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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: mantharobertson on Sunday 25 February 18 12:03 GMT (UK)
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Help!
I am searching for the Birth of George Ross b abt 1860. I have the following info but am struggling to locate him...
Father: James Ross (Violinist/Musician)
Mother: Agnes Ross nee Skimming/Cumming (I believe it to be Cumming but it says Skimming on a couple documents)
Born: abt 1860 in Saltcoats, Ayrshire (as per 1881, 1891, 1901 & 1911 census) however 1881 census says POB Glasgow, Lanarkshire.
I am also trying to find his brother 'Fallin Ross' age 19 on the 1881 census, he's listed as a 'showman' residing at 60 Rose St, Govan with his parents and George. I can find no trace at all of him... I assume the name Fallin is maybe a misprint... although it's clear on the written return.
This is driving me round the bend and keeping me awake!
Thanks in anticipation.
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Hi not found anything on George or his brother but have found a marriage between James Ross and Agnes Cumming in 1864 in Calton Glasgow and a possible death for Agnes in 1891 Calton Glasgow
Could George and his brother be the sons of Agnes but not James
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Hiya,
Yes I have their marriage and Agnes' death... there is only one thing that threw be out which is on Agnes' death entry it seems to say George is her 'stepson' although she is listed on all his documents.
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Couldn't find a birth for a George to a Agnes and the only one I could find to a James was born in Peterhead
Stepson would indicate he was not Agnes son and possibly not James maybe that of a sibling
On the death and wedding certificate does it menition previous marriage for either James or Agnes as she would have been 36 when they married
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Yes! James Ross is a widower on their marriage entry! I hadn't actually looked up the entry! Just marriage and death, it seems Agnes was also a widow. :o
So how do I find them? Do I assume they were Agnes' or James? James' surely of George lists himself as stepson.
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I would research Agnes and James parents and siblings you may find George living with one of them in census hopefully giving his birth name you could also try and find James and Agnes in the census as well before ther marriage
If you get stuck put the names of their parents and where and when James and Agnes were born someone will find them
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Have you looked at this possible 1871 census entry for James and Agnes:
James Ross 44 fiddler b. Glasgow
Agnes Cummings Ross 43 b. Glasgow
George Knox 14 Boarder message boy b. Saltcoats Ayrshire
William Ross 8 son b. Glasgow (could this be Fallin?)
Helen Park 50 boarder b. Glasgow
Address: 115 High St Glasgow/Central
Monica
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Struggling to find things still with this new info.
Wondering if this could be an entry for George Knox in 1861:
Amelia Wright 62 milliner b. Greenock
Margaret Wright 26 daughter milliner b. Liverpool (can't see her marital status from the transcript)
George Knox 2 son to Margaret, b. Saltcoats
Address: 52 Cowgate 1 Builies Ct St Giles Edinburgh
Monica
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Have you looked at this possible 1871 census entry for James and Agnes:
James Ross 44 fiddler b. Glasgow
Agnes Cummings Ross 43 b. Glasgow
George Knox 14 Boarder message boy b. Saltcoats Ayrshire
William Ross 8 son b. Glasgow (could this be Fallin?)
Helen Park 50 boarder b. Glasgow
Address: 115 High St Glasgow/Central
Monica
Yes! i just found this myself... I can still not find his birth under the name Knox... this is the right family as everything I have lists James Ross as a violinist/musician... so fiddler would be in keeping. I am wondering if Fallin is a misprint of William as it seems they match in age/DOB.
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With William, if we assume he is James' son from a first marriage, there is a birth of a William to a James R and a Margaret Fish in the Clyde area of Glasgow on 14 Nov 1862. There is a possible death for Margaret in 1863. That year, a Margaret Ross/Fish aged 25 died in the High Church area of Glasgow. Can't tell from just the index which way round the names are for this margaret (married v. maiden name). You would need to view the image for this.
The marriage for the James Ross and Margaret Fish we are looking at took place in Edinburgh in 1861. You have James's parents details from his marriage and death so it should be straightforward to check if you want to what parents show on this 1861 marriage entry.
Monica
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Nope! Forget that...I think.
From 1861, I found this entry:
James Rosa (as transcribed on a/try) 35, lodger, musician b Glasgow
Jane Rosa 31 wife lodger b. Glasgow
Charles Ross son 4 months b. Glasgow
Address: 157 Bridgegate, Glasgow/ Clyde
There are 4 births showing for a Charles born 1860/1 in the Glasgow area. They are not the ones in Hutchesonton or Bridgeton as these show on Family Search and you can check parents' details, so it potential points to Clyde (where we have the above census entry) or Govan. As luck would continue to have it, the Clyde and Govan entries do not show on FS so the only way of checking the parents is via the original image.
Monica
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There is two death in the Clyde area of Glasgow in 1861:
Janet Ross/Sloan aged 31
Charles Ross, mothers maiden name Sloan, aged under 1 year.
Jane and Janet can be interchangeable, see www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Jane.html
Monica
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Thanks Monica... I will have a delve into that soon... and let you know. I have credits on my Scotlandspeople account so will search those entries out And look at the original images. Fingers crossed!
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Nope! Forget that...I think.
From 1861, I found this entry:
James Rosa (as transcribed on a/try) 35, lodger, musician b Glasgow
Jane Rosa 31 wife lodger b. Glasgow
Charles Ross son 4 months b. Glasgow
Address: 157 Bridgegate, Glasgow/ Clyde
There are 4 births showing for a Charles born 1860/1 in the Glasgow area. They are not the ones in Hutchesonton or Bridgeton as these show on Family Search and you can check parents' details, so it potential points to Clyde (where we have the above census entry) or Govan. As luck would continue to have it, the Clyde and Govan entries do not show on FS so the only way of checking the parents is via the original image.
Monica
Yes... all correct.. it is Ross, the births for Charles is correct for the Clyde one.
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There is two death in the Clyde area of Glasgow in 1861:
Janet Ross/Sloan aged 31
Charles Ross, mothers maiden name Sloan, aged under 1 year.
Jane and Janet can be interchangeable, see www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Jane.html
Monica
Found both deaths, they match up with James Ross and being a musician. However I have not been able to find a marriage of James Ross and Jane/Janet Sloan. Any ideas?
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Have you tried England with Jane being born in Liverpool
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Have you tried England with Jane being born in Liverpool
She wasn't the one born in Liverpool though was she? wasn't that the woman we thought might be George's mum in the Edinburgh census.
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Have you tried England with Jane being born in Liverpool
She wasn't the one born in Liverpool though was she? wasn't that the woman we thought might be George's mum in the Edinburgh census.
Sorry so it was
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Amelia and Margaret Wright, together with likely husband John Wright show back in Scotland for 1841. No other Wright children on the listing. From memory, Margaret showed as aged 10 so maybe born a little earlier that showing on the 1861 census entry in Edinburgh.
Struggled to find them so far in 1851.
Monica
Added: From 1841 - all 3 showing as born outside the county:
John Wright 35 plasterer journeyman
Amelia Wright 35
Margt Wright 10
Address: Main Street, Gorbals Lanarkshire
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However I have not been able to find a marriage of James Ross and Jane/Janet Sloan. Any ideas?
You'll find them in the Old Parish Registers, as they were married before the introduction of civil registration in 1855:
James Ross and Janet Sloane, 6 Aug 1845, Glasgow.
I think this must be them in the 1851 census:
145 Trongate Street, St Mary's or Tron
James Ross, head, married, 24, master musician, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Jean (sic) Ross, wife, married, 23, domestic duties, Glasgow Lanarkshire
Elizabeth Mouet, visitor, unmarried, 20, fruit dealer, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Margaret Mouet, visitor, unmarried, 23, fruit dealer, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Ruth
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Goodness, from your details Ruth, James and Jane were likely married 15 years before the arrival of their son Charles (they could have been early births/deaths pre 1855) and he only lived a few months. Sad :-\
Monica
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However I have not been able to find a marriage of James Ross and Jane/Janet Sloan. Any ideas?
You'll find them in the Old Parish Registers, as they were married before the introduction of civil registration in 1855:
James Ross and Janet Sloane, 6 Aug 1845, Glasgow.
I think this must be them in the 1851 census:
145 Trongate Street, St Mary's or Tron
James Ross, head, married, 24, master musician, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Jean (sic) Ross, wife, married, 23, domestic duties, Glasgow Lanarkshire
Elizabeth Mouet, visitor, unmarried, 20, fruit dealer, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Margaret Mouet, visitor, unmarried, 23, fruit dealer, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Ruth
Thanks Ruth... will have a look into it.
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I haven’t quite pieced everything together yet, but I think you were on the right lines with Margaret Fish, Monica.
So, here’s what I have:
James Ross married Janet Sloane on 6 Aug 1845 in Glasgow. As we know, Janet Sloan/Ross died in 1861, along with her infant son, Charles.
James Ross then marries Margaret Fish in Edinburgh on 3 Sep 1861 - he is noted as aged 33, musician and a widower. Margaret is also noted as a widow, aged 24, a hawker of caps.
William Ross is born to James Ross and Margaret Fish in November 1862 in Glasgow. Margaret Fish/Ross died in 1863 in Glasgow.
I can’t obviously find a marriage for Margaret Fish prior to her marriage to James Ross, but she did have an illegitimate son - George Fish - the birth was registered in Ardrossan, Ayrshire on 13 Sep 1858, by Amelia Hislop, Margaret’s mother. The family lived in Saltcoats.
Amelia Hislop is the same Amelia Wright that you’ve found with the infant George Knox in Edinburgh in 1861. I think we have to assume that George’s father was a Knox, although I can’t find any evidence that Margaret ever married him.
Back to Amelia Hislop - on Margaret Fish’s marriage registration in 1861, her parents are listed as John Fish, plasterer and Amelia Fish ms Hislop. However, the plasterer was almost certainly John Wright (as you’ve found on the 1841 census in Glasgow), Amelia’s second husband. Her first husband, and almost certainly Margaret’s father, was George Fish, who she married in 1819 in Greenock, Renfrewshire.
An Amelia Wright (other names Hislop and Fish) died in 1869 in Langholm, Dumfriesshire.
As I say, I don’t think I’ve quite got all of the pieces together yet, but it looks like neither George Ross nor William Ross were Agnes Cumming’s children, both were Margaret Fish’s.
What a tangled web! :o
Ruth
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Wow!! Totally blown away!! :o :o :o
I am amazed by how you have got all this! I am still so much a beginner... don't think I would have sussed this on my own! Thank you!
I will have a look for the original documents with regards to it all and see what I can find out. I've got a busy few days ahead but I will try and get a bit of time to delve in.
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Yeah! Well done Ruth for piecing all that together!!
Monica
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An Amelia Wright (other names Hislop and Fish) died in 1869 in Langholm, Dumfriesshire.
Ruth
Hopefully from Amelia's death reg you can match her parents to this potential birth entry for her:
Emilia Hislop
birth: 21 December 1799
christening: 29 December 1799
WEST OR OLD PARISH, GREENOCK, RENFREW, SCOTLAND
father: William Hislop and mother: Margaret Reid
Monica
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Just adding further details to what we have. Putting George Fish and Amelia Hislop at the right time for Margaret's birth in Liverpool is this likely entry for a sister:
Jane Hislop Fish
Christening Date (Original) 7 Jun 1831 at St Peters, Liverpool, Lancashire
Birthplace: South Mason St
Father's Name George Fish
Mother's Name Amelia
Monica
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wow... can you give me lessons... you two are amazing! I spoke to my mum and auntie last night... George was their Great Grandfather so they are very interested in his story!