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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: Jayson on Thursday 17 May 18 20:27 BST (UK)
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Hello
I’ve just started reading a very interesting book by John Ashdown Hill called ‘The Private Life of Edward IV’.
On page nine of this book there is a family tree highlighting all the English Kings from Henry II to Edward IV who have had bastard children. The entry for King John, however, states that he had no known bastard children. This confussed me because I remembered reading somewhere that he did, and that Richard Fitzroy was one.
Just wondering if anyone would know more.
Jay
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According to Alison Weir in her book "Britain's Royal Families - The Complete Genealogy", King John had 12 illegitimate children including Richard FitzJohn of Dover, Baron of Chilham, Kent.
Ray
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"Although the names of no fewer than six of King John's illegitimate sons are known........"
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m32/
Stan
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Possibly King John's most famous illegitimate child was his daughter Joan who was married to Llywelyn Fawr (or Llywelyn the Great), Prince of Gwynedd in around 1204.
Sources say that John had 8 illegitimate sons and 4 illegitimate daughters. Joan and Richard are perhaps the most well known.
Nell
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John married twice,first to Hedwiga of Gloucester .No children.
Second wife was Isabelle of Angouleme, they had Henry(Third)
Richard
Joan
Isabel
Eleanor
John was nicknamed "lackland"presumably because there was nothing left for him to inherit.He was the fourth son,Henry,Richard (Coeur de Lion)and
Geoffrey then John.
In the little town of Crecy,there is a monument in the middle of the main street,erected by their mother Eleanor of Aquitaine,she had another title.
Eleanor of Aquitaine and Ponthieu. Crecy s in Pointhieu .
The little monument says it was erected by Eleanor of Aquitaine and Ponthieu in memory of her four sons,John is described as "Sans terre".
He seemingly was as he is portrayed in Robin hood stories---- a very nasty individual.
The monument is in a poor way,well it must have been erected before Eleanor died in 1202.Very poignant.
Viktoria.
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Thank you to everyone for your replies...so very helpful. I knew someone on here would know.
Jay😁
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I feel I have to jump to John's defence. He was certainly no great king, but he was nowhere near as bad as he has been portrayed. No - the villain of the era was actually his older brother Richard - yes, the Lionheart. In an effort by the Victorians to provide figureheads for the Empire, Richard became transformed into a just and kindly king, dealing fairly with all his subjects and almost carrying a permanent halo. In fact, he was one of the worst kings England ever had. He could speak little or no English and spent less than six months of his 10-year reign actually in England. Even so, he managed to almost bankrupt the country three times over to finance his failed crusades in the Holy Lands and to pay the ransoms on the several occasions when he got himself captured.
Remember when Richard Greene was Robin Hood? And how often King Richard visited the Greenwood to talk to Robin, and everyone went down on one knee with bowed heads? Actually, they would more likely have spat at him, as it was Richard's fault that a large set of despots had been left to 'run' the country.
John had many faults, but not, I'd suggest, as many as his older brother. And at least he gave us (under protest) Magna Carta.
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Richard was married to Berengaria of Navarre,but she did not live in England,there were no children.
Richard`s behaviour after the siege of Acre was certainly bloodthirsty.
Saladin proposed a reasonable settlement but Richard refused and continued the conflict.
The fact that Richard was not the good king we were made to think he was does not really make John any better.Perhaps not exactly the wicked crony of The Sheriff of Nottingham as portrayed in Robin Hood stories but not really liked.The Barons must have been very disgruntled by John to force him to sign Magna Charta.He withdrew many rights granted since the days of Alfred.By signing Magna Charta he promised to keep them in future.
viktoria.
P.S.Errol Flynn was also a very dashing Robin Hood. ::)
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"The Lion in Winter" is a cracking film about the family :-)
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"The Lion in Winter" is a cracking film about the family :-)
Have to agree with you wholeheartedly. Great depiction of a totally dysfunctional family, historically relatively accurate, and some great acting.
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I was living abroad when the film was released,I have never seen it but would like to very much especially after reading Eleanor of Aquitaine`s biography.
Am I correct when I say Peter O`Toole played Henry II and Katherine Hepburn Eleanor?
Henry was a short, stocky rather bandy legged man nicknamed Henry Curtmantel.,ie Shortcoat.Not at all like Peter O`Toole( Oh those blue eyes in Laurence of Arabia).
Almost all Eleanor`s dowry was lost by her son John,--vast lands throughout France.
Eventually only Calais was still ours.
She was a very educated woman ,banished for many years by Henry.
A stormy tempestuous marriage by all accounts.
She lived until her 80`s.
Viktoria.
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You are correct. It is one of my all time favourite films :-)
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While reading through this interesting thread, I remember doing this poem at school! The poem (and more)come up on the link below.
http://thereview2014.blogspot.com/2015/06/magna-carta-week-magna-carta-childhood.html
'King John'
John was a tyrant, John was a tartar
John put his name to the Great Big Charter.
Every baron from Thames to Tweed
Followed the road to Runnymede.
Every baron had something to say
To poor perplexed King John that day.
"Pray sign your name," said Guy de Gaunt,
"It's easily done and it's all we want."
"A J and an O and an N" said Hugo, Baron of Harpenden.
Quietly spoke the Lord Ranbure,
"Oblige Lord King with your signature."
"Your name my liege, be writ just here,
A mere formality," laughed de Bere.
"A stroke of the pen and the thing is done,"
Murmured Sir Roger of Trumpington.
"Done in a twinkling," sniffed de Guise.
Said Stephen Langton, "Sign if you please!"
So many people egging him on
I can't help feeling sorry for John.
(There is an alternative ending...)
Too many people he did wrong
We have no cause to pity John.
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You are correct. It is one of my all time favourite films :-)
The film was extraordinary both for its screenplay and its acting performances. However, I am intrigued by the fact that Robert Preston, who brilliantly starred in the film "The Music Man", was the original Henry II when "The Lion in Winter" was produced on Broadway!
http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article/21407%7C0/The-Lion-in-Winter.html
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Henry was a short, stocky rather bandy legged man nicknamed Henry Curtmantel.,ie Shortcoat.
Viktoria.
I think all that family were somewhat short and bandy.
The Conqueror's oldest son Robert (died 1135) was known as Curthose; i.e. Short trousers/stockings.
Astonishingly, (to me,) I know someone whose maiden name was Curthose - I gasped when she told me that, and after I explained my interest she shrugged in a way that showed marked disinterest.
I still can't believe she really didn't give a damn. :o
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I’ve just started reading a very interesting book by John Ashdown Hill called ‘The Private Life of Edward IV’.
John Ashdown Hill died a month ago.
https://www.johnashdownhill.com/johns-blog/
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Great poem Jaybelnz. I remember reading a Jean Plaidy book about King John years ago. Not a nice man.