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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Moray (Elginshire) => Topic started by: poirot on Sunday 18 March 18 15:09 GMT (UK)
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My paternal grandmother Jessie Robertson Keir was the illegitimate daughter of Jane Robertson.
She was born 7th feb 1866 in Boharm, Elgin. In the register she is entered as Jessie Robertson and only her mother's name Jane Robertson is entered.
In the marriage register to Robert Littlejohn 2nd July 1891 she calls herself Jessie Keir and her father is entered as William Keir a farmer. William Keir and Jane Robertson never married.
On her death certificate William Keir is entered as her reputed father.
Sadly her daughter Ida died on her eighth birthday in Jan 1909 and my father was born in March the same year.
Jessie was found dead on Christmas day that year on the shore in Lossiemouth due to drowning.
I have found a possible William Keir on the 1861 & 1871 censuses in Boharm and just wondered if Jessie was allowed to take his surname without his permission or would she have had to go through the courts
Poirot.
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I think all of my numerous ancestral illegitimate births from Moray and next door Banffshire have taken the father's surname. In some cases the parents were admonished by the Kirk Session. If a sheriff court paternity suit had taken place there may well be a RCE attached to the birth registration on Scotland's People. (Scottish Indexes have been indexing the sheriff court paternity cases - don't think they covered Elgin or Banff but hopefully they will).
William
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Thank you so much for your quick response.
It is such a sad family story as my father never knew his mother and was brought up by his eldest sister.
poirot
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That is really sad that your father never knew his mother. Is there an RCE to her death? This happens if there was an enquiry into cause of death.
Many illegitimate children took their father' surname with or without permission in those days. An RCE as suggested might help you clear this up. I have death certificates which also state reputed father.
RCE's can be a valuable source of information.
My friend's father was born in 1900 with only his mother's name on his birth certificate. The family have the original. She said it would have been nice to have a name for her grandfather. Last year she had her 70th birthday and did not want any presents. I do not know what prompted me but I went on to Scotland People and looked at her father's birth entry and there was an RCE giving her grandfather's name. On her birthday I gave her an envelope containing a copy of the RCE and she could not stop crying and said it was her best present ever. This is what really makes our research worthwhile.
Hope you are as lucky as I was.
Dorrie
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I didn't know what a RCE was but have just looked at the death certificate again and handwritten on the back is the following:-
(Vol 2) Page 123 Register of Corrected Entries for the Parish of Drainie in the County of Elgin.
The following report result of a Precognition has been received touching the death of Jessie Littlejohn Registered under No 56 in the Register of Deaths for the year 1909.
I think this refers to the way she died as it says that she drowned in the sea opposite the Old Battery, Lossiemouth. The certificate says she was found on the shore near the swimming baths.
Rumour had it in that my father's three sisters thought that their mother was suffering from milk fever.
poirot
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Hello Poirot,
RCEs on deaths tend to relate to the manner of death or suspicious deaths such as drowning.
RCEs on births will list corrections to the child's name, parents, etc. Have you tried searching for a Jessie Keir in the same year for birth? I came across one case where a child was reregistered about thirty years later with the father's name. There was no RCE connected to the original birth certificate only an additional entry for her other surname.
Hope this helps.
Hannah
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I do think that the William Keir you have identified in Boharm is the most likely candidate for Jessie's father. He seems to have married Jane McWilliam in Boharm in 1868 - I have seen this pattern repeated again and again in rural Banffshire: go on and marry someone other than the mother of the illegitimate child.
There is an entry for William Keir in libindx.He died in Cullen 26 April 1907 and appears to have gone from being a farmer to a grocer. The entry quotes a headstone reference for him and various newspaper extracts. There is an obituary for him in the Banffshire Advertiser.
The Scottish Calendar of Confirmations shows that this William Keir left a will.
William
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Just looked at Scotlands People again under Keir from her birth in 1866 until her death in 1909 and there is not a further entry.
I really appreciate all the help i have been receiving but it looks like she just decided to use her father's surname.
I think her mother was sure that william Keir was the father and wondered why he did not make an honest woman of her.
He went on to marry a lady 14 years younger than himself and was a Farmer of 112 acres employing 9 people so maybe she was not of the same social standing as her father was a Crofter of 5 acres.
I was typing this as your reply was sent but will post it anyway
poirot
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I have found a possible William Keir on the 1861 & 1871 censuses in Boharm and just wondered if Jessie was allowed to take his surname without his permission or would she have had to go through the courts.
The was no law or rule to stop her being known by any name she liked, and she would not have had to go to court.
In 1866, and in Boharm, there is a pretty good chance that the Kirk Session took an interest in Jane's unmarried pregnancy. I recommend a look at the records of Boharm Kirk Session. These have been digitised, and they are supposed to become available 'soon' on Scotland's People, but I have no idea when. In the meantime you either have to go, or get someone to go on your behalf, to the National Records of Scotland in Edinburgh, or to one of the archives that has the link to the digitised version.
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As I live in Cheshire a visit to Edinburgh is not possible so I will have to wait until the records become available on Scotlands People.
I no longer have any family members living in Scotland even though the family grave is in Lossiemouth and contain my fathers ashes.
Poirot
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I have to sit and study this....
Cos I have a William Keir married to my Margaret Sutherland in 1807 Edinburgh...
doubtful link
but interesting..
xin
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I have a William Keir married to my Margaret Sutherland in 1807 Edinburgh...
about 60 years earlier and at the other end of the country - not likely to be directly connected ;)
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I have a William Keir married to my Margaret Sutherland in 1807 Edinburgh...
about 60 years earlier and at the other end of the country - not likely to be directly connected ;)
I know / knew but there may have been 23.5 centimorgans shared across 2 DNA segments
:)
sorry :(
going now
xin
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I may be being a bit thick here but how do you search on LIBINDX.
I enter all the information and can't see a search button. When I click on search records the information I entered was cleared.
I was looking for Jane Bremner's grave which I know is in Dundurcas cemetery, Rothes plot DU42.
She was formerly Jane Robertson the mother of Jessie and was married to Alexander Bremner.
Poirot
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I may be being a bit thick here but how do you search on LIBINDX.
I enter all the information and can't see a search button. When I click on search records the information I entered was cleared.
Try entering less information.
I put in just 'Bremner' and 'Robertson' and clicked on 'Search Records' and it found Jane and one other person.
I also tried putting in just 'Du42' in the headstone field, and it found all the 9 people recorded on that stone.
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Thanks for that but for some reason it is still not working for me.
When I just entered the plot number and search records there is a list of 9 cemeteries.
I select no 8 which is Dundurcas and I don't get any further.
What am I doing wrong?
Poirot
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When I just entered the plot number and search records there is a list of 9 cemeteries.
I select no 8 which is Dundurcas and I don't get any further.
What am I doing wrong?
I don't know, but what I did was go to People Search and just put Du42 in the box where it says headstone ref, then click on Search Records.
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Success at last!
Must have been something to do with trying to view them on my iPad. Just kept going round in circles.
9 members of the family in one plot seems a bit extreme but good for me.
I have requested a photo on findagrave so hope someone can take it for me.
Thanks a lot for your help 👍
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Excellent! Glad you got there eventually.
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As it happens I was passing Dundurcas this afternoon. I'm afraid the sun was in the wrong direction!
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There's another stone mentioning Bremner right next to Du42 so I snapped that one as well.
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Wow ...
Now I wish it was my William and co :) brilliant pics.
xin
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Wow and Wow again. That is amazing. Thank you so much.
I did my DNA a few months ago and am predominantly Scottish so this got me interested again in that line.
With all the help from you lovely people I have more information that I expected.
Cheers 😍😍😍😍😍😍
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I see that Jane Bremner (on the second stone) was the wife of Robert Grant, and that Jane Robertson or Bremner's son was Robert Grant Bremner. So it seems likely that she was related.
This Jane died at Corrie, Birnie. LIBINDX says only that Corrie Farm was united with Glenchapple Farm. I know where Glenchapel is
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=57.5544&lon=-3.3536&layers=5&b=1
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1952
but I have not found Corrie.
In the 1871 census, it's in Enumeration District 1, and is listed between Bardon and Glenlatterach.
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.5723&lon=-3.3326&layers=5&b=1
It's pretty annoying because it's the only place listed in that ED that I don't know about and cannot find. (There is one other I am not 100% sure about.)
However .... the burn that flows into what is now Glenlatterach Reservoir is called the Leanoch Burn, and it is formed by the confluence of the Stripe of Loan and the Burn of Corries! Just downstream from this point there are a few rickles of stones, unnamed on the maps. I think this must be Corrie, and a pretty remote place it is too. See
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=57.5348&lon=-3.3497&layers=5&b=1 and
http://www.geograph.org.uk/browse.php?gridref=NJ1952&gridsquare=NJ&eastings=19&northings=50&setpos=Show+%3E - it's the little square in the edge of the green (forest). Click on the map to enlarge it.
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PS I had to re-size the photos to fit them on here. If you want the full size versions PM me with your e-mail address.