RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: blackpool on Thursday 15 March 18 13:19 GMT (UK)
-
Does anyone know why the phrase "with consent of parents" appears on a marriage certificate? The obvious inference is that one or both participants were under age, but according to all the subsequent census information, neither of them were underage. The marriage took place in Chirk, Denbighshire in 1830 if that helps.
-
The priest could have made a mistake, there are parish entries that have "with consent of congregation" and others "with consent of friends"
Perhaps the incumbent has written something in the "consent of" box every time ?
Stan
-
The marriage took place in Chirk, Denbighshire in 1830 if that helps.
Could you give their names, please? I have access to nearly all the Chirk records.
Gadget
-
Just found them - Thomas Jones and Margaret Jones, 4th Dec 1830.
I had one 10 years earlier in Chirk that was 'with consent of parents'
-
Tryin to find out when the wording on the forms changed. The 1812 ones didn't have the 'with consent of...' included, The 1815 onwards, did.
Added - the 'with consent' appears on the Chirk records from 1813. Also - left blank in most cases.
-
That's the right marriage. It's not as though that wording appears on all the entries though is it? Could it have been left in by mistake, do you think?
-
From 1754 the marriage registers give the names and parishes of the parties, the date and place of marriage, whether by banns or licence, whether with consent of parents or guardians, and the name of the officiating minister. Also given are the names of the witnesses and signatures or marks of the spouses.
Could it have been left in by mistake, do you think?
I said it could be a mistake.
Stan
-
From 1754 the marriage registers give the names and parishes of the parties, the date and place of marriage, whether by banns or licence, whether with consent of parents or guardians, and the name of the officiating minister. Also given are the names of the witnesses and signatures or marks of the spouses.
Could it have been left in by mistake, do you think?
I said it could be a mistake.
Stan
The printed booklets that the marriage entries are written in all have 'With consent of......' printed in them from 1813* as far as the Chirk booklets are concerned. They were left blank in most cases.
This would of course have changed to the statutory forms from Sept q 1837.
*not in the 1812 ones.
Eg shown below.
-
Someone raising a similar query here:
https://genealogy.stackexchange.com/questions/9931/why-would-consent-of-parents-be-needed-for-1815-marriage-between-26-and-33-year
-
From 1754 the marriage registers give the names and parishes of the parties, the date and place of marriage, whether by banns or licence, whether with consent of parents or guardians, and the name of the officiating minister. Also given are the names of the witnesses and signatures or marks of the spouses.
Stan
I was quoting from http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/article/10575/Banns-and-marriages-1754-1812
Stan
-
Thanks Stan - it still doesn't explain why that statement would be needed though.
-
It could be that the Diocese of St Asaph included it - see my previous post of 14.49.
It was definitely there!
Gadget
-
The printed booklets that the marriage entries are written in all have 'With consent of......' printed in them from 1813* as far as the Chirk booklets are concerned. They were left blank in most cases.
This would of course have changed to the statutory forms from Sept q 1837.
*not in the 1812 ones.
Eg shown below.
(http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=789811.0;attach=476257;image)
-
Reading again through the query that I referred to earlier
https://genealogy.stackexchange.com/questions/9931/why-would-consent-of-parents-be-needed-for-1815-marriage-between-26-and-33-year
It could be as a courtesy - the parents were present and consented.
Gadget
-
Vicars in those days were accepted at the tables of the rich and famous and they wouldn't want any scandal to happen in their church. I think the church was covering itself against any claims of fraud by an irate parent who might happen to be a "person of substance", thus, regardlesa of the ages of the bride and groom, we see the phrase "with consent of ... ".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_Act_1753
-
I have "with consent of parents" for marriages of 2 sisters who were both over 21 when each was married in 1816 and 1820. Bridegrooms were 22 and 26. Both parents of the girls were dead when the elder daughter was still in her teens. Father & mother of both grooms were alive when their sons married. On looking at images of the marriage register I saw that all weddings on those pages had "with consent of parents".
-
Thanks for all the reassuring answers. I have the Chirk transcripts and it's clear that only a few entries have the "with consent of parents" phrase included, so it's not the case that it was a standard phrase that they used, which presumably suggests they were under age, or why else was it included? However as I said originally, neither of the couple seem to have been underage, if we look at their ages on various censuses, but, as their names are Thomas Jones and Margaret Jones - in Wales! - , I have no other way of finding them if I can't definitely pin down a birth year.
-
Thomas Jones and Margaret Jones - in Wales! - ,
I know the feeling:- James Wilson and Ann(e) Weir - in Scotland!
-
I recall that one of the witnesses to the marriage was a William Jones, who made his mark. He could be a parent or brother to one of them. This should narrow the field down.
Where were the couple in the 1841, what were their ages then, what did they call their children (often used family names), who were their neighbours, etc., etc. As I said earlier, many of my ancestors were in Chirk at that time.
Gadget
-
Thanks for the continued interest Gadget. They had 3 children in Chirk - Ruth in 1831, Mary circa 1838 (can't find the bap though she appears on censuses) and John in 1838. They lived at Blackpark and Thomas was a collier. After that they moved to Bilston in the West Midlands. On the various censuses, Thomas says he was born in Chirk; Margaret only survived until 1857 and on the 51 census, helpfully says she came from Wales! There are no baptisms of either a Thomas or Margaret Jones to a William in Chirk at an appropriate time, and I can't see a family who had both a William and a Thomas or a William and a Margaret. Not easy is it?
-
They must have rubbed shoulders with my ancestors then as most of them were living Black Park at that time - the odd one at Forge or Cherry Orchard farm. I'll have a look at some of my off line records.
Also, although saying Chirk, they might have been St Martins/Acrefair/Ruabon.
(I didn't have any Joneses until I went back to the previous generation and then going back further, I had 8 separate line - not Chirk!)
Have you tried the tithe maps:
https://places.library.wales/
I found some of mine around Black Park on them.
Gadget
Added - what religion where they?
-
Was Ruth bpt at Weslyan Methodist, Wrexham.
This states that Thomas and Margaret were living Pen y Bryn, St Martins then. This is just over the Ceiriog from Pontyblew and then you follow the road around to Black Park. I've done that walk so many times in my youth :)
It's equidistant from Black Park Colliery and Ifton Colliery - not sure when Ifton was opened (later if I recall). My family worked in both.
John was then baptised 1938 in Chirk (parish registers). I wonder if they were twins and Mary was missed - it did happen! Or, they could have moved to Black Park just before John was born.
-
Thanks for the link to the tithe maps. It's not the most user friendly of web sites is it? I shall persevere. My major problem with Thomas Jones is not knowing when he was born. According to the censuses , he was 25 in 1841, 40 in 1851, 55 in 1861, and 68 in 1871 - and yes, it is the same person as he has the same children with him throughout. Not very helpful!
-
His birth date seems to retreat with each census!
I had a look for him on the tithe map but he wasn't listed in Chirk. Not all of mine were either as they didn't rent or own any land. He was likely still across the border in Pen y bryn, St Martins. I think there are some English tithe maps now online but haven't looked at them - will investigate.
Gadget
-
Looking again at the tithe maps, I can see that there is a Thomas Jones occupying a property whose map is centred on Pen y Bryn so that may well be him as that was where he gave his address at the baptism of his daughter Ruth in 1831. Not sure where it gets me though.
And in answer to an earlier question, they baptised their children at Bilston at a Methodist chapel and Margaret was buried there.
-
Hmm - my map doesn't show him - must be further in - I have 2 around there for a Robert Jones.
Have you checked St Martins or the non-c records for possible baptisms for Thomas or Margaret?
-
My mistake - the map is at Pont-y-blew - pretty close though. The St Martin parish church records are online but not the methodist chapels and I live in Yorkshire so it's not just a matter of nipping down the road to check. It will have to go on an ever expanding list of things to look up.
-
My Parishes were at Pontyblew forge then :)
I have the Denbighshire non-cs and will check them. Also, I think RG4 (non-c records) are now on Family Search.