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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: chempat on Thursday 19 April 18 21:26 BST (UK)
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In 1841 living in Glasgow Vennell there is
Mary Currie 35 Ireland
Mary Waugh 62 Ireland
Charles Currie 8 Scotland
Mary Currie 6 Ayrshire
George Currie 5 Ayrshire
William Currie 1 Ayrshire
in 1851 in Dundonald Ayrshire
Mary Curris 38 Ireland
Mary Curris 15 Irvine dau muslin sewer
George Curris 14 Edinburgh son
William Curris 11 Irvine son
Patrick Madder 4 illeg. son Irvine
John Madder 2 illeg. son Irvine
in 1861 in Dundonald
Mary Currie 20 head muslin sewer Irvine
John Madden 9 half-brother Irvine
Mary Lawrie 2 daughter Irvine
Mary Smith 20
Elizabeth Amster 18
Is it reasonable to assert that this is the same group of people, despite the disparity in ages through the years?
Also, if Mary Lawrie is the daughter of Mary Currie and Patrick and John Madder/n the illegitimate sons of Mary Currie, snr, then their father's surnames are Lawrie and Madder/n respectively?
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Hi -
Yes, I would be inclined to say this was the same family group.
On 1851 Census the family are living in Fullarton Street - Dundonald Parish.....but this was actually in the town of Irvine not the town of Dundonald.
Part of Irvine (one side of the river) came under Irvine Parish. The other side of the river came under Dundonald Parish.
So the family are still in same town.
As to the names of Madder and Lawrie - yes I would say these children were named after their fathers .
Looby :)
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Hi again
The boys - Patrick and John are actually recorded as MADDEN on the 1851 Census - as per Scotlands People records.
Looby :)
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Thanks for replying.
Just writing down those 3 censuses made everything look clearer.
Wonder if I can find out anything about Mr Lawrie, as I believe that Mary Currie has several more illegitimate children - but they might all have different unnamed fathers.
(Yes, I should have put that those were just from Ancestry and their interpretation of the names.)
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Just out of interest -
There is a man lodging on High Street Irvine in 1851 -
Peter Madan - aged 40 - agricultural labourer born Ireland.
The names Peter and Patrick were/are interchangeable.
Looby :)
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Have you looked at Mary Lawrie's birth registration?
She was born after Statutory Registration....her father may possibly be named on the registration if he accepted responsibility .
Looby :)
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No Father's name - I have just looked.
Her grandmother was the informant.
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That's a pity.
Do you know what happened to young Mary - if she married she may have given a father's name on her marriage registration? Equally when she died, the informant could have provided a father's name.
However both sources depend on the knowledge/memory of the person who provided it.
If Mary snr registered the birth of her granddaughter there should be a death cert. for her
.
Looby :)
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Is Mary Lawrie still in Irvine on the 1871 Census but recorded as Mary Currie?
Looby :)
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I am actually looking for a Jane/Jeanie Currie/Cardie who has Mary Currie, hand sewer, on her death certificate, with no father named.
Because I was not sure who was Jeanie's mother, and no definite age for her as I could not find the two together on a census, I do not have a death for Mary.
Jeanie's age also varies, so had not decided on a birth for her.
So I was trying an alternative approach.
I did have a rule never to spend money after 10p.m. but to carefully consider the options.
I had seen that Peter Madan, and meant to record it 'just in case'.
But somewhere I have got a mention of a dock labourer, I think.
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Sorry, which household in 1871?
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There is a Mary Currie aged 12 and born in Irvine recorded in the household of a Robert Wilson , Ironmonger , Townhead, Irvine.
Young Mary Currie is a domestic servant.
When did Jane/Jeanie Currie die and what ages do you have for her?
Looby :)
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My notes:
Death (109 Wallace Street, Ayr) claims widow of Samuel Wilson Cardie (coal miner, drawer), and daughter of Mary Currie (hand sewer)
Death April 7th 1952 age 88.
So birth 1863/1864.
So this birth looked wrong, unless she lied once she married:
Janet Currie F 1867 595/ 21 Irvine
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A tree on Ancestry had Mary Currie (1840) marrying a Mr Scott - which could be this proposed family:
1871 Dundonald Irvine
Mary Carrie 30 head muslin sewer
Jane Mccann 9 all either son or daughter, born irvine
Robert Scott 4
Mary Scott 4
William Scott 2
George Scott 1
or that might muddy the waters further - there are not many fathers around in this family.
Thanks for your assistance, and the opportunity for fresh eyes, I am off to bed.
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I'm assuming by the term "claims widow" that you are unsure of a marriage between Jane Currie and Samuel Wilson Cardie ?
That family with Mary Currie as head of household looks like a good bet.
Jane McCann? age 9 so born circa 1861/1862....
And then the Scott children - including another Mary :-\
Looby :)
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There is a Jane Spence McCann born in Irvine in 1863 ??
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Yes, I saw that Jane Spence McCann - not yet encountered any 'Spence' people - but could be on his side.
If the ages are accurate on the 1871 census, then I cannot find consistent surnames for births
1871
Mary Carrie 30
Jane Mccann 9 Dundonald ?Jane McCann F 1863 Irvine (should only be 8
Robert Scott 4 Irvine ?Robert Currie M 1864 Irvine (should be 6 or 7)
Mary Scott 4 Mary McCann 1870 Mary Currie 1861 neither?
William Scott 2 ? William Currie M 1867 Irvine
George Scott 1 ?George Currie M 1870 Irvine
OK, paid to see
Robert could be 6 or 4
Still no man in household, which would help.
Samuel Wilson Cardie only seems to be Samuel Cardie/Cardy in the records I can see for him, do not know why he should turn up as Samuel Wilson Cardie at death.
Samuel Cardy marries Jane Currie in 1883, Ayr.
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I have these series of births from IGI with no father :
Margaret Currie 1865 Irvine mother:Mary Currie
William Currie 1867 Irvine mother: Mary Currie
Robert Curriel 1864 Irvine mother: Mary Currie
George Currie 1870 Irvine mother: Mary Currie
Mary Currie 1861 Irvine mother:Mary Currie
but no Jane/Janet/Jean/Jeanie
There are many Mary Curries around Ayr, but when I was trying to find a Jean Currie with mother Mary Currie, could not find.
And,
I cannot now see why I have recorded her as Jeanie, which is slightly annoying, as I had better go and do some work.
Added:
Just paid for that Jane Spence McCann birth - and asked for a re-scan. Father probably James a blacksmith, mother probably Mary but original surname Myers or anything. So No.
I am having about a 50% rate of asking for a re-scan from scotlandspeople, it is getting a little embarrassing.
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I have looked at the 1871 Census entry and think the daughter aged 4 is Margaret (Margt on Census)
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I have these series of births from IGI with no father :
Margaret Currie 1865 Irvine mother:Mary Currie
William Currie 1867 Irvine mother: Mary Currie
Robert Curriel 1864 Irvine mother: Mary Currie
George Currie 1870 Irvine mother: Mary Currie
Mary Currie 1861 Irvine mother:Mary Currie
but no Jane/Janet/Jean/Jeanie
And,
I would say the first four names listed are the children recorded as Scott with Mary Carrie/Currie on the 1871 Census.
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Yes, a lot better as Margt for Mary.
Going now.
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Finding it hard to locate Jane Currie on the 1871 Census (unless she is the 9 year old Jane McCann with Mary Carrie/Currie . which I suspect she could be).
Her birth is also elusive ???
The Jane Spence McCann born 1863 was born to James McCann and Margaret Muir https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY51-H5D
and this family appear on 1871 England Census -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5B1-34X
so it's not another child lodging with Mary and mis-recorded as daughter.
However while messing about with free searches on Scotlands People , I had a look at Cardy/Cardie births in Ayrshire after 1883.
CARDY AGNES JANE 1883 St Quivox and Newton On Ayr
CARDY WILLIAM JOHN 1885 St Quivox and Newton On Ayr
CARDY ROBERT SCOTT 1887 St Quivox and Newton On Ayr
CARDY SAMUEL M 1890 St Quivox and Newton On Ayr
CARDIE MARY CURRIE 1896 Ayr
CARDIE JOHN MADDEN 1900 Ayr
The above John Madden Cardie birth in 1900 really intrigued me as John Madden was the half brother of Mary Currie and would have been uncle (half) to Mary Currie's children. Therefore if this birth is to Jane Currie and Samuel Cardie this would perhaps provide a link to the Currie family on the 1851 & 1861 Census.
Looby :)
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Not seen that John Madden Currie birth, just John Currie, 5 months, on 1901 census(plus several siblings).
Getting there:
Birth of John Madden Currie on September 11th 1900 at 65 Wallace street, Ayr, to Samuel Cardie and Jane Cardie/Currie
Still missing Jane's birth - which is where I started.
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I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I think the 1861 birth of Mary Currie- Illegitimate- to Mary Currie , Muslin Sewer is your Jane Currie :-\
Weird :-X I know because Mary Currie , Muslin Sewer already had an illegitimate daughter who is recorded on 1861 Census as Mary Lawrie.
This Mary Currie is born in 1861 has a birth date of 18th April ( 12 days after the 1861 Census was taken). The place of birth is Boat Stabs in the Parish of Dundonald.
The 1861 Census entry for Mary Currie Muslin Sewer with her half brother John Madden and daughter Mary Lawrie is at Gottries/Guthries in Parish of Dundondald.
I believe Gottries/Guthries/Boat Stabs were all part of the same area - poor accommodation on the riverbank on the Dundonald Parish side the River Irvine.
I could be way off track, of course.
Looby :)
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Just out of interest -
There is a man lodging on High Street Irvine in 1851 -
Peter Madan - aged 40 - agricultural labourer born Ireland.
The names Peter and Patrick were/are interchangeable.
Looby :)
I'm butting in to say thanks for that piece of information. An Irish GGF was Peter from the west of Ireland. He remained there all his life.
I see from www.whatsinaname.net that the 2 names were interchangeable in Scotland.
According to fhr.kiwicelts.com/Research/Gen_Nicknames.html they were interchangeable in Ulster.
The latter site lists some forenames which were popular in certain parts of Ireland.
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As Jane/Jeanie Currie/Cardie did not die until 1952, her great-grandson was alive then, so have got him on the case. Do not expect anything significant but will wait and see.
If the death certificate information is correct she has to be born in either 1863 or 1864.
It is just very strange that there are so many Currie's with mother Mary Currie, unmarried, but no Jane.
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The only Jane you have is Jane McCann , with mother Mary Currie (unmarried) and all the Scott siblings. Mary seems to give all her children their father's names on the 1861 and 1871 Censuses
Jane McCann is recorded as 9 in 1871 so a birth year on 1861/62.
Jane Currie and Samuel Cardy/ Cardie have a child John Madden Cardie - which ties to Mary Currie's half brother.
There is also a birth of a Robert Scott Cardy at St Quivox and Newton on Ayr in 1887 - is this boy also Jane and Samuel's ? If so he appears to be named for a son of Mary Currie's ....and therefore a brother of Jane's - the child Robert Scott (who is registered as Currie and is born 1864) .
Boat Stabs where Mary Currie gives birth to a daughter named Mary Currie on 18th April 1861 is the same place as Gottries/ Guthries where Mary Currie snr is recorded as living 12 days earlier on 1861 Census. Info I have looked at suggests that Boat Stabs was probably the name of some sort of building in the area of Gottries. She is the only Mary Currie in that area on 1861 Census.
Is it possible that Mary Currie born 18th April 1861 is in fact Jane McCann? I know it is bizarre and you'll never be able to prove one way or other....but the fact that there is no birth registered for Jane....and there is no death registered (that I can see) for the child Mary and no Census entry either. Could the registrar have recorded the wrong name? Could he have written the name of the mother as the name of the child ??? Who knows?
Looby :)
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What I was hoping was that the great-grandson would actually know her birthday, which is possible but unlikely. Sometimes dates are known because they are the same as a grandchild or other random fact - my son born March 7th, Granny born March 6th, that sort of thing. Or it might have been written down somewhere.
Will the 1939 Scotland's register eventually be made fully available, as that will have her birth date which could be April 18th and the wrong year?
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I have no idea if there are plans to release the National Identity Register of 1939 online -
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/national-register
Apparently part of the register is open and you can apply for an extract.
Have you found Jane Currie on the 1881 Census? I can't see her :-\
Looby :)
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No, not found definitely on 1881.
She married in 1883 at St Quivox and Newton-on-Ayr, living in Whitletts.
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Just to add for anyone still interested, that the family in 1871
1871 Dundonald Irvine
Mary Carrie 30 head muslin sewer Irvine
all recorded as son or daughter:
Jane Mccann 9 Bonnet Knitter Dundonald
Robert Scott 4 Irvine
Mary Scott 4 Irvine
William Scott 2 Irvine
George Scott 1 Irvine
are living at what looks like Cotton Row South Side No 1 Coat??
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74425804#zoom=6&lat=3430&lon=3224&layers=BT
Also the 2 Madden boys, son of Mary Currie/Waugh born Ireland around 1800/1810, half-brothers to Mary Currie ( born 1841 or before)
1851
Patrick Madder 4 illeg. son Irvine
John Madder 2 illeg. son Irvine
in 1861
John Madden 9 half-brother Irvine
Patrick possibly dies in June 1863 - no parents on death certificate- in a mining death, and age recorded as 16 or 17
http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/Indexes/1863deaths.html
John Madden, born around 1848 probably goes into the Army, marries 1888 in Lanark, claiming parents as Peter Madden, stevedore, and Mary Madden/Waugh as Mother.
Dies in 1900 and widow states his father was Peter Madden, quay labourer, and his mother was Mary McCracken widow of George Currie labourer.
Added:
Anyone any suggestions as to alternative surname McCracken?
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Hi chempat,
Not sure if this helps but Jane Currie and Samuel Cardie have a baby in March 1882. The child, a boy, is unnamed and dies at 2 days old (there is a corresponding death certificate) - imperfect development at birth :'( Poor wee soul .
The image of the birth record is almost unreadable - another enhancement request to SP ;D - but, interestingly, it looks like Samuel and Jane ( well Samuel anyway, as he is the informant) are passing themselves off as a married couple.
However this birth , places Jane in Whitletts in early 1882 and - if the pregnancy was full term - possibly mid 1881? I wonder where she is hiding on the 1881 Census.
Looby :)
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Trying to find Jane makes me want a subscription not a pay-per-view for the census, so that I can work my way through all the images trying to see if there is someone that could be her but has been wrongly transcribed or just looks odd.
No luck.
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I applied for the 1939 entry for Jane Cardie (which comes as a printed/typed extract with no information on who else is in the household, or the neighbours) and her birth date is given as 28th August 1863.
She could be out with her year of birth, but usually people get the day and month correct, so I am looking for a Jane Currie born in August, probably in 1863.
But I better go and do some gardening and have a think.