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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Joyner1 on Wednesday 07 March 18 20:10 GMT (UK)
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I wonder if anyone can give me any advice on these two marriage certificates.
My great grandfather Christopher John Harris married Elizabeth Johnson in 1914, he died in 1917 and she went on to remarry Thomas Shorland in 1919. The strange thing is that the first marriage certificate shows Elizabeth's father as John William Johnson (deceased) but the second certificate from 1919 shows her father as George Wells. I am at a loss to understand why. Elizabeth is such a mystery to me as I just cannot find anything prior to her marrying into our Harris family and now this has baffled me!
Any help greatly appreciated.
Carole
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Are you sure you have the right marriages?
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Just thinking aloud here, but if her father had died then maybe George Wells was her step-father. She was possibly known by the everyday name of Elizabeth Wells, but when she had to produce her birth certificate for marriage purposes it showed her original birth name and therefore she gave her birth father's name for consistency.
For her second marriage, she would have been able to show the marriage certificate for her first marriage as proof of her (married) name and thus it was less problematic for her to put the name of George Wells (the man who actually reared her) as her father.
Possibly an explanation or possibly just a flight of fantasy, but it could explain why you haven't found Elizabeth Johnson prior to the first marriage; because she might be listed in census documents as Elizabeth Wells. I haven't made any attempt to check out this theory in case you've already been down this path.
I note that one of the witnesses to the first marriage looks like "L Wells"
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Well spotted Rattus (sorry no pun intended!)
I think we need to find Elizabeth in 1911 or 1901 to see the name of her mother.
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Are you sure you have the right marriages?
Yes, these are both the right marriage certificates, we have all the information for Christopher Harris and the addresses all match with our records. The second certificate, again matches addresses we knew Elizabeth and Thomas lived at and my Grandad grew up knowing Thomas as his father and knew Kate Street.
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Thank you Rattus, that sounds like it could be a good reason. Thank you so much as I hadn't noticed L Wells being a witness. George Wells can be found on an electoral roll living with LOUISA Wells and Elizabeth Harris in 1919 at 24 Kate Street, Balham.
I only received the latest certificate two days ago but after 10 years of searching for Elizabeth with no joy I now feel I might be able to find something :) :)
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Well spotted Rattus (sorry no pun intended!)
I think we need to find Elizabeth in 1911 or 1901 to see the name of her mother.
Yes, Groom it was very well spotted because I hadn't noticed it. I am really excited now to have another avenue to follow after 10 years of searching, so glad I ordered the marriage certificate for Elizabeth and Thomas now.
A day of research tomorrow :D if any of you come up with anything, I'll be pleased to have your help Rattus and Groom.
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George Wells can be found on an electoral roll living with LOUISA Wells and Elizabeth Harris in 1919 at 24 Kate Street, Balham.
So that definitely links Elizabeth with that family doesn't it?
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In 1901:
473/113/4
at 31 Fernlea Rd Streatham
George Wells 1847 b Brighton
Louisa Wells b 1857 Croydon
Edward Johnson Son-In-Law Single Male 17 1884 b Croydon
Lizzie Johnson Daughter-InLaw b 1888 Croydon
Maureen
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Hi Groom, it certainly does, I am so excited and my mum remembers Kate Street being talked about as a child. It's amazing how when you thought you had hit that brick wall and could go no further things take a turn for the better. So glad I tried this site, you're all amazing.
MaureeninNY that is well worth investigating tomorrow, thank you.
I suddenly feel I might be able to go back before 1914 on Elizabeth.
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Just thinking aloud here, but if her father had died then maybe George Wells was her step-father. She was possibly known by the everyday name of Elizabeth Wells, but when she had to produce her birth certificate for marriage purposes it showed her original birth name and therefore she gave her birth father's name for consistency
You didn’t have to produce a birth certificate to get married until very recently. It is possible she may have been illegitimate and named a fictional father for the first marriage (something frequently done) and named a step father on the second marriage.
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Had to be said am drawing blanks for any of the Johnsons or George Wells prior to 1901 - not even likely births in Croydon
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In 1901:
473/113/4
at 31 Fernlea Rd Streatham
George Wells 1847 b Brighton
Louisa Wells b 1857 Croydon
Edward Johnson Son-In-Law Single Male 17 1884 b Croydon
Lizzie Johnson Daughter-InLaw b 1888 Croydon
Maureen
That looks very likely that is the family as George's occupation is given as Florist Gardener and on the marriage certificate it is Gardener. ;D
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In 1901:
473/113/4
at 31 Fernlea Rd Streatham
George Wells 1847 b Brighton
Louisa Wells b 1857 Croydon
Edward Johnson Son-In-Law Single Male 17 1884 b Croydon
Lizzie Johnson Daughter-InLaw b 1888 Croydon
Maureen
This does all fit, on the 1919 marriage certificate George Wells is shown as gardener, which is the occupation on the 1901 census. Also 31 Fernlea Road is literally around the corner from where her first husband Christopher Harris was living in Hydethorpe Road, a picture is being built !!
Not quite sure why she would be down as a daughter in law on the census but maybe Edward was her brother and the George and Louisa took them in. Elizabeth named her first daughter Louisa :'( I hope there is a lovely story here.
Again, you are all being so helpful, I am so grateful. Anything else you come up with keep it coming, I can't explain how happy I am, If anyone would like to view my tree it can be found on Ancestry it is the Joyner Harris family tree and my user name is CaroleFortune it is an open tree.
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Daughter-in-law and step daughter were used with the same meaning.
Try finding the Kate St addy on the 1911 if you can.
Stumped as to where everyone was in 1891,too!
Maureen
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Daughter-in-law and step daughter were used with the same meaning.
Try finding the Kate St addy on the 1911 if you can.
Stumped as to where everyone was in 1891,too!
Maureen
Maureen, you are amazing, I didn't know that but it makes sense. THANK YOU
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Hi Joyner
you may want to go back to your original post and crop the images you have posted before the copyright team remove them.
You will need to rename them as the system may not allow you to use the same name again.
Only small portions of certificates are allowed for deciphering purposes.
Dawn
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Hi Joyner
you may want to go back to your original post and crop the images you have posted before the copyright team remove them.
You will need to rename them as the system may not allow you to use the same name again.
Only small portions of certificates are allowed for deciphering purposes.
Dawn
This crops up on here time and time again and yet there does not seem to be a satisfactory answer as to why the whole certificate cannot be shown. Now I am not saying you are right or wrong, what I am asking for is an explanation that can be defended given that full certificates are regularly posted on other sites. And whilst we are on the subject has anyone asked the GRO for a definitive ruling on this ? Thank you.
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I've been trying to find a George Wells/Louise Johnson marriage but can't, so it could be that she just took his name and they didn't marry.
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Hi Joyner
you may want to go back to your original post and crop the images you have posted before the copyright team remove them.
You will need to rename them as the system may not allow you to use the same name again.
Only small portions of certificates are allowed for deciphering purposes.
Dawn
Sorry I didn’t realise that, it’s the first time I’ve posted an atttachment. I have just removed them. Am I allowed to crop and have just the middle hand written part of the certificate or should it be smaller than that?
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I've been trying to find a George Wells/Louise Johnson marriage but can't, so it could be that she just took his name and they didn't marry.
I’ve just been doing the same and coming up with nothing. On my grandads birth certificate it gives his mother’s maiden name as Elizabeth Johnson. On the 1939 register it gives her actual date of birth as 26 Feb 1888 but just searched the bmd registers and getting I’m not getting anywhere with an Elizabeth Johnson being registered in Croydon for then either with a mother’s name as Johnson. Still a mystery.
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There’s only two Elizabeth Johnson births in Croydon between 1886 and 1888, both registered December 1888, which wouldn’t fit with a February birth.
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You didn’t have to produce a birth certificate to get married until very recently.
Not necessary even now ...you do have to produce proof of ID, but doesn't have to be a birth certificate. A passport is the the most common thing used.
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And whilst we are on the subject has anyone asked the GRO for a definitive ruling on this ?
There are prior RootsChat discussions referencing earlier (and apparently more restrictive) guidelines regarding the reproduction of UK BMD certificates, but the latest version now seems to be from May 2014:
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/information-management/reproduction-of-birth-death-marriage-certificates.pdf
The key section:
2.3. Reproducing completed forms
You are authorised to reproduce certificates for all purposes other than providing evidence of an event (see 4 below), subject to the restrictions listed below. This may include publishing in a book or magazine, or placing a copy on the internet.
There is also a relevant FAQ answer:
"As long as there are no details about living individuals there is no problem about publishing the images of the certificates on your family tree website. Any modern certificates would be subject to the Data Protection Act, and would need the permission of any living named person prior to publication."
I haven't found any guidelines specific to the posting of BMD certificates on RootsChat. There is definitely a very active policy prohibiting the posting of other types of paid/copyright information (e.g. 1939 register info) that cannot be found via free channels.
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@ Rattus
Thank you for your post.
Yes I am aware of what you have posted which is what prompted me to ask the question in the first place as the information at reply #16 appears to be more restrictive than official guidelines and practice elsewhere. We shall have to wait and see if we get a reply from the poster at reply #16.
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You didn’t have to produce a birth certificate to get married until very recently.
Not necessary even now ...you do have to produce proof of ID, but doesn't have to be a birth certificate. A passport is the the most common thing used.
Yes, I should have been more explicit and included or passport or other form of identification.
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As we now know John William Johnson died between 1888 and 1901
I searched for deaths in the right areas ~(London - as the children were born in Croydon)
June 1886 - JOHNSON John William 25 Brighton 2b 149
Sept 1889 - Johnson John William 44 Wandsworth 1d 361
Jun 1894 - Johnson John William 28 Pancras 1b 77
Sept 1895 - Johnson John William 40 Romford 4a 236
Sept 1900 - Johnson John William 30 Paddington 1a 50 .
I also searched for a John William Johnson marrying a Louisa and found a few possibilities
Sept 1884
Baker Louisa Chorlton 8c 943
Johnson John William Chorlton 8c 943
Sept 1881
JOHNSON John William Gloucester 6a 418
MEADOWS Louisa Gloucester 6a 418
The locations don't suit for either - but maybe possibilities still - do you know what John William Johnson profession was?
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June 1886 - JOHNSON John William 25 Brighton 2b 149
Sept 1889 - Johnson John William 44 Wandsworth 1d 361
I would go for either of these. Brighton as that is where George Wells came from, so perhaps the family had moved there. Wandsworth as that is the nearest to Croydon, the others are all the "wrong" side of the Thames.
However, although the census said the children were born in Croydon, there are no registrations at the relevant times.
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As we now know John William Johnson died between 1888 and 1901
I searched for deaths in the right areas ~(London - as the children were born in Croydon)
June 1886 - JOHNSON John William 25 Brighton 2b 149
Sept 1889 - Johnson John William 44 Wandsworth 1d 361
Jun 1894 - Johnson John William 28 Pancras 1b 77
Sept 1895 - Johnson John William 40 Romford 4a 236
Sept 1900 - Johnson John William 30 Paddington 1a 50 .
I also searched for a John William Johnson marrying a Louisa and found a few possibilities
Sept 1884
Baker Louisa Chorlton 8c 943
Johnson John William Chorlton 8c 943
Sept 1881
JOHNSON John William Gloucester 6a 418
MEADOWS Louisa Gloucester 6a 418
The locations don't suit for either - but maybe possibilities still - do you know what John William Johnson profession was?
Thanks Cwellan CoDown, I'm working my way through lots of possibilities like this at the moment but as you say nothing quite fits.
According to the marriage certificate from 1914 when Christopher John Harris m Elizabeth Johnson - Father is John William Johnson (deceased) occupation is shown as plumber (journeyman)
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It's strange that the family can't be found in 1891 or 1911.
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It's strange that the family can't be found in 1891 or 1911.
Hi Groom, really strange, I am pulling my hair out again ::) I've been searching all morning, really thought I had some leads to go on today but just coming up with dead ends again.
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I think the Croydon connection may be a red herring as there are no births for the children there and no likely marriages for a John Johnson to a Louisa.
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Keep this birth on record, just in case the children turn out to be illegitimate!
Louisa Matilda Johnson
1854 Jan-Feb-Mar
Croydon
Volume: 2a
Page: 184
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Here's the 1911.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW5J-QJN
Not really much help!
Maureen
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I see though that they still claim Elizabeth was born in Croydon. Although this time George also says he was born there rather than Brighton. He also says he is a cowman/farm labourer rather than a gardener which he was in 1901 and again on the later marriage certificate.
They claim to have been married 14 years, but there are no Wells/Johnson marriages in that period. Looks as if this family don't want to be found.
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Can you post the following details from the marriage certificate please for Christopher John Harris
1. Estimated date of birth
2. CJH's occupation
3. Father's name
4. Father's occupation
Thank you
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Can you post the following details from the marriage certificate please for Christopher John Harris
1. Estimated date of birth
2. CJH's occupation
3. Father's name
4. Father's occupation
Thank you
I have attached a small part of the marriage cert giving the details you ask for. I can tell you that CJH was born in 1888 and the birth is registered Lambeth October quarter 1888 Volume 1d page 415. I have lots more info on the Harris family.
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Here's the 1911.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW5J-QJN
Not really much help!
Maureen
Thanks Maureen, although not much help it still shows Elizabeth in 1911, which is something I haven't found. Ancestry search facility is not as helpful, I was having to search the records manually as the search wasn't giving me anything!
Groom, you are certainly right, the family don't want to be found.
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I had asked for the details re CJH to see if I could find him and Elizabeth on the 1939 register, no joy.
Still it did confirm that CJH was born 1888 in Lambeth to John and Honour/Hannah (depending which census you use).
EDIT
But then if this is the correct marriage her name should be Hester
Marriages Mar 1883
HARRIS Hester London C. 1c 109
HARRIS John London C. 1c 109
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I had asked for the details re CJH to see if I could find him and Elizabeth on the 1939 register, no joy.
Still it did confirm that CJH was born 1888 in Lambeth to John and Honour/Hannah (depending which census you use).
EDIT
But then if this is the correct marriage her name should be Hester
Marriages Mar 1883
HARRIS Hester London C. 1c 109
HARRIS John London C. 1c 109
Christopher died in 1917, as Elizabeth remarried, so he wouldn't be in the 1939! ;)
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Christopher died in 1917, as Elizabeth remarried, so he wouldn't be in the 1939! ;)
Oh well my intention was good ;) ;D
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All your intentions are good and welcome. I have been on this journey for ten years so I suppose I wasn't all of a sudden going to have a miracle ;D
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This is a bit tentative, but I'm posting it on the grounds that even though it has a few holes, it might be the answer, and maybe there is better evidence to support it out there somewhere.
In 1901 Lizzie Johnson has an older brother Edward, aged 17, born in Croydon.
There are no births registered in Croydon of an Edward Johnson during 1883/4.
In the 1891 census there is a 7 year old Edward Johnson, born in Croydon, recorded as the grandson of Thomas and Frances Couchman in Mereworth, Kent. His parents are not present.
Frances Couchman, née Sears married Stephen Wenham in 1859, having born a child to him earlier in the year named Elizabeth Ann Wenham. Stephen died soon after the marriage, and Frances married Thomas Couchman in 1864.
Elizabeth appears with the family in 1871 in Linton, Kent with the surname Couchman. She is not with them in 1881, and I haven't been able to find her.
On 15 May 1881 Elizabeth Wenham, spinster aged 22 married Edward Johnson, bachelor aged 23. Father named Alfred. Edward was a plumber.
Elizabeth names her father Thomas Wenham (but perhaps we can excuse her not knowing the name of the father she didn't remember). Witnesses Alfred Johnson (brother or father), and Minnie Johnson (sister).
In December Q 1883 a birth of an Edward Johnson mother's mn Wenham was registered in Bromley district (which neighbours Croydon).
I can't see any further births of Johnson children with mother's mn Wenham.
In 1891 Edward Johnson snr is with his parents Alfred and Martha. He says he is married, but wife and child are not present.
I can't find Elizabeth.
I notice two trees on Ancestry show Elizabeth as having died in Croydon in 1894, but there is no record of this.
While acknowledging that there are gaps in the storyline, and that if true, it creates a whole new lot of questions, I'm suggesting that Louisa Wells may be Elizabeth Johnson née Wenham.
(Louisa's age is one question. If she is Elizabeth she is three years older than she should be in 1901, but then she is four years older than that in 1911, and those two records are definitely the same woman.)
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Obviously that would need checking, but it looks very plausible to me, Galium. As you say, Edward could easily have been registered in Bromley but have lived in Croydon as, even to someone living there, the borders are unclear. For instance I lived in a postal address of Croydon, but about 500 metres further on it would be Bromley.
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Hi Joyner
you may want to go back to your original post and crop the images you have posted before the copyright team remove them.
You will need to rename them as the system may not allow you to use the same name again.
Only small portions of certificates are allowed for deciphering purposes.
Dawn
This crops up on here time and time again and yet there does not seem to be a satisfactory answer as to why the whole certificate cannot be shown. Now I am not saying you are right or wrong, what I am asking for is an explanation that can be defended given that full certificates are regularly posted on other sites. And whilst we are on the subject has anyone asked the GRO for a definitive ruling on this ? Thank you.
This rule of only posting parts of certificates was as a result with discussion with the National Archives. The policy has not changed since this ruling.
The copyright policy of RootsChat is here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php
It is worth noting at this point that we do not openly discuss legal matters that have the potential to affect this site, or its continuance. Please direct your replies to answering only the query of the topic itself, rather than discussing the point above and questioning the copyright policy in force on this site.
Many thanks for your understanding,
Trystan
RootsChat co-founder.