.
HONOURS FOR THE MERCANTILE MARINE.
The KING, has been graciously pleased to approve of the award of Honours, Decorations and Medals to the undermentioned Officers and men of the British Mercantile Marine, in recognition of zeal and devotion to duty shown in carrying on the trade of the country during the War: —
To be a Companion of the Distinguished Service Order. Capt. George Badenoch Murray (Lieut., R.N.R.).
To receive the Distinguished Service Cross. Ch. Offr. Alfred Henderson Moodie
To receive the Distinguished Medal. Sea. William Gobey."
Thanks to all RootsChatters involved ;) A great result.
Chiad Fhear