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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: louisa maud on Monday 16 April 18 10:02 BST (UK)
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I have for years been hunting my husband's Gt Grandfather's birth, Henry Alexander Bragg.
I have found him from his marriage onwards, on all census birth appears to be circa 1847 ish but on his death it is 1852, I have the cert, census place of birth Strand then Lambeth, have never found a birth registration or baptisms in Strand or Lambeth for him under Henry Alexander Bragg, with unusual Christian names I would have thought it would be easier,
Henry's first daughter had the name Elizabeth Caroline so I have been hunting for either an Elizabeth Bragg or Caroline as his mother , on his marriage Henry Alexander Bragg states father was Edward as an artist, we have searched that and came up with nothing at all.
There is an Elizabeth Bragg show traveller/traveller born Newington, I cannot find her anywhere else except 1871/1881 census as a show traveller born newington and a possible death. I am now wondering if Edward was an artiste which would make sense IF Elizabeth Bragg was his wife, show traveller, I have tried entering show traveller in the box on Ancestry but nothing comes up,1871 and 1881 she is a widow, can't find anything else about her or him
I have also put a search for H A Bragg on London RC. prior to this
Any help much appreciated
Louisa Maud
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Hi
Can't be sure, but from her age and place of birth (Horsleydown) in 1881, could she have been the wife of James Bragg?
Possible in Newington in 1851
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGK3-2DS
Maybe James was the chap who had a refreshment stall in Deptford in 1861?
She was buried at Brookwood, 10 March 1882.
John
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Hello Jon, thank you for your reply, below is the one I came up with
1871 was a bit difficult RG10/619 F 86 P 68, looks like, living Garden Place Newington
I will have a look at marriages to a James
Louisa Maud
1881 Census RG11/ 550/91 p 29
Newington, Westmoreland Road
Elizabeth Bragg widow age 77 show traveller pauper b Horseley Down, Surrey
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Hi again
Have you seen this one?
23 April 1870, St Mary Lambeth
Edward Albert Bragg, full age, Bachelor, Shoe Maker, father Edward Albert Bragg decd, Artist
+
Ellen Matthews
Residence for both Crozier Street.
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I have found him in Crozier St 1871 with Ellen
I think his father was Edward Parker Bragg who married Sarah Phillippo , got them on 1851 but young Edward never with them again after 1851, 1861 as a visitor elsewhere and by 1871 was married
This is the nearest I have got with the father being an artist, I did notice Ed Powell was once again a witness at the marriage, he is on the marriage of Henry Alexander and Eliza Linton 1869, a real mess up with HA's surname, found her first
Thank you Jon, I will have to delve a bit more, I am going to order Elizabeth Bragg's death cert and go from there, appreciate all of your help Jon
LM
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Phillippo is interesting.
I think that couple he is visiting in Westminster in 1861 are called Mann. But may say Man? (Mace on ancestry). If so, the youngest son, Walter M could be
June 1858 Westminster
Mann, Walter Matthew
mother Phillippo
John
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I think his father was Edward Parker Bragg who married Sarah Phillippo , got them on 1851
That was fast! I couldn't see him in 1851, but got them now, Brogy and Brogg on FamilySearch!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGN9-MFX
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Try as I may I cannot find anything else out about Edward and Sarah Phillippo and their family after 1851, also something strange is happening to Ancestry yet again today, comes up with numerous titles and when I click there are zero matches, something has happened over the last few day to Ancestry
The only baptism I can find is for the child Sarah born 1843 ish, no other baptisms and can't find registration either
Thank you Jon, I am giving up today as Ancestry isn't playing ball and it is frustrating
LM
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Yes, the ancestry search engines have been playing up for a while. And getting worse!
There's a Rosina Bragg, 12, and Caroline Bragg, 10, in Lambeth Workhouse Industrial School in 1861. A death of a Sarah Ann Bragg in Lambeth in 1857 age 38. Could that be her? Don't know! Lambeth must come into it somehow?
Take it that your man must be "Elaxander Brogg" in 1851, it's a very poor job by the enumerator!
John
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I am going to check on mother's maiden name of these children tomorrow to see if that make any sense and perhaps I can tie a family together
Many Thanks Jon
LM
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The problem I am having is lack of registrations and baptisms, pity I can't find Elisabeth Bragg on 1861 but my guess is she is miss transcribed one again
Will try to follow up Edward the artist
Louisa Maud
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Another interesting bit I have found, looks like an Henry Bragg married a Martha Phillippo, shown as maiden name sometimes as Phillips
1861 he has a nephew Alexander Bragg living with him, perhaps Alexander took on the name of Henry because his uncle was kind to him and perhaps took him in, all supposition at the moment,
I wonder if he is my elusive Henry Alexander Bragg
LM
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Interesting that Henry Wollen in that 1861 census was a carman which was Henry Alexander's occupation on 1871 census. Looks like the family split up after the death of Sarah Ann.
Martha Phillippo married Henry Wollon 16 Nov 1845 in the parish of St Martin in the Fields, his father George, farmer, and hers Matthew, gardener. Witnesses Charlotte Connall(?) & Charles Perks.
Edward Parker Bragg, artist, married Sarah Ann Phillippo 19 July 1842 his father Thomas, seal engraver, and hers Matthew, farmer. Witnesses Marian Augusta Bragg, John Jeffery Mudge and Susannah Maria Mudge.
1841 census Chapter St, St John the Evangelist HO107/737/18 folio 28 pg 13
Sarah Philippo 20
Martha 20
Emma 3
only Emma born in county
Martha baptised 14 March 1819 in Colkirk, Norfolk daughter of Matthew & Charlotte
Sarah Ann bp 8 Nov 1820 on Colkirk dau of Matthew & Charlotte
Sophia bp 20 June 1824 Letheringsett, Norfol dau of Matthew & Charlotte - she married Thomas Mann 12 July 1843 in St Mary's Lambeth
Matthew Philippo married Charlotte Sidle 15 Oct 1811 Stanfield, Norwich.
Charlotte buried 31 Dec 1828 aged in Hackney, address Union St, Newington
Matthew, widower, married Catherine Bynorth 22 Aug 1830 in West Hackney
1851 Powells Cottage, Turnham Green, Chiswick HO107/1699 folio 429 pg 30
Matthew Philipo head mar 62 ag lab b. Norfolk, Fransham
Catherine wife 60 b. Herts, Sawbridgeworth
Charlotte dau 21 b. Stoke Newington
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Goodness me Osprey, you have really been busy on my behalf, huge thank you
I am collating all of the info to see where it goes, to be honest I wonder if my henry Alexander Bragg ever was a Bragg and the Edward artist was just made up, I have looked at every Henry Alexander from 1842 to 1852, birth constant on census till his death when it is a few years out but it is him
Thought he might have been illegitimate to Miss Phillippo but doesn't seem to be
1851 would have been the nearest census to have found him but not joy so far, excepted to find him with a mother Elizabeth or Caroline
Huge thank you Osprey
Louisa Maud
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Thank you all for your help, I have collated all the information and am sifting through it, the ER's don't reveal anything around 1869/1871 either so they weren't much help, thanks to Monica for helping me out on ER's
I am not convinced my H A Bragg was ever a Bragg, I will continue searching but calling this closed now to tidy things up a bit
Many thanks to all for your help
Happy Hunting
Louisa Maud
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I have had my thinking cap on for weeks now and I am wondering now if my theory, putting everyone's thoughts into play, that the following might be possible
19/07/1843
Marriage Edward Parker Bragg
to
Sarah Ann Phillippo
20/10/1843 baptism of daughter Sarah Ann St James Paddington born before the marriage 02/01/1843
1851
Edward Bragg 53 ARTIST
Sarah wife 36
Sarah 8
Edward 6
ALEXANDER 5
Rose 3
Caroline 1 no places of birth shown
1861
the 2 youngest girls are in a workhouse school
1861 Alexander is living as nephew with Henry and Martha Wollen, she being nee Phillippo, sister of Sarah
So now I am assuming that my Alexander, no reg found as yet, took on the name of Henry (Wollen) as it looks as if he was bringing this lad up
Edward was being shown as Edward Parker Bragg born 1790 but as yet I haven't found a death for him or his wife Sarah, only sightings so far 1851 and marriage
I wonder what you fellow Rootschatters think about this theory, although I do have more searching to do with this family
Louisa Maud
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that does seem the most likely scenario, marriage was 1842.
Possible death for Sarah Ann Bragg june qtr 1857 age 38 Lambeth vol 1d pg 155 - she was baptised in 1820 making her age suspect on the census in 1851.
Baptisms in St Marylebone to Thomas and Susanna Bragg
21 Sep 1790
Edward Parker born 10 March 1790
Georgiana Augusta born 8 July 1787
Marian Augusta born 8 July 1787 (witness to the 1842 marriage)
Thomas Augustin born 1 Aug 1783
3 May 1789
Elizabeth born 13 April
and in St Giles in the Fields
25 July 1794
Charlotte
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Strange thing is I cannot find a registration for Edward and Sarah's children, only found 1 baptism of Sarah Ann Georgina Bragg, no others, Sarah was baptised in St James Paddington and address Harrow Road Paddington,
Although I am 99.9% sure this is my henry Alexander , I am not going to add him to my huge family tree as yet, I notice 1 person had Edward and Sarah's family on Ancestry but hardly any follow up and nothing on Alexander
Many thanks for your Help Osprey, it looks as if I was up the wrong tree with Elizabeth Caroline Bragg's death
Going to do a bit more delving
Thank you also to Jon who came up with some of these details as well, think we have all turned detective on this one
Louisa Maud
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found my note about the other witnesses to the 1842 marriage, John Jeffery & Susanna Marian Mudge. Susanna Marian was born 17 July 1813(?) and baptised 25 Dec 1818 at St Anne Westminster daughter of Thomas, seal engraver, and Maria Bragg of St Martin's. She married John Jeffery Mudge 4 March 1834 at St Mary le Strand. So the daughter of Edward's brother.
;)
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Another thing that brings it all closer is, on one census Henry A Bragg put his birth place down as "Strand", then on others "Lambeth", the Wollens or one of their family (from memory) was born in "Strand". Years ago I went to St Ann's library and looked at all of the Strand area parish registers I could find none at all, but as their first daughter was baptised, I see no reason why the others weren't
LM
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Found marriage of son Edward born 1845 in 1871, only problem is father shown as Edward Albert artist dec , I feel this is a mistake on the incumbents part, (again Ed Powel is witness, my guess is he must have been either a church warden or a local who got paid as he features quite a lot as a witness)
The girls seem to have disappeared
Louisa Maud
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there's a possible Caroline Bragg 22 milliner b. Clapham on the 1871 census in Derby. RG10/3561 folio 4 pg 1 but I haven't spotted her after that as yet and no sign of Ros/ina...
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Wasn't sure about that one but have added the to the info I am collating, a real nuisance no registrations or baptisms
LM
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Don't forget
There's a Rosina Bragg, 12, and Caroline Bragg, 10, in Lambeth Workhouse Industrial School in 1861.
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No, haven't forgotten them Jonw, pity there are no workhouse records for these 2 girls before 1861, I have no idea when they entered, my own family lived in London mostly and have been easy to research but not the Bragg family, my husband's, I am the only one chasing them
Thank you
LM
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I think - from memory - it was 1856 that they first appear in the school records, but I'd have to recheck. I did look through some of the Lambeth exam books as well, for the one covering that period the ancestry people had missed out the B's in the index pages (infuriating!), but I'm not convinced any Braggs will be in them.
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I found Sarah aged 13 in Norwood School looks like 1857 along with Rosina and Caroline, if the Sarah Ann Bragg is the right death June 1857 that is about right for the girls to be in Norwood, so, I think I ought to order a death cert,
Thank you Jonw
Louisa Maud
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Norwood Schools A+D
Sarah Bragg, 13, admitted 27 March 1856
Rosina Bragg, 8, admitted 14 April 1856
Both in workhouse before the school
Neither could read
then we have
Rosina Bragg, admitted 18? April 1857, still 8!
Caroline Bragg, 8, admitted 31 May 1858, from infant school
Don't think there is discharge info for them.
Not too easy to read those entries.
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I have worked for a long time on this family, with the help of fellow Rootschatters
I think that Edward Packer Bragg and Sarah Phillippo/Phillips was in fact the parents of Alexander Bragg who later seems to be called Henry Alexander Bragg, I believe after his uncle Henry Wollen,
Edward Packer Bragg born circa 1790 fathered at least 5 children between 1843 and 1850, I believe Edward died in 1855 and Sarah 1857, as far as I can see there are no registrations for the children above or baptisms, but still looking, frustrating!!
I baptism found for Sarah Ann Georgina only
I believe I have 1851 with Edward Sarah and family but unfortunately there are no places of birth shown with my Alexander aged 6 , (later Henry Alexander)
So I am now going to invest in a few certificates
This is an old topic but I thought I would bring it up to date
Louisa Maud
Rosina and Caroline are in Lambeth workhouse as mentioned here,
1861 I find both Rosina and Caroline in Lambeth Workhouse Industrial School, Rosina aged 12 and Caroline aged 10, both showing born Lambeth, not sure where I can find more info about the workhouse
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Well folks, after all this time and quite by accident I have found a birth of a child born and died between census
Born 1872 Nellie Francesca Rosina Bragg MMN Linton
Died 1875 and buried Sept 1875 Lambeth
So looking at this I find a child with the name Rosina, was this child named after Henry Alexander's sister born to Edward mother MMN Phillipo
Louisa Maud
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Today I have ordered a death cert for Edward (Parker) Bragg, wrongly shown as Packer not Parker, I believe Edward died in 1855 , so we shall see if we are on the right lines, I think we are with your help, thank you
LM
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Hi Louisa Maud
Good luck with the certificate!
Do let us know how you get on with it.
John
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No doubt you realise that I was barking up the wrong tree, Elizabeth Bragg wasn't the mother of Henry Alexander Bragg, I spent year working on this , then with help on RC and myself finding the Wollen family it has all fallen into place, so time will tell when the cert arrives, I will let you know, as always can't wait
LM
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As promised, received cert today
I am very disappointed to receive the cert of Edward Bragg today, I feel he must be the wrong Edward Bragg
And another thing the page was shown as 178 but mine in the No column is 198
22/04/1855
St Stephens School Rochester Row, Westminster
71 years
Formerly a builder. Master
Apoplexy suddenly certified
informant Henry Bragg of same address
As far as I know Edward didn't have a son Henry, one son took on that name but he would have been 10 at the time of being an informant, surely not
Edward was an artist, not a builder
Back to the drawing board, I am loath to purchase Sarah Ann Bragg death about 1857 just in case it is another £11 down the drain
LM
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Hi LM
Sorry about your certificate, it certainly isn't the right one. So Edward has to go on the missing list.
I'm not sure that the Sarah Ann Bragg death certificate will help anyway, even if it is the right lady.
There is a burial indexed at on FS for her, 14 April 1857, with her age given as 40 (it is 38 on the death reg) Burial was at Lambeth Cemetery.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:C6C5-Y7ZM
General point - Don't forget that you can get pdfs for deaths up to 1957 for £7, which is a bit more affordable.
I've come across this one, but don't know who he is. With the "double p" in there, could they have misread the last letter?
BRAGG, WILLIAM
Mother's Maiden Surname: PHILLIPPS
GRO Reference: 1853 S Quarter in WESTMINSTER Volume 01A Page 240
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Thank you John
Yes I ought to have a pop at the pdf, not so bad to lose £7 , the only thing I need is who registered her and then follow on from there
William in the son of my Edward but shown as MMN Phillips, I suppose I can understand that the O was seen as an S but it is annoying, only a few registered, her marriage cert is definitely Phillippo
Thank you John, , much appreciated
LM