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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Mollie Maloy Hosto on Wednesday 28 February 18 21:35 GMT (UK)
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Annie Matilda Lye Sherwood 1853 • Bedale, Yorkshire, England Died18 DEC 1937 • Auckland, New Zealand
Na Junia (June Lye born18 JUN 1885 • Otautau, Southland, Southland, New Zealand
Orif Lye..OCTOBER 1886 • Otautau, Southland, Southland, New Zealand
Annie Matilda Lye born 20 FEB 1888 • Otautau, Southland, Southland, New Zealand
William Roy Lye born 27 JAN 1889 • Otautau, Southland, Southland, New Zealand
Samuel Lye.. born 24 MAY 1890 • Otautau, Southland, Southland, New Zealand
Children and mother both were adopted by Robert and Jemina Cupples in Oct 1898 .. Am trying to find children father and when Annie Matilda Sherwood came to N.Z. fron England
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The birth for Hugh Cupples Lye lists no father recorded:
1892/16519 Lye Hugh Cupples Annie Matilda NR
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This is an interesting birth entry for Samuel perhaps?
1984/121347 Cupples Samuel Lye NR Robert
Mother is not recorded, but father is?
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The same for William
1948/68110 Cupples William Roy Cupples Lye NR Robert
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Now here is a confusing twist, the birth of Annie Matilda (junior):
1948/68093 Cupples Annie Matilda Cupples Lye Jemima Jane Robert
Mother is listed as Jemima Jane?
Do we have the correct family here? Am I missing something perhaps (totally possible!)?
EDIT: This is as OP states - adopted by Jemima and Robert - d'uh!
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Orif's birth:
1947/109173 Cupples Orif Cupples Lye NR Robert
Na Junia's birth:
1984/125769 Cupples Na Junia Lye Jemima Jane Robert
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So regarding the real father, hmmmm .... my understanding is that under the Adult Adoption Act in NZ that only the person concerned is allowed to access their records; and that a birth certificate issued for the said person will always be the post adoption one.
Anyone else had first hand experience?
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Might any 'Intention to Marry' records ever list both the birth and adoptive parents? Or marriage register entry?
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Would Annie (senior)'s funeral director entry contain previous marriages/relationships?
Or those of the children, their fathers?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lo6/
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Hello Mollie Maloy Hosto ... welcome to RootsChat. :)
Just for starters, I am adding the link to the Probate file of Robert CUPPLES because as well as containing his Will > which names his natural and adopted children > it also contains a copy of his New Zealand Death Certificate, which somewhat oddly in my view ???, gives as his "living issue" as .... 7 males ... and 5 females (that includes those who were adopted) :
So, in effect, it is indicated, that Robert is the "birth" father of all of these children.
However, this may totally incorrect. The informant to Robert's death was the undertaker - at the date of Robert's Will (and codicil to same) 1908, his wife Jemima was apparently living in New South Wales, Australia.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89K6-83WW?i=196&cc=1865481
~ Lu
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Lu,
A little strange that Annie Matilda Sherwood is listed as 'housekeeper' and not daughter, if she too, as OP states was adopted?
Twiggy
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Might any 'Intention to Marry' records ever list both the birth and adoptive parents?
An "Intention to Marry" notice (as pointed out on previous occasions) will only record the name of a parent or guardian on the occasion that that person is giving permission for a minor in their care, to marry.
[Permission was usually required from just one party. ]
Link to "Intention to Marry" notices for reference.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714246.0
~ Lu
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Hi Twiggy
I agree ...the "housekeeper" label is odd (given what we've been told to date). So there's room for lots more investigation. ;D
~ Lu
PS: Perhaps "adopted" - as it relates to Annie M. SHERWOOD senior - may mean that as well as her children being legally adopted, Annie (the mother) was also taken care of by Mr and Mrs CUPPLES (e.g. they provided employment and accommodation for her ? )
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The NZ Death Index shows that Annie (senior) retained her former surname.
1937 - SHERWOOD - Annie Matilda - 84 years
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Children and mother both were adopted by Robert and Jemina Cupples in Oct 1898 .. Am trying to find children father and when Annie Matilda Sherwood came to N.Z. fron England
Hi MMHosto
Just wanted to check ...
* Do you have some form of documentation from > October 1898 > regarding the adoption of Annie Matilda and her children ??
* Where does the date (in particular) come from ?
~ Lu
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Just for background information ... the Obituary for Robert CUPPLES (d. 1911) :
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OSWCC19110228.2.29
~ Lu
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Hi Mollie Maloy Hosto
I just went in search of any family trees for CUPPLES, and came across yours. ;)
I see you have Annie SHERWOOD > aged 27 years > (with her father James, Ag. Lab) residing at Wantage - Berkshire in 1881 census ??
So effectively this means Annie was not in NZ until say mid-1881 at the earliest.
No luck as yet in finding her means of travel to NZ.
~ Lu
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Hi again Mollie Maloy Hosto
I would just like to ask whether the children of Annie Matilda SHERWOOD may have possibly had Chinese ancestry ? [Obviously though, not from their English side of family. ]
~ Lu
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Hi MMHosto
I see you have recorded on your tree, Robert CUPPLES and Annie Matilda SHERWOOD as the parents of the aforementioned adopted children. ???
Just curious (again) ;D about why you have come to that conclusion (in view of the fact that you're now seeking the "birth" father (fathers). ?
Would be great too if you could share any other relevant information with us. :)
[Saves us looking up a lot of extraneous info which can be very time consuming. ]
~ Lu
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From what I can see, Robert CUPPLES (b. Antrim, Ireland c. 1839), wife Jemima and one infant son, arrived in NZ c. 1863. First NZ-born child in 1866.
* Do we know when Jemima CUPPLES and (presumably) some or all of, her children departed New Zealand for Australia ??
* Did Annie SHERWOOD step in as housekeeper to Robert CUPPLES before or after Mrs CUPPLES' departure to Australia ??
~ Lu
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Just adding also, the birth and death registrations for the infant born to Annie Matilda in 1892.
Birth
1892 - LYE - Hugh Cupples
Mother: Annie Matilda
Father : N/R (not recorded)
Birth registered at Riverton.
Death - NZ Birth Index online
1892 - LYE - Hugh Cupples - aged 6 weeks
Burial at Otautau Old Cemetery
Indexed as > CUPPLES - Hugh Lye - 28 July 1892
[Source: Some info taken from your tree MMH. ]
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[Not necessarily relevant to the search here, but brief obituary (January 1917) for Mrs. J. J. (paper has "J. G.") CUPPLES, wife of late Robert CUPPLES. ]
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/125934524?searchTerm=Cupples&searchLimits=l-decade=191|||l-year=1917|||l-month=1
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A little more background about Robert Cupples and further to reply #15..........
An even more detailed obituary:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ST19110228.2.47?end_date=31-12-1912&page=2&phrase=2&query=robert+cupples&start_date=01-01-1910
Another one:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ST19110303.2.4?end_date=31-12-1912&page=2&phrase=2&query=robert+cupples&start_date=01-01-1910
A little more about his life:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OW19110308.2.199?end_date=31-12-1912&page=7&phrase=2&query=robert+cupples&start_date=01-01-1910
A snippet about the sale of his farm:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AG19110301.2.14?end_date=31-12-1912&page=5&phrase=2&query=robert+cupples&start_date=01-01-1910
Estate information:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TC19111216.2.7?end_date=31-12-1912&phrase=2&query=robert+cupples&start_date=01-01-1910
Minniehaha.
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Hello again Mollie Maloy Hosto
Here is a link to the obituary of Alexander (Alex) CUPPLES, the s/o of Robert and Jemima Jane CUPPLES who sadly died aged 34 at Melbourne, Australia on 1 September 1910.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/128188563?searchTerm=alexander%20cupples&searchLimits=l-decade=191|||l-year=1910
Odd ??? Or not ? .... His father, Robert CUPPLES of Broadway, New York, USA . ???
Edited to add: Death notices Alexander CUPPLES
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15182048?searchTerm=alexander%20cupples&searchLimits=l-decade=191|||l-year=1910
~ Lu
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Hello Mollie Maloy Hosto ... welcome to RootsChat. :)
Just for starters, I am adding the link to the Probate file of Robert CUPPLES because as well as containing his Will > which names his natural and adopted children > it also contains a copy of his New Zealand Death Certificate, which somewhat oddly in my view ???, gives as his "living issue" as .... 7 males ... and 5 females (that includes those who were adopted) :
So, in effect, it is indicated, that Robert is the "birth" father of all of these children.
~ Lu
It is my understanding from personal experience that once a child is legally adopted they become the "issue" of the adoptive parent.
There is no facility on a death registration for a FD to state birth or adopted only the number of issues.
Cheers Janette
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Maybe surplus to requirements and perhaps some repetition. If so, my apologies.......
Death notice of Jemima Jane [1916]………
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/221957858?searchTerm=%22robert%20cupples%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=robert+cupples|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1910-01-01|||dateTo|||sortby
Another short obituary……
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/221978087?searchTerm=%22robert%20cupples%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=robert+cupples|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1910-01-01|||dateTo|||sortby
Marriage of Henry John Hamilton Cupples [1912]……
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/175225423?searchTerm=%22robert%20cupples%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=robert+cupples|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1910-01-01|||dateTo|||sortby
Minniehaha.
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Came across this old link**......
http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/cupples/171/
From reply #5…..
Na Junia's birth:
1984/125769 Cupples Na Junia Lye Jemima Jane Robert
**Maybe still contactable?
Added:Actual date of birth, 18.6.1885.
Minniehaha.
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Information was great got a lot of good infor. This is one messed up family. as much as i know she wasnt married to any chines. she was born in England would like to know when she came to NZ . I would like to see what was writ ten in her obituary. Was she a cupples in Ireland and Robert moved her and her kids to NZ. then an adopted her. But why was she his servant . was Roberts wife sick. I have copies of her being adopted by Robert
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Hello Mollie
We are still endeavouring to find out just when and by what means, Annie SHERWOOD came to be in New Zealand. Please don't think we have overlooked your initial question. ;)
Yes, a lot of incidental information has been added to the thread, but that's often helpful to our searching - sometimes the smallest snippet can provide a vital clue.
Was she a cupples in Ireland and Robert moved her and her kids to NZ. then an adopted her. But why was she his servant . was Roberts wife sick.
Annie SHERWOOD's children were all born in New Zealand as far as we can tell - between 1885 and 1892.
Robert CUPPLES married in Ireland (1861 ?) - to Jemima Jane ROBINSON. She was still his legal wife at the time of his death in New Zealand in 1911 - although she had moved with some of her children to live in Australia. Robert and Jemima had one son born in Ireland (Thomas Hugh - 1862) with the remainder born in New Zealand after they arrived here in 1863. [Annie SHERWOOD was apparently still living in England in 1881 (at Berkshire.]
Robert CUPPLES, as we have learned from his obituary, was a man of means and could obviously afford to employ staff. Can find no evidence that his wife was "sick" ... perhaps her removal to Australia was because the relationship with her husband had broken down ??
We don't know yet when Jemima moved to Australia ... nor do we know or when Annie SHERWOOD became Robert's "housekeeper". Neither do we know if there was "relationship" between Annie and Robert.
I have copies of her being adopted by Robert
* Are you able to post to this thread, the copies you have relating to the adoption by Robert, please.
~ Lu
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Mrs CUPPLES and children to Australia :
The following looks to be Jemima CUPPLES (wife of Robert), arriving with some of her children into Melbourne, Australia in 1894.
Ship : "Rotomahama" .. from the Port of Bluff, NZ - destined for Melbourne, Australia, via Hobart, Tasmania.
Embarked at Port of Bluff :
Mrs CUPPLES - 53 years [bc 1841
Miss CUPPLES - 26 years
Miss CUPPLES - 24 years
Mr CUPPLES - 22 years
Mr CUPPLES - 18 years
Miss CUPPLES - 13 years
Nationality : British
Arrived at Melbourne on 28 April 1894 .
~ Lu
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Would Annie (senior)'s funeral director entry contain previous marriages/relationships?
Or those of the children, their fathers?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lo6/
Contact for funeral directors.....
http://www.morrisons.co.nz/Pages/display/8
Minniehaha.
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Contact for funeral directors.....
http://www.morrisons.co.nz/Pages/display/8
Minniehaha.
If you decide to contact Morrisons may I suggest you use their email address in the link and not the contact form,
Cheers Janette
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Edited........
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 28 February 18 23:19 GMT (UK) »
Quote
"The NZ Death Index shows that Annie (senior) retained her former surname.
1937 - SHERWOOD - Annie Matilda - 84 years"
NOTE-
Death notice [1937] for Annie CUPPLES-
"Wife of the late R. Cupples"......
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19371218.2.5?end_date=31-12-1937&phrase=0&query=annie+cupples&start_date=01-12-1937&title=ALG%2CAS%2CDSC%2CKWE%2CNZH%2CNZ%2CTO%2CPWT%2CROTWKG
Minniehaha.
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Mollie, I've had to remove the last message, you shouldn't post your password to any account on a public forum.
You can attach images here, when you post a message look for "attachments and other options" below the message box.
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hhere is some of the adoption
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hhere is some of the adoption
Annie Matilda Cupples Lye Original Birth Cert .pdf (260.6 kB - downloaded 8 times.)
Annie Matilda Cupples Lye Original Birth Cert (1).pdf (260.6 kB - downloaded 5 times.)
Jemima Jane Cupples Death Certificate.pdf (260.67 kB - downloaded 4 times.)
Orif Cupples Lye Original Birth Cert (1).pdf (84.6 kB - downloaded 6 times.)
Perhaps these belongs here.......
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=788885.27
If so, Mollie Maloy Hosto could you please attach documents to your Annie Matilda Sherwood topic. :)
Minniehaha.
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Perhaps these belongs here.......
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=788885.27
If so, Mollie Maloy Hosto could you please attach documents to your Annie Matilda Sherwood topic. :)
Minniehaha.
I have notified the mods
Cheers Janette
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Thanks Janette........ :)
Minniehaha.
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Relocated as requested
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Hello Mollie
Robert CUPPLES, as we have learned from his obituary, was a man of means and could obviously afford to employ staff. Can find no evidence that his wife was "sick" ... perhaps her removal to Australia was because the relationship with her husband had broken down ??
Have now found, (see earlier post), that Jemima CUPPLES travelled to Australia (Melbourne), with a number of her children, arriving in April 1894.
It appears to have been a permanent move for all of them.
There was an "interesting notice" placed in a local newspaper by Robert CUPPLES in October 1884.
Perhaps this signalled the breakdown of his relationship with his wife Jemima ??
[Note: Na Junia was born to Annie SHERWOOD 18 June 1885 - some eight months after the date of this notice ?? ]
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WSTAR18841015.2.16.3
NOTICE : I will not be responsible for any debts contracted by my wife or any members of my family, from this date.
Robert CUPPLES - Strathvale - Otautau Dated: 13 October 1884
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But it was almost ten years later that Jemima and children left for Australia ?? Perhaps Robert and Jemima had an amicable arrangement ??
Possibly during those 10 years, they lived separately ? Mother and her daughters were reported in newspapers fundraising for their church and other activities and they seemed to have remained in the same community.
~ Lu