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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Lana2017 on Tuesday 01 May 18 13:34 BST (UK)
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Hi guys,
I'm fairly new at this whole genealogy thing so apologies in advance if I ask any silly questions!
I'm looking into possible gypsy / traveller heritage on my tree, it's a bit of a longshot but I figured worth investigating anyway. On Gedmatch Eurogenes K13 I score somewhat higher in South Asian and West Asian than the reference populations I am from (Scots and Irish). I have South Asian 1.64 and West Asian 7.06. Still low enough they could just be noise I think..?
Anyway, I got interested in possible gypsy heritage as I came across two sisters, Clementina and Ruby on my tree (I understand Clementina is an unusual name outside the traveller community). I looked around for traveller surnames in that branch but all I can find so far is Clementina's grandmother was Mary Anne Hutchison, which appears in the gypsy surname index.
Unfortunately I don't have much info on her other than that she married James Haywood and had a son, also James Haywood, in 1831 in Edinburgh. I haven't been able to trace the Hutchison line itself.
Any input or advice appreciated :)
Thanks!
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Lana; The Book Of Bob (Click the little house under my avatar) does indeed list Hutchinson as a name used, by Gypsys, of the Scottish Borders. 1891.
Hayward ~ close enough! ~ is listed 1841 - 1905, on and off, up and down the land.
So, yeppers, throw in a name like Clementina and I'd say it's a theory well worth examination ;)
As I always point out though; One should work ones tree in the time honoured and orderly manner. Never decide, " Oh, look! An interesting possibility, back then. " and start chasing it from a random point in history.
Start with yeself and work back, with an open mind. All will be revealed 8)
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for the reply, that's really interesting! The name Haywood seems to change it's spelling a bit on my tree, sometimes it's Haywood sometimes it's Heywood, seems to be a common issue with these old records (or perhaps the name evolved).
A bit more info on this line of my tree to see if it helps:
- my great-great grandmother is Isabella Haywood (Clementina is her daughter)
- Isabella Haywood's father is James Haywood (born 1831), a candlemaker in Midlothian
- James Haywood's parents are James Haywood (born around 1811) and Mary Anne Hutchison
I haven't been able to get any further back. I don't see any evidence of people travelling around / changing location a lot or of any traditional gypsy occupations but then I don't have much info so far :)
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Hi was James Haywood/Heywood married to a Mary in 1851 census occ Candle Maker b Edinburgh, Isabella/Isabell b 1852, as in 1861/72 an unlikely trade for a Gypsy being Fireman at Engine and 1871 Engineman?
Keyboard86
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Lana; It's good to see ye aware of the Occupation angle ;)
That's, often as not, a great pointer. " Candle Maker ", I must say, doesn't exactly jump out at one as a Gypsy occupation. (Though, I must say; I've turned a fair bit of income from doing just that! One has to be resourceful, at times 8))
Maybe the Haywood line is a false marker then? No matter. Find a Butcher and Baker and ye'll have a hell of a conversation piece! ;D
No matter. As said; Inch ye way backwards. Rely on Facts that present themselves and are repeatedly proven beyond dispute. That will give ye a cast iron ancestry ye can rely on. What ever it may prove to be.
I must admit, I don't really know about the Gypsys of Scotland and the borders. I originate from as far south as it gets, while remaining dry. So, my own 'rules' may not even apply to those people?
Again; Just follow the available, provable, information. Keep an open mind. See what come out in the wash.
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Hi was James Haywood/Heywood married to a Mary in 1851 census occ Candle Maker b Edinburgh, Isabella/Isabell b 1852, as in 1861/72 an unlikely trade for a Gypsy being Fireman at Engine and 1871 Engineman?
Hi Keyboard86, yes I think we're talking about the same person, he was married to Mary and a Candle Maker in 1851 census then his daughter Isabella Haywood born in 1852. Are the fireman and engingeman occupations James as well but in later censues?
Maybe the Haywood line is a false marker then? No matter. Find a Butcher and Baker and ye'll have a hell of a conversation piece!
Yes it sounds like the Haywood link is a false marker due to the occupations... If I could find Mary Hutchison's father that would be useful as I could see his occupation and whether that is a likely line to pursue. I've found a few Hutchison hawkers in Edinburgh in the 1800s but don't have info on Mary yet so difficult to make links (if there are any).
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Mary Hutchison's father would be potential pay dirt!
Cutting it fine though, aren't we, with the date records became the norm? If ye could gather any Cert's around him? Brilliant!
Of course, her MC should give ye some idea of what he was up to, at that given point in time.
That, of course, is something I'd be picking up as part of the natural process anyway.
Be interesting to see how this pans out. I like watching others dig ;D
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James in 1881/91 is a Rubber Worker he looks to spend the majority of his life in St Cuthberts Midlothian, as does his Mother who especially stays around Semple Street, St Cuthberts as a Laundress.
This looks to be the family in 1841 census:-
James 50
Mary 40
James 11
Agnes 8
Thomas 5
Keyboard86
PS did Isabella say her father was a Candle Maker at marriage, did she marry a James Chisholm?
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Of course, her MC should give ye some idea of what he was up to, at that given point in time
Sorry I'm probably being dim but what's a MC?
James in 1881/91 is a Rubber Worker he looks to spend the majority of his life in St Cuthberts Midlothian, as does his Mother who especially stays around Semple Street, St Cuthberts as a Laundress.
This looks to be the family in 1841 census:-
James 50
Mary 40
James 11
Agnes 8
Thomas 5
Keyboard86
PS did Isabella say her father was a Candle Maker at marriage, did she marry a James Chisholm?
Yep, that's right she married a James Chisholm :) The transcript I have of her marriage (on Ancestry) doesn't give a father's occupation but I have James Heywood (born 1831) listed as a Candlemaker from the 1851 census.
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Hi again, MC is Marriage certificate.
Keyboard86
PS was Isabella born as Isabella Donaldson Heywood 18th July 1851 Fife, Dunfermline Father James Heywood Mother Mary Marshall?
One of the children on the 1871 census, does not appear on 1861, a Mary Ann Heywood b c 1853 in 1861 she is with a Robert Marshall 60 with wife Isabella Donaldson 67 Grace Marshall 25 shown as Grandaughter.
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Hi again, MC is Marriage certificate
Ah I see, thanks. I wish I had Mary Hutchison's marriage certificate, I just have the transcript on Ancestry that unfortunately doesn't let you see the original image.
And yep, you've got the right Isabella! :) I'm looking at what I've got for her on Ancestry, I have a 1861 and 1881 census but no 1871 so I don't see a Mary Ann Heywood. I'm a bit puzzled why she would be on some census but not others...?
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Hi again, 1871 census:-
James Heywood 40
Mary 42
ISABELL 19
Mary Ann 18
James 16
Agness 10
Janet 8
Residing Ponton Street, St Cuthbert, Edinburgh
Keyboard86
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thanks for the info, that's interesting.
One of the children on the 1871 census, does not appear on 1861, a Mary Ann Heywood b c 1853 in 1861 she is with a Robert Marshall 60 with wife Isabella Donaldson 67 Grace Marshall 25 shown as Grandaughter
Forgive me if I've misunderstood this - does that mean she was living with her grandparents so didn't appear on the census? I have a Mary Marshall born 1828 so would Robert Marshall and Isabella Donaldson likely be her parents?
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:) Just visiting for the night perhaps?
you need to track Robert Marshall and Isabella Donaldson back from 1861 census.
Keyboard86
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Hi again, James Haywood and Mary were living at 6, Monastery Street, Fife in 1851 census, at 9, Monastery Street were:-
Robert Marshall 50 occ Wight/Wright b Cornhill, Durham, in 1861 b England occ Joiner.
Isabella 58
Janet 20
James 17
Grace 15
Isabella 13
Robert 11
1841 census Broad Street, Fife
Robert Marshall 40
Isble 44
Jane 15
Mary 11
Janet 9
James 7
Grace 5
Isabella 3
Robert 0
Mary Marshall born 16th January 1828 Fife, Father Robert Mother Isabella Donaldson
Keyboard86
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Thanks for the info - I hadn't found Mary Marshall's parents so far, always good to get another bit of the tree filled in! :)
I'm a bit confused about Robert Marshall. I've found the 2 censues you reference on ancestry, seems to be the same person as the childrens names etc are all accurate but one census has him born in Durham in 1801 and another (1841) has him born in Fife in 1801.
I'm more inclined to go with the Fife one but do you know why there'd be such a difference in the records? (or have I misunderstood something? brain is very tired today!)
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:) 1841 census is always a problem especially "Rounding down" of ages ( although in this case in Scotland it did not appear to happen ) I am happy that 1841/51/61 are the same family though!
Keyboard86
PS In 1861 he is born England not Scotland occ Joiner still in Monastery Street, Fife
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Hi again, this appears to be the baptism of Robert Marshall:-
Robert Marshall 1st May 1801 Cornhill Father James Mother Jane.
Notes on father Dissenter?
What was a "Dissenter" in 1801 Durham /Northumberland anyone!
Keyboard86
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Ah okay it looks like Durham is probably correct then if that's what comes up in the 1861 too. I think you've just found my first English ancestor! ;D
I'm intrigued by 'dissenter' haven't seen that on any records before...
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" Dissenter " refers to their religion. Other than COE.
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Hi well you live and learn!
James Marshall the Dissenter and Jane also had baptised in Cornhill:-
William 6th June 1796
Jane 6th December 1797
James 30th July 1799
Think James 1799 also marries an Isabella possibly nee SWAN b Scotland If my memory serves me well!
Keyboard86
Just realised Nicked a phrase from a Bob Dylan lyric!
PS James 1799, was a Blacksmith so the likelyhood of a Gypsy heritage lies with the Hutchison family!
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Thanks for the details, got them all on my family tree now :) a nice surprise as it was looking like that side of the family never left the same area of Scotland for hundreds of years so we've got a bit of variety now with Durham! (also - it's hard not to quote from Bob Dylan - he has so many good lines ;D )
" Dissenter " refers to their religion. Other than COE
Interesting, I didn't know that. Been reading an article about the English Dissenters, one of the things I like about genealogy is all the little bits of history you learn along the way.
PS James 1799, was a Blacksmith so the likelyhood of a Gypsy heritage lies with the Hutchison family!
Yepp, I've come across a few possible candidates for Mary Hutchison's father, it's just Mary is quite a common name so I can't determine which is the right one - and this is me assuming that they'd be from Midlothian and that Mary's birth year is correct when it's really just an estimate. ???
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Hi again, this family has me confused, and Ancestry is playing up, this is Mary Heywood in 1851 census:-
Mary Heywood 48 Widow b Edinburgh
Agnes 18
Thomas 15
John Balfour 12
Agnes Deas/Deans 7
Residing at Weavers Close, 6, Semple Street
1861 census
Maryann Heywood 55
Agnes Deans 18 b Glasgow
Mary McCall 5
Residing at Weavers Land
1871 census Fountain Bridge:-
John Glasgow 51
Agnes 38
Mary McCall 16
John Glasgow and Agnes are in Semple Street in 1861 census
I have an 1891 census for Agnes Glasgow aged 56 Widow, with Isabella Heywood 24 ? and Mary A Heywood 22 ?shown as Nieces
Where in 1881?
Their must be two Heywood/Haywood families, as in 1901 census an Agnes Glasgow 67 has a Niece Mary Haywood 32 with her ie born c 1869?
OK they are the daughters of her brother Thomas aged 36 occ Engine Driver with wife Elizabeth 27 and within household a Grace Dickson 67 shown as Mother in Law in 1871 census.
PS the "Dylan lyric" was a variation of that on This Wheels on fire by The Band.
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..... one of the things I like about genealogy is all the little bits of history you learn along the way.
:) Funny ye should say that. As I said, only last night, Here (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=792879.9):
There's so much more, to Family History than copy / paste ancient pedigrees. I think we've just proven that! 8)
I'm a swine for the DC's. I just Have To know how they finally died! It's interesting and part of the whole picture. Our people were so much more than just a litany of names, even it it does stretch back to 1066 ;)
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What was a "Dissenter" in 1801 Durham /Northumberland anyone!
Keyboard86
I have Northumberland Presbyterians and Baptists in my tree from a little earlier than that. They'd have been considered to be dissenters. Some moved to Scotland and I can't find any parish records for some of them, who presumably were still Baptists.
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OK they are the daughters of her brother Thomas aged 36 occ Engine Driver with wife Elizabeth 27 and within household a Grace Dickson 67 shown as Mother in Law in 1871 census.
You sussed it out! I vaguely remember coming across those records a while back and just getting horribly confused, couldn't make head nor tail of it. Now I know :)
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:) Wondering just who the parents are and the reason Mary (Ann ) Heywood has young children in her household who appear to stay with either her or become a Servant for her married daughter Agnes?
Keyboard86
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Wondering just who the parents are and the reason Mary (Ann ) Heywood has young children in her household who appear to stay with either her or become a Servant for her married daughter Agnes?
Yeah seems an odd arrangement, can't quite figure it out. No joy finding the parents either. I might restart my subscription of findmypast, they sometimes seem to have records that ancestry miss.
Our people were so much more than just a litany of names, even it it does stretch back to 1066 ;)
Exactly! I feel like I'm telling a story rather than just creating a list of facts about people :)
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I might restart my subscription of findmypast ...
Watch them! I had a months worth. Then 'Cancelled'. Took me several months, and some choice invective, to make them Stop helping themselves to my bank account! >:(
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Watch them! I had a months worth. Then 'Cancelled'. Took me several months, and some choice invective, to make them Stop helping themselves to my bank account
Yikes, thanks for the heads-up - I'll be careful if I do renew my subscription. Pity as they seem to have more Irish records than Ancestry and tracing my Irish relatives has been really tough (don't know if it's just my luck or if there's a historical reason for lack of Irish records?)
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Yeppers. I still have the transcript of the 'Live Chat' I had with one of their people. Where she apologised for the theft and stated, categorically, that the payments were now turned off. Guess what happened next!!! >:(
Irish records are, quite frankly, a nightmare! For various reasons, they just weren't kept well / don't exist.
Interesting point raised here though; I've always rather hoped for someone with local ancestors to need me to try and track theirs, via the church records. I wouldn't have a clue where to start. But, it could be fun trying.
And ye've just reminded me: I'm talking to a member, on here, who's in Australia. But, whose Gt Grandparents ~ or there abouts ~ actually came from my local town!
Blimey! I may have to find the local priest. Even get my camera and start searching the grave yard! :D
So, there we have it. Even if the Irish records, on line, are a bit naff? Never give up hope. Ye may yet run into someone living within five miles of where ye rellies lived 8)
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Hi
I just saw this post, and hope you are still following it
Your original question, were the Hutchinson's/Hutchison's travellers (both spellings are used). The answer is a very definite YES.
My 5G Grandfather William Hutchinson c1752 was a basket maker. I believe he was born in the parish of Rockcliffe just on the English side of the border with Scotland. His cousin Peter was born in Scotland, he was also a basket maker and his descendants dropped the "n"
William Hutchinson had 13 children that I know of and i'm in contact with over 50 descendants. We have all taken a DNA test.
It would be great to prove a connection to you. If we are related, I have lots of info, stories etc
Regards
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Hi
I just saw this post, and hope you are still following it
Your original question, were the Hutchinson's/Hutchison's travellers (both spellings are used). The answer is a very definite YES.
My 5G Grandfather William Hutchinson c1752 was a basket maker. I believe he was born in the parish of Rockcliffe just on the English side of the border with Scotland. His cousin Peter was born in Scotland, he was also a basket maker and his descendants dropped the "n"
William Hutchinson had 13 children that I know of and i'm in contact with over 50 descendants. We have all taken a DNA test.
It would be great to prove a connection to you. If we are related, I have lots of info, stories etc
Regards
Hi,
just saw your post first time I have checked this thread in awhile! That's really interesting about your relatives it would be really cool if it does turn out we have a connection. I haven't gotten any further with trying to find Mary Ann hutchisons parents unfortunately I did find her death certificate but the parents were not listed and the records are very sparse after that. I've had a DNA test done and so has my dad (the suspected traveller ancestry is on his side), we could try and see if we are a match on gedmatch if you like?
Thanks!