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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Nick93 on Thursday 01 March 18 02:01 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone, I was wondering if anyone could answer a question for me. My third great grandfather was illegitimate. We know this because the man listed as his father on his baptism record can't have been married to his mother, long story short he was a soldier and not from around there, and married another woman in India two years after, listed as a bachelor.
However, having seen his baptism record, I was surprised to note that there was no reference to his illegitimacy on it, I thought baptisms back in that day and age (1850s), were usually pretty blunt about the marital state of the parents.
I did note, though, there's a sizable mark, it looks like a cross, it looks like put below the baptism record for my ancestor.
I saw one blog post that said a cross was sometimes used to gently identify an illegitimate child rather than call them a b*stard, etc. But it looks like it was mostly put in front of the record, at least in this one parish in Tipperary where the author seemed to be focused (mine was in Cavan though).
http://fanningfamilyhistory.com/index.php/2017/02/05/priests-comments-on-baptism-and-marriage-records-co-tipperary-ireland/
Then again, I've also heard some Catholic priests didn't even bother to record a child's illegitimacy, it just depended on the time and place.
Here's a link to the image. I apologize for it being slightly blurry... I didn't take it, a third party I knew a while ago who had a Find My Past account did. At the time I didn't know about the potential significance of the cross mark on the record.
https://i.imgur.com/cYW7Lut.jpg
I wasn't sure if anyone else has seen similar, and knows what it means, if it was a symbol for illegitimacy across Ireland. Also, his name, Samuel, is underlined twice. I don't know if that's significant, if all the names on the register are maybe underlined. But if anyone has an FindMyPast account and can view that page, it would be really nice. His name was Samuel Blyth (Blythe on this record) baptized in November of 1854 in the Church of St. Mary's Belturbet, County Cavan.
Thanks so much for reading all of this, I appreciate the input.
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Don't see it.. https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634813#page/29/mode/1up
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0815
the RC Registers are online, free
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Oh, now that's interesting, thanks Hallmark. It looks like this one has the exact same info on it though. I understand it says "Sept Samuelem filium of Samuel Blythe and Fanny McEvitie. James McCauley Mary Kinsella" Samuel son of Samuel Blythe and Fanny McEvitie, James McCaley and Mary Kinsella as the godparents.
Is the one you posted perhaps a transcript? Thanks for that, by the way, that's a helpful source, transcript or not, that site.
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Maybe you are talking about St Mary's Drumlane??
http://www.drumlane.ie/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=352&cntnt01origid=15&cntnt01dateformat=%25d%20-%20%25m%20-%20%25Y&cntnt01returnid=60
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Oh, now that's interesting, thanks Hallmark. It looks like this one has the exact same info on it though. I understand it says "Sept Samuelem filium of Samuel Blythe and Fanny McEvitie. James McCauley Mary Kinsella" Samuel son of Samuel Blythe and Fanny McEvitie, James McCaley and Mary Kinsella as the godparents.
Is the one you posted perhaps a transcript? Thanks for that, by the way, that's a helpful source, transcript or not, that site.
What register is that??
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Oh, yes, Staghall, that's it! Are their transcripts online too?
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What register is that??
Oh, I think it's the one in Staghall, like you suggested. Sorry for the confusion.
Someone else sent me that small screenshot some months ago, zoomed in on the relevant page. But I'm pretty sure it's the St. Mary's in Staghall.
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Oh, yes, Staghall, that's it! Are their transcripts online too?
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0831
if it's there then look for others like it....
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Oh, yes, Staghall, that's it! Are their transcripts online too?
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0831
if it's there then look for others like it....
Great, thank you, looking through it now. Do you know anything about the possible significance of that cross mark on the page?
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Compare it with others.....
often Priests had their ways of noting things, maybe he marked it if someone applied when getting married, or were illegit etc...
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Using Filter... there are 3 pages and I don't see it there either. Pity whoever sent it to you didn't give proper details!
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Is the one you posted perhaps a transcript? Thanks for that, by the way, that's a helpful source, transcript or not, that site.
The links hallmark is giving you is to the registers transcribed by FindMyPast.
Ancestry has also transcribed them but using their free search (I don't have a sub) I can't get a result for a Samuel Blythe (or variations) any where close to the one you are looking for.
The cross on that record looks to me to be added later, there are lots of little marks put on by people/priests looking up records at a later time, but as hallmark said you need to see the full page and surrounding pages and to do that you need to find the record again on NLI site.
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Without being able to find whatever Register you were sent..
"Sept Samuelem filium of ..."
is probably...
"Bapt Samuelem filium of ..."
again one would need to view other entries in whatever Register it is.
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the man listed as his father on his baptism record can't have been married to his mother, long story short he was a soldier and not from around there, and married another woman in India two years after, listed as a bachelor.
Thanks so much for reading all of this, I appreciate the input.
Why not??
Maybe he married another woman in India two years after, pretending to be a bachelor. ??
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Hey, thank you both. Well, one of the other reasons we know about his illegitimacy is that it was known by the family that Samuel Blyth Sr. was an officer in the army, and the family knew a few of the places he had been stationed, and sure enough a few years ago we found record of a young officer, Samuel Blyth, stationed in Belturbet and a few of the other places mentioned in the family's oral history at the right times. His son Sam Jr. though was a shoemaker, possibly for the army. It seems Sam Jr. wasn't in any contact at all with his father, and the family didn't know much about him other than where he was stationed before India, at which point I assume he ended contact with the mother and totally left the picture.
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Well you have a record from some Church somewhere.... no harm in checking for Marriages at whatever Church it is.
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I've been looking through, and sadly still unable to find Samuel's baptism, however, I've found two other baptisms looking through the books with X's near them. I can't really make them out, and I assume they're probably in Latin, which I can't read anyway, but does there seem to be a recurrent factor with these two?
I wonder if Samuel's name being underlined and then the X looking like it was added later came from the priest finding out at a later date and trying to squeeze it in.
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Oh, sorry, here's the other one, could only post one at a time.
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Oh, by the way, is it possible the Xs are a signature substitute for an illiterate person? Or did no one but the priest sign baptism registers?
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Priest wrote them
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Priest wrote them
Ah, thank you. So the marks must refer to something specific?
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You'd need whatever register it is to see what Priest wrote, marked etc....
Did he write Illegit or something similar or not ?? etc
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You'd need whatever register it is to see what Priest wrote, marked etc....
Did he write Illegit or something similar or not ?? etc
Ah, I see. Well, back a page, I posted two other baptism transcripts from the same register (I think the same register) with crosses by them. I can't read them myself, but can you see anything out of the ordinary mentioned? Is that how you mean?
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I've seen clergy mark an X (or other symbol) to indicate person has died but from what you've posted difficult to say what the x means. Could even have been a mark made when counting up something in register.
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Some priests wrote fee they received, and no fee for those who paid nothing on the Baptism Register.
This point came up on WDYTYA Co Mayo
I heard of a priest in Co Kilkenny who charged more money not write illeg beside baptism detail.
Perhaps the couple pretended to be married. Unusual for illeg child to use father's surname.
Good look with your search.
Jfch
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Not that unusual for illegitimate child to be known by father's surname.
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Annagh; County of Cavan; Diocese of Kilmore. Baptisms, Sep. 1854 to Jan. 1855
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634815#page/24/mode/1up
Debra :)