RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: bullocks on Friday 23 February 18 17:03 GMT (UK)
-
Hi I'm looking for assistance with this birth record as I got two interpretations for it:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:J4J5-9HJ
First I was told that Christiane Marcus born 1855 had a mother who was also Christiane Marcus who's late father (the first Christiane) was Matthias Marcus
Last night someone read it again as I was looking into something else and she said this:
"Vor- und Zuname der Mutter" which is "first and last name of the mother". So all names in here are female names.
Also it seems that due to the small column size the author decided to shorten "Christiane" which he spelled out in the birthcolumn in full to the shorter version "Xtiane" which is a bit unusual but was common practice back then.
if you follow the row to the right you will also see the list of the witnesses, which are mainly family members. Both male and Female end with Marcus, so Marcus is the last name of the family.
two columns to the left you can see a column that just says "ehelich" or "unehelich", so in conclusion this kid was born out of wedlock. that probably explains why one father had three children with different mothers. as only his first child was by his wife, the other two had to add not only the name of the childs mother but also the name of her actual husband.
So Wilhelm Dieschka and Christiane Marcus had a child, while Christiane was married to Matthias Marcus. Quite a story."
So basically I'd like opinions on which you all think is the right scenario. Thanks!
-
Hi,
Is it possible for you to upload an image? I can't access the Family Search website...
Karen
-
Hi,
Is it possible for you to upload an image? I can't access the Family Search website...
Karen
Done
-
Anyone alive? ;D
-
Just about. ;D
The scan is very faint - I'm having trouble deciphering anything at all. Are we talking about the 8th person in the list?
-
Just about. ;D
The scan is very faint - I'm having trouble deciphering anything at all. Are we talking about the 8th person in the list?
It's #113
-
Last night someone read it again as I was looking into something else and she said this:
"Vor- und Zuname der Mutter" which is "first and last name of the mother". So all names in here are female names.
It does indeed say "First and last name of mother". However, for several names in that column, a male name has been added directly under the female name. This is the case for #113.
Also it seems that due to the small column size the author decided to shorten "Christiane" which he spelled out in the birthcolumn in full to the shorter version "Xtiane" which is a bit unusual but was common practice back then.
It is still done today in some cases. One example which is still very much in use - love it or hate it - is Xmas for Christmas.
I have now had time to look at everything on my bigger screen, but I'm none the wiser, I'm afraid. Without zoom, it's too small and faint. If I zoom in, everything becomes so unclear that I can't read it.
Maybe someone else here will be able to read it better or improve the scan using software (I can't, I'm afraid).
Sorry I couldn't be of more help!
Karen
-
Last night someone read it again as I was looking into something else and she said this:
"Vor- und Zuname der Mutter" which is "first and last name of the mother". So all names in here are female names.
It does indeed say "First and last name of mother". However, for several names in that column, a male name has been added directly under the female name. This is the case for #113.
Also it seems that due to the small column size the author decided to shorten "Christiane" which he spelled out in the birthcolumn in full to the shorter version "Xtiane" which is a bit unusual but was common practice back then.
It is still done today in some cases. One example which is still very much in use - love it or hate it - is Xmas for Christmas.
I have now had time to look at everything on my bigger screen, but I'm none the wiser, I'm afraid. Without zoom, it's too small and faint. If I zoom in, everything becomes so unclear that I can't read it.
Maybe someone else here will be able to read it better or improve the scan using software (I can't, I'm afraid).
Sorry I couldn't be of more help!
Karen
It's okay! Do you agree that it looks like Wilhelm Dieschka is the father tho as it looks like he even fathered 3 kids in a row?
I'm mostly stumped about the Matthias Marcus it says under "Xtiane" idk if he's married to her or her father...
-
I can't make out enough to say... :(
Can you read what the column heading is (the column with Wilhelm's name in)? That might help. I can't help but see "Mutter" in it, too. Could be wrong, though.
-
I can't make out enough to say... :(
Can you read what the column heading is (the column with Wilhelm's name in)? That might help. I can't help but see "Mutter" in it, too. Could be wrong, though.
I think it's the fathers. At least they look like male names in there
-
They are male names, but the column heading looks like more than just "First and last name of father". It could shed a bit more light on things if we could clarify that.
Any chance of a good scan of the column heading?
-
I think that these 3 entries have nothing to do with each other.
Wilhelm Dieschka (Djeschka) has no connection to Xtiane Marcus or Xtiane Nakoinz.
In the column "Vor- Zunamen der Mutter" i read
Xtiane Marcus des weiland Mathias Marcus ? Tochter (daughter of the deceased Mathias Marcus)
Xtiane Nakoinz des kol. (Kolonisten) Xtian Nakoinz Tochter (daughter of the colonist Xtian Nakoinz)
The apostrophes are just replacement characters meaning no entry
The column headings read left to right.
No. Zunamen und Stand des Vaters
Taufname des Kindes
Tag und Stunde des Geburts, Tag - Stunde
Ob ehelich oder unehelich
Vor- Zunamen und Stand des Vaters
Vor- Zunamen der Mutter
Wohnung der Eltern
Tag der Taufe
Name des Predigers der die Taufe verrichtet
Namen der Taufzeugen
Dave
-
I think that these 3 entries have nothing to do with each other.
Wilhelm Dieschka (Djeschka) has no connection to Xtiane Marcus or Xtiane Nakoinz.
In the column "Vor- Zunamen der Mutter" i read
Xtiane Marcus des weiland Mathias Marcus ? Tochter (daughter of the deceased Mathias Marcus)
Xtiane Nakoinz des kol. (Kolonisten) Xtian Nakoinz Tochter (daughter of the colonist Xtian Nakoinz)
The apostrophes are just replacement characters meaning no entry
The column headings read left to right.
No. Zunamen und Stand des Vaters
Taufname des Kindes
Tag und Stunde des Geburts, Tag - Stunde
Ob ehelich oder unehelich
Vor- Zunamen und Stand des Vaters
Vor- Zunamen der Mutter
Wohnung der Eltern
Tag der Taufe
Name des Predigers der die Taufe verrichtet
Namen der Taufzeugen
Dave
Ahh thanks. So it matches what the first person told me then. Back to not knowing the father though:(
-
I think that these 3 entries have nothing to do with each other.
Wilhelm Dieschka (Djeschka) has no connection to Xtiane Marcus or Xtiane Nakoinz.
In the column "Vor- Zunamen der Mutter" i read
Xtiane Marcus des weiland Mathias Marcus ? Tochter (daughter of the deceased Mathias Marcus)
Xtiane Nakoinz des kol. (Kolonisten) Xtian Nakoinz Tochter (daughter of the colonist Xtian Nakoinz)
The apostrophes are just replacement characters meaning no entry
The column headings read left to right.
No. Zunamen und Stand des Vaters
Taufname des Kindes
Tag und Stunde des Geburts, Tag - Stunde
Ob ehelich oder unehelich
Vor- Zunamen und Stand des Vaters
Vor- Zunamen der Mutter
Wohnung der Eltern
Tag der Taufe
Name des Predigers der die Taufe verrichtet
Namen der Taufzeugen
Dave
Thanks, Dave! I just couldn't get it clear enough on my 'pooter to read it.
The ditto marks/apostrophes threw me a bit, too. ::)
Bit of a shame - finding out who the father was will probably be impossible...
Best regards,
Karen
-
I think that these 3 entries have nothing to do with each other.
Wilhelm Dieschka (Djeschka) has no connection to Xtiane Marcus or Xtiane Nakoinz.
In the column "Vor- Zunamen der Mutter" i read
Xtiane Marcus des weiland Mathias Marcus ? Tochter (daughter of the deceased Mathias Marcus)
Xtiane Nakoinz des kol. (Kolonisten) Xtian Nakoinz Tochter (daughter of the colonist Xtian Nakoinz)
The apostrophes are just replacement characters meaning no entry
The column headings read left to right.
No. Zunamen und Stand des Vaters
Taufname des Kindes
Tag und Stunde des Geburts, Tag - Stunde
Ob ehelich oder unehelich
Vor- Zunamen und Stand des Vaters
Vor- Zunamen der Mutter
Wohnung der Eltern
Tag der Taufe
Name des Predigers der die Taufe verrichtet
Namen der Taufzeugen
Dave
Is it possible one of the witnesses Henriette Marcus is this one says the father is "Mathes Marcus" - possibly a variant of Matthias? Around the same age the first Christiane would be born so maybe a sister?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J4VH-KVG
Also this Marianne Marcus has a father Christian Marcus born around the same time both of them are witnesses so possible cousin/uncle
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J4JT-PBH
I feel like a detective
-
Yes, Mathes is a variant form of Matthias
You could be right with your assumptions.
had another look at the place of residence for Xtiane Marcus (Wohnung der Eltern)
She lived in Burg-Kauper, a lower Sorbian settlement.
Dave
-
Yes, Mathes is a variant form of Matthias
You could be right with your assumptions.
had another look at the place of residence for Xtiane Marcus (Wohnung der Eltern)
She lived in Burg-Kauper, a lower Sorbian settlement.
Dave
Thanks
-
Have you got an Ancestry subscription?
I did a filter on
Marcus, Burg Spreewald, 1825 - 1853
had 100 hits.
Btw, Mathias profession was Krüger. Inn Keeper or landlord
-
Have you got an Ancestry subscription?
I did a filter on
Marcus, Burg Spreewald, 1825 - 1853
had 100 hits.
Btw, Mathias profession was Krüger. Inn Keeper or landlord
Mine just expired but I know I did a search for a Christiane Marcus with those years and didn't have any luck. Actually I'm just reading up on "Sorbs" as I didn't even know what they were. Very interesting.
-
I have the hits in a doc (20 pages)
I´ll send it as PM if you like
Dave
-
I have the hits in a doc (20 pages)
I´ll send it as PM if you like
Dave
Sure, thanks!
-
I meant Email ;D
give me your mail address
-
I meant Email ;D
give me your mail address
PM'd
-
Btw where were you able to find Matthias' profession? May sound silly but could he originally been from another area if he was a "landlord". I'm not sure what a landlord all entailed back then just because "Marcus" surname doesn't sound Sorbian :D
EDIT: I did read in 1200 German farmers, merchants, and craftsmen settled there and mixed in with them so maybe that's why