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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Cnthree3 on Sunday 11 March 18 19:28 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help me pinpoint James Mastersons birth and death?
I have applied for one death certificate already which turned out not to be him (Deaths Sep 1856
MASTERSON James Liverpool 8b 306) - There is another death in Liverpool about the same time - not sure if that is a duplicate entry.
James Masterson identified from Birth certificate of his daughter Sarah Masterson (1851 - ), living then at 30 wood street Hume manchester. He married Sarah Ann Bruce (confirmed again by daughter sarah's birth certificate)
1851 census has him living at the same address and 22 years of age, Born Manchester married to Sarah Ann.
There are rent book entries for a James masterson, but no way of confirming if these are him. They stop 1856.
1861 census shows sarah ann a widow. But i can not find any death in the Hulme area, nor confirm his date of birth or find him in the 1841 census.
any ideas??
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If Sarah (her mother) is a widow in 1861 and 1871 who do all the little children in 1871 belong to :-X
In 1871 there is
William 8
Thomas 6
James 4
Ada 1
Ada has no mothers maiden name but James and Thomas have Bruce.
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These are the illegitimate Siblings of Sarah. Her Mother, Sarah Ann, went on to married James Atherton, once he was widowed. Unfortunately 2 years after they were married James died as well. Sarah ann went on to marry again and yet again that husband died shortly after marrying Sarah Ann. I think the children are James', but not obtained certificates there yet - I am looking at sarah's fathers side at the moment, James masterson. Because I cannot find the 1841 census for him, I don't know his parents, and am not sure of his death or birth either.
An interesting family!
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Interesting indeed!
I think one of the middle names for James was Atherton or Anderton so maybe he was the father of that one.
I can't see anything for James senior either and whilst this is by no means conclusive I checked a couple of the children's marriages and he isn't down as deceased. Maybe they just split up and she claimed to be widowed :-\
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which children's marriages did you check?
thanks for looking!
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I think it was Sarah and Elizabeth Ann but will check again for you.
Yes Sarah in 1871 has father James a velvet finisher and
Elizabeth Ann in 1875 has father James a velvet finisher
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Eleanor was another sister wasn't she?
Her marriage 1868 has father James a finisher
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Marriage may give his father or more info on origins? Does not help with potential death though.
James Masterson - Sarah Ann Bruce
Stockport, Cheshire
Qtr 4 1848
Volume 19
Page number 316
Added: marriage online, father James, occ dyer. Both full age. Marriage 17 Dec 1848 Stockport. Parish St. Mary. Brides father Thomas, occ dyer.
Cas
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1851 reference HO107; Piece: 2221; Folio: 406; Page: 22
James Masterson 22
Sarah Ann Masterson 21
Ellinor Masterson 1
think Ellinor is
MASTERSON, HELENA BRUCE
GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 20 Page 215
Baptism 9 Oct appears to show forename as Selena.
Not having any luck with 1841 so far....but will keep looking.
I have some Mastersons in Manchester in d-i-law's tree; but Susannah married 1838 was born in Dublin. However if James b ca 1828's father James was also in textile industry, more likely to be living in Lancashire.
ADDED: Having said that, I found a 15 Nov 1808 burial for a James Masterson in Manchester so there were Mastersons living there in the very early 1800s.
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The age for the 1856 James Masterson death from GRO index:
MASTERSON, JAMES 46
GRO Reference: 1856 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 206
This could just possibly be James snr - what was the occupation/address on death certificate? And informant?
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You could be onto something there.
Could this be the same chap in 1841 Liverpool?
James Masterson ** 35 born Scotland
Ellen Masterson 40 born Scotland
I can't read his occupation.
** sorry it's transcribed as Matherson not Masterson but hard to read clearly :-\
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Good find: HO107; Piece: 558; Folio: 11; Page: 14;
Yes very difficult occupation, there seem to be 2 enumerator scores through it. Shortening of Carpenter, Cooper, or Gen .... ???
ADDED: Can we find this James in 1851? And wouldn't you expect a 12-13 yr old James to be with parents in 1841?
ADDED 2:
Postem from freebmd against Deaths Sep 1856 [possibly added by cnthree3]
MASTERSON James Liverpool 8b 306
Age 46. DOD 19 Aug 1856. OCC - Pensioner from 47th Regiment of Foot. CoD - Cholerarie Diarrhoea 16 hours. Informant - Edward Masterson, Birchfield Barracks
The other entry
Deaths Sep 1856
Masterson James Liverpool 8b 206
is I suspect the same entry but a different interpretation of the page number [GRO index only has page 306].
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yes, I came to the same conclusions as you both re death and applied for death cert - but wrong one - so added the Postum. Thanks for trying so hard tho!
Added - also my James Masterson was born Manchester per 1851 census.
Added - James must have been dead by 1873 because his wife Sarah Ann remarried. assuming she did not commit bigamy of course. There is a James Masterson who died in 1863, in Salford, which is not far from Hulme. perhaps this is him, even though the dates not make sense.
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There is a James Masterson who died in 1863, in Salford, which is not far from Hulme. perhaps this is him, even though the dates not make sense.
The GRO index shows his age as 0 and there is a corresponding birth in Salford the previous quarter so I think you can rule him out.
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There are some marriages with father James Masterson dyer - could they be siblings to James junior?
Might be worth following tracing them back just in case.
Marriage 1855 Catherine Masterson 22 father James dyer
Witnesses Thomas Bruce (wasn't that James' wifes name?)
Sarah Ann Masterson
Marriage 1853 Felix Masterson 20 father James dyer
Felix is a velvet finisher same as James junior
Could be onto something there
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>:( wish i had waited- just paid for the death certificate. however I may find this child is related in some way, since the address is so close.
It is so frustrating not to be able to find James birth or death, and therefore his own ancestors.
However you are spot on with Catherine - this is a new child that I did not know about. I only knew of the three daughters, Helena, Elizabeth and Sarah and the illegitimate boys. Thanks for this - a real find. :)
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I'm thinking Catherine and Felix could be siblings to James (had the same father James a dyer)
but having trouble finding them before they married.
Felix says he is born Manchester. Can't find Catherine (married George Dean)
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which James Jnr are you talking about - i only have one whom I think is not James Snr son - James Henry A masterson, born 1863. have I missed a son?
I have not been able to find the marriages of Felix and Catherine either that shoe James as father - where did you see these?
mnay thanks again!
Added - found Catherine - she is defo a sibling! thank you !!!
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Sorry I'm confusing you as well as myself!
I'm talking about the original James the one whose death you are looking for, the one married to Sarah Ann Bruce.
The marriages are on ancestry website. They all have father James a dyer and all born close enough to be siblings - maybe.
Certainly the one with witnesses Sarah Ann Masterson and Thomas Bruce have to mean something!
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1861? Smith St, Deansgate
Thomas Cartwright 82 - beamer in cotton factory, b Bolton
Phenix Masterson 26 - grandson, finisher in dye house [Felix - but believe this may be his grandfather in law, given Elizabeth's maiden name]
Elizabeth Masterson 25
Agnes Masterson 5
Mary Ann Masterson 3
James Masterson 6/12
John Oddy 62 - lodger
Foster St, Hulme. All b Manchester
George Frederick Deane 29
Catherine Deane 27
James M Deane 2
Charles Deane 1/12
Thomas Deane 1/12
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That looks right well done Mabel.
I can't find births for any of the Dean/Deane children to cross check maiden name.
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1871 took a bit of finding for Catherine down as K Dean
George Dean 41
K 37
Charles 10
Thomas 10
John Robt 4
Joseph Hy 4 months
Henry Owen 24 boarder
Robt Cartwright 23 boarder
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James M is James Masterson - not doing v well on the registrations, but have some baptisms and burials
Samuel Dean buried 10 Jan 1858 aged 11 months, Died 6 Jan, teething. Hulme, St George, Parents George & Catherine. Fleet St, [RC noted at side of entry]
[birth reg mmn Masterson can be found]
George Frederick Dean buried 18 Aug 1861, died 14 August aged 2 y 7m, convulsions. Hulme, St George, parents George &
Catherine, Foster St
Baptisms
James Masterson Dean 13 Mar 1859 Hulme, St George - mmn Masterson, Foster St, Father a carter, Married at Cathc, 1856
Twins - same birth date given, Feb 16 1861
Charles Marginson Dean 28 Apr 1861 Manchester, St Peter - father George, a carter
Thomas Dean 28 Apr 1861 Manchester, St Peter
Another George Frederick is b 1883 1863, mmn Masterson, CHorlton district, William Henry in 1868 and Joseph Henry 1871
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Hello,
Marriage
1st November 1827 1 Nov 1827, Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
James Masterson, Widower, Dyer and Susannah Masterson
Marriage
23rd May 1839. Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Susannah Masterson, widow - Father Bryan Masterson
William Owens, father Joseph Owen
1851 2221 pg 9. (Damaged census)
William Owen 30 yrs Dyer Journeyman
Susannah Owen 40 yrs
Catherine Owen 19 yrs
Foler Owen 16 yrs. Dyer apprentice
Jane Owen 11 yrs
Henry Owen
Thomas Owen
Charlotte Owen 2 yrs
‘Foler’ could be Felix.
Heywood
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If you search censuses for J M born abt 1830, Manchester there are just a few.
They are Patients, Prisoners, Convicts.
There is one interesting one
West Yorkshire County Lunatic Asylum
1871 4622/62/23
J M 39 yrs married Dyer b Manchester
It could be anyone with initials J M but I have been wondering about it.
Heywood
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Here is the Owen/s family in 1841 transcribed as Ewens
1841 570/32/14
Rowes ??? Street
William Ewens 20 yrs Dyer b Ireland
Susanna Ewens 20 yrs b Ireland
Patrick Ewens 15 yrs Cotton Factory b Ireland
James Ewens 10 yrs Dyer b in county
Felix Ewens 5 yrs born in county
Jane Ewens 1 yr born in county
William Owens and Susannah Masterson lived in Rowe Street on marriage.
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This looks like James and Susannah Masterson
Catholic records Manchester- search each name separately but just an index
http://www.mlfhs.org.uk/data/catholic_search.php
James Masterson baptised St Chad’s - 1828
James Masterson Father of James Masterson
James Masterson father of Felix baptised St Chad’s 1835
Felix baptised 1835
John MASTERSON 1837 at Manchester, St. Chad
Father James
Susannah Masterson mother of James Masterson baptised at St Chad's 1828
Susannah Masterson mother of Charlotte Owen baptised St Wilfred’s Hulme 1848
There are other Masterson baptisms which may be the children of your James and also Dean baptisms.
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Marriage
23rd May 1839. Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Susannah Masterson, widow - Father Bryan Masterson
William Owens, father Joseph Owen
This is my daughter in law's family, mentioned in reply #8!! She is descended via daughter Charlotte Owen 1848 married James Burton in Telford in 1871; daughter Minnie Burton 1888 married Charles Rowlands in Salford in 1908; daughter Charlotta Rowlands 1908 married Percy Stamp in Hendon in 1940.
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Marriage
23rd May 1839. Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Susannah Masterson, widow - Father Bryan Masterson
William Owens, father Joseph Owen
This is my daughter in law's family, mentioned in reply #8!!
Interesting. :)
Is your daughter in law’s ancestor an Owen?
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Yes, just added route of descent to previous reply.
ADDED: Charlotte 1848 was the second daughter named Charlotte; first lived 1841 - 1845.
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All- wow!! this is fantastic! I am going to work through it all now and see where it takes me - thank you so very very much. I will reply again when i follow all the leads through, but there are some very exciting leads here- and Josey - we may be distant relatives! how amazing this family tree hobby is.
thank you so very much for your time researching all this for me.
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1841 570/32/14
Rowes ??? Street
William Ewens 20 yrs Dyer b Ireland
Susanna Ewens 20 yrs b Ireland
Patrick Ewens 15 yrs Cotton Factory b Ireland
James Ewens 10 yrs Dyer b in county
Felix Ewens 5 yrs born in county
Jane Ewens 1 yr born in county
William Owens and Susannah Masterson lived in Rowe Street on marriage.
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Just cottoning on [sorry if I am slow here ;D] & recapping here: are we thinking that James b 1828 & Felix b 1835 are children of James & Susannah Masterson but have taken step father's name of Owen(s)? Patrick Owens presumably a brother of William?
This looks like James and Susannah Masterson
http://www.mlfhs.org.uk/data/catholic_search.php
James Masterson baptised St Chad’s 1828 James Masterson Father of James Masterson
Felix baptised St Chad’s 1835 James Masterson father of Felix
John MASTERSON 1837 at Manchester, St. Chad Father James
Susannah Masterson mother of James Masterson baptised at St Chad's 1828
Susannah Masterson mother of Charlotte Owen baptised St Wilfred’s Hulme 1848
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That’s what it looks like to me, Josey, but just my opinion.
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It seems that way to me as well.
I have found the marriage record for James and Susanna. interestingly Susanna's maiden name is the same as her married name - this is very unusual I would have thought. IN addition James is shown as a widower, so there must have been a wife before hand too. so a lot more for me to go at.
I have decided to join the MLFHS to get access to some of the records.
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Interesting to see that 1827 record thank you. Susannah was marked as a widow on the 1839 marriage certificate but as her father was named as Bryan Masterson I somehow thought that maybe she had married under her maiden name not knowing this was also her married name. Even if I had known she had been married before, I may not have taken it any further at the moment as my d-i-law is descended from a child with William Owen.
Disregarding the age of 20 in 1841 HO107/570/Bk17/32/14, Susannah shows as age 40 born Dublin in 1851 HO107; Piece: 2221; Page: 9 and 50 in 1861 RG 9; Piece: 2943; Folio: 27; Page: 7; 2 Cheetham St so born ca 1810-11. Therefore she was only 16 or so when she married James Masterson in 1827. Perhaps there was a small community of Irish Mastersons in Manchester and both James & Susannah came from it - James a cousin or uncle? She is a bit too young to have come over on her own. The earliest Masterson burial on http://www.mlfhs.org.uk/data/catholic_search.php is 1843, so later than we would look for James' first wife or Susannah's parents.
1871 - this family RG10; Piece: 3995; Folio: 40; Page: 26 has William same age as Susannah & a daughter Ellen
William Owen 57 general warehouseman b Stretford
Susanah Owen 58 b Stretford
Ellen Owen 19 d b Manchester
Frances A Owen 5 d b Manchester
William Johnson Brook 51 visitor hawker b Stretford
our Susannah's William was a dyer in every other census so I am not sure about this family
Ellen may be
Births Sep 1849
Owen Ellen Chorlton 20 229 entry sadly missing from GRO index for MMN.
Possible deaths but would still need finding on 1871:
Deaths Dec 1874
Owen Susannah 64 Chorlton 8c 465
Deaths Mar 1877
OWEN Susannah 64 Chorlton 8c 569
For the 1877 death there is a burial in Stretford Mar 7 1877 Susannah Owen 64 abode Hulme. I have ordered the 1877 death cert & will post details in due course.
William is a widow in 1881.
1881 RG11; Piece: 3898; Folio: 70; Page: 26; 3 Cross St
Julia Beatty 46
William Owen 60 dyer wid b Dublin Ireland
James Cornish 50
I have not found Susannah's birth on rootsireland. Bryan Masterson was a farmer from Susannah's 1839 marriage certificate.
For the back burner possible siblings to Susannah though not Dublin
[ancestry]
Name: Eleonor Masterson
Baptism Age: 0
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 1800
Baptism Date: 6 Feb 1800
Baptism Place: Kells, Meath, Ireland
Diocese: Meath
Father: Bryan Masterson
Mother: Rose Bennett
Name: Mary Masterson
Baptism Age: 0
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 1802
Baptism Date: 26 Mar 1802
Baptism Place: Kells, Meath, Ireland
Diocese: Meath
Father: Bryan Masterson
Mother: Ann
Name: Cathn Masterson
Baptism Age: 0
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 1809
Baptism Date: 2 Jan 1809
Baptism Place: Collinstown, Westmeath, Ireland
Parish Variants: Collinstown and Fore, Fore
Diocese: Meath
Father: Bryan Masterson
Mother: Mary Cullen
Name: Bridget Masterson
Baptism Age: 0
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 1818
Baptism Date: 22 Jan 1818
Baptism Place: Kilskyre, Meath, Ireland
Parish Variants: Ballinlough
Diocese: Meath
Father: Bryan Masterson
Mother: Ann Hand
Also for the back burner
Deaths Sep 1862
Masterson Brian age 24 Fylde 8E 282 so too young to be Susannah's father but may be a son - have note to self to find on 1861...
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I found this 1826 Salford burial - a possible for James Masterson's first wife?
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The 1871 suggestion
1871 - this family RG10; Piece: 3995; Folio: 40; Page: 26 has William same age as Susannah & a daughter Ellen
William Owen 57 general warehouseman b Stretford
Susanah Owen 58 b Stretford
Ellen Owen 19 d b Manchester
Frances A Owen 5 d b Manchester
William Johnson Brook 51 visitor hawker b Stretford
our Susannah's William was a dyer in every other census so I am not sure about this family
Ellen may be
Births Sep 1849
Owen Ellen Chorlton 20 229 entry sadly missing from GRO index for MMN.
Don;t think this is "our" William & Susannah. They appear to be in Hulme in 1861 with Alice b c1847 and Ellen b c1852. There are some Barrett lodgers - there's an Alice Owen mmn Barrett birth that matches
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OK thanks Mabel, backs up my thoughts. It may be that one of the 1874 or 1877 deaths are this 1871 Susannah, will wait to see details of the 1877 death first.
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William is a widow in 1881.
1881 RG11; Piece: 3898; Folio: 70; Page: 26; 3 Cross St
Julia Beatty 46
William Owen 60 dyer wid b Dublin Ireland
James Cornish 50
William is a widower in 1871 too.
1871 3978/15/24
9 Cross Street Ardwick
Julia Beatty 36 yrs
William Owen 50 yrs widr Fustian Dyer b Ireland
Martha P Waltson 39 yrs
There is this burial in Manchester burial records- it is a pay site for further information
http://www.burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk
Susannah Owen 23rd February 1870 buried in Philips Park Cemetery ‘I Roman Catholic’ section, grave 20. Looks to be a public grave.
There is a death
Susan Owen 60 yrs
March quarter 1870 Chorlton vol 08C pg 464
Heywood
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Oh good finds heywood, thank you; I hadn't been able to find him in 1871; So 1877 Susannah Owen death certificate will be superfluous! Oh well, I'll put the details on freebmd so it won't be wasted.
1870 death & burial look consistent, may get that death certificate to confirm.
Bit off topic ....
ADDED a possible for William there is this burial [from site mentioned above] haven't bought any credits for details.
22/02/1890 William Owen Philips Park Cemetery H Roman Catholic 972 [another public grave with 16 lairs]
which fits with this death though age a little out.
Deaths Mar 1890
Owen William 75 Chorlton 8c 580
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Hi - there is some really interesting finds here. I wanted to find James' death (and still do) but found lots of other family members.
I have not managed to find what distant relatives Susannah Masterson and James Masterson were before they married.
However I do think Heywoods asylum find may well be the right JM. The age, occupation and birth place are spot on - too much of a coincidence I feel when James can not be traced anywhere else.
In addition I have located a criminal record of 12 months imprispmnet for James Masterson in manchester on Dec 1861. Whilst not explaining the absence of a census record in 1861 for him, it might explain the breakdown of the marriage and perhaps Sarah Ann deciding to say she was a widow on the two census 61 / 71.
Sarah Ann went on to have 5 children after 1861 and saying she is a widow. I think she was having an affair with James Atherton - who was clearly a family friend, (James Masterson was witness at his wedding) and the later 5 children are his. Sarah Ann and James Anderson married in 1873 - when he became a widow.
Still NT of James Mastersons death tho!
Thanks for all your help.