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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: GGYD on Monday 26 February 18 16:44 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I hope someone can help.
I'm trying to research my Great Grandfathers brother, Joseph Brown.
I want to see if had any military service, problem is, i cannot locate him.
Here is what i know about the family.
Joseph's Mum and Dad...
William Brown, born around 1843 Co Fermanhaga 1901 census living at Tennent St Belfast
Elizabeth Brown, nee Hand born around 1851, still living at Tennent St on the 1911 census, William had died. Married in 1870.
Sisters Alice, sarah, mary, Martha
My Great Grandfather was William Robert Brown born 1880 he was in the Army at the time so not on the census.
On my G Grandfathers service record, it lists all his sisters and one brother, Joseph, i cant find a record of his birth or annything.
so any help in finding Joseph will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
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So you're looking for a Joseph, born When??
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I think you're lloking for
Birth results for Joseph Brown from 1875 to 1885
Displaying results 1 - 98 of 98. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lne/
If you have any idea of Where, you can narrow them down by list on Left
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William Brown, born around 1843 Co Fermanhaga 1901 census living at Tennent St Belfast....
...and here is the Link to it.
They were Church of Ireland. Born Co Fermanagh.
So, if Joseph was too, and Registered, it would be in one of these Districts
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Tennent_Street/950136/
SHOWS
3 CHILDREN. BORN IN Co Londonderry
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Tennent_Street/950136/
MAYBE JOSEPH WAS TOO??
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DISTRICTS
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Hello,
Just got back from work to a whole host of replies, thank you all.
All I know of Joseph is literally that his name is on my G GF's service record, my GGF was born in Derry, Londonderry, 1880,_joined the Army in 1900, so Joseph I'd say could have been born anywhere between William and Elizabeth getting married in 1870 and 1880 ish as he's not on the 1901 census, its a shame the birth index doesn't give a maiden name, then you'd have it if 'Hand' was the mothers maiden name.
Oh, his father William was ex RIC, there is nothing on his record about his children.
Thank you all again for your time, hopefully someone can find something
Cheers
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Birth results for Joseph Brown from 1875 to 1885
Displaying results 1 - 98 of 98. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lne/
You can narrow them down by list on Left...and look for siblings!
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Hello,
Just got back from work to a whole host of replies, thank you all.
All I know of Joseph is literally that his name is on my G GF's service record, my GGF was born in Derry, Londonderry, 1880,_joined the Army in 1900, so Joseph I'd say could have been born anywhere between William and Elizabeth getting married in 1870 and 1880 ish as he's not on the 1901 census, its a shame the birth index doesn't give a maiden name, then you'd have it if 'Hand' was the mothers maiden name.
Oh, his father William was ex RIC, there is nothing on his record about his children.
Thank you all again for your time, hopefully someone can find something
Cheers
Birth registrations do!!
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Here's the family in 1901 census (it helps if you post links to information already found) and one important detail you omitted was that father was in R.IC.-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Tennent_Street/950136
My Great Grandfather was William Robert Brown born 1880
William Brown (mother Hand) born 31 Dec. 1879
a brother John Joseph Browne born 7 Nov.1883 at Castlerock-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02716/1999704.pdf
Added- mother's maiden name does show in GRONI's database which is where I first searched
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Here's the family in 1901 census (it helps if you post links to information already found) and one important detail you omitted was that father was in R.IC.-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Tennent_Street/950136
My Great Grandfather was William Robert Brown born 1880
William Brown (mother Hand) born 31 Dec. 1879
a brother John Joseph Browne born 7 Nov.1883 at Castlerock-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02716/1999704.pdf
Added- mother's maiden name does show in GRONI's database which is where I first searched
It was the omission of where the children were born that caught my eye when I had to go looking for them on Census!
Plus their Religion...
No clue given as to where Joseph could have been born.
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Here's the family in 1901 census (it helps if you post links to information already found) and one important detail you omitted was that father was in R.IC.-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Tennent_Street/950136
My Great Grandfather was William Robert Brown born 1880
William Brown (mother Hand) born 31 Dec. 1879
a brother John Joseph Browne born 7 Nov.1883 at Castlerock-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02716/1999704.pdf
Added- mother's maiden name does show in GRONI's database which is where I first searched
I am most grateful to you for this, and I stand chastised, my apologies for the RIC omission, I thought of it too late and also didn't think to link the census etc, every day is a learning curve.
So, its 'John' Joseph Browne, with an E?
Born 1883, where is he on the 1901 census at such a young age, Army do you think?
Thank you so much again for all of your help
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He was about 18 in 1901 so could have been anywhere really. I did have a look for possible death before 1901 without finding a suitable match but you might wasn't to do so more thoroughly in case I missed something and perhaps carry the search forward-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
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He was about 18 in 1901 so could have been anywhere really. I did have a look for possible death before 1901 without finding a suitable match but you might wasn't to do so more thoroughly in case I missed something and perhaps carry the search forward-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
That's why one needs the clues from Census etc to search for him on Civil Reg or in Census!!
Religion, Birthplace, Age etc.....
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I used Brown* as surname and John as first name also. I did not select Londonderry as birthplace as that doesn't always pick up ones listed as Derry.
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Thank you aghadowey for your input.
And thank you hallmark, I get the point, I should have included the census as a link, I had written it down that I'd used the census, I didn't completely ommit it!! Sometimes things come to you later on like the RIC thing, I feel like a naughty school boy being told off!
But thank you anyway for all your efforts, they are appreciated.
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Thank you aghadowey for your input.
And thank you hallmark, I get the point, I should have included the census as a link, I had written it down that I'd used the census, I didn't completely ommit it!! Sometimes things come to you later on like the RIC thing, I feel like a naughty school boy being told off!
But thank you anyway for all your efforts, they are appreciated.
We are only trying to help.
If you are looking for someone else on Census, then you need to use all the clues you have.
Others reading this thread will see how important these clues are and it might help them find kin!
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I know, and you've been a great help, don't get me wrong.
As I said, a learning curve for me when I look for other Kin, just felt like I'd been told off that's all, nothing personnel.
You've found the chap I was looking for, and I'm most greatful.
Was the fathers occupation on the birth record that was looked up, ie RIC, and that's why that was important?
Seriously, your time and help are greatly appreciated.
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Was the fathers occupation on the birth record that was looked up, ie RIC, and that's why that was important?
Did you not look at the scanned image of the birth certificate for John Joseph Browne that I posted the link to? Father's occupation clearly written as policeman.
Regarding the importance of father's occupation in the census- in this case he was an R.I.C. pensioner born in Fermanagh with wife born Belfast. He wouldn't have been posted in his home county and after marriage also not in wife's county. Also, chances are family could have moved around between various postings (as in this case where family were living in Castlerock). Then, when you start looking for births you need to widen the search more than other occupations such as farmer. When parents have common names or mother's surname isn't known then father's occupation is very useful to verify or rule out findings.
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Thank you again, I couldn't get the link up as I'm on my mobile, I'll get to a PC today and look it up.
Thanks for all the useful hints and tips for next time, greatly appreciated
Thank you all for your time and input.
Next search for me, find him in 1901!
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Just looking at clues on Marriage Cert....
Link: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1870/11380/8178552.pdf
John Brown might be a sibling, have you looked for a Marriage for him? Might get you the homeplace.
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Now that you've found John Joseph Browne, do you think i should start a new post in regard to finding him on the 1901 and 1911 Census?
I've just spent 2 hours on looking for him on Ancestry and FindMyPast to no avail, all countries, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England!
I've more than likely missed something obvious, that's where i hope the experts can help.
If so, which heading shall i put it under?
Thank you again for your time and help.
PS, thank you Hallmark, the John Brown on the marriage may be Williams brother, but not the JB i'm looking for, may look into that another time, cheers anyway
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Don't start a new thread you'll only get asked questions already answered in this one.
You said his name is on his brother's service record, is it just his name?
On my grandfather's record there are notes beside his brother's names, an (E)for enlisted
If he had enlisted by 1901 or by 1911 and was on a base in Ireland he will only be recorded by his initials.
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Hello, thanks for your reply.
On his service record it lists his Dad, Mother, all his sisters from the census, and one brother who is down as Joseph, not John Joseph. All the brothers and sisters have (y) next to their names.
He enlisted in 1900, so for all we know his brother may have died before the census came out
Thank you again
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It was so long since I looked at the army service records I have for 3 of the family I needed to have another look and now I think the (E) simply stands for Elder and (Y) for younger. I hadn't compared the lists of brothers between the three records before but it's clear now. I had assumed the E stood for enlisted because the eldest brother had been in the army and there is no Ys on my grandfathers but looking at the record for one of the younger brothers the Es and Ys are there next to each brother.
Doesn't help you find John Joseph of course.
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Still interesting though. Thank you.
He could have gone overseas, if he's down as just Joseph on my GGF service record, then he could be using both John or Joseph, spelling Brown with or without an 'e' on the end!
Nightmare!
I'll have another look tomorrow, but its proving fruitless so far.
I do hope someone can help please
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Joseph Brown witnessed his father's death certificate in 1909 (found death date, 6th June 1909 on finding death notice in newspaper). His own address at time was 297 ...
posibly Ardenlee Avenue, but not quite clear?
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;D ;D
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Ardenlee Avenue perhaps?
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That was my thought too.
Meant to also add, William is buried at City Cemetery - with 4 Browns in total in plot, including a Margaret Brown of 82 Tennent Street, who died aged 18 in 1891.
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Good find scotmum :)
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Not there on 1911 Census.. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lnp/
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Ok, could be coincidence, but a Joseph Brown married a Sarah Heasley on 2nd January 1908. His address at time was 270 Tennent Street (William's was 230 on death). Father's name William. One of the witnesses was a Sarah Brown.
He was a...rivitter??? So, possibly Riveter at shipyard, unless anyone can see a better transcription of the squiggles.
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Yes it does look like that.
I read it as Knitter and Printer too ::)
I can’t see any children with mmn Heasley but it is such a popular name, it is difficult.
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Sorry for late response, been working late.
Thank you everyone for your contributions, and your time is greatly appreciated.
It is interesting that a Joseph Brown also lives on Tennent St, the annoying thing is he may go by John, or Joseph! And I cannot see him on any census_Eng, Ire, Scot or Wal! Could be out to sea maybe.
Brown family plot is interesting, thank you for that information.
The hunt for John/Joseph/John Joseph continues!
All of your time is greatly appreciated
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If he was in Army thn maybe check for Army records??
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I have been, Joseph and John Browns in abundance! Nightmare
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That was my thought too.
Meant to also add, William is buried at City Cemetery - with 4 Browns in total in plot, including a Margaret Brown of 82 Tennent Street, who died aged 18 in 1891.
Birth of Margaret Brown - another sister
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03210/2177164.pdf
And her death
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1891/06074/4732156.pdf
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I have found him :)
Sailing 19th September 1909 on SS California from Londonderry
Joseph and Sarah Brown both 26 yrs - he is a Rivetter :D
Relative Mrs Brown, mother, 230 Tenant Street Belfast
His place of birth Castlerock
Going to brother in law James Maddock ? 31 Thompson Street Schenectady
Just to keep up the standard- the writing is awful ;)
Ellis Island site. Libertyellusfoundation.org.
I just wondered if they emigrated... and they did.
Added
I forgot the records are on FS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9T3-P339-L?i=199&cc=1368704
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James Maddock and Lizzie Heasley marriage 1892
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1892/10632/5873833.pdf
1910 census - The Maddocks in Schenectady
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M59X-XHT
But I can’t see Joseph and Sarah. :-\
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I can't thank you enough Heywood!
What a great piece of research!
You've found him. :D
And it was Sarah and Joseph who were married with riviter as the trade!
Amazing, all involved, a huge THANK YOU! :D
Especially Heywood, great work!
I've not got 'world' on my Ancestry, how can I go about trying to find Joseph and Sarah in America?
I spoke to my Dad about this last night, and he said there were rumours in the family that someone went to America and was in WW1??? Could it be Joseph?? Looks likely, I've no idea where to start!
You're all great
Thank you
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It has been a concerted effort. Scotmum put us on the ‘rivetter’ trail :)
Family Search has US censuses - that is where I found the Maddocks. I have looked for Joseph and Sarah to no avail.
I would now post on USA board and reference this thread but especially the post with the information.
There may be obituaries etc.
All good wishes
Heywood :)
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Hold off on U.S. topic, please. Think I found Joseph & Sarah in U.S. records :D
1915 N.Y. State Census- Schenectady
Joseph Brown age 28, born Ireland, boilermaker, alien; wife Sarah Brown, 28, Ireland, housekeeper; daughter Hazel A. Brown, 4, US.
1920 Census- 2069 East Victoria St., Philadelphia, Penna.
Joseph A. Brown, 33, Ireland, to US 1910, naturalized, chipper & hanker- ship yard
wife Sarah Brown, 32, Ireland
daughter Hazel A. Brown, 9, NY
Note: Joseph's middle initial transcribed as 'A' but doesn't look like 'A' for Hazel's middle name
Naturalization Petition: Joseph Brown, 2069 East Victoria St. Philadelphia, ship caulker, born 7 Nov.1885 Castlerock Ireland, wife Sarah born 6 Sept.1886, child Hazel born 29 Sept.1910 NY. A George Brown one of the witnesses.
Declaration of Intention- 6 May 1919 Joseph Brown- born 7 Nov.1885 Castel Rock Ireland, arrived US 1909 on 'California' NY, last foreign residence- Belfast Ireland, assistant foreman, 226 VanVranken Ave. Schenctady NY, dark complexion, height- 5' 9 1/2", weight- 190 lbs, black hair, brown eyes, wife Sarah
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That’s fantastic, aghadowey :)
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Not finished ;)
1930 Census- Ridley, Delaware, Penna.
Joseph H. Brown, 43, married age 22, Northern Ireland, to US 1911, steel assembler- steel place
Sara H. Brown, 41, married age 19, Northern Ireland, to US 1911
Hazel A. Brown, 19, NY, bookkeeper- newspaper
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It’s like Christmas this aghadowey, but what is best is that with a name like Joseph Brown, we can still be sure because of all the added information.
I am delighted and it’s not even my family. ;)
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It is Christmas! And a white one as its just starting to snow ha ha. :D
This is brilliant, supurb!!
You've all made my day!
Happy as Larry! :D :D :D
Would there have been a reason for him putting his year of birth as 1885 instead of 1883? And the H in both their middle names? I know other people in my family added names.
After work I'm going to sit and do a time line of Joseph, so its clearer to me.
I still think it odd that only yesterday before I read this my Dad saying about a family member going to America! Weird!
Do you think he did join the Army, as my Dad said he thinks the person who went to the US was in WW1?
I can't say thank you enough, to all of you on this topic.
Amazing job :)
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Think we were all thrilled to finally track down Joseph but a bit more re: WWI-
WWI Draft Registration card-
Joseph Brown born 7 Nov 1885, address 2069 E Victoria Philadelphia, wife Sarah
Can't see any sign that he actually served in WWI yet.
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Wow, what is a draft registration card?
Thank you again
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He was drafted into the Military....?
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Wow, so defiantly in the military then! How can you find out if he actually served?
Sorry, thought every man may have received a draft, so it actually meant he served in the US Army Navy or Marines.
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Not if he was a conscientious objector!!
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There were certain requirements for men to register and these cards containing their details are what can be found. However, not all actually ended up doing military service. Lots online but here's an overview-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_Act_of_1917
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I've put a post on the Great war forum with regards to Joseph, with all the wonderful information you've found on him.
I cannot thank you all enough for your time and efforts on this task.
Its been a great journey, and I'm so pleased you have found him!
Any more information would be greatly appreciated also.
I think I've said thank you a million times now, you all deserve a lot more.
Thank you x 100'000!! :D
So pleased, you've no idea :D
Take care all
GGYD
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So everyone knows, I've also put a post on the USA side of things
Cheers