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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Gold prospector on Monday 07 May 18 13:27 BST (UK)
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My grandfather (Everest) was one of 4 young children whose father, a gold prospector, (Jules Francois - originally from Mauritius) died unexpectedly in 1876 in Parkes, NSW, and whose mother, shortly after, went to gaol for sly grog selling (to support the family!). Without any means of support, they were placed in institutions in Sydney - the 2 girls in "The Roman Catholic Orphanage" and the 2 boys on the decommissioned naval vessel, "The Vernon", in Sydney Harbour, where official records have him called "Everis". It was immediately noted that, at age 3, he was too young to be on the ship and so ensured a lot of correspondence between the Captain and the Colonial Office about what to do with him. It was resolved to send him to be with his sisters in the Orphan School, in January, 1877. However, I have been unable to confirm this. It was also the practice to have 'graduates' of the orphan schools (when old enough) to be indentured out to families to work for a few years. However, I can't confirm this either. An elderly living cousin of mine thinks Everest may have lived and worked on the river boats in Morpeth in the Hunter Valley, NSW. But electoral roles haven't helped me there either. Meanwhile, his mother, Mary, had remarried and moved to Broken Hill, NSW. She seemed to have found one of Everest's brothers and a sister through newspaper advertisements.The next event I have identified is his marriage, in Broken Hill, in September 1897. So the question is: "What happened to him in those 20 years between 1877 and 1897"?
Sorry about the long story, however, I'd be grateful for any suggestions!
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Is this a 3rd son to Mary and Jules?
Funeral notice 1911: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15215854
Jamjar
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There are two "Public Member Trees" (submitted to Ancestry by users who have indicated the tree can be viewed by all Ancestry paid subscribers) relating to Everest AVELINE. Although a one month subscription costs $30, it would enable you to view these trees and make contact with the submitting member who may be able to assist you. I believe his mother's name was Mary MORRIS.
I am not an Ancestry subscriber as I refuse to pay for data which was supplied free of charge.
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Dear Jamjar,
Yes, Everest had two brothers: the elder one, Alfred, was born in 1872 and is the one you identified in the Death notice of 1911. Everest was born in 1873 and his younger brother, Frederick, in 1874. Their older sisters were Julia (Julietta) and Emily. The parents were Jules and Mary.
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Welcome to RootsChat, Gold Prospector.
Presuming you do not know which orphanage the girls were sent to, I can think of two possibilities in Sydney, though do not know that either or both were operating in 1876.
My father's parents had a green grocer shop in North Sydney in the early 1900s and maybe earlier. Dad told me once that when he was a teenager (c.1913 or so) his mother used to give the nuns at St Joseph's Orphanage at Crows Nest/Lane Cove a sugar bag of vegetables each week. He presumed it was 'conscience money' when I discovered his mum had grown up as Catholic but married a non-Catholic ::) ::) ::)
When I was a kid in the 1940s in Sydney, there was an orphanage at Waitara, run by the Mercy nuns.
No, sorry, Google says that one was established only in 1898. And the Lane Cove one a little earlier but too late for your people.
Looking at http://www.sydneycatholic.org/about/orphanage-records.shtml it might be the last one on the list, at Parramatta
Dawn M
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Dear q98,
Many thanks for that tip - it never ceases to amaze how poor spelling can throw one off the 'scent'.
However, I will chase that alternative spelling up on the family trees you mentioned and see what happens.
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Obit for Everest says he spent his youth and manhood in and around Hinton, Morpeth districts.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article134639568
Jamjar
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Dear Dawn,
Yours is an interesting story!
Actually, in an attempt to be as succinct as possible, I didn't mention in my post that I had inquired about Parramatta from the Archivist at The Good Samaritans but without success (thinking that the Industrial Training School there - where the sisters were placed - was the likely place Everest/Everis ended up; but there's no record, despite the extensive letters about him on "The Vernon" . So, short of employing someone down at the State Records Office to do a more intensive search, I'm not sure which way to go there.
I thought there may be information about families that took indentured young people after they had 'served' their time (as there is information about the families that sisters Julia and Emily were indentured out to - on the discharge papers from the institution) and there is a Police report of Everest's older brother, Alfred absconding from his post-orphan school 'employer' a couple of times!
But nothing on Everest.
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Dear Jamjar,
Thank you for that...
Actually, now that you have prompted my memory, Everest's obit was written by my father (who has unfortunately, himself been deceased for many years and never mentioned that detail in life). However, that would suggest that Everest was in that area. Now, is there a way of 'joining the dots' between Sydney in 1877 and Morpeth? Could he have been indentured out from whatever orphanage he was in (in Sydney) to a Hunter Valley family?
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Dear Dawn,
Sorry... I forgot to thank you for that link to the RC orphanages which I will investigate further!
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Apologies for not proof-reading my previous entry in which I typed the surname "AVELINE"! Incorrect; it should have read "ANSELINE".
Further, an image of "Vernon" located at https://www.flickr.com/photos/41311545@N05/3824442769/in/photostream/
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He was in the Randwick Asylum until 1884:
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/search_form?id=74
Indexed as AUSCLIM, Everis
Debra :)
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OOPS, somehow I didn't see Dundee's message!
https://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/keyname.aspx
searching here on "Everis" shows an "Everis Ausclim"
Now I wonder if (given that u/n are commonly mistaken for each other in handwriting) this could be a very poorly written "Anseline? (Emily is in same index as AUSELINE)
He was in the Randwick Asylum for Destitute Children, and discharged 11/06/1884 aged 9 (before his tenth birthday?)
On Ancestry he appears to be "Everis Anselmi" (free search info only)
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I happen to be going to the NSW State Archives to day and have added those Randwick Asylum records (for Everis and Frederick) to my list. If I get time and if they are in allowable time frame (too rushed to check) then I will photograph them for you.
Ros
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Dear Debra, Ros and Jo (?jorose),
Three cheers!
I had a 'yippee!' moment when I read your emails this morning.
I went to the NSW Archives site just now and found Everis Ausclim listed as you predicted. But then, on Ancestry.com, I also found the actual Admission and Discharge document for both Everis (Everest) Anselmi and his younger brother, Frederick Jules Anselmi. However, looking at the ornate 19th writing, the surname is clearly 'Anseline'.
More exciting is that the document clearly validates my theory that he ended up in the Hunter Valley because he was "...Appt to Miss Elizabeth Pearce of Hinton" on ?? 18th, 1887, aged 12, having been admitted to the Randwick Asylum, aged 9, "From Mother Mrs Mary (?Ann) Anseline of 11 ??Street, off George St, Sydney". There is an interesting note that says "...to pay 5/- for ????" There is a further written comment at the bottom which I can't decipher (Something like 'Pro to Preceding"). Oddly, however, the document has the heading '1884' at the top of the page. So, does that mean he was admitted there in 1884 and it was proposed to discharge him to Miss Pearce in 1887, or was this document written in 1887?
So, Ros, I really appreciate your offer to take a look at that document at the Archives and photograph it if you have the time!
Or, are there two documents, given the fact that the NSW State Archives document is about Jules Ausclim?
Now, I just have to determine where he was between 1877 and 1884....perhaps one of the other orphanages?
Sorry about all the questions!
Once again, many thanks!
(I haven't worked out how to do am emoticon with a huge smile yet!)
Paul.
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Dear Ros,
I have a likely correction to make:
I may have misled you about that '1884' date regarding the Randwick Asylum document.
The document was almost certainly written in 1887 (the date of '1884' was in the Ancestry.com heading above the document)...
Sorry about that.
Paul.
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I stress that this is conjecture only re Miss Elizabeth PEARCE, of Hinton NSW.
Looking at Hinton Pioneer cemetery MIs, there is no-one with the name PEARCE but there is a family with surname PEARSE.
Parents: John M PEARSE, d 2 January 1907, 86
Isabella PEARSE, 3 Aug 1881, 47
Elizabeth Ann, d 29 Aug 1906, 47
Ann Agnes, d 2 Aug 1902 39
Florence Helen, d 13 Jul 1896 23
James MacPherson, d 19 Jul 1868 1
and
John Howard, d 18 Dec 1904, 15, son/John J & Emily
http://austcemindex.com/?cemid=231
There is an obit for Elizabeth PEARSE here and other mentions of her can be found in TROVE.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/122702838
Funeral notice here:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/122702815
Account of funeral here
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/126780979
Looking at TROVE it seems that this lady was involved in 'good works' in the community so it seems possible that she is the person to whom Everist was assigned.
Judith
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Dear Judith,
Thank you for that intriguing conjecture....
I went back to the discharge document just now however, despite the handwriting, the second last letter in her name seems to be unequivocally a ‘c’.
Nevertheless, I guess ‘Pearse’ could have supplanted it...it’s often surprising just how distorted a name can become! (I might just check electoral rolls of the time - if they exist - and see if Everest/Everis is listed in Miss Pearse’s household).
Many thanks for the links to the obit, etc
Paul
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I thought it was interesting. There are a couple of TROVE mentions which are almost certainly the same woman where her name is spelt PEARCE. I wonder how you asked to get a convict assigned to work for you. ???
Judith
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Dear Judith,
I'm not sure either how one would go about getting a convict assigned to oneself!
However, Everest was not a convict. He was originally an unfortunate 3 year old whose father, Jules Francois (a Mauritian emigrant, gold prospecting in Forbes) died, age 36, in The Sydney Infirmary (ie: Sydney Hospital), in 1876. Compounding the situation, his mother, Mary Morris went to gaol later in 1876 for sly-grog selling! So, Everest and his 4 young siblings, being without any means of support, were shunted off to various orphanages in Sydney!
I'm not sure where he was sent between 1877 and 1884 (after a few weeks on 'The Vernon' in late 1876). However, as a consequence of this thread of posts (see Ros, Debra and Jo), I have learnt that he was at the Randwick Asylum for Destitute Children, 1884-1887. I apologise if you are already aware, however, when a child was old enough and had ' done his/her time' at the orphanage, he/she was indentured out to a responsible, caring family - Everest from the Randwick Asylum to our Miss Pearce. So, as you rightly point out, it's a fair bet that, on the basis of your investigation, Miss Pearce was exactly that kind of person (perhaps one registered one's name with the orphanages as being a supportive individual/family with the expectation the ex-orphan did a bit of work about the property!). Incidentally, Everest's older sister, Julia, was indentured out to a 'Reverend Lumsdaine' (though she was older that Everest and may have been a bit rebellious and so absconded from him on a couple of occasions!).
I understand that you are being cautious about whether the Miss Pearce you found is the right one - but her character would be in keeping with her role and I appreciate your suggestion.
Paul.
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Here's some further info, including electoral rolls
I should mention that the children were arrested and charged in accordance with the 1870s NSW Child welfare practices, and thus were presented to the police court which then recorded convictions as noted on those images - uploaded to Ancestry. You can see the names of the Justices of the Peace at page 216 - yes, so they were 'convicts', and it is thanks to those convictions (which) sent the lads to Sydney firstly to Vernon Industrial School... If the lads had not had convictions recorded and those records kept, ummm.... likely there would be a much more difficult quest to find what happened to them.
NSW Electoral Roll 1878 MORPETH
John PEARSE, Albion Farm, Freehold, Albion Estate
Thomas PEARSE, Hinton, Freehold, Hinton
Thomas Henry PEARSE, Albion Farm, residence, Albion Estate.
Grevilles 1875 PO Directory HINTON
Thomas PEARCE, farmer
NSW Electoral Roll 1870 MORPETH
John PEARSE, Albion Farm, Freehold, Albion Estate
Thomas PEARSE, Hinton, Freehold, Hinton
1888 Aldine Centennial History of NSW
Elizabeth PEARSE, Prospect House, Hinton, was born near Plymouth, Devonshire. Came to Sydney with her parents and three brothers in 1838 per Fortune. 1839 the family moved to the Hunter, with her father renting a farm for ten years. Then they moved to Hinton, where her father purchased land. Her mum died January 1863, and her dad died in February 1863. Miss Pearse has 500 acres of land, a splendid residence on an elevation overlooking the town of Hinton, land at Miller’s Forest, allotments and two cottages in Morpeth.
NSW BDM
In 1891, Elizabeth PEARSE death #9530 registered Morpeth, parents as John and Ann
In 1863, John PEARSE death #4570, registered Morpeth
In 1863, Ann A PEARSE, death #4560, died Hinton, registered Morpeth
Trove
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18994067 Maitland Mercury 24 Jan 1891
further Obit to support Judith’s post - Miss Pearse
JM
ADD, the charge was having no visible lawful means of support.
ADD the mum was serving three months in Gaol when the lads were sent to Sydney in 1876. Likely they returned to her once she had completed that sentence. The admissions to Randwick were where she gave them up as she could not support them. They were admitted in June 1884, and discharged in 1887.
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Dear Judith,
I'm very grateful for you explaining the convict issue to me - it has certainly made it much easier to understand Everest's progress :)
With the insight that Everest, 3 yrs, almost certainly left the Vernon and went back to his mother, Mary, in 1877 (after her initial gaol term) I can just about follow the progress of all her children as of 1876:
Julia (Julietta), 14 yrs, and Emily, 7 yrs, appear to have gone to the Parramatta Training School in 1876, then indentured out after 12 months and 3 yrs respectively to local Sydney families (E. A. Lumsdaine, Burwood and Miss Mary H. Wells, resp.)
Alfred, 4 yrs, like Everest, left the Vernon early too in early 1877 (possibly to return to her); however, interestingly, in the Police Gazette of April 1885, he absconded from Mary Ann McEvilly of Robertson; so, like Everest, he may have ended up back in an Orphanage in the early 1880's when Mary wasn't supporting him anymore.
Frederick, 2 yrs, doesn't show up on the Vernon in 1876; but, like Everest, he spent time in the Randwick Asylum, 1884-1887 (maybe he went to gaol with his mother in the 3 month 1876 imprisonment?)
Incidentally, in 1878 - Mary and Charles Gray McRae (her future second husband) spent 3 months gaol, Forbes Gaol - sly grog again! (but, by that stage, maybe the young boys were old enough to live with neighbours in Forbes for a short time). Also, Forbes Gaol, I believe, was just a lockup at the time; so, maybe they actually served time elsewhere.
Mary and Charles Gray McRae had their first child (Agnes) in Wilcannia in 1882 - and the onset of this new family may be another reason for the fates of her original children (above).
Do those theories seem plausible?
Once again, I appreciate the new insights you've provided in my ongoing researches!
Paul.
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Hi Paul,
I'm sorry I only got as far as recording the scans of the microfilm of their discharge which I see you found on Ancestry anyway. But next time I am there (about every 3 weeks) I can photograph the
Asylum records for you.
Ros
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Hi Ros,
Many thanks for your efforts - I'm very grateful! :)
As you can see from my most recent post, I'm now, with some very able assistance, starting to put the story together and fill in a lot of gaps. It will be nice if I can eventually complete the story of Mary and her children!!
Paul. :) :)
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Marriage Julia ANSELINE....interesting to see GRAY / McCRAE names
St Michaels Church Sydney 14 Apr 1883
GRAY Martha 21y b. NSW residence Waterloo
parents George GRAY / Sarah McCRAE
CROSBY Alfred 21y b. Qld bricklayer residence Ultimo
parents Henry CROSBY / Mary A
witnesses George WIDDOWS and Fanny WIDDOWS
St Michaels Church Sydney 10 Nov 1883
ANSELINE Julia 21y b. NSW residence Wattle Street Ultimo
parents Thomas ANSELINE Mary MORRIS
NESTOR Thomas 21y plasterer b. NSW residence Crown St Sydney
parents Thomas LESTER / Catherine TAYLOR...???
witnesses Alfred CROSBY and Martha CROSBY
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Huge apologies, Paul. I had read all of your posts but got side-tracked with Miss Pearce/Pearse and was excited to find someone who was probably her so forgot how your chap came to be assigned to her - and cooking dinner at the same time. :o
It seems that there are two women of the same name living in Hinton. The one I found died in 1906 and was daughter of John M PEARSE and Isabella and the one found by JM who died in 1891. I suspect they are of the same family, possibly a generation apart. I've had a cursory look but can't quite fit the family together. I don't suppose it matters much which of the ladies of 'good work' it was!
Judith
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As an aside, and maybe for a separate thread, are you reseaching the origins of Jules ANSELINE?
Where do you see his Mauritius origins?.
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Dear JM,
Please accept my apologies!!
In my excitement and haste, I overlooked the fact that it was you who put me 'straight' on the fact that Everest was technically a 'convict' and was charged with 'having no visible lawful means of support'.
The information on Miss Pearse/Pearce is intriguing - the Elizabeth Ann Pearse who died in 1906, age 47, would have been about 27 yrs in 1887 (when she 'took delivery' of Everest) which may be too young to accept that responsibility. So, perhaps it was the other Elizabeth Pearse who died around 1891..
Many thanks for those insights.
Paul.
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Dear q98,
Many thanks for sending the link to the high quality photo of 'The Vernon' and the explanatory notes.
I'm sorry I didn't thank you earlier.
Paul.
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Dear Judith,
Hope dinner went well!
I was thinking that the Elizabeth Pearse who died in 1906, aged 47, would have been only 27 yrs when Everest was indentured out, which sounds a bit young - so maybe it was the other Elizabeth, to whom he was indentured, who died around 1891 and who may have been a more mature age in1887.
Paul.
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Dear Wivenhoe,
I'm actually quite excited that you placed those last two posts - and, to be truthful, I was considering two additional, separate threads because the two stories: Julia's story (Everest's sister) and Jules Francois' story (Everest's father) are both very interesting.
As I am a neophyte to rootschat.com, I'm not sure of the best strategy; however, would it complicate the present thread too much if we shoot off on another family branch or would it be 'neater' to start a new thread?
Gold prospector.
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Maybe....leave Julia here with siblings.
A separate thread for origins of Jules ANSELINE because...........his time in NSW is brief? And a link to this thread.
Best wait to see what others think on that idea.
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:) I don't need any apology Gold prospector :)
I think Julia can definitely stay within this thread and perhaps even her dad can start here, and IF then there's a need for him to be moved, we can ask our Global Moderator to get involved and hive off some posts.
I do think that we need to post info about Dad on separate posts, without mixing info about any of the others, just in case some hiving off needs to happen once the search for him gets into the depth of details that may mean a separate thread on a different board (Europe ? or Common Room ? etc) has to happen.
Of course, that's only my view and others may have alternative solutions.
JM
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Jules ANSELINE
Jules marriage to Mary MORRIS was registered in the Carcoar District, in 1871. It is very very likely that the NSW BDM record (#1972) of that registration has many blanks, including blanks on their origins, parents etc. I do NOT encourage you to purchase the NSW BDM certificate. If you don't have info about Jules origins from the birth certs of their children, or if you have not obtained ALL the info actually recorded on the church register for Jules and Mary's marriage, you may well benefit from seeking an official transcript of the marriage registration to determine the clergy/denomination for the service.
There's now a very long thread I prepared years ago to help overcome the elusive blanks on NSW BDM registrations in the mid to late 19th century, but I think you need to know what info Jules gave FIRST HAND about himself when he married in NSW before you go back further on his origins.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0 I note the thread has been read over 21,000 times, so hopefully it has helped many RChatters.
JM (I put Jules name top left hand corner, for IF we need a global moderator to hive off some posts at some time in the future).
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Jules ANSELINE
Grevilles PO Directory 1875 PARKES
J. AUSELINE, miner, Welcome lead
JM
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Do you have death certificate for Mary McRAE, died 1913 Broken HILL?
Do you have death certificate for Charles McRAE, died 1894 Broken Hill?
What do you know about origins of Jules ANSELINE?
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Another version of the surname.
Burial Rookwood Catholic: Anslen Julius 37 3-4-1876 SEC*M1*7**89
A thread on Ancestry message boards suggested he was buried here.
If you are 'brothers8' there was a reply to the post that wasn't answered. Someone has information on Jules.
Jamjar
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Well found JJ. :) :)
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Yet another variation. :D
770/1876 ANSLIN Juleuis AGE 37 YEARS DIED SYDNEY SYDNEY
Jamjar
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Thank you for your findings as per above...
Starting with Julia:
As you know, from 1876, she served her time in the Parramatta Training School (where she was known as 'Julietta') and was then, on Dec 5, 1877 indentured out to E. A. Lumsdaine of Burwood for 5 years (whom I take to be the wife of Rev. W. Lumsdaine of Burwood - as a fellow inmate from the School was indentured to that Reverend gentleman about the same time). However, she absconded and was sent to the 'Reformatory'.
Next, I have her Marriage Certificate of Nov 10, 1883 indicating she married Thomas Nestor, 'a plasterer', age 21, at St Michael's Anglican Church, Sydney (so, presumably she was born in 1862 - maybe Lambing Flat as her parents were there at the time).
She had been living in Wattle Street, Ultimo. However, there were "letters of importance" addressed to her at 73 Forbes Street as advertised by 'a friend' in The Evening News(Sydney), 30/10/1883 and 12/12/1884.
However, she may have moved to Bourke, NSW subsequently as there was uncollected mail addressed to her there as "Miss J. Anseline" (there being no other Miss J. Anseline's to my knowledge).
1897: My next set of documents (from the Barrier Miner newspaper), relates to Broken Hill where, as Julia Nestor, she was before the Police Court for drunkenness (April, 1897 - 10 shillings or 7 days), indecent language and drunkenness (Sept 1897 - 5 pounds or 6 weeks), drunk and disorderly on another occasion (22 shillings and sixpence or 7 days), drunk and disorderly (Feb, 1898 - 4 pounds, 2 shillings or 14 days, obscene language (Aug, 1898 - 20 shillings or 7 days) and in Nov 1898, drunkenness (40s or 7 days) and indecent language (60s or 3 weeks). In all instances, she didn't pay the fine and served gaol time!
I have also saved a document(somewhere!) that shows she was gaoled for prostitution as well around that time.
Interestingly, her mother, Mary, was in trouble with the Law in Broken Hill for running a house of ill-repute in 1904. (She was know as 'Polly'!!!)
Julia probably had 2 children - James (born 1888) and John (born 1894). Both were 'Nestor' on their Birth Certificates but their care was taken over by (uncle) Everest (now married to Sarah in Broken Hill) and, thereafter the boys were Anselines.
I'm not sure when she died, however, on her mother's (Mary) Death Certificate (dated 1913) she is not listed as one of the living offspring.
So, my questions are:
Could the uncollected letters be her mother advertising for her whereabouts? (Mary Anseline had advertised under her name looking for her other children, Emily and Alfred - found in Trove)
Whatever happened to Thomas Nestor?
Was he the 'Thomas Nestor' who was the apparent ne' er do well for which there were numerous scrapes with the Law during the 1880's in Sydney up to the end of 1888 when there is an abrupt stop to anything about him (did he come to a 'messy' end considering his predisposition with petty crime often with violence?)? He may have had 2 brothers, Edward and John (who advertised the death of their father, Thomas Nestor (Snr), September, 1885) - the brothers also had had some issues with the Law too.
Sorry about the long story to date, but I thought I should give you what I already have so that this story can be built on...
Many thanks for any assistance!
Gold prospector.
PS: I might just leave the story of Jules Francois until tomorrow!
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..... (did he come to a 'messy' end considering his predisposition with petty crime often with violence?)?
He might have been using an alias, but would have be lying about his age if this is your man.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/index_image/1998_a006_a00603_1307000105r
Debra :)
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"..Julia probably had 2 children - James (born 1888) and John (born 1894). Both were 'Nestor' on their Birth Certificates..."
What is your uncertainty about these boys being children of Julia?
What birthplace and dates for them...who is informant?
Can you scan the 1913 death certificate and place here for us to see.
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This about Julia -
........ "letters of importance" addressed to her at 73 Forbes Street as advertised by 'a friend' in The Evening News(Sydney), 30/10/1883 and 12/12/1884."
Evening News 30 Oct 1883 p3
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?
Julietta Anseline - Letters of Importance for you at 73 Forbes St call immediately on your friend.
I am not seeing the notice, 12 Dec 1884, Evening News.
"..... moved to Bourke subsequently...........mail addressed to her there as "Miss J. Anseline" (there being no other Miss J. Anseline's to my knowledge).
Where are you seeing this later reference to her?
Julia married 10 Nov 1883, so you might wonder about her being known as ANSELINE after that?
On the marriage certificate, 1883, her name is (Ada, this crossed out) Julia ANSELINE.
See Ada NESTOR , Darlinghurst Jail, Dec 1884.
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Dear Debra,
I think the fact that Thomas had an alibi may be a breakthrough!! :D
May I give a little preamble here which might explain some of my conclusions to date?
The 'real' Thomas Nestor' (occupation, plasterer) was supposedly born in 1862 as he gave as his age 21 yrs, on his 1883 Marriage Certificate for his marriage to Julia Anseline.
However, I can find nothing else in subsequent years to definitively connect him to Julia.
There were a number of 'Thomas Nestors' around at that time; but the one that seems to be the main 'suspect' is this criminal 'Thomas Nestor' based on his age estimate.
For example, there is apparently a Birth Certificate for a 'Thomas Nestor' born in 1864 to parents, Thomas and Catherine (Ancestry.com)
Also there is an entry in the NSW Police Gazette of 26 Jan 1881 describing a warrant for the arrest of a 'Thomas Nestor' for riotous behaviour..."He is about 18 years of age, 5 feet, 5 inches high, slight build, freckled face..."
In fact, there were numerous reports of his arrest and imprisonment in the 1880's up until 1888 after which there is absolutely nothing.
I had assumed he came to a murky end. This would allow for him to have a child, James, with Julia, in 1888 but it wouldn't explain John who was born in 1984 (unless they/he was born to other men and the children were christened 'Nestor' because she was Julia Nestor - ?plausible - given the fact she may have had free morals - eg: she was in gaol for prostitution in the late 1890's in Broken Hill). The boys were both born in Broken Hill and were 'Nestor' on their Birth Certificates (Ancestry.com) but became 'Anseline' when (uncle) Everest (recently married to Sarah in 1897 in Broken Hill)took over their care in the late 1890's.
On the other hand, a change of name explains that problem neatly - though James and John were both born in Broken Hill.
Many thanks for the link to Thomas Hynes (alias Nestor), born 1867, though apparently he was tried in Sydney in 1893 according to that document. However, he was 5 feet 5 and a half inches tall. It would have been great if the tattoos had said 'I love Julia' instead of "I love AB" and "I love FAC"!!
If this is the guy, it's great that there is a mugshot!!
He certainly could have lied about his age from the very beginning!
Interestingly, I have noticed entries for a Thomas Hynes about that time (Ancestry.com).
Once again, many thanks! ;) ;)
Paul.
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Dear Wivenhoe,
Thanks for your recent two posts.
Yes, I also have the 'uncollected letters' notice at her Sydney addresses. I wondered if they were attempts by her mother to contact her...
The entry that was related to 'uncollected letters' in Bourke to 'Miss J Anseline' was printed in "Country Letters", Wednesday 9, 1887, as published by the NSW Govt Gazette.
I have also attached here the Death Certificate on Mary McRae (Anseline) - nee Morris.
I'd be interested in everyone's thoughts.
Gold prospector.
PS: I have Julia's Marriage Certificate but I'm not seeing the name 'Ada' crossed out and replaced with 'Julia'.
PPS: Whoops... forgot to attach document; will re-send
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Dear Wivenhoe,
Death Certificate on Mary MacRae...I've just attempted to send it, but even as a jpeg but I'm being told the document is 'too big'... I may have to transcribe it (or was there a specific bit you were interested in?)
I don't have Charles Gray McRae's Death Certificate though I do have his Marriage Certificate to Mary Anseline.
Gold prospector
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Dear Jamjar,
Thanks for your last two posts.
I have the Death Certificate for Jules Francois Anseline and his name has been entered as "Juleuis Anslm"!!!
PS: I am not brothers8
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Just to muddy the waters a little more re Thomas Nestor- it was not uncommon for people to put '21' as their age to signify that they were old enough to marry without parent/guardian consent. However if Julia had a specific age on the certificate it's likely that 21 is the age given by Thomas. (Hope you can figure out what I'm trying to say!)
Probably best to transcribe the death cert that Wivenhoe is interested in. Sometimes small details give wonderful clues.
Judith
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Anglican Parish Records - see here for marriage record, 1883, NESTOR - ANSELINE
https://search.ancestry.com.au/search/db.aspx?dbid=61177
Can you please list everything on the death certificate, Mary McRAE, 1913. I am specifically interested in everything on the certificate. Also, can you identify what this document is........image of hand written document....or a typed transcription.
Can you please list everything on the McRAE - ANSELINE marriage certificate, 1893. I am specifically interested in everything on the certificate. Also, can you identify what this document is........image of hand written document....or a typed transcription.
Who is this - NAA WW1 file?
ANSELINE James 30 years born 19 June 1880, address Wolfram Lane, North Broken Hill NSW
at Melbourne 28 Jun 1918..........."rejected".......
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Dear Judith,
Yes, I hear what you're saying: Thomas might very well have been younger, but, as Julia had given 21 yrs as her age, he did likewise...right?
Paul.
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Dear Wivenhoe,
That 'J Anseline' was James ('Jimmy') Anseline.
He was attempting to enlist go away in WW1 in, I think 1917, but what you refer to is a Medical reject report; the address he gave is that of (uncle) Everest.
He was 4 foot, 10 and three quarter inches!!! (Due, not doubt to the fact that he was born in Broken Hill (in 1888, I thought) and was probably affected by the lead pollution of the town (in utero exposure).
He is an interesting character and, through Trove, I've learnt that he was a regular boxer on Saturday nights in Broken Hill (not a champion, but often written about by the Monday sports editor!)
In fact, I have an old photo (obviously taken in a Studio) of a man 'shaping up' in boxing tights - a photo that no-one in my family could identify (until now...I think it's Jimmy, in fact).
I haven't forgotten about the Death and the Marriage Certificates, as discussed....
Gold prospector.
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Paul, it could be they actually were both 21. They could have put 21 in order not to need parental permission. It could be that he was aiming to match her in age. However the point I was making was that they could be older.
I have 3 marriage certificates where both parties put 21 but were definitely older, in one case decades older. It was just a way of signifying that they were adults and not requiring consent. In two of my cases I have seen the whole page of images from a parish church (5 other marriages as well as my ancestors) and the only 'real' ages shown are of 4 people who were minors. Everyone else has '21' in the age column.
Judith
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Dear Judith,
Thank you for that information regarding age - it makes sense that they might have been trying to be older than they actually were to avoid parental consent (or that, perhaps, possibly, they were older anyway as per the examples you cited).
It would explain the Birth Certificate showing 1864 for a 'Thomas Nestor' (or maybe even that one you found, mugshot and all, birth date in 1867).
Paul.
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Dear Wivenhoe,
The following is taken from the Death Certificate of Mary McRae.
It is an image of the certificate with handwritten entries that I requested 20 yrs ago and was issued 12/5/1997.
by Barbara Flett, Registrar.
So, column by column, it reads thus:
No: 691.
Date and Place of Death: 5 October, 1913; Crystal Street, Broken Hill.
Name: Mary McRae.
Sex and age: Female, 71 years.
Cause of Death, Duration of last illness, medical attendant, when he last saw deceased:
Malignant disease of the uterus; 12 months; J F Bartley, MB, ChB, Registered; 3 October, 1913.
Name and occupation of father; Name and maiden name of mother: Unknown Morris, unknown; unknown.
Informant: C. McRae, Son; Crystal Street, Broken Hill and E. Anseline, Son, Wolfram Lane, North Broken Hill.
Particulars of registration: S. B. (unreadable); 6 October, 1913, Broken Hill.
When and where buried, name of undertaker: 6 October, 1913, Roman Catholic Cemetery, Broken Hill; Josiah Polkinghorne.
Name and religion of Minister and name of witnesses of burial: Joseph Brennan, Roman Catholic; A. Leslie and H. Isaac.
Where born and how long in the Australasian Colonies or States: Sydney, N. S. Wales.
Place of marriage, age and to whom: 1) a) Sydney, N. S.Wales; b) Broken Hill, N. S. Wales; 2) a) 21 years, b) 45 years; 3) a) Julius Anseline, b) Charles McRae.
Children of Marriage: a) Emily, 45 years, Everest 40 years, Frederick, 38 years, living; 1 male and 1 female deceased; b) Agnes, 30 years, Charles 38 years - (born before marriage); 2 males deceased (born before marriage).
Last column: Registration affected with instructions from Registrar-General letter dated 27 October, 1913. B.D.M. 13/9023.
Many thanks for your comments,
Gold prospector
PS: Marriage Certificate for Charles Gray McRae to follow.
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Dear Wivenhoe,
Below is the Marriage Certificate details for Charles Gray McRae, taken from an image of the handwritten document that I requested 20 years ago and issued in Sydney, 10th February, 1997 by Barbara Flett, Registrar.
Column by column, it reads as follows:
No: 219.
Date and Place of Marriage: 30th November, 1893; Broken Hill.
Names and Surnames of Parties: Charles Gray McRae; Mary Anseline.
Conjugal Status: Bachelor; Widow.
Birthplace: America; Sydney.
Usual occupation: Miner; Housekeeper.
Age; 56: 45.
Usual Place of Residence: Broken Hill; Broken Hill.
Father's name, mother's name and maiden name:
Alexander McRae, Agnes Hardy; Richard Morris, Mary (surname unknown).
Father's occupation: Customs Officer; Baker.
Underneath is written:
Married in the District Registrar's Office, Broken Hill.
According to: Acts of Council, No. 19, Victoria No.30
No. 55 Victoria No. 34
And to the right of the page:
This Marriage was solemnised between us: Chas. Gray McRae; Mary Anseline.
In the Presence of: E. T. Slee; C.P.Slee.
Before me: (unreadable) Gibson, Officiating Registrar.
Once again, thank you for your comments,
Gold prospector.
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Dear majm,
I thought this might be a reasonable point to bring Jules Francois Anseline into the 'mix'.
The following is a brief summary of my research to date and comments would be appreciated:
One of the most informative documents I have on him is the image of the handwritten Birth Certificate of his youngest child. The contents are as follows:
Date and place of birth of child- 10 March, 1874; Welcome Lead near Parkes.
Name- Frederick Jules.
Father's name, occupation, age and birthplace- Jules Anseline; Miner; 30 years; Mauritius.
Date and place of marriage, previous issue- 16 March 1865; Young, NSW; 2 males living; 2 females, living; 1 male, deceased; 1 female, deceased.
Mother's name and maiden surname, age and birthplace- Mary Morriss; 26 years; Sydney, NSW.
Informant- Certified by Mary Anseline; Mother; Parkes.
Witness- Mrs Harmer.
Particulars of registration- Stephen Freeman, 28 May 1874, Forbes; After declaration duly made according to law.
I note that Mary gave as their marriage date, 1865 (above), though there is a Marriage Certificate dated 21st July, 1871, handwritten, at French Man's Reef near Carcoar for Jules Anseline and Mary Morris (Conjugal status - 'Bachelor and Spinster'), in the Rites of the Roman Catholic Church. On the certificate, it also states that his occupation was gold digger and usual place of residence was Frenchman's Reef; the marriage was solemnised between Jules and Mary though on the signature line there is an 'x' her mark.
Death Certificate (handwritten) for 'Jules Anseline'. infant, died May 4, 1866 at Black Range, (Albury); buried at Albury; undertaker, Victore Audrieux; Witness, Augustin Sanson; age 24 months; died of convulsions of 13 hours duration; Father: Jules Francois Anseline, mother Mary Morris.
In 'The Freeman's Journal' May 18, 1872: Subscriptions taken at the laying of the Foundation stone of the new Convent at Carcoar on 21st April 1872; Jules Anseline (with many others) gave a 5 shilling donation (last name on list)
I have a 'family heirloom' which is the actual Miners Rights certificate issued to Jules Anseline by the NSW Government in the 'Western District' on January 1, 1873.
In the NSW Government Gazette September 14, 1875, "Inland Letters", there is an entry for "65. Anseline Monsieur Jules, St Vincent's Hospital" (Trove) (?A letter returned to the dead letter office).
Death Certificate (hand written) for 'Juleius Anslm': died 1 April 1876, Sydney Infirmary, age 37 years; Cause of death, paraplegia, 4 days in hospital; Dr Gillman saw him last 31 March. Buried at the Catholic Necropolis; Where born and how long: Mauritius, 20 years.
He is in Mortuary 1, Section 7, grave number 89; no headstone (I visited there once).
Finally, (from Ancestry.com) in "Slave Registers of former British Colony Dependencies", 1813-1834, there was a slave owner by the name of Anseline who had 3 slaves registered in 1830.
So, maybe Jules' family had sugar cane plantations in Mauritius, but when slavery was dismantled and the Mauritian economy was severely affected, a young Jules Francois headed off to Australia in the 1850's (after all, there was a gold rush on at the time!)
What do you think?
Paul
PS: I visited Mauritius 10 years ago; there were 27 'Anselines' in the Telephone Directory of Port Louis! Although I had a bit of language help at BDM in Port Louis, I got nowhere (the excuse/reason was that much of those early documents have been destroyed by cyclones over the years ??? - and I wasn't convinced they were all that keen to take the trouble to look for me) ???
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This is possibly a connection to your Jules ANSELINE -
BDM VIC marriage
1856 / 085 ANSELINE Louis Cambrone marr. TINNION Catherine
Catherine ANSELINE died 14 Oct 1903 Greymouth NZ. Beneficiary of her estate is husband Louis, so you might suspect there were no children.
Louis Cambronne ANSELINE died 2 May 1904 Lawson, NSW. Will file to see by Familysearch -
..my brothers Montrose and Mombell both of Mauritius
..my two illegitimate children by Emma D'MAY also of Mauritius
..my niece Florence DIND of Sydney
..my nephew Edward ANCHOR, painter, Sydney
BDM NSW death
5718/1904 ANSELINE Louis C 75 YRS LAWSON Katoomba
SMH 4 May 1904 p8
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14617677?
..death notice for Louis ANSELINE, late Greymouth, NZ....
BDM NZ births
1868/22598 ANCHER Florence Josephine parents Florence / Edward Andrew
1870/24886 ANCHER Edward Albert parents Florence / Edward Andrew
1872/26024 ANCHER Frederick William parents Florence / Edward Andrew
BDM NSW marriage
560/1888 ANCHER Florence J marr. DIND Arthur T @ Sydney
Labour Daily 14 Jul 1936 p4
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/237745435?
...obit Edward Albert ANCHER....came from NZ with parents..........
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Dear Wivenhoe,
Thanks for that.
Yes, I've been aware of Cambronne Anseline and his wife, Catherine Tinnion, for some time but can't make out what the connection with Jules Francois could be.
I guess I've just concluded that since there are so many 'Anselines' in Mauritius (see above story), he may have come to Australia independently at another time (though, admittedly, perhaps somehow related back in Mauritius to a much earlier Anseline ancestor).
I was hopeful my visit to BDM in Port Louis might cast some light but that visit was unsuccessful for the reasons I gave (above)....??frequent cyclones that damaged records, ?slightly reluctant BDM staff.
Nevertheless, might Mauritian Family History documents be available from some other source (other than Ancestry.com which I've tried)? I should add that I visited my local LDS Library once and, on a punt, got them to bring in Mauritian BDM records from around 1838-1844 (my estimate as to possible birth dates for Jules), but the 19th century French writing and condition of the Microfiche was too challenging - but maybe could be worth another try.
What is your opinion?
Gold prospector.
PS: I've have had no help with Immigration Records either (I guess the challenge is to identify which port he came to and hope that he didn't come in steerage!)
PPS: I met some of the Anselines in Port Louis when I was there and they have a Creole appearance which makes me wonder if the slaves who may have be been 'owned' by the Anseline family there took the "Master's" name, since the British Government required them to have a name for recording purposes.
PPS: Years ago, I did the National Geographic DNA ancestry test (ie: not the current test which just looks at the autosomes) and my deep genetic ancestry (on the paternal side) is unequivocally of southern French origin from thousands of years ago.
Gold prospector.
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Dear Wivenhoe,
I've revisited the possibility of Louis Cambrone Anseline being connected with Jules Francois, based on your most recent post.
As you probably already know, Louis Cambrone's Marriage Certificate shows him married to Catherine Tinnion on 9th Feb, 1856 in the Minister's House, Carisbrook (which Google tells me is in Victoria). He was 28 years and she, 18 years. I have the hand-written certificate.
They both say they were living in Daisy Hill.
He gives his birthplace as Mauritius and she, Harrington, Cumberland.
His occupation ...Digger
He gives his father as Francois Anseline (Farmer) and mother, Eliz Murrett. Catherine gives her parents as John Tinnion (Mariner) and Eliza Johnson.
I have Louis' hand-written Death Certificate and it reads as follows:
Date and Place of Death: 1904, May 2nd; Lawson, NSW.
Name and occupation: Louis Cambron Anseline; Boarding House Keeper.
Sex and Age: Male; 75 years.
Cause of Death, Duration of last illness; Medical attendant, when he last saw deceased: Dilatation of the heart; Fatty degeneration; few hours; W. F. Quaife, MB, Registered; May 2, 1904.
Name and occupation of father, Name and maiden surname of mother: Unknown; unknown; unknown.
Informant: A. T. Dind; Nephew; Cowles Road, Mosman, Sydney, NSW.
Particulars of Registration: (unreadable) Nash; May 3rd; Katoomba, NSW.
When and where buried; Name of Undertaker: May 4, 1904; Roman Catholic Cemetery, Gore Hill, NSW; John Chandler.
Name and Religion of Minister and names of witnesses of burial: John Roney; Roman Catholic; A. T. Dind, William Arnott.
Where born and how long in the Australasian colonies or states: Paris, France; Victoria, 5 years; New Zealand, 40 years; NSW, 10 days.
Place of marriage, age and to whom: Melbourne, Victoria; 30 years; unknown.
Children of Marriage: No issue.
I have investigated 'A. T. Dind', nephew.
I reasoned that, if, indeed a nephew, the most straightforward relationship would be as an offspring of a sister of Louis Cambrone or sister of Catherine Tinnion.
However, the parents of A. T. Dind (whom I believe to be Arthur Tait Dind), born 1865, were William F. Dind and Jane Fowler. Jane died in 1896.
Now, Arthur Tait Dind married Florence J. Ancher in 1888, as per your post, and her parents were Edward A. Ancher and Ethel P. However, I can't determine whether Ethel P. was an 'Anseline' or a 'Tinnion'. However, as per your post, there is a reference to '...my niece, Florence Dind...' so perhaps Ethel P will prove to be a 'Tinnion' or 'Anseline' and Arthur was related to Louis by marriage?
Do you think that line of enquiry is worth pursuing any further?
As you indicated, the other line of enquiry is via Montrose , Mombell and Emma M'Day from Mauritius through Familysearch. Is that correct?
Many thanks for your assistance with this!
Gold prospector.
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At reply #56 I have identified three births in New Zealand to Edward Andrew ANCHER and Florence
NZ BDM deaths
1875/5841 ANCHER Frederick John 12M
1872/9725 ANCHER Frederick William 6W
The death, 1872, would be the birth, 1872. The death 1875 is likely a second Frederick, with birth (NZ?) not recorded, or transcription error making it difficult to locate. That leaves Edward Albert ANCHER (b. 1870) and sister Florence ANCHER (b. 1868).
NSW BDM marriage
560/1888 ANCHER Florence J marr. DIND Arthur T @ Sydney
6556/1897 AUCHER Edward A marr. PARSONS Ethyl P @ Wollongong
NSM BDM death
1925 / 10451 DIND Florence J parents EDWARD (56 YRS COAST HOS @ Redfern
1936 / 13280 ANCHER Edward Albert parents Albert Andrew / Florence Josephine @ Chatswood
Florence is the sister of Edward Albert ANCHER who married Ethel P.
The Enquirer and Commercial News 28 Sep 1887
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66082205?
...story naming Edward ANCHER....Mr Ancher has left for England........
Sydney Mail and New South Wales Advertiser 11 Aug 1888 p313
......ANCHER - DIND marriage notice....Florence Josephine daughter of the late Edward ANCHER......
BDM NZ death
1878/1023 ARCHER Florence 35Y Kumara Times has her as ANCHER.
Ancestry family tree has her as Mary Florence TINNION..........(sister to Catherine ANSELINE?)
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Jules ANSELINE is being difficult to locate in my offline NSW resources. ::)
But Wivenhoe has been mentioning DIND .... I hope these are helpful and not side-tracking....
SOME DIND SIGHTINGS IN NORTHERN SYDNEY SUBURBS
NSW Electoral Roll 1902 NORTH SYDNEY, polling at Mosman’s Bay
Agnes DIND C/o Hank’s, Military Road, domestic duties.
NO OTHERS by DIND surname at that polling place.
NSW Electoral Roll 1902 NORTH SYDNEY, polling at Milson’s Point (ie includes Fitzroy St)
NONE with surname DIND. It was NOT compulsory to enrol.
NSW ER 1878 ST LEONARDS
William DIND, Milsons Point, Freehold
William Forster DIND, Milsons Point, householder
NSW ER 1870 ST LEONARDS
William DIND, Milsons Point, Freehold
William Forster DIND, Milsons Point, householder
Sands 1900 Suburban Directory
Alfred St, North Sydney
North side of Alfred St
81 Alfred St, J Pegnan, grocer
Then a cross st, ie Fitzroy St
Then
87 Alfred St, Dind’s hotel – Kate Connell
Sands 1890 Sydney Alphabetical directory
DIND
Arthur, Willoughby St, St Leonards East
William, Sen., Fitzroy St, St Leonards East
William D., Dind’s Hotel, Alfred St, St Leonards East
Sands 1877 Alpha
DIND, W.T. Dind’s hotel, Lane Cove, St Leonards East
DIND, William, Fitzroy St, St Leonards East
Sands 1892 Suburban Directory
Alfred St, North Sydney,
North side of Alfred St:
58 Alfred : Charles H STEWART, grocer
Then there’s a cross street : Fitzroy St
Then there’s Dind’s Hotel, William D DIND
Then:
64 Alfred St, T.P. FOSTER, poulterer and provision merchant
I see that as early as 1866, that Dind’s Hotel was available as a venue for for clergy to marry couples.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/60601399 Empire 23 Oct1866
W.D. and Mary Ann DIND’s baby daughter succumbed in July 1895 aged just 1 year and ten months.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13982668 SMH 29 July 1895
Wiliam Don DIND aged 34 yrs, died same year, eldest son of WF DIND
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14021739 SMH 21 Oct1895
Jack (William Wilton) DIND son of the lawte William Don and Mary Ann DIND died 9 Aug 1913
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15442394 SMH 11 Aug 1913
From the Aldine Centennial History of NSW 1888
William DIND, JP, abt 75 years old, native of London, arrived Hobart 1834 to Sydney 1838, and became connected with the Victoria and Prince of Wales Theatres, for 30 years. Then settled on Sydney’s North Shore, opened Lily of St Leonards Hotel. 9 Years an Alderman, 5 as Mayor of St Leonards.
ADD
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
JM
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Retyped after keyboard issues sorted ::)
NSW ER 1902 NORTH SYDNEY, polling at The Spit
DIND:
Arthur T, Cowles Rd, clerk
Emily Rosetta, Belmont Road, Domestic Duties,
Florence Josephine, Cowles Rd, Domestic duties
Leslie Arthur, Belmont Road, Labourer
Nea (a female), Belmont Road, domestic duties
William F, Belmont Road, Independent Means.
JM
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Dear majm,
Thank you for the information about the Dinds.
As you know, Arthur T. Dind was the Informant on Louis Cambrone Anseline's handwritten Death Certificate (which I have - see above) and he indicated that he was a nephew of the deceased. So, the hope was that, through him, we might find out more about Louis' siblings (conjecture: was Jules Francois Anseline one of them?). (Incidentally, Arthur's father was the William F. Dind you identified).
However, as you can see from my deductions in my last post, I could not confirm that a sister of Louis or a sister of his wife, Catherine Tinnion, were Arthur. T. Dind's mothers (Ancestry.com). His mother was Jane Fowler.
Now, Arthur. T. Dind was married to Florence J. Ancher. So, I looked at her mother's potential maiden names (Ancestry.com) to see if she had been an 'Anseline' or 'Tinnion' but could only come up with 'Ethel P' :(
Hypothesis: If Ethel P. proves to be an 'Anseline', then maybe that finding might, maybe, lead us indirectly back to Jules. However, if she is a 'Tinnion', then I can't see how this line of enquiry will provide any additional clues to Jules.
Returning to Arthur, when his father's wife, Jane Fowler, died (in 1896), I considered the possibility of his father remarrying (to an 'Anseline' or 'Tinnion' lady)...so that Arthur could then be a step-nephew. However, that's probably a very long shot...they would have been an old couple!
I would be grateful for your comments and if you have any other way we might identify Ethel P.
Gold prospector
PS: An interesting little aside is that, of Arthur's 5 children, one was named 'Arthur Cambronne'.
PPS: Should I be starting these 'Jules Anseline' posts with bold type, as you have been doing?
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After Julia Anseline (Everest's sister) married Thomas Nestor on November 10, 1883, in Sydney, her subsequent life journey is a mystery until she eventually turned up in Broken Hill (reunited with her mother, Mary Anseline/McRae) where, in 1897, she was in and out of gaol on prostitution charges.
However, as well as trying to work out what she did, I'd like to be sure about which Thomas Nestor she actually married:
!) the one who died of 'phthisis' (TB) in Sydney Hospital in 1888 (born about 1864), or
2) the petty criminal (also born about 1864) who changed his name to Thomas Hynes in the late 1880's and continued in and out of gaol up to, at least 1893.
Can anyone help?
Gold prospector
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You should expect NSW bdm death cert (or official transcription) to name the spouse of the deceased and so learn which of those chaps were married to her.
JM
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Hi majm,
Thanks for that...
I've seen the Death Certificate on the Thomas Nestor who died in 1885 (the reason I can see he died of TB), but unfortunately the name of mother and father are 'not stated' and the column for 'marriage, age and to whom' is completely blank (!)
However, I'll see if I can chase up a Death Certificate on Thomas Hynes (alias Nestor).
Gold prospector
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Julia (Julietta) Anseline was married to a 'Thomas Nestor' in 1883 in Sydney.
As per my post above, there were two possible Thomas Nestors.
One of them died of TB in December in Sydney Hospital in 1888, the other was last heard of going to gaol in Sydney (yet again!) in 1893.
I have since found what I believe to be Birth Records of two of Julia's children from about that time, James and John.
For James, the summary reads "NAME: James E Nestor, BIRTH DATE: 1888, BIRTH PLACE: NSW, REGISTRATION PLACE: Broken Hill, NSW; FATHER -Thomas Nestor, MOTHER - Julietta, REGISTRATION NUMBER: 37269, HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS: Julietta, Thomas Nestor, James E Nestor".
For John, the summary reads "John A Nestor, BIRTH DATE: 1894, BIRTH PLACE: NSW, REGISTRATION YEAR: 1894, REGISTRATION PLACE: Broken Hill, NSW, FATHER: Nestor, MOTHER: Julietta, REGISTRATION NUMBER: 7851"
So, is the above strong enough evidence to conclude that Julia's 'Thomas Nestor' was, more than likely, the petty criminal?
(Because the only other possibility is that the other 'Thomas Nestor' had a child, James, with Julia, in his last year of life; then, Julia had another child, John, to another man in 1894, but who took the surname 'Nestor' because that was Julia's married name.....?) ???
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JULES FRANCOIS ANSELINE
Despite the modest information in the above posts (ie: his Death Certificate, his youngest son's Birth Certificate, his Marriage Certificate and the questionable relationship with Cambronne Anseline), I continue to have trouble finding anything more on my great grandfather, Jules Francois Anseline who emigrated to Australia from Mauritius probably in the mid 19th century.
Does anyone know if records from Mauritius are obtainable from somewhere? :)
Gold prospector
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Hi All,
My connection to this thread is Mary MORRIS who is my gg grandmother via Agnes MACRAE my g grandmother.
A few points I have found over the years of my research (and I am brothers8 on Ancestry) The Parish register marriage entry for Thomas NESTOR (plasterer) and Julia ANSELINE does have Ada crossed out - could mean something or nothing. The parents of Thomas NESTOR are shown as Thomas NESTOR (indexed on Ancestry as LESTOR) and Catherine Taylor NORTH. Julia's parents are show as Thomas ANSELINE and Marry MORRIS.
The first child born to Julia and Thomas was James Ernest NESTOR and his father is shown as Thomas NESTOR baker 25 and James was born near Junction Mine - Mother Julietta ANSELINE 23 born at Lambing Flat. Mary Anseline was present at the birth. I can't find a clear reference to him after this, the death record at Sydney Hospital for Thomas NESTOR was filled in by the Secretary of the Hospital so he probably didn't have the details re parentage or marriage unfortunately. He was buried at the Roman Catholic Cemetery Rookwood
The second child is shown as John Alfred NESTOR born at Crystal St Broken Hill and one of those present at birth was Mrs Macrae. The father is just shown as NESTOR but John is listed as illegitimate. Julietta is shown as 27 years and born at Young.
I hope it is okay to jump into the thread
Lorraine
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Jules ANSELINE
There are a couple of things here I'd like to add to what has already been indicated.
The marriage register entry for the Catholic Church Carcoar shows Jules birthplace France - no age - no parents listed for either bride or groom. Witnesses are shown as Charles DUMONT and Anne Mary FOREST, marriage 21 July 1871 at the Curate House.
The age of Jules on Frederick's birth (30) would put him at born about 1844 - by this time Mauritius was in English hands. But in 1876 (two years later) he is shown as 37 on his death certificate - informant was the Secretary of the Infirmary - so possibly did not have all information - but put Mauritius down as his place of birth. He is also shown as having lived 20 years in the colony.
Hope that helps
Lorraine
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Hi, I am sure you are most welcome to join in :D :D :D
Re the marriage at Carcoar, do you have the parish register entry and are you saying that it does not give up the names of the parents of the bride and groom or are you referring to the NSW BDM summary record which for that era likely does not include the information provided by the bride and groom to the clergy re their parents... :D NSW BDM website 'admits' their records may not have all the information that the church registers included...
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history-research/registry-records.aspx
In 1912 the Registrar General wrote to all the Church authorities requesting that they allow him access to their pre-1856 registers so that a complete reconciliation could be made between Registry and Church Records. The Registry's Early Church Records were consolidated into Volumes and each entry was allocated a unique number. When the reconciliation was complete there were 158 Volumes of Early Church Records with approximately 50,000 entries.
The Registry took this opportunity to request access to the 1856 to 1895 church marriages registers. Some Registry marriage records from these years recorded only the details pertaining to the parties to the marriage. Details of the parents had been left blank although they appeared in the Church registers. These registrations were amended and a notation made in the margin to record the circumstances of the amendment.
The task of reconciling the Early Church Records and amending the marriage registrations was never finalised. The Registry's records from these years are not complete and it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate or in the case of a birth, a baptism record where there is no corresponding civil registration.
Likely the parish register for that 1871 marriage may be in the Church archives at Bathurst.
http://www.bathurst.catholic.org.au/?i=63&diocese
Agh ... the 1883 marriage ... within the Sydney C of E diocese ... I am attaching two snips to support your comments re the information on it, and the 'scribble' handwriting by the clergy in recording the information that the bride and groom provided...
I expect the Carcoar Roman Catholic registry to include similar headings to the St Michaels (Flinders St Surry Hills) C of E registry. There were some administrative changes to the NSW Registrar General's functions circa 1871-2, including not just on the Land Titles functions but also on the bdm aspects too, but the clergy continued to hesitate to forward full details of their marriages until around 1895ish.
JM
ADD, notice the church record has notated the NSW BDM reference no. outside of the left margin :D 1674 ;D ;D
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JM,
The record I have is a copy of the Parish Register entry - these registers and many for the Catholic Diocese of Bathurst were copied by the Society of Australian Genealogists for preservation and access a few years ago. They are available on the electronic resources at the Library at Level 2 379 Kent street Sydney.
The full transcription of all field is:
No: blank
When and where married: 21 July 1871 French Man's Reef
Name and surname of parties: Jule Anseline Mary Morris
Condition of the parties: blank
Birth Place: France Australia
Rank or professions: Gold digger Servant
Ages: blank
Residence: Present: French Man's Reef French Man's Reef
Parents Names and Profession: Blank
Then in the area below these fields.
Married In: Curate House
Signed - the handwriting throughout is all the same so I expect the minister wrote it out.
I also have the transcription of what was sent in to the registry office. Unfortunately, especially at this time (especially in such remote places), many ministers, but especially Catholic Priests didn't collect all the information the Registers had fields for.
It was rather frustrating when I accessed the copy of the register to see that there was no further information - I did get excited there for a bit when I saw I could get the parish register entry - such is life. ::)
Lorraine
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Don't build your hopes up just yet, but ... the clergy in many denominations kept two registers concurrently. So, for example, one in a safe place within the Church building, and one in a safe place within the Manse. And, ... many clergy kept diaries ... so depending on the habits of the clergyman who married the couple at Carcoar in 1871, it may be that the info was recorded in one registry and only a summary transferred across to the other 'back up'registry OR even perhaps the clergy transmitted only a summary to the Bishop. I am sure only a summary went to the NSW Reg Gen, and I am sure you are familiar with that process. :) its the late Nick Vine-Hall's technique to seek out the original of the original that I am suggesting. :) Aim to get hold of every possible 'record'of that marriage to seek out each piece of information. :) :)
;D ;D
JM
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So, aim for the record that actually includes the real signatures (or marks) made by the couple :) and work forward from that :D
JM
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Just by way of clarification, the parish registers that were copied by the Society of Australian Genealogists as part of their Joint Copy Project were supplied by the Archivist at the Bathurst Diocese and are referred to in the document linked on http://www.bathurst.catholic.org.au/?i=74&diocesan-archives about Family History Researchers Policy.
Lorraine
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I had another look at the registers for Carcoar, this time the baptism register.
On the 20th July 1871 there were three Anseline children baptised.
Julia - born July 1864; Emily - born 12 August 1866; Alfred - born 12 September 1868.
The birth of Emily is probably not right as we know there was a son, Jules born 18 April 1866 and died 4 May 1866. I suspect, as it was some years later, that the memory was not accurate (all birth dates should probably be treated as incorrect).
Lorraine
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Hi Lorraine,
Have you considered contacting Gold prospector to share and compare your family research, swap documents and oral histories?
I am not a family member, but I do have a long standing interest in the Central West of NSW in the 1800s, not just family history, but also local and applied history for anything west of say Mt Victoria ... and so too do several of my own living elderly relatives, including retired clergy and retired NSW BDM senior officers, and retired Archivists (originally NSW but then seconded to Canberra).
One of these rellies was involved in the practical issues back when SAG was involved in the filming of the parish registers. So, it is possible that the Carcoar register that was filmed was perhaps not the one that should have those elusive details. Some denominations did not enforce the concept of back up registers, but I have found various unfilmed parish registers in all sorts of 'odd' places ...
Here is a long thread that I prepared ages ago and have updated several times, re those elusive blanks on those NSW BDM marriage certs.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
JM
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Hi Lorraine,
Thank you for your email. :)
We first communicated on Ancestry a couple of years ago!
I can certainly validate your discoveries to date including the 3 Baptisms on July 20, 1871 and the marriage of Jules and Mary the following day in Frenchmans Reef.
In fact, I had come by that information through email contact with the Bathurst Archivist recently in an attempt to discover where Everest was born (my current guess is 'near Parkes', Welcome Lead).
I must say that JM has been extremely helpful in guiding my enquiries :D and I would refer you to a thread I started in August entitled,'Jules F Anseline, Mauritius, Gold and Slaves'.
My 'brick wall' at the moment is not being able to find anything that Jules said about himself that would assist us back to Mauritius.
Cheers,
Gold Prospector
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Paul,
I went back to see when that earlier communication was and was surprised to see it was back in 2009 - almost 10 years ago. I have been busy with other lines and family commitments - not to mention work. It is good to be in contact again.
So on to this present line of discussion;
After Julia Anseline (Everest's sister) married Thomas Nestor on November 10, 1883, in Sydney, her subsequent life journey is a mystery until she eventually turned up in Broken Hill (reunited with her mother, Mary Anseline/McRae) where, in 1897, she was in and out of gaol on prostitution charges.
On the birth transcripts for James Ernest NESTOR 1888 is shown as being born at Junction Mine near Broken Hill, and aside from the other details recorded - there is - Present at Birth - Mary Anseline is shown.
John Alfred NESTOR 1894 was born at Crystal Street Broken Hill is shown as illegitimate and Present at his birth was Mary McRae.
These clearly show that Julia/Julietta was reunited with her mother at least as early as 1888.
An aside:
I noted that there was some discussion about a Louis ANSELINE - I found his arrival in Victoria in 1853 on Sans Parella - all 25 on the page are listed as Gold Seekers and are recorded as British Subjects Natives of Mauritius (Meaning they were born there) - just for interest.
I also found an unclaimed Ships letter - that is one coming by ship not from within Victoria - for a Jules ANSELINE in in the Victorian Government Gazette dated 27 January 1859. This indicates that Jules was expected to be in Victoria at that date. I have been unable to locate an arrival record for Jules ANSELINE to date.
There is also that Unclaimed Letter (Inland Letters) to Monsieur Jules ANSELINE in 14 September 1875 indicating he was expected to be in St Vincent's Hospital. His death certificate indicates he was at the Sydney Infirmary for 4 days. I have sent an email to the St Vincent's archives office to see if it is possible that any record of his time in St Vincent's survives (a long shot I know but I have long wondered what happened to him and there doesn't seem to be a report in the newspapers)
Anyway that is my bit for now.
Lorraine
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Hi Lorraine,
Yes, I have also found Julia's story after her 1883 Nestor marriage to be a mystery until Broken Hill. ???
As you probably read from the above thread, I was trying to work out whether the 'Thomas Nestor' she married was the one who died, aged 24 years, in Sydney Hospital from TB on 23rd December 1888 or another 'Thomas Nestor' who had a long history of petty crime in Sydney (see Trove) at least until 1893 when he was sent to Bathurst Gaol as 'Thomas Hynes' (nee Nestor). After that, I've lost any trace of him (maybe because of another name change or because he came to a 'messy' end!).
So, could the two Nestor boys, James and John, born 1888 and 1894, have both been illegitimate? Were the Broken Hill birth transcripts you mentioned their Birth Certificates?
Finally, I haven't been able to find any documents on her after 1898 - however, there is a family story from my older cousin who said that Everest came home one day with the young boys and said to his wife, Sarah, 'we're going to have to raise them now...' There is evidence that they assumed the Anseline surname - I think I got that off Ancestry but will check again.
That information you have on Louis Anseline is indeed interesting - were the 25 other gold seekers, on the ship, named or were they just '25 others'? (Incidentally, on the other RootsChat thread, 'Jules F Anseline, Mauritius, gold and slaves' from August this year, there is a bit more on Louis Cambronne Anseline, for your information).
Good luck with the St Vincents Hospital enquiry (I phoned Sydney Hospital some years ago to ask about any archival records on Jules Francois' terminal care there but was greeted with a polite chuckle!) :-[
I know we're jumping about a bit here, but, in relation to Mary's second husband, Charles Gray McRae (your ancestor), I read somewhere he was born in Cleveland, Ohio, in the USA but have lost track of the source. Did you ever track his birthplace down to Cleveland?
Sorry - there are 4 questions there for you thoughts! :-[
There are so many interesting potential stories in our family history, but I guess we should try and stay focussed! :)
Paul.
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Paul,
The transcripts are from NSW birth registrations - through one of the transcriptions agents
I believe that since Thomas Nestor is named as the father of James - he is his father.
Since there is no name in the father field on John's registration he would have been illegitimate.
Interesting - the story about Everest and Sarah taking the boys - would be really good to know when that happened - we can keep on dreaming there I guess.
I have both boys under the name of ANSELINE in electoral rolls living in the same address in Broken Hill (522 Crystal Street). There are newspaper articles relating to a James (Jimmy) ANSELINE claiming compensation and later his death notices in Broken Hill. Dying in 1945 (variously recorded as James Ernest Anseline or James Everest Anseline). I have tagged all these articles with the names so that they come up towards the top of the results list when searching on Trove.
John Alfred ANSELINE appears to have ended up in South Australia (he was a blacksmith) - I have a marriage for a John Alfred ANSELINE to a Maud KING in 1948. He died in Adelaide in 1966 and is buried in West Terrace Cemetery. I haven't proof that this is the same person as the one in Broken Hill except that the name doesn't seem to appear in the electoral rolls after 1937.
Julia is certainly a problem - though the index to the gaol records seem to end in 1898 which might explain that. A visit to State Archives might reveal more - I have been able to see the registers for other family gaol birds from the 1920s so it is always possible there is more to see that is not indexed online as yet. She doesn't appear in the bdm indexes for South Australia or NSW or Qld under Anseline or Nestor.
The immigration of Louis ANSELINE is the digital copy of the shipping list and has all passengers named - also has the cabin passengers named on another page. There were only 36 passengers on board and the ship had called at Adelaide dropping off and picking up passengers there before continuing on to Melbourne.
I am not holding my breath for the St Vincent's archives - I just thought it is worth asking - you just never know.
Charles Gray MACRAE states on the birth of Agnes that he was born in Cleveland Ohio, his death certificate and marriage both show him being born in America.
I have the marriage of those I believe to be his parents - Pipe Major Alexander McKenzie Fraser MACRAE 71st Highland Regiment Light Infantry and Agnes HARDIE in Edinburgh in 1835. The regiment then went to Canada and fought in the region around Toronto. I have recollections of seeing that the couple then went to America and Cleveland is just across the Great Lakes from the Toronto region. The Lieutenant-Colonel of the Regiment was, at the time Charles Grey or Gray - Speculative but possible. I haven't, as yet, found the birth record (not unusual for US birth records for the time) and I haven't found his arrival in Australia. I also haven't found his father anywhere listed as a Customs Officer except on Charles Gray MACRAE's death certificate.
I think that answers the questions you posed - let me know if you want anything else. I live close to State Archives so don't hesitate to ask for lookups - I work full time but can get there.
Lorraine
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There are a couple of websites that might be of interest with the Roman Catholic Orphanage for the Anseline children when they were placed in care and then subsequent possible places they may have been. (if you haven't seen them before)
http://www.parragirls.org.au/orphanage.php very interesting reading and I think this orphanage was on the current land the Parramatta Campus of Western Sydney University now sits. Part of the land was that used for the orphan school.
The other one is for Biloela Admissions http://nis.wikidot.com/biloela if you search on the page you will find Anseline entries.
Hope they are of interest
Lorraine
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Lorraine,
Thank you for those links and, also, I'm grateful for your offer to visit the Western Sydney Archives for me :)
Regarding the Anseline children, I can confirm that Everest and Alfred were place on the 'Vernon' and Julia and Emily were placed at Biloela, when Mary went to gaol in 1876-7. Of the boys, I think that Alfred must have been old enough to be indentured out but Everest may have gone back to Mary in Parkes when she was let out of gaol, given his young age. The girls were subsequently indentured out to people in Sydney - Emily served her time in Sydney but Julia absconded (I recall getting that information off Ancestry, but will check).
However, I don't have anything further on Julia up until her 1883 marriage.
Do you have a sense as to which 'Thomas Nestor' she was married to (to the petty criminal or to the 24 year-old who died of TB in 1888)? ???
Paul.
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Paul,
Thomas NESTOR is a bit of a problem, to say the least.
I checked through all of the entries for Thomas NESTOR Gaol entries and there appears to be a run of dates from 1880 to 1888 in Darlinghurst (in one instance the Thomas Nestor mentioned is transferred to Parramatta Gaol - 1887). Most of the charges were for riotous behaviour, bad language and assault.
These are all confided to the greater Sydney area. Looking at the date of birth for the first child of Julia, James would have been conceived some time around September 1887, Thomas was not in gaol between June and November of 1887.
We could speculate that Julia, realising she was pregnant, went back to her mother (possible)
The Thomas NESTOR alias Thomas HYNES was charged in Bathurst and sentenced to Bathurst Gaol for receiving. - this in 1893.
I checked Trove last night and happened across an entry in 1927 for the death of Thomas John HYNES (also known as Tom NESTOR) 61 years old. (I have tagged these newspaper notices with the name) but it was in the Sydney Morning Herald for 17 Sep 1927. The death index shows his parents as Michael and Charlotte, 21570/1927, Newtown. There is a birth registration for Thomas J HINES father Michael; Mother Charlotte in Redfern - 3363/1866
This Thomas HYNES married Hannah A DILLON in 1888 in Newtown.
From this I would suggest that the Thomas HYNES alias Thomas NESTOR is not the Thomas NESTOR husband of Julia ANSELINE. (The marriage of Thomas and Julia shows his parents as Thomas NESTOR and Catherine Taylor NORTH. (I am inclined to think that this Thomas is the one who died in 1888 - the gaol entries in Darlinghurst and Parramatta stop in February of 1888 - but there is not enough evidence to prove it from the records found so far)
Lorraine
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Lorraine,
Reading your email makes me now wonder if I my theory about Thomas was a bit too simple...
I had concluded there were just 2 possible Thomases - one, with the long history of petty crime, culminating in the Bathurst imprisonment as Thomas Hynes (nee Nestor) in 1893 and the other, a Thomas Nestor (of who I'm not sure whether he had a criminal history or not), who died aged 24 of TB in Sydney Hospital in December 1888. On his Death Certificate (handwritten), it states he was a labourer, in hospital with phthisis for 1 month and 24 days, but (unfortunately) parents' names and occupations 'not stated'.
Incidentally, JM has already cautioned me about this problem of insufficient Death Certificate data! :(
On Trove, there is a Funeral Notice on 1 September 1885, in the SMH, indicating 'The friends of Messrs Thomas and Edward and John Nestor are respectfully invited to attend the Funeral of their beloved father, the late Mr Thomas Nestor...etc' The deceased wife's name isn't mentioned but I assumed the younger Thomas mentioned there might be a good 'starter' for Julia's spouse (because the father was 'Thomas'). I recall seeing (I think on Ancestry) that John and Edward were also in trouble with the Law (did it run in the family!).... :-\
However, whether it was the first one who died young in 1888 or the second one, the petty criminal who temporarily 'disappeared' after 1893, it makes sense that, for whatever reason, Julia headed off to Broken Hill to have her first child, James in 1888.
I can see that you prefer the first Thomas as her spouse (who died 1888)....I agree he may be a more plausible candidate than Thomas Hynes nee Nestor ...in fact, they both could well have been petty criminals (the criminal 'career' of the first Thomas ending in 1887 because he died soon after). :)
The only issue that still bothers me is the point that Debra (Dundee) made on this thread back in May and that is that there might have been only one Thomas Nestor who was a petty criminal and her suggestion was that the reason the charges stopped unexpectedly in 1888 was because, from that from that time on, he had assumed the alias 'Hynes'. What do you think?
Paul
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Paul,
The only suggestion I can make there is that usually when someone had a known alias the previous charges and gaol time served is added to the alias's "rap sheet". Since there is only one charge on Thomas HYNES' alias Thomas NESTOR's page I doubt that he is the same person who racked up quite a few petty charges - the other Thomas NESTOR.
Lorraine
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Hi Lorraine,
Yes, you make a good case for Julia's husband being the Thomas Nestor who died of TB in 1888 and was also the petty criminal about whom there is much said on Trove....did you see the short article in Evening News, Monday 21 April, 1884, page 5 entitled 'A Juvenile Nestor'? (It makes slightly amusing reading...eg: 'he never works, and is daily and nightly companion of thieves and women of abandoned habits..." :D)
One would have to conclude that Edward and John were his brothers, as per the Funeral Notice for the father, 1885 and, as such, also, each had a petty criminal existence!
Paul.
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The Thomas NESTOR, aka HYNES was still alive and in Bathurst Gaol in 1893 when his photo was taken as per the link at NSW Archives :D
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/index_image/1998_a006_a00603_1307000105r
Born in Sydney, NSW circa 1867.
Sometimes those Crim sheets don't include all or any of the details of the previous convictions.
JM
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Mmmmm....thank you JM ;) - that it a great 1893 Bathurst Gaol mug shot of Thomas Hynes (nee Nestor) and, as per you comment, I see that it doesn't necessarily exclude him from being responsible for the petty criminal reports throughout the 1880's, for which the sentences were all served in Darlinghurst. (There was a Police Gazette Report, January, 1881 - Trove - describing Thomas Nestor as '...about 18 years old, 5 feet, 5 inches tall, slight build, freckled face...' which sounds a bit like the description in Bathurst, 1893).
As far as I can see, a Thomas Nestor was fined 3 pounds at Newtown Court for breaking some glassware in a Rockdale Pub (or 4 months, in default) and this was reported in the Evening News, November 13 1888 (Trove).
Thomas Nestor died of TB in Sydney Hospital, December 23, 1888 with duration of last illness being '1 month and 24 days'.
As Lorraine has pointed out, the births of Julia's (Julietta's) offspring were both registered in Broken Hill, NSW: James E Nestor in 1888 (Father: Thomas Nestor, Mother: Julietta), Registration number 37269; and John A Nestor in 1894 (Father: Nestor, Mother: Julietta), Registration number 7851. (I got the registration numbers off Ancestry).
The 1885 Sydney Funeral Notice referred to above connects Thomas with two brothers, Edward and John, but still doesn't distinguish which Thomas is which :-\
I think I'm going to have to pull my thinking cap down a bit harder!
Gold Prospector
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Paul,
Going through the research about Thomas NESTOR and his family it is clear to me that Thomas (born 5 December 1863 and registered in 1864) is the son of Thomas NESTOR and Catherine KELLEHER.
He had three brothers - John born 1862 died 1867; Edward born 1865 died 1930; John Patrick born 1868 died 1926; there was a sister, Catherine who was born and died in 1873.
Thomas senior had an earlier marriage to Mary DALEY who died in 1859 - from which there were two daughters, Bridget born 1852 died 1931 and Mary born 1858 (no marriage or death yet).
I believe his second wife Catherine died in 1876. I can find no further marriage.
The daughter, Bridget married Edward LAWLER (mentioned in the funeral notice for Thomas senior)
The family lived in Elizabeth Street; Castlereagh Street and Crown Street Sydney and the marriages and baptisms are held in the St Mary's Cathedral Archives accessed on Film at Society of Australian Genealogists.
We could suppose that the boys, left without a mother young were a little wild. There are gaol entry records for Edward and John Patrick as well as Thomas - again petty crime - only John appears to have a gaol photograph.
Edward and John both married eventually - Edward 1910 and John 1921.
Lorraine
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A couple of observations where Thomas NESTOR is concerned.
Looking at each and every one of the entries in the Gaol Description and Entrance Books on Ancestry for Thomas NESTOR between 1881 and 1887 revealed some notations. As mentioned by Paul the 1881 Police Gazette gave a description of Thomas as 18 years old and 5ft 5 in, slight and freckled. Calculated year of birth 1863.
As mentioned previously he was mostly sentenced to Darlinghurst. In March 1887 he is sentenced to 2 months - and is transferred to Parramatta Gaol in April and there is a description that reads he is 5ft 8in; slight build; sallow complexion; Black hair; brown eyes; R&W. If this is the same Thomas he would have been 24 by this time and appears to have grown a few inches (not surprising). His possible brother John is described on his Gaol photo in 1887 as being born 1867 (20 yrs) 5ft 8 1/2 in; brown hair; blue eyes. John's was a heftier sentence of 5 years for break, enter and steal.
The Description on Thomas HYNES alias NESTOR in 1893 born 1867 has him at 5ft 5in; light brown hair, blue eyes plus tattoos.
Lorraine
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Further observations after trawling through the newspapers and the reporting of the offences of Thomas NESTOR during the decade 1880-1889. The marriage of Thomas NESTOR and Julia ANSELINE took place in 1883, as we know.
My query comes from the fact that at no stage is the offender, Thomas, referred to as married. In fact in 1884 he is described as "A young man...sleeping in a stable...known to police for the past three years...of abandoned character, annoying respectable people...companion of thieves & women of abandoned habits..."
Is it possible that NESTOR who married ANSELINE is not the same Thomas charged repeatedly?
There are references: (1884) Thomas NESTER (21) baker & (1886) Thomas NESTOR (22) baker - as an aside Edward and John NESTOR were both described as bakers in various newspaper notices relating to their offences. (I saw at least one notice that had Thomas' surname written NESTOR and NESTER in the same paragraph)
While Thomas is shown as a plasterer on the marriage to Julia, he is shown as a baker on the birth of James Ernest in 1884 - more questions!!
Lorraine
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:)
;) ;) ;) https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/gaol-inmates-prisoners-photos-index
NSW archives blurb about their Gaol Book Index makes no mention of recording any marital status for any prisoner:
The Gaol Photographic Description Books contain a photograph of each prisoner and the following information: number, prisoners' name, aliases, date when portrait was taken, native place, year of birth, details of arrival in the colony - ship and year of arrival, trade or occupation, religion, standard of education, height, weight (on committal, on discharge), colour of hair, colour of eyes, marks or special features, number of previous portrait, where and when tried, offence, sentence, remarks, and details of previous convictions (where and when, offence and sentence).
HYNES may have spelling variations too, so not just variations on NESTOR or on ANSELINE but also on HYNES ::)
Perhaps also check out the Crim sheets for John NESTOR ... and any known associates named there ... It was quite easy to become known by any name in that era, in fact in NSW up until the mid 1990s ... and it is still not illegal to be known by any name, so long as you are not deceiving or attempting to avoid detection or trying to defraud ....
JM
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https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/index_image/2138_a006_a00603_6074000110r
and
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/index_image/2138_a006_a00603_6064000121r
and
try this index and just enter Mauritius for birthplace ... leave all other boxes empty... so there's another lad arriving with ANSELINE as possible surname (index as Anselme) ... this time this lad arrived in 1899 ...
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/search_form?id=84
JM
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Hi JM,
Thank you for the link to George Anseline, showing his criminal history and photo which was interesting. :)
I actually found him on Trove, with newspaper reports in Evening News (Sydney) and also in Star (Sydney), 2 April, 1909, describing the alleged bigamy referred to.
In the Star, it states: 'George Anseline, or Francose, 27, a colored person from Mauritius, described as a greengrocer, charged..etc'
In the Evening News: 'An alleged bigamy case, in which accused and his father-in-law and other witnesses were natives of Mauritius...etc'
I have wondered where he fits in.
However, in 'Slave Registers of former British Colonial Dependencies, 1813-1834' (Ancestry), there are Anseline families who appear to have had slaves - one of the slave owners was a 'Francois Anseline' who died, however, around 1830. Subsequently, I believe slavery there was forbidden after the mid-1830's.
I would assume that it was not uncommon for slaves to take the name of their owner.
Although I don't have any photos of Jules Francois Anseline, photos of his offspring do not indicate the same features as in the photo of George.
So, quite possibly, George may have been an unrelated descendent.
Incidentally, I have looked on the National Archives of Mauritius website which, I think, you sent me, but it seems to be fairly 'embryonic' - they say that they're still uploading their records. :(
Gold Prospector