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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: George Clegg on Friday 02 March 18 22:07 GMT (UK)
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Good Evening everyone
I'm hoping some sort of photo analyst may be able to identify the location of this funeral. Is it in the UK (Nottingham? Preston?) or France? Date?
Nothing on back of photo.
Should any forum member be able to enhance this picture I'd also be very grateful
Thanks for your help!!
L23579 Samuel George Barratt (1899-1934) (my 1st cousin) Royal Field Artillery is the gun carriage lead driver.
Service Detail
Details declared at attestation in Nottingham 2 May 1915:
· Declared Address: 13 Shepherd St, Wolverhampton
· Declared Age as at 2 May 1915: 19 years 9 months (Actual Age 16 years 4 months)
· Declared occupation: Town Carter
2nd May 1915 7th January 1916 Home Service
12th August 1915 Posted as a Driver with 188 (CLXXXVIII) Brigade Royal Field Artillery (who were raised in Nottingham).
21st August 1915 Posted as a Driver with B Battery 152 (CLII) (Nottingham) Brigade Royal Field Artillery who were assigned to 34th Division.
8th January 1916 7th June 1916 France (151 days)
On 3 January 1916 embarkation orders arrived; by 15 January the 34th Division had crossed the Channel and was concentrated at La Crosse, east of St Omer.
The Division then moved South East towards Beaumont Hamel where they began to prepare for the Somme offensive in July. The Division then remained on the Western Front for the remainder of the war.
May 1916 - George contracts an illness and is returned home in June
8th June 1916 14th May 1918 Home Service
8th June 1916 Admitted War Hospital Bath. (Discharge date not known).
30th Aug 1916 His mother Teresa sends letter with Birth Certificate to the War Department declaring him under age.
23 Sep 1916 - Transferred to Class W Army Reserve (Under age) Posted 50th Reserve Brigade
1 Feb 1917 18th Birthday
1st Feb 2 Feb - 346 Brigade RFA Doncaster - Absent (late back from leave) 7 days detention.
26th April 1918 Preston - Absent (late back from leave) - 7 days Field Punishment No 2 and deducted 21 days pay.
15th May 1918 4th October 1918 France (143 days)
15th April 1918 Posted as a Driver C Battery 290 (CCXC) Brigade Royal Field Artillery who were assigned to 58th (2/1st London) Division.
12th June 1918 Lance Bombadier
26th August 1918 Promoted Sergeant
2nd October 1918 No 9 General Hospital Wound Right Leg (No 9 General Hospital located champ de courses on the outskirts of Rouen)
58th Division were involved in the following actions during the period of Georges attachment to the Division.
o The Battle of Villers-Bretonneux (24-25 April)
o The Battle of Amiens (8-11 August)
o The Battle of Albert (22-23 August) (a phase of the 2nd Battle of the Somme)
o The Second Battle of Bapaume (31 August 1 September) (a phase of the 2nd Battle of the Somme)
o The Battle of Epehy (18 September) (a phase of the Battle of the Hindenburg Line)
It could be that George was wounded in the Battle of Epehy or just after and then evacuated via the casualty evacuation chain to No 9 General Hospital on the 2nd October.
5th October 1918 31st February 1920 Home Service
24th February 1918 Transferred to Class Z Army Reserve
27th January 1919 Protection Certificate issued from Bagthorpe War Hospital Nottingham.
It may be that as George enlisted in Nottingham (underage!) then he was transferred to the Nottingham War Hospital on return to the UK from France.
31st March 1920 Discharge
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I don't think there's enough scenery to make a positive statement, but my feeling is that the houses and lamp post on the left look British.
I tried zooming in on the soldiers and saw no medals or medal ribbons so this would fit with a funeral before c1920.
Would one expect a lead driver to have at least one rank stripe? If so, the earliest date would (going by the service record) be June 1918.
Putting the information together, I would expect the funeral to have been in Britain between October 1918 and March 1920.
Hope this helps
Philip
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Hi George and welcome to Rootschat...for a better chance at both ID and restoration work, a scan at a resolution of 300dpi and saved as a .jpeg file would bring the best results.
Carol
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Thanks for your feedback. It's not a great print. Here it is at 300dpi and as a jpg
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This man has no stripes so before becoming an L/Bdr. This gives a very narrow window of 1/2/18 - 15/5/18.
Agree UK & probably a senior Officers funeral.
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I'm thinking that this is a procession departing from a railway station.
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I agree Jim and Geoff, the body of a deceased local Lancashire great or good arrives by train transferred to gun carriage funeral cortege. I'm beginning to think this may be somewhere in Lancashire close to or actually Preston in early 1918 and before Samuel deployed to France. Is the big Pylon some sort of clue I wonder?
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Apart from the chap in the top hat and passengers in the carriage behind all spectators seem
to be in uniform.
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I wonder if it is worth asking the army records - - with a gun carriage and cortege of that size you'd think it would have to be someone of high rank wouldn't you?
They may even have photos similar to yours.
Wiggy
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A slight clean up, :)
Yvonne
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just a tidy
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Great 'tidy' and 'clean up' !! Very grateful.
Wondering who in 'Army Records' could be contacted? Good idea though. Many thanks
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Drawing on ideas from the GWF I did think it might be the Private William Young VC funeral in Preston in 1916.
However whilst the circumstances and parade format are clearly very similar between the 2 corteges I'm not certain the 2 gun carriage teams are the same.
Samuel George's forage cap has clearly seen some action as has the forage cap of the number 3. In the Young gun team the forage caps of the drivers look a little more pristine and less battered!
The limber team pair in Samuel George's pic dont appear to be carrying a wreath whilst the Young limber team pair appear to be carrying a wreath.
Looks like the Union Jack on the Young coffin is larger than the one of the Samuel George cortege coffin.
The Samuel George team assembly point looks like some sort of market square with a train station awning to the right. Preston market square has similarities but I can't make any real cross matches with any certainty.
The formats are so close this must be the format applied to all WW1 repatriation funerals?
I think the location is the clear clue, if we could identify that the date and occasion would probably follow. Is it a market square with a train station?
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This man has no stripes so before becoming an L/Bdr. This gives a very narrow window of 1/2/18 - 15/5/18.
Agree UK & probably a senior Officers funeral.
Great spot, jim1 - I missed that.
Senior officer, decorated officer (VC or MC?) or decorated "other rank" would be my bet.
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I'm not an expert but these horses are in very poor condition (compare with William Young funeral)
as they might be at the end of a war. There are no civilian onlookers, so this funeral is not
attracting attention as it would in UK. Could it be outside the UK? I'm in Aust. so not familiar
with landmarks but the pole in the photo could be significant. Is it typically UK at that time or
somewhere else?
Added: Given the dates Jim gave, if it was in the UK, it could be narrowed down between 15th April
1918 when he was posted as Driver to C battery, 290 Brigade RFA and 15th May 1918 when he
was posted to France. A very short window.
Jen.
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some good points, thanks. I'm sort of hoping the Pylon/Telegraph pole on the left, perhaps the roof facades on the buildings or even the awning to the right (railway station entrance/covered market) might provide a clue.
The fact that there is an undertaker with top hat, presumably on a horse drawn hearse (similar to the Young VC funeral in Preston) is there might mean it's a UK funeral. What about the kids in peaky blinder caps by the awning on the right)?
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Hi there
so 9 months after the initial post I'm wondering if anyone else can identify something in the photo that might give a clue as to location?
best wishes for a merry Christmas and Happy new year!!
George
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Looks like the picture was laying face to face with a handwritten text. Any idea of the document it was facing?
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Hi, just coming in on this, I looked at the picture in the opening post and the first thing to come to my mind is that it looks surprisingly like a very early Doncaster railway station.
I could be wrong but it does look like it.
Frank.
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Photograph from the internet, full acknowledgement to owner in watermark.
Check the likeness of the lamp post in the distance on opening post photograph :-\
Frank.
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Great spot!! Doncaster would sort of make sense.
Dr Dude, I think you're right but sadly the document is long gone
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Coincidentally my cousin, and grandson of the lead driver Samuel George Barratt, lives in Sheffield, not a million miles from Doncaster. He is now on the case to see if the Donny archives might throw up something.
Many thanks to Frank and everyone else who has shown interest in this thread and any further suggestions gratefully accepted!
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I've run out of time to work on this today, but figured I'd post what I found. I've been slowly trying to extract what text was transferred there from the other document. It looks like it could be written in French or mention a location in France. I've highlighted the portions so far extracted in this JPEG.
Sorry I was unable to finish right now, but time permitting I will get back to it. Hope it helps somewhat.
Dr. Dude
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Crikey Dr Dude that really is a good spot! I did wonder if the location could be France (Amiens area perhaps) in mid to late 1918. (See his service record in original post). It has been pointed out that the horses aren't in best condition and I'd expect the horses on a UK based gun carriage team to be in better nick and perhaps their condition points to an operational team which have been subject to a more rigorous deployment regime. Perhaps this was taken when he was with C Battery 290 (CCXC) Brigade Royal Field Artillery who were assigned to 58th (2/1st London) Division. I have their war diary and have plotted their movements in the period April to Oct in and around Amiens. If you look at his arm I think a Lance Bombardier Stripe can just be seen although I accept it may be a trick of the light. Thanks for your time and application Dr Dude, much appreciated.
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The station is a great find.
A funeral like this wouldn't have taken place in France no matter who it was.
The buildings are very un-French like. French buildings are generally quite distinct.