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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: tarquin christian on Thursday 08 March 18 14:54 GMT (UK)
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I'm currently trying to find any information reagarding the above Henry James Norris who married Elener Jane Fredericks 12/09/1926
I think I found him on the 1891 Census but cannot find him any where else. He might have died around 1943 but cannot confirm this at the moment
His father is also called Henry Norris from my parents marriage certificate 1946 he was deceased by then though
Thanks in advance
Tarquin Christian
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And his marriage certificate too
Henry James Norris married Elener Jane Norris on 12/09/1926
at St Johns in St george in the east , both were living at 104 Commercial Road London
Henry Norris ( Deceased) ??
Henry James Norris Died ?? maybe 1943 but definatley before 1946 as stated deceased on my parents marriage cert
Elener Jane died in 1946
3 children Edna, Constance and Patricia
Mum, Aunt Aunt
7 Half siblings from first marriage ( Fredericks ) No problems there
Thanks for the advice on copyright as well
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The father on the 1946 marriage cert is the father of the groom ie if the marriage cert is for your parents then the Henry James Norris given as father is your grandfather.
And he is the one presumably who married Eleanor Fredericks. So , to find his father, you need to look at his marriage cert, not that of his daughter.
Ah! I see you have added it. You will need to remove it, as full copies like that are not allowed for copyright reasons. Just type up the info from them.
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There are certainly plenty of Henry James Norris es around.
If yours was "of full age" in 1926, then he was at least 21, so should be on 1911 census but not necessarily any before.
Really need a death to get a birth year - but will take a bit of sorting to get the right death!
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He had died before 1946 (when Elener dies)
as here is her Probate index entry:
Elener Jane Norris of 340b High Road Ilford, widow, died 30 Sept 1946 Administration to Albert Dennis Frederick and George Elijah Fredericks
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Yes, these are her sons ,along with,
Elsie, Frederick, Albert, John, Leslie, George, Gladys Fredericks and
Edna, Connie and Pat Norris
Apparently he left the family and my mother doesn't want to discuuss it at all.
I think he was 1 in 1891 if that the correct family and in the GRO I found a Henry James Norris died in 1943 in Stepney . Bit of a dead end at the moment until I find out what his mothers maiden name was. I knew most of the above except Frederick and John
THanks
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So (to get a handle on his likely age) his wife was born Elener Jane Goss (Dec qtr 1892 Greenwich) & married Frederick C Fredericks in St Geo East in 1912.
She was widowed when Frederick C Fredericks died aged 40 in Whitechapel, Dec qtr 1925.
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The Henry J Norris aged 1 in 1891 in Christian St, St George in the East is a son of Henry and Esther, both aged 24 (and the only child listed with them). RG12/285/14/27.
This possible marriage may be worth a look: Henry Norris/Esther Clark, on the same page Dec qtr 1888 Bethnal Green 1c 645.
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Birth reg: Henry James Norris, mother's maiden name Clark, Jun qtr 1890 St Geo East 1c 361.
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Possible siblings:
William Norris, mmn Clark, Mar qtr 1892 St Geo East (poss death aged 0, Mar qtr 1892)
Alice Norris, mmn Clark, Mar qtr 1893 St Geo East (poss death aged 0, Sep qtr 1893)
Thomas George Norris, mmn Clark, Dec qtr 1894 Mile End Old Town (poss death aged 0, Sep qtr 1896)
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A second marriage for Esther:
25 December 1905, St John the Evangelist, St Geo East
Samuel Barnett 46 Widower Gen labourer of 69 Ellen St. Father: David Barnett, deceased.
Esther Norris 39 Widow of 69 Ellen St. Father: William Clark, deceased.
Witnesses: William Pratt, Simkia Theresa Barnett.
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Death of Esther Barnett aged 42, Jun qtr 1910 St Geo East.
We can't give full 1911 census info on here, but a free index search suggests Samuel Barnett and his stepson Henry Norris are likely to be together in Shadwell, and also the 1905 marriage witnesses (William Thomas Pratt had married Simkia Theresa Barnett in 1908).
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There is an Army Service record for a Henry Norris stating Stepmother as Esther Barnett who lved at20 Sheridan Street, Stepney. I think that address is associated with Commercial Road.
In 1924
Electoral Rolls
65 Sheridan street, Stepney
Frederick Christopher Fredericks Snr
" " " Jnr
Emma Fredericks
Elizabeth Ann Norris
Samuel Norris
William Alfred Norris
Not sure what that means but a Norris/Fredericks Connection.
Cathy
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Intriguing :)
I think the men at 65 Sheridan St were Christopher Fredericks (snr and jnr), rather than having Frederick as a given name too.
Christopher Fredericks snr and Emma had had son Christian Christopher Fredericks baptised in 1897 - birth reg shows his mmn as Fowler. (They seems to have married belatedly as Christian W Fredericks and Emma E Fowler in 1933).
Presumably there was a link to Elener's first husband Frederick Charles Fredericks, birth reg Jun qtr 1885 Mile End with mmn Bates.
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:) yes ,I think I probably got my Fredericks mixed up
Cathy
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Tarquin - are you able to tell us who were the witnesses to the 1926 marriage?
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It's odd that Henry Norris names Esther Barnett as his stepmother and next of kin upon enlistment in 1916, given that (a) she was his mother, and (b) she had died in 1910.
Unless... his stepfather Samuel Barnett had since remarried to another Esther? There's a possible Samuel Barnett marriage to Esther Strickland, Dec qtr 1914.
I see from the Army record that Henry Norris was only 4ft 10in tall.
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Unless... his stepfather Samuel Barnett had since remarried to another Esther? There's a possible Samuel Barnett marriage to Esther Strickland, Dec qtr 1914.
I now see that 20 Sheridan St, Stepney (Henry Norris' address on enlistment in 1916) was occupied by an Esther Stickland (also Leonard, Lily and Violet Stickland) in 1931. There's an Esther Stickland at 20 Sheridan St as early as 1918 - free index to 1911 suggests even earlier.
My head hurts! :D
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So does mine a bit :)
Witnesses from wedding on 1926, St John the Evangelist, St George in the East
Samuel C Duncan (I think)
Albert F H Goss (Eleanor Jane 's maiden name, her father was a Elijah ? Goss
Elsie E A Fredericks
Cathy
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Ok - here's what I think happened.
1888: Henry Norris (snr) married Esther Clark
1890: Henry and Esther Norris had a son, Henry James Norris
??: Henry Norris snr died
1905: Esther Norris nee Clark remarried to Samuel Barnett
1910: Esther Barnett nee Clark died, leaving Samuel Barnett a widower
1914: Samuel Barnett remarried to widow Esther Stickland and moved into her home, 20 Sheridan St
1915: Samuel Barnett died aged 56 (Whitechapel)
1916: Henry Norris joined the Army, naming his stepmother Esther Barnett of 20 Sheridan St as NOK
1918: Esther (having reverted to surname Stickland) remained at 20 Sheridan St - until her death in 1933.
1926: Henry Norris married widow Elener Fredericks, possibly having met her through some connection with the Fredericks and Norris households who lived at 65 Sheridan St by 1918 at the latest.
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Witnesses to marriage are Elsie Fredericks, Albert Goss and what looks like Samuel C Duncan
Fredericks from first Marriage
The Goss comes from my mothers side As it was Elener Jane Goss before Fredericks
And also Edna , connie and pat were small in stature
see pic of Gladys fredericks, and the 3 girls with Elener
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I've not come across Sheridan St yet but will see if its possible, Frederick C Fredericks died in 1925 according to my records but so far in my family nothing is as it seems.
they lived at Barley Mow, 104 Commercial Road, St George In East and license holders were
1911/Sarah Cammell/Mother (Widow)/84
1915/Elijah Francis Goss/beer retailer
1921/Elijah Francis Goss/Beer Retailer
1923/Elijah Francis Goss/Beer Retailer
1926/Mrs E Fredericks/Beer Retailer
If it the right Henry they lived in the next street at one time
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Plenty to sort through, thanks for the info so far, will see if I can gather any hints from my mother somehow as well to try and tie it together
Tarquin Christian
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I'm not sure if this adds to the discussion but Esther Barnett (nee Cootner) was my 2nd great grandmother. She married William Stickland in 1887 and by 1911 she was widowed and living at 20 Sheridon St. She married Samuel Barnett around 1914 and died in 1933 whilst still living at Sheridon St.
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Thanks Lisa, It all helps me with my tree as my mother doesn't like to talk about it as Henry left her mother with all the children to look after. They moved to Ilford after he left them without any support but I'm looking for his death and possible grave at the moment