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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: mhearn on Tuesday 06 March 18 10:31 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
Can anyone shed any light on these circumstances at all?
Edward Manley born 6th November 1805 in Southwark.
He was baptised on 26th December 1805 at St James, Piccadilly, Westminster, Middlesex. It says BBS to Hannah Manley and Thomas Wheeler (transcribed Smalley but it is Wheeler) so this says he's illegitimate.
Then four years later he is baptised again on 17th September 1809 at St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey, Southwark to Hannah Manley and Edward Manley DOB 6th November 1805.
Can I be sure it is the same person? I think it is. His marriage certificate states Edward Manley as his father. I can't find anything concrete on Hannah Manley at all. Can anyone tell me if this is common situation or how I can find out further information? Thank you and sorry for the long post.
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Given that the date of birth is the same, it does look as if it is the same person. Although baptism shouldn't happen twice, it does. I have a great x4 grandfather baptised at a day old in Great Yarmouth and then again aged 8, with all his siblings, in London.
It could be that the baby was baptised in a hurry as he wasn't expected to live. However, in your case maybe the family did it to make him appear legitimate.
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Thank you kindly for your prompt reply. The only thing that is intriguing is that he was named Edward Manley after Hannah Manley and then his father is stated as Manley 4 years later, unless of course she married a cousin maybe?
I don't think I'll be able to get further back with this part of the tree. I have tried for many year!
Thank you again.
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You give his date of birth as November 1806 but the first baptism as December 1805. This would mean that he was baptised before he was born. If these dates are correct it can't be the same person.
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The birthdate in the opening post must be a simple typo. The parish registers for the baptisms show as follows:
26 Dec 1805, St James Piccadilly:
Edward, B.B. Son of Hannah Manley & Thomas Wheeler, born Nov 6.
17 Sep 1809, St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey:
Edward (born Nov 6th 1805) son of Edward Manley and Hannah his wife Labourer St John’s South[wark].
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Possibly relevant?
Burial at St John Horselydown, Bermondsey, Southwark
15 Apr 1810 Edward Manley, aged 59.
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Sorry that was a typo with the birthdates - it's now been amended.
Thank you re the burial - I will look into that line and see if anything comes up.
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The Edward Manley named as father at 2nd baptism and on marriage certificate may have been young Edward's grandfather. I've seen a few examples of this among my ancestors. It was to hide the fact Edward was illegitimate. I've searched for made-up fathers more than once. Although as you suggest it's possible that Hannah married a cousin.
Perhaps Hannah originally had hopes of marrying Thomas Wheeler. When that didn't happen she may have decided to attempt to "legitimise" her son another way, having him baptised again with a different surname.
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Thank you yes that sounds like the likely theory. Would you know if maybe she didn't marry a cousin and had him baptised again (to legitimise him) do the churches do this willingly? or is it all cloak and dagger as such. Not sure how else to word what I mean.
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As he was baptised at two different churches, she probably didn't mention he'd already been baptised. ;D
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Would the father have to be there for a baptism? (this would assuming she didn't marry a cousin?)
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I've just looked at the second baptism and it definitely refers to Hannah as the wife of Edward, and gives his occupation as a labourer, doesn't it?
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Yes it does. Even though I can't find anything on the two of them after this. Maybe it was her cousin. I don't think I'll ever solve this mystery. I wonder if I paid someone to look into it they might be able to uncover something?
Thank you for looking at it - I really appreciate your time.
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It would probably cost you quite a bit to hire one and if they didn't actually marry you might waste your money. Before doing that, why not ask a Mod to move this post to the London and Middlesex board, as there may be someone who has access to parish records or similar and who could help. Just click on the Report to Mod under your post.
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Thank you so much for your help. I've done just that and asked for the post to be moved. Thanks again - Michelle
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I've just looked at the second baptism and it definitely refers to Hannah as the wife of Edward, and gives his occupation as a labourer, doesn't it?
Baptism entry for a grandchild of one of my ancestors which has his name as father gives his occupation and address. 5 of his genuine children were baptised at the same church in the previous decade. Actually I'm suspecting the youngest of those 5 may have been another grandchild. Baptisms took place at a busy church in a rapidly growing town; overworked curates probably didn't waste time querying information they were given by mothers.
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I wonder what happened at the actual service though, would both parents be expected to be there, together with godparents? I wonder if a vicar would question it if just the mother turned up?
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I wonder what happened at the actual service though, would both parents be expected to be there, together with godparents? I wonder if a vicar would question it if just the mother turned up?
This is something that I would love to know too. I haven't really looked into Thomas Wheeler but its starting to look like he is the father. Would love something more concrete but as it is with these things we can only go by the information available.
Is there anything else I can do? or look at? I think I've exhausted my resources.
Thank you for the replies. Much appreciated
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Do you have Edward jnr in 1841?
And no sign of Hannah anywhere?
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Just putting this here for completeness - no idea if involved in the fun (though same church...):
Thos Wheeler
baptised, 26 Feb 1809 St James, Piccadilly
Thos Wheeler
Frances Wheeler
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Do you have Edward jnr in 1841?
And no sign of Hannah anywhere?
Yes I have Edward Jnr in 1841, 1851 & 1861 until he died in 1865. He was a hairdresser as were all the male children going down the tree until 1934.
No trace of Hannah or Edward (that I can find!)
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Just putting this here for completeness - no idea if involved in the fun (though same church...):
Thos Wheeler
baptised, 26 Feb 1809 St James, Piccadilly
Thos Wheeler
Frances Wheeler
Thats the same year - the mind boggles!
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Not an uncommon name though, especially in a large place such as London, so may just be a coincidence.
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The only entry I can find for a Hannah Manley in the London area are two workhouse discharge entries. 20th June & 9th August 1944. St Martins, Westminster.
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Not an uncommon name though, especially in a large place such as London, so may just be a coincidence.
Indeed I'm just going round in circles. The name Edward suggest that his father is Edward unless they are two different Edwd Jnrs. I can't find anything on Hannah, Edward snr or Thomas Wheeler.
Think this is going to remain mystery.
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Got her!!!
She was admitted to (presumably the Workshouse?) Westminster, St James, Piccadilly, London, England on 18th October 1805 as Hanh Manley.
Under her name it says "Male born 6th November 1805"
On her admission she was 20 and pregnant.
She was admitted by the order of Mr Evans.
Under the Settlement column it says " N12 ?137 BB" I don't know what that means.
Under clothes it says "1 shift and Decent"
In the remarks column it says "Never in the Hs before"
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Got her!!!
She was admitted to (presumably the Workshouse?) Westminster, St James, Piccadilly, London, England on 18th October 1805 as Hanh Manley.
Under her name it says "Male born 6th November 1805"
On her admission she was 20 and pregnant.
She was admitted by the order of Mr Evans.
Under the Settlement column it says " N12 ?137 BB" I don't know what that means.
Under clothes it says "1 shift and Decent"
In the remarks column it says "Never in the Hs before"
This is absolutely incredible. Thank you so much for looking into this for me. I cannot tell you how happy I am you've found something concrete.
Thank you again (this means so much to me)
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Brilliant! Did that require browsing or was it searchable?
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Quite possibly a red herring, but I see that a Hannah Manley married Thomas Thomas (both of the parish) at St Martin in the Fields on 27 June 1806, after banns.
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In answer to an earlier point, it was never the case that named parents had to attend a baptism (or even be still around or alive). A baptism register doesn't tell you who presented the child for baptism.
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Brilliant! Did that require browsing or was it searchable?
It was on FindMyPast!
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Quite possibly a red herring, but I see that a Hannah Manley married Thomas Thomas (both of the parish) at St Martin in the Fields on 27 June 1806, after banns.
Yes, I saw that yesterday and wondered if there was any connection. Difficult as it it so early, no real records to check.
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Brilliant! Did that require browsing or was it searchable?
It was on FindMyPast!
I have found it on there as you suggested - I had searched so many times but nothing. I don't know how that happens. Thank you again.
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Quite possibly a red herring, but I see that a Hannah Manley married Thomas Thomas (both of the parish) at St Martin in the Fields on 27 June 1806, after banns.
Yes, I saw that yesterday and wondered if there was any connection. Difficult as it it so early, no real records to check.
Yes i've seen this one, like you say possibly red herring. Thank you for looking
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In answer to an earlier point, it was never the case that named parents had to attend a baptism (or even be still around or alive). A baptism register doesn't tell you who presented the child for baptism.
Thank you for this, I never knew that. Very interesting and would explain a lot.
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I wonder what happened at the actual service though, would both parents be expected to be there, together with godparents? I wonder if a vicar would question it if just the mother turned up?
As the second baptism took place a few years after Edward was born Hannah may have implied that she was a widow.
Edward's birth and baptisms happened during the Napoleonic Wars. Many fathers would have been absent when their children were born and baptised. Some would have been in army or navy. Civilians were recruited or conscripted into militias and moved around Britain and Ireland.
Even if a father was at home, unless the baptism was on a Sunday he would probably have been working and unable to attend.
At the time when a baby was baptised soon after birth, the mother would not attend; she stayed home, recovering from the birth. In places where it was customary for a woman to return to her mother's home to give birth, maternal grandparents would take the baby to church for baptism.
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In answer to an earlier point, it was never the case that named parents had to attend a baptism (or even be still around or alive). A baptism register doesn't tell you who presented the child for baptism.
My 3x GGF was on a baptism register of 1823. He was named as father of an illegitimate son and his occupation was given. I'm fairly certain he wasn't at the baptism for 2 reasons:
1. Some time later he was subject to an affiliation & maintenance order for the child so was obviously not supporting his son voluntarily.
2. He was a member of a staunchly Catholic family and the baptism was in the C. of E. parish church.