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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Jackarmy1 on Thursday 17 May 18 23:35 BST (UK)

Title: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Thursday 17 May 18 23:35 BST (UK)
Hi, I'm looking for some information and direction of where to go with trying to locate my maternal Grandfather. He and my Grandmother divorced in 1954 and that was the last information I've been able to find. My Grandmother passed away in 1990 and my mother was only 9 or 10 yrs old when they split up, so doesn't remember a lot. My mother is fairly adamant he was in the RAF and was based in Swansea during the WW2, manning the anti aircraft guns overlooking BP oil refinery. I have 2 photographs of his wedding to my Grandmother and the uniform he is wearing certainly lends itself to him being in the RAF. I cannot find him however on any of the military searches. He has 3 forenames and a not common surname so I find this fairly surprising. I am in the process of applying for his records from the MOD. Anyone have any advice or tips, would RAF personnel be based defending an Oil refinery? for example. Many thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: philipsearching on Thursday 17 May 18 23:53 BST (UK)
Greetings, and a warm welcome to Rootschat.

As your grandfather served in WW2 he would be approaching 100yrs old if still alive, so (although Rootschat has a policy of not naming living persons) it should be safe to let us know his full name.

Also, if you let us know your late grandmother's name, it could help track down a marriage and we can work with that.  Your grandmother's maiden surname should be on a birth certificate of a child.

Also, if you can scan and post a photo of your grandfather in uniform (with the best view of any buttons or badges) we should be able to confirm if he was RAF or an army regiment.

Rootschatters can point you in the direction of free websites to search and many have specialist knowledge, so you have come to the right place!

All the best
Philip

(ADDED _ I am not sure if you would need proof of death to apply to the MOD as next of kin.  If so, it would be useful if we can help find that out.)
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: CaroleW on Friday 18 May 18 00:24 BST (UK)
Welcome from me too

If your main aim is to locate his whereabouts after 1954 it's unlikely his WW2 records will help you unless he was receiving a service pension.

He may have re-married in which case we could try and locate a marriage for him once we know his name etc   You could try www.freebmd.org.uk

It's probable he is now deceased in which case we may be able to find his death registration/will for you  (I visited an ex-neighbour today who served in WW2 and who will be 99 in October so you never know!!)

See this link re: applying for service records

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651361.0
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: macwil on Friday 18 May 18 00:35 BST (UK)
Yes a death cert. will be required, even a widow/er has to supply one if s/he requests their spouses records and they had died after discharge from the service, there is no charge to them however. Anyone else has to pay £30. The only person who does not need to supply a cert. is the subject themselves and if they are alive no one else can obtain the records.
A service number is not neccessarily required but a DATE OF BIRTH is.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Friday 18 May 18 01:23 BST (UK)
Many thanks for the quick replies, the military services records I'm looking for are purely for interest and have no bearing on his whereabouts and subsequent life. It is fairly likely that he had another family after the divorce, so it is of great family interest to myself. His name is John James William Thorne, DOB March 1921 West Ham, my grandmothers name was Valerie June Thorne nee Wilding. DOB, 3/6/1924. I'll attach a picture as well.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Friday 18 May 18 01:35 BST (UK)
John James William Thorne
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: CaroleW on Friday 18 May 18 01:45 BST (UK)
Hi

His birth was registered in the March qtr 1921 but was he actually born in March 1921 as per your opening post?

The March qtr covered births registered 1st Jan - 31st March but births in December of 1920 may have been registered after Christmas so would show as 1921

Deaths from 1969 show full birthdate so it would be useful to have his actual DOB if known as there is no obvious death so far
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Friday 18 May 18 02:23 BST (UK)
Hi,

Many thanks for your unbelievably quick response. Unfortunately no-one in the family knows his actual DOB.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Friday 18 May 18 02:25 BST (UK)
One other thing, on my mothers birth certificate his name is shown as J J Thorne, he seems to have dropped the William. Not sure how significant that could be.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Friday 18 May 18 03:10 BST (UK)
Many apologies, but I've just read my posts back and my Grandmothers maiden name was Richards not Wilding. Wilding was my Great Grandmothers maiden name. My brain is going into overload at the moment. Many thanks once again.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: avm228 on Friday 18 May 18 04:42 BST (UK)
So the basics for John J W Thorne are:

Birth registered Mar qtr 1921 West Ham, with mother’s maiden name Day

Married Dec qtr 1943 Neath to Valerie J Richards

Followed by 2? children in Neath, 1944 and 1946?  (Not naming as may still be living).
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: avm228 on Friday 18 May 18 05:04 BST (UK)
There is a possible second marriage for him in his birth county of Essex in 1955 (see FreeBMD).

If that is him then it looks likely from electoral rolls that he was still living in Dagenham until fairly recently (abt 2013) and his second wife may still be living.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: avm228 on Friday 18 May 18 05:13 BST (UK)
Actually probate records reveal a possible death for his second wife in 2016.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Friday 18 May 18 05:17 BST (UK)
Hi there, yes the 2 children in 1944 & 46 are my Uncle , deceased 2014, and my mother who is still alive. I've picked up on the second marriage overnight thanks to the excellent FreeBMD as recommended on here earlier. I'm not able to locate a notice of death, I think I found his second wife who deceased 2016, again in Dagenham. Is it possible he is still with us as I'm unable to find a record of his death. He'd be 97.  I've also found out it looks like he had 2 children through his 2nd marriage, born in 1955 and 56, these would be half siblings to my mother, so of obvious interest.

Many many thanks for all your efforts so far.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: avm228 on Friday 18 May 18 05:22 BST (UK)
I think it unlikely he is still with us as he stops being listed on the electoral roll in 2013 and his wife is still on it at their long-term address after that.

Possible I suppose that he moved out (e.g. into a care home) but it looks more likely that he died.  I see that probate over his (presumed) wife’s estate was granted in Cardiff; not sure of the significance of that.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Friday 18 May 18 05:36 BST (UK)
What would be my best avenue for obtaining his DOB and death ?,

Probate granted in Cardiff seems a little odd.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: avm228 on Friday 18 May 18 05:45 BST (UK)
For deaths as recent as this you have to consult (or ask someone else to consult) the full indexes which are available to view at a (very) few large libraries.

Are you in the UK?

Once you find the death, that certificate should provide the birthdate.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Friday 18 May 18 05:45 BST (UK)
Yes, in Swansea.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: avm228 on Friday 18 May 18 05:47 BST (UK)
OK then - I believe the only full index available for consultation in Wales is at Bridgend Reference & Information Library, but do check in case that information is out of date.

Edit: a more recent name may be Bridgend (or Ty’r Ardd) Local & Family History Centre ???
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 18 May 18 05:47 BST (UK)
Quote from: Jackarmy1 on Friday 18 May 18 05:36 BST (UK)
What would be my best avenue for obtaining his DOB and death ?,

1939 Register for DoB then using his age to find his death?

Annie
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: avm228 on Friday 18 May 18 05:48 BST (UK)
Quote from: Rosinish on Friday 18 May 18 05:47 BST (UK)
Quote from: Jackarmy1 on Friday 18 May 18 05:36 BST (UK)
What would be my best avenue for obtaining his DOB and death ?,

1939 Register for DoB then using his age to find his death?

Annie

You won’t find his entry on the 1939 Register if (as it appears) he has been alive until recently - it will have been redacted.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Friday 18 May 18 05:52 BST (UK)
Many thanks to all, it has been a very enlightening night so far.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 18 May 18 05:55 BST (UK)
Quote from: avm228 on Friday 18 May 18 05:48 BST (UK)
You won’t find his entry on the 1939 Register if (as it appears) he has been alive until recently - it will have been redacted.

Yes avm, you're right but from the marriage date & anyone who's not redacted it may be easy to work out a rough date?

Annie
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Friday 18 May 18 05:58 BST (UK)
Quote from: Rosinish on Friday 18 May 18 05:55 BST (UK)
Quote from: avm228 on Friday 18 May 18 05:48 BST (UK)
You won’t find his entry on the 1939 Register if (as it appears) he has been alive until recently - it will have been redacted.

Yes avm, you're right but from the marriage date & anyone who's not redacted it may be easy to work out a rough date?

Annie

Hmm confused now !!!
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: avm228 on Friday 18 May 18 05:58 BST (UK)
Quote from: Rosinish on Friday 18 May 18 05:55 BST (UK)
Quote from: avm228 on Friday 18 May 18 05:48 BST (UK)
You won’t find his entry on the 1939 Register if (as it appears) he has been alive until recently - it will have been redacted.

Yes avm, you're right but from the marriage date & anyone who's not redacted it may be easy to work out a rough date?


We know his birth was registered in 1921 and he married for the first time in 1943.

I have found his birth family and he isn’t with them in 1939 (assuming the children are in date order, which they seem to be) - the only redacted one is a younger sister.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Daisypetal on Friday 18 May 18 19:03 BST (UK)
Hi,

Are you sure that the John J W THORNE born in 1921 in West Ham is the right one? I ask because I found this marriage which would also fit that gentleman,

John J W THORNE    Sep Q 1944    Brentford    3a  747 
Annie G COUSINS

I can't see any obvious children for this couple, but of course she could have been divorced and their children would be under her maiden name.


Do you have John and Valerie's marriage cert. to see what his occupation was, his father's name and possibly his age?

Sorry for asking so many questions but I think it's better to be sure rather than follow the wrong family.

Regards,
Daisy

Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: avm228 on Friday 18 May 18 19:17 BST (UK)
Quote from: Daisypetal on Friday 18 May 18 19:03 BST (UK)
Hi,

Are you sure that the John J W THORNE born in 1921 in West Ham is the right one? I ask because I found this marriage which would also fit that gentleman,

John J W THORNE    Sep Q 1944    Brentford    3a  747 
Annie G COUSINS

I can't see any obvious children for this couple, but of course she could have been divorced and their children would be under her maiden name.


Do you have John and Valerie's marriage cert. to see what his occupation was, his father's name and possibly his age?

Sorry for asking so many questions but I think it's better to be sure rather than follow the wrong family.

Regards,
Daisy

This Brentford one was (or claimed to have been) born 5 Jan 1874, and was already with the widowed Annie “Couzens” in 1939, five years or so before their marriage.

His likely death: Mar qtr 1955 Ealing, aged 81.

The associated probate record shows his full name as John Jacob William Thorne.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Daisypetal on Friday 18 May 18 19:31 BST (UK)

What a good find,

Thank you :)

Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Friday 18 May 18 22:07 BST (UK)
Thank you all, my next task is to acquire John James William Thorne's birth certificate and his wedding certificate for his wedding to my Grandmother in 1943. Will any of these ancestry sites give me actual dates or will it be Jan - March qtr etc.
I'd like the birth certificate to confirm his actual DoB and the wedding certificate to find out his service number as I'm led to believe it will probably be on it.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: avm228 on Friday 18 May 18 22:15 BST (UK)
No site will give you the precise dates; they will (all) only give you the reference details, including the quarter-year in which registration took place.  You need to use those index reference details to order the certificates.

Order from the GRO Online rather than through any of the commercial sites, which would add a hefty middleman premium to the £9.25 cost of each certificate.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Finley 1 on Friday 18 May 18 22:16 BST (UK)
I love when Roots get to grips with things like this x


xin
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Friday 18 May 18 22:34 BST (UK)
What a pleasant experience this has been,so many people trying to help. Thank you all again.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 19 May 18 00:08 BST (UK)
I would suggest you only get his marriage cert at first to establish his age and fathers name/occupation.

Post those details on here when you get them before sending for any birth cert just as a precaution
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Saturday 19 May 18 00:31 BST (UK)
His Father was also called John Thorne and he was born in 1894 i believe, but I don't know his occupation as yet.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 19 May 18 01:31 BST (UK)
Going back to his parents.  Freebmd has a 1919 marriage in Essex between John D C Thorne and Emily Day
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 19 May 18 01:40 BST (UK)
Same initials but different arrangement.  A Daniel John C Thorne was born 1898 in Essex
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 19 May 18 01:43 BST (UK)
John Daniel C Thorne born 28.2.1898 died Oct 1991 Waltham Forest
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 19 May 18 01:49 BST (UK)
The C was for Christopher and he died 24.10.1991 address 69 Leyton Park Rd London E10
www.probatesearch.gov.uk
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Saturday 19 May 18 02:46 BST (UK)
Quote from: CaroleW on Saturday 19 May 18 01:31 BST (UK)
Going back to his parents.  Freebmd has a 1919 marriage in Essex between John D C Thorne and Emily Day

Yes,  looks like they had 6 Children, in 1919, 21, 23, 25, 29 & 32. It gets more and more interesting.

I've ordered his birth and marriage certs to be going on with.

Thanks for your digging  :)
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Mart 'n' Al on Saturday 19 May 18 09:02 BST (UK)
Going back to the photo, the gloves tucked into the belt made me look twice! Have a look.

Martin
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Finley 1 on Saturday 19 May 18 10:14 BST (UK)
Spec savers MartnAl
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

its a ladies arm slipped through his :) and all we can see is the wonderful 'mannequin' type hand..

xin

bet you knew that and you are kidding us :)
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Saturday 19 May 18 15:50 BST (UK)
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: iolaus on Saturday 19 May 18 16:23 BST (UK)
Quote from: CaroleW on Saturday 19 May 18 01:43 BST (UK)
John Daniel C Thorne born 28.2.1898 died Oct 1991 Waltham Forest

On the 1939 registry his date of birth is 28/2/1897

The children born in 1919, 1923, 1925 and 1932 are on there - so must have died (the one that would fit with the 1929 birth is redacted so may still be alive)
Your John isn't there - but potentially he'd already joined up if he was 18
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: philipsearching on Sunday 20 May 18 15:46 BST (UK)
Blimey!  I don't log in to Rootschat for a couple of days, then come back to find 5 pages of posts giving so much information.

Jackarmy1 - I originally wrote: "Rootschatters can point you in the direction of free websites to search and many have specialist knowledge, so you have come to the right place."  Toldyaso!

HEALTH WARNING - genealogy can be seriously addictive - enjoy it.

Philip
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Sunday 20 May 18 21:19 BST (UK)
Indeed the information that has been forthcoming has been incredible  and people so helpful. Very addictive!  I've not even started on the Jinks from Staffordshire nor the Wildings from Hereford., which are my other grandparents family lines.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: iolaus on Sunday 20 May 18 22:44 BST (UK)
Do you know for definate that he stayed in the UK after his divorce

There;s a Australian death record for a John James Thorne in 1980 which gives his father's name as John

I don't have world wide access so no way of seeing his year of birth - but may be an angle to consider if can't fine a death
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Sunday 20 May 18 22:56 BST (UK)
I dont know for definite because my mother lost touch after the divorce in 54 , so its a possibility  His second wife passed away in 2016 which I found from the probate records. There are 2 John Thornes showing on the 2013 probate search , 1 being John William Thorne, though 1 is in Manchester the other Ipswich, not sure how relevant the  probate office locations are. I was told he was showing on the electoral register up until 2013.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Deirdre784 on Sunday 20 May 18 23:00 BST (UK)
Quote from: iolaus on Sunday 20 May 18 22:44 BST (UK)
Do you know for definate that he stayed in the UK after his divorce

There;s a Australian death record for a John James Thorne in 1980 which gives his father's name as John

I don't have world wide access so no way of seeing his year of birth - but may be an angle to consider if can't fine a death

Father John, mother Jessie nee Mitchell. Born around 1913. Death in Kerang, Victoria.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Sunday 20 May 18 23:21 BST (UK)
That's eliminated then , thank u for info
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Tuesday 29 May 18 11:52 BST (UK)
Thanks for all the advice previously, I've received his birth certificate and he as born outside the Jan - Mar 21 quarter as someone on here suggested. His DoB was 19/12/1920. Obviously delayed registering due to Xmas etc. His father's profession is listed as Policeman R.J.C pre - army. Anyone know what R.J.C means please. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Deirdre784 on Tuesday 29 May 18 13:16 BST (UK)
You had 6 weeks to register the birth, whatever the season. Lots of December births aren’t registered until January.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Sinann on Tuesday 29 May 18 13:50 BST (UK)
Any chance his father was Irish and it's RIC, Royal Irish Constabulary.
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Tuesday 29 May 18 13:56 BST (UK)
That's what I keep coming up with when googling RJC, not really sure about the Irish connection , would be a new direction , so its worth looking into. Thanks for reply
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Thursday 31 May 18 23:05 BST (UK)
Yep, a short period in the RIC from what i can tell. I have his WW1 service numbers, 1 for the ASC and another for the Kings Royal Rifle Corps. Am i able to get records which show the dates of his service and also which battalion he was in, which will point me in the direction of where he was on the Western Front. As always many thanks for any replies - Richard
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Friday 22 June 18 14:08 BST (UK)
Finally received the wedding cert but the service numberI is missing ,  I cannot make out what it says under rank or proffesion. I can see air force but the 2 lines above are totally illegible to me , any suggestions?
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Bookbox on Friday 22 June 18 15:38 BST (UK)
Plumber(?) Now
in H. M.
Air Force

(not at all sure about Plumber ... )
Title: Re: Advice required
Post by: Jackarmy1 on Friday 22 June 18 23:16 BST (UK)
Thanks, I thought that as well, it just happens a little research and the term for an armourer during WW2 was a plumber apparently. Just have to wait for his service history to come through to confirm. Thanks again.........