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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: richarde1979 on Friday 25 May 18 12:32 BST (UK)
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I recently purchased a photo album for £20, which included a dozen or so photographs taken with a Kodak Brownie camera of Smiths, Boswells, Coopers, Powells and Hearns camped on Epsom Downs and in East Peckham, Surrey, taken sometime between 1899-1912.
These include four of a middle aged man called Mark Hearne, outside his tents with his family, camped on the downs with his donkey, and out working the streets with his grinding barrow, and two photographs of four children aged roughly 3-14, described by the photographer, as the 'Chavos of Render Smith'.
I am trying to track down some more details on these people. Fred Shaw of the Gypsy Lore Society took two photos at Saffron Green Lane, Arkley Hertfordshire on 10th April 1910, showing a Render Smith, wife Jemima (Miami) with two children Walter and Lydia [Liddy]. Presumably this is the same family. Charles Leland earlier refers to Render Smith in his 1882 book The Gypsies. I can't find any baptism for him though or any trace of this family in census records. There is a Surrender Smith, born circa 1834 on the 1861 census, who is apparently the same person who appears as Surrender Boswell, aged 8, on the 1841 census in Staffordshire, a son of Moses Boswell, and grandson of Viney Boswell. Obviously he is highly unlikey to be the same man with young children photographed in Surrey and Herts in 1910.
Mark Hearne may be the same man who appears on the 1881 census in Fulham, just a few miles away from where my photographer later took her pictures of him in East Peckham. He was then aged 30, his birthplace given as Watford, Hertfordshire, with a daughter Leander. Leander married her cousin John Hearne, son of Samson Hearn, at St James, Fulham, on Xmas Day 1895. Any more info on his family, or census sightings, would be appreciated.
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Update I have these two families on the 1911 census:
Aldenham, Radlett, Hertfordshire, England
Render Smith Head, Licensed Pedlar M 69 Ipston, Oxfordshire
Mary Ann Smith Wife Licensed Pedlar F 57 West Bedfont Nr Staines, Middlesex
Panon Smith Son Licensed Pedlar M 28 Hendon, Middlesex
Walton Smith Son Licensed Pedlar M 23 Walton On Thames, Surrey
Lydia Smith Daughter Licensed Pedlar F 17 Walton On Thames, Surrey
Wealdstone, , Middlesex, England
Mark Hearne Head, Pedlar, M 60 Stanmore Midd
Sinneamenty Hearne Wife F 58 Northamptonshire
Samuel Smith Brother, Hawker, M 40 Warwickshire
Meshack Hearne Son, Hawker, M 28 Walham Green, London
William Pullen Son-in-law M 30 Battersea, London
Phoebe Pullen Daughter F 30 Walham Green, London
Mark Pullen Grandson M 12 Walham Green, London
Sinneamenty Pullen Granddaughter F 9 Mortlake, Surrey
William Pullen Grandson M 7 Wealdstone Midd
James Pullen Grandson M 5 Wealdstone Midd
Nathaniel Pullen Grandson M 1 Wealdstone Midd
James Simms Boarder M 28 Hendon Midd
I think that probably is the Mark in my photos. Info online suggests he was born John Mark Hearne, in Hawridge, Bucks, married Sinamenty Smith in 1874, and had at least six children with her.
Render I am still not so sure on. The number and ages of the children in the photos doesn't match up so well with the census info.
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Is this the same SMITH family in 1901?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X96Y-CZL
Maureen
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Render Smith - 1844 passed away March 1922 - Barnet Middlesex - 3a 528
Sandra
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RG12 Piece 1050 Folio 10 Page 15
1891 Hendon, Middlesex,
Henry Smith 47 born Acton, London.
Mary Ann Smith 34 born Walton, Surrey.
Robert Smith 14 born Hendon.
Parrion Smith 9 born Teddington, Middlesex.
Agnes Smith 5 born Hendon.
Walter Smith 3 born Hendon.
Sandra
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Parron Smith born 1882 - passed away March 1929 Barnet Middlesex. 3a 834
Sandra
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Thank you Sandra that is very helpful. It does look like the same couple and could help date the photos as the first photo shows a boy of about 14 with another teenage girl, and two young girls, that could well be Walter Smith, 14, Lydia Smith,7 and Elizabeth Smith, 4, though the teenage girl is a mystery. The second photo shows the two teenage children with the youngest girl sitting on a basket outside their bender tent.
The actual photo album is undated, but I was able to work out it was manufactured between 1899-1917. The clothing looks typically Edwardian to me, so I had ruled out the later end of that range.
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1881 census is interesting - In A Tent Chertsey Lane Littleton Middlesex - no details for anyone - all unknown.
RG11 Piece 1326 Folio 59 Page 7
Henry Smith 40 No place of birth. No Occupation.
Margaret Smith 38
Henry Smith 18
Richard Smith 6
Robert Smith 4
Charles Pearce 16
Sandra
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Interesting Sandra, assuming Henry and Render are the same man the two birth places he does give Ipston, Oxfordshire and Acton, conflict, so maybe he genuinely didn't know for sure where he was born. It would be great to find a baptism for him, but maybe needle in a haystack time. I'm wondering if Mark Hearne's wife Sinamenty Smith is Render's sister. Might explain why they were camped together when my photographer got her pictures, though that might be an assumption on my part there are no pictures with them actually together, and they may have been taken at different times.
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I have found him on the 1871 census as Surrender Smith, 26, single, traveller, birthplace unknown, lodging in the household of a Thomas Whatford at East Molesey, Surrey, England. A couple of prison register results are showing for him at Findmypast, one as Surrender Smith, b.1844, in 1861, and one as Surrender/Henry, Smith/Hopwood/Buckland, in 1865, but I am not currently a member there to see the details. No luck finding a baptism for him in Acton or Ipsden, Oxfordshire under Surrender/Render or Henry.
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Managed to find out some details of the prison records from the British Newspaper Archive.
As Surrender Smith, 17, he was arrested with a William Cooper, in October 1861, decsribed as 'two rough looking lads' charged with throwing stones at chest nut trees at Oaklands Park, Surrey, breaking branches, on two consecutive days, for which they were fined six pence damages and fifteen shillings costs.
The second case took place in January 1865, when he was accused with an accomplice, of stealing a large quantity of gold and silver hidden in a rolled up sock, belonging to Rito Smith, another Gypsy, unrelated to him, who lived in a tent across from his own, on a piece of ground, in the York-road, Battersea. In that case it states he had previously been convicted at Surrey Sessions on 21st April 1862, using the name Henry Hopwood, and sentenced to twelve months for horse stealing.
Whether these details can help identify him further I don't know. I see Eric Trudgill has the Hopwood family listed linked to the Bucklands on one of his works on the Buckland family published by the RTFHS. The family arn't listed on his Gypsygenealogy website though.
Looking at the children for Render on the census 1871-1911:
Richard/Robert Smith 1873
Parron Smith 1881 Hendon, Middlesex, or Teddington, Middlesex died 1929 Barnet Middlesex
Agnes smith 1885 Hendon, middlesex
Walter Smith 1886 Walton On Thames, Surrey or hendon
Lydia Smith 1893 Walton On Thames, Surrey
Elizabeth Smith 1897
That does fit with the photos if Agnes is the unindentified teenage girl. If they were taken 1899/1900, the ages of the four children fit very well. Perhaps she sadly died shortly after, before the 1901 census was taken?
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Found out a little more
Rito Smith, the victim of Render Smith's theft, had two daughters, with his partner Trinity:
Cinnamente Smith baptised 1851 atIsham, Northamptonshire
Centina Smith baptised 1854 at Newton Bromswold, Northamptonshire
Both sisters were married at Brentford in June 1874, Centina as Sentina Smith to George Seaby and Cinnamente as Sinamenty Smith to John Mark Hearn.
Obviously the last couple are the same as Mark Hearn and Sinneamenty Hearn in my photographs. It seems a coincidence the photographer would also take a photo of the children of Render Smith, the same man who had thirty five years earlier been in prison for stealing from Cinnamente's father, Rito. I think despite Render's claim that he was camping with, but not related to Rito, at his 1865 trial, he probably was, and was later forgiven after he had served his jail time, and taken back into the family fold. I may order the 1874 wedding certificate for details of Mark's father.
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Hi Richard
In the records of the Smiths that i have came across there is one from 1847, it tells of a young man fighting with a Gipsy, he ends up stabbed and nearly died, the story is in the Leicester Journal Friday November 12, the young man is just named as Warren, there was an argument in a Public House in Sutton Bassett with Gypsies, this fight carried on down the road and Warren ended up stabbed, the man who stabbed him was only known as Smith, he was then on the run, his location unknown, if you then read the London Evening Standard Thursday 18 July 1850 Warren is now known by the name of Samuel Warren Burdett, Smith who as now been captured, goes by the name Rito Smith, the Gipsy, he ends up sentenced to be transported for ten years.
I do not know if this Rito is the same one as the one with Surrender Smith that you talk about. Well done with the Books you have wrote, keep up the good work.
michael
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Hello Michael
Thanks for the input and the kind words for my books, hope you are well. There were a few Rito/Righto/Wrighto Smiths around at that time. The transported Rito was the son of Samuel Smith and Annamonty/Cinamenty baptised at Gloostone, Liecester in October 1825. He stayed out in Australia and died there. There was another elder Rito baptised Norton, Northamptonshire in 1814. He married Comfort Smith at Fenny Compton, Warwickshire, September 1833 and seems to be the same man buried as 'Rito Smith, 28, a Gypsy' at Stockton, Warwickshire, 20 July 1841.
Mark Hearne's wife Cinementa appears to be the daughter of a third even elder Rito, baptised at Wymington, Bedfordshire, England, in 1805, to Samuel and Sophia Smith, married in 1793. They had at least two other children, Elijah Smith, baptised ‘born in the top road’, son of Samuel Smith and Sophia 'Gipsies' at Sapcote, Leicestershire, on 31st May 1798, in a joint ceremony with Arqetta Smith, daughter of Absalom Smith and Elizabeth, and Divers Lazarus Smith, ‘born in Biggin in the town of Newton’, baptised as son of Samuel Smith and Sophia, ‘Egiptians’, on 22nd May 1803, at Clifton upon Dunsmore, Warwickshire.
That Rito Smith baptised a daughter Kezia Smith, in Northampton 1831, with a partner called Ambrate. He much later partnered Trinity smith, and had Cinementa in 1851 and her younger sister Centina in 1854. He was buried at Hendon, Middlesex, in 1868, three years after the theft by Render Smith, an age of 66 given for him on the burial.
Looking at the trial details for Render it seems he didn't actually steal the money, he acted as look out whilst John Lewis, an apprentice of Rito did the actual theft. They both then went off and spent the money on new clothes. This might have helped Render build bridges with Rito's daughters when he was eventually released from prison, maybe he'd been led astray by the other young man.
Not quite sure how these three Rito Smiths were related, though I'm sure they were. I think the elder Rito was perhaps uncle to both the younger two. The forename Righto seems to have first been used in the Buckley/Buckland family in the 1760s, so maybe there is a wider link to them too, especially as Render Smith used their surname as an alias.
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To add to the above, over the weekend I was reading the newly published book by Alan Wright 'Their Day has Passed - Gypsies in Victorian and Edwardian Surrey'. It's a great read with lots of info about individual traveller families in the region, even found a couple of references to my own connected families, my niece's great-grandparents Job/Joseph Parker and Louisa Ayres.
Anyway I was also suprised to see there a photo of Render Smith's son and wife camped at Epsom on Derby Day, 2 June 1910, with Dozer Smith and Jack Symes. This was a couple of months after the photos taken of them in Hertfordshire by Fred Shaw. The boy is definitely the boy in my photos taken about a decade earlier. I havn't identified Dozer Smith or Jack Symes yet, but I am hoping they might give some further clues to Render's parents and wider family.
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Hi Richard
As always very interesting words from you, i always read your posts several times for they have great knowledge in their content, always to, very interesting.
Richard, i have been trying to look for the Pullens you write about, i find in the way i research if you go sideways or completely of course you can find an older link, there is some hawkers on the south of the Country, plus some up the Yorkshire way, i will put a few records up for you, and i found some of your good wife's long Family's the Ayres, i will put them on for you, i know you know lots but i like evan trying to help someone as talented as yourself, well done again with your Boswell Books.
michael
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Thanks Michael, I appreciate your efforts, you never know what these side lines will bring up or where they might lead.
I have been researching the Ayres family now for near on a decade, collecting all I can on them, always happy to find out more. My niece’s late great-grandmother (my brother-in-law's grandmother) was Matilda ‘Tilly’ Ayres born 1916, on a fixed site at Walton on Thames, Surrey, daughter of Joseph ‘Job’ Ayres. She married her cousin who the son of her aunt Mary Ann Olive Ayres, born on 26th July 1883, in a tent on Epsom Common. I’ve traced them back to William Ayres, born circa 1781, a licensed hawker of Ashmansworth and East Woodhay, Hampshire, who was transported to Australia in 1817, for 14 years. He escaped from a Sydney Chain Gang in 1824 was recaptured and transported again on the Sally to the new penal colony of Port Macquarie, two hundred and sixty miles north of Emu Plains, but can’t find any trace of him after that. William’s wife Orlanda/Orlenda, remarried after William was transported, and was buried as Lender Sherlock aged forty-eight, at Fetcham, Surrey on 17th February 1833. I am pretty sure William’s parents were Reuben Ayres and Jane ‘Jenny’ Stanley, but have never been able to conclusively prove it.
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Hi Richard
Another great story from you, very interesting, i have just been looking at the Pullens, there is familys of them, Hawkers, from the South Coast that makes the papers back into the 1800s, there seams to be a ruff and tough lot from the London way around the turn of the 1900s, then some way back to, some start of working on the fairs then go on to be big names in the Showmans Worled, i do not know who anyone is or are they related to the Pullens who are the Same as the Mark Hearn Familys you look for, i have hundreds of records that i write down with information on, i have just put a few of the Hearns on below, and i put the one about Plato Ayres on for i am looking into the name Plato. i saw the records of the Bucklands but also the Smiths are way back with that name, i will try and find more now of Ayres, i have learned so much history of the Gipsies from Scotland to Wales, coast to Coast, the Sharlottes can be spelt Charlottes, they to are Related to my Mother, the Nelsons i think to can be Nielsons, they are mostley from Scotland and related also in the records i find, and Nicholas of the the Slenders, they like that name, the Smalls from the South are interesting to.
everything below just Extracts
Thursday 11 January 1816 Bath Chronicle and Weekley Gazette
Saturday also 3 April Bristol Mirror
George Pullen, up for stealing a chestnut mare.
Tuesday 2 July 1861 South Eastern Gazette Kent Ann Pullen, 41 travelling Hawker charged with stealing Saturday 29 June 1861 in the Dover Telegraph and Cinque-Ports General Advertiser in the same year she is described as a Hawker of Millinery and Haberdashery. Job Pullen, adjudged a rogue and a Vagabond in 1810 on Thursday 11 October in the Cheltenham Chronicle. On Tuesday of July 7 1818 in the Public Ledger and Daily Advertiser London, W. Pullen Hawker was convicted at the Swann Inn Chichester, a missing dog was found in the cart of Pullen, with the most horrible brutality he took the dog from the cart and broke both its forelegs, the correspondent writes “rejoice to hear that the Magistrates are determined to inflict this cruel wretch the severest penalty of the law”. Edward Pullen of Kent Street a Fish Hawker on Wednesday 9 June 1880 charged with cruelty to a horse. In 1909 in several papers there is the story of the Sand Bagging Hawker Spies who are a burglar gang, it is from the London Sessions Courts, William Pullen, Hawker, Albert Legg and Richard Smith, they would go round Hawking flowers and keep an eye out for houses to break into, they would hit people with a bag of sand to stun them instead of say a heavy club that might kill them, that is where the term sand-bagging derives its origin. Friday 20 September 1907 in the Globe London it is wrote of assaults on the Police from a violent gang from Wansworth, they were convicted at the Old Bailey Criminal Court, Timothy Hearn 35 a Hawker, Joseph Pullen 33 and Charles Fuller 38 who was said to be a Carman. Also in the South London Press on the 10 of August and on the 3 to in the Croydon Chronicle and East Surrey Advertiser it is wrote of a Timothy Hearn 33 who also goes by the name of Young. Timothy Hearne is known as a Costermonger in the year 1909 on Saturday 14 August, Uxbridge & W. Drayton Gazette London, there is also quite a few with a John Hearne a Costermonger around the same years. There is the name Pullen in the Papers from the South relating to the many people who have sorts of rides or attractions at Fairs and such, many names are listed, there are names like Herrings and Pullens that caught my eye from the early 1900s, then the Pullen’s seam to expand and up the North you will find many story’s of their times in further years, a very big name was the Pullen’s.
Tuesday 23 August 1949
Great Old Lady of Showland Dies.
Mary Ann Pullen(90). The Feasts and Fairs of the North have lost a great character. Mrs. Pullen was the mother of Mr. William Pullen, the present King of the Showmen, and President of the Showman’s Guild. She had lived in a caravan most of her life; managed the steam swings since the death of her husband and had brought up her family in caravans.
In the Kentish Independent 25 May 1844 Clementine Draper Leandra Hearn Sophia Hearn and Susanna Lee are up in court. Then in the Maidstone Journal and Kentish Advertiser and also the Southern Eastern Gazette on the 9 July1833 Leander Hearn a Gipsy girl is spoken of, also Croydon is talked about. In 1802 in the Bury and Norwich Post, Sophia Hearn and a gang of 10, vagrants, commonly known as Gipsies were commited to Wood-Bridge House of Correction.
There is a Plato Ayres and Raymond Sexton charged with robbery and stabbing in 1866 22 July, Uxbridge & W Drayton Gazette yet on the 28 July in the Windsor and Eton Express they are now known as Raymond Ayres and Plato Sexton, in August they are said to be 18 and 19 years of age in the London Daily News, there is a Plato Sexton charged with turning animals out to graze in 1859 Windsor and Eton Gazette 25 June
Richard i will try and find the Ayres Family next plus the Plato name, i have lots of records of them somewhere, but everything over the last few years research is mixed up, but i will try my best and find evan small things that may interest you.
michael
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Thanks Michael interesting stuff, have had a read through this morning. The Pullens must have been a travelling family at least from the late 1700's then to have adults propping up as early as 1810. I'd not come across them before or heard of them in sources before finding this link with the Hearns. Wonder if they were one of the Non-Romany basket making families who married into the Southern community around that time, like the Brazils, Gobys etc. Could be.
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Richard there is so many things to learn, i know you yourself are a seasoned researcher but for me so many story's are eye opening, do you know Richard in my researchers for the Beaneys and related family's and the Southern Gipsies plus all related family's, i came across a word spelt Broom-dasher, i know you know but for me these things are of great interest, i have lots to put on soon on the Beaney page, many many names, you will be interested, i will just put it on as small extracts for all the many Southern People who look for their Relatives, i respect everyone, i was reading one book about Kent and the South published in the 1800s, you just would not believe it but on what they said was the Dover Road, well this writer transcribed his journey, there was all sorts going along, back and forwards, all kinds of travelers, i was amazed how life was similar in ways to our time, i try to research and learn of all the Gipsy People, i dont care what people say when they say or make out their somehow the real deal, i have always thought that in this time the true research of the Gipsies is only beginning, in the future people will look back on these times as the start, in the past those writers will be thought of as in the same way as those scholars of the past evan though they where of educated mind they will be thought of as the people who in their hearts talked of the world as being flat, i think Gipsy People mixed in the lands before they came to Britain, right from the first time, i think its true there was a great upheaval in the Country's that they say Gipsys descend from, they just got out or they died or they assimilated into the ones who were trying to enslave them, i have been looking at your web site, i see you write so many names down that are not or never were mentioned in the written history of the so-called scholars, this is just the start.
Good Luck WITH YOUR NEW BOOKS.
Leahcim
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Michael yes I think you are very right. When we read the books and writings of the past we now know so much things they didn't and can often now see where they were right or went wrong, but they were a product of their times, and I bear in mind we are still on the same road. I'm sure even in five or ten years time so much more will be known on the families and subjects I am researching now, and a lot of what I write on might also be seen differently in light of new evidence. I'm sure that will be the case, it always is. On the other hand I'm sure there is so much of the past that is simply gone forever and we will never know or really understand, stories, tales that died with the holder. That's a sad thought. But every researcher in their own way is helping us all paint a bigger picture, and I hope my few brushstrokes are doing their bit for the wider effort!
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Nathaniel Pullen 1909 is my paternal Grandfather. Please can you tell me about the book and photos for the Hearne/Pullen/Smith family.
Thanks
Sue
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Hi Sue
The photos are from a Victorian photo album. They show Mark Hearne, outside his tents with his family in East Peckham, Kent,, camped on the downs with his donkey, and out working the streets with his grinding barrow, and appear to have been taken Summer/Autumn, probably in 1900.
This is the family on the April 1901 census.
John Hearne Head M 49 Watford, Hertfordshire
Sinamenty Hearne Wife F 47 Watford, Hertfordshire
Mershach Hearne Son M 16 Fulham, London
Peter Hearne Son M 24 Fulham, London
Charles Hearne Son M 13 Fulham, London
Phoebe Pullin Daughter F 21 Watford, Hertfordshire
Samuel Smith Brother-In-Law M 52 Chiswick, Middlesex
John Le Aby Nephew M 21 Fulham, London
Mark Pullin Grand Son M 1 Uxbridge, Middlesex
The family photo I have shows five others, beside John Mark Hearne and his wife. Judging by their looks and ages from the census record I would think they are most probably Samuel Smith, Peter Hearne, Charles Hearne, Phoebe Pullen and Mark Pullen.
Regards
Richard
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Hi Richard........am I able to see these photos please? If so where will I find them.
Regards
Susa
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Hi Sue, I don't currently have scanning facilities at home, to make digital copies from the album, but will soon be getting them scanned professionally for inclusion in my research on the Hearn family, which I plan to publish in October. If you PM me your email address I will keep you updated, and am of course very happy to send you copies when this is done. Regards Richard
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Thankful so much Richard........ I will PM my email address for you.
Sue
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Hi Sue, I have now managed to scan the photos from this album and have added them to my forthcoming book on the Hearn family history, which will be published in October. Here are the pages with the scanned photos from that book. Best regards, Richard
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Hi Richard........ thank you so much for the pics......... how wonderful to now see what my great great grandparents looked like. I can definitely see a resemblance to my father....... those high cheekbones of Mark Hearne's are hard to miss!!! Which of the ladies is Cinnamenty? I look forward to your book when it's released. Thanks again........ Sue
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Hi Sue, they are great pictures arn't they. Mark was obviously very happy and at ease with the photographer. I han't been able to find out who she was, but she was obviously well to do and lived in a large home with her husband a scientist. Cinnamenty is the lady smoking the clay pipe. Best regards, Richard
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Hi again Richard........I've been studying those pics again and was wondering if in the family group the younger woman (with child) could be Phoebe Pullen (nee Hearne) and could the young man sitting down next to the lady with pipe be her husband William Isaac Pullen? Do you know who the older an standing at the back could be? If that is indeed William Isaac Pullen then he is my great grandfather. I know William & Phoebe were living with John Mark & Cinnementy in the 1901 census. Sorry to be a nuisance with all my questions. Regards, Sue
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Good morning Sue. I am pretty convinced the young women with the child is Phoebe Pullen with her baby son Mark, and the others I think are her uncle, Cinnementy's brother, Samuel Smith, and her two brothers Peter and Charles Hearn. I am basing that on the 1901 census which must have been taken about seven to eight months later:
John Hearne Head M 49 Watford, Hertfordshire
Sinamenty Hearne Wife F 47 Watford, Hertfordshire
Mershach Hearne Son M 16 Fulham, London
Peter Hearne Son M 24 Fulham, London
Charles Hearne Son M 13 Fulham, London
Phoebe Pullin Daughter F 21 Watford, Hertfordshire
Samuel Smith Brother-In-Law M 52 Chiswick, Middlesex
John Le Aby Nephew M 21 Fulham, London
Mark Pullin Grand Son M 1 Uxbridge, Middlesex
Of course it is possible the man I have guessed as being Peter Hearn, 24, might be Phoebe's husband instead. It is a shame there are no other photos to compare with.
Best regards
Richard
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Hi Richard
I have been looking for records of the Ayres for you, liked we talked about, also I found lots of references to the Hearn’s, I will put them on later but only the dates for I came across many, then if a name and date seems like one that you do not have, you then may look that record up, or other people who read may also think that the name that I put on here is worth looking up, so then everyone may benefit Richard, keep up the goodwork and i hope your Family are well.
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Hi Richard......... I have been reading, with interest, about the Hearne/Smith families. I have John Mark Hearne 7 Cinnemente Smith's marriage cert. that gives her father as Rito Smith. There has been mention about the Pullen's also being travellers or gypsies. I have traced my great grandfather William Isaac Pullen's ancestor back to 1765 and can find no evidence of them being travellers to gypsies. Pullen is quite a popular name in the Surrey area so I can imagine there must be some out there that were travellers as well. Thank you for the work you have done and I look forward to learning more. Regards, Sue.
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HELLO
I have just discovered that I may have Roma or Traveller connections as my family the Lavenders and Wilkinsons married into the Hearne family the Lavenders all seemed to marry their cousins which is common in those families....finding it all exciting as I am into tarot and astrokogy two Romany interests.....will be interested to hear anything about the families mentioned Patricia redman
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John Mark (he often just wet by Mark) Hearn(e) was my 2nd great Grandfather. He was born in Watford 1851 to Josiah & Leander Hearne. He died 13/021/1924/ He married Cinnamenty Smith daughter of Righteous and Trainety Smith 04/05/1874 in Chiswick. They supposedly had 16 children (10 of them dying before 1911). John Mark's daughter Phoebe married William Isaac Pullen. Phoebe and William are my Great Grandparents. I have a couple of photos of John Mark, maybe they are the same as you have.
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I have the wedding certificate of John Mark Hearne and Cinnementy (Sinnementy) Smith if you are interested in seeing it I can email it to you.
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Sorry for jumping on this chat.
I've just been looking through the comments after receiving an email from my cousin about John Lewis and Rito Smith. The details of the newspaper report does appear to match our 2GGF, John Lewis (bap 1845 in Pitsford, Northamptonshire). John's father was still living in Kingsthorpe in 1871, which would probably be why he would have gone back to Kingsthorpe.
Mark and Sinamenty Hearn were witnesses to John's marriage to Louisa Smith in Hammersmith in 1877. Mark was also a witness on John's daughter's marriage certificate in West Kensington in 1886 (Jane Lewis - Jane gave her address as The Van, Connor's Ground, Fulham).
We are not absolutely sure about John's wife either. The information for the Census of 1881 and 1891 shows conflicting information, wife's name switches from Elizabeth (b Woolstone, Warwickshire) to Louisa (b Oxfordshire, then to Northamptonshire in 1901, then back to Woolston in 1921) ???
We cannot find Jane Lewis' birth or baptism record; she was apparently born in Battersea c1865 (1939 Register shows 22 Sep 1865 - no long after John's brush with Rito Smith in Jan 1865).
sueswright, can you tell me who the witnesses were on John Mark Hearn and Sinimenty Smith's witnesses were on their marriage certificate please.
I would appreciate any information you have on any relationship with the Lewis' Hearns and Smiths.
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So very sorry for my late reply....the witnesses to John Mark Hearn and Sinnamenty Smith were Henry Lovell and Fanny Coates.
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Also Sinnementy Smith had a sister Louisa Smith....I am quite confident that it's the same Louisa Smith that married John Lewis. Still researching to get proof.
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Apologies for Jumping in on this chat.
Jane Lewis B1865 is my GGrandmother and John Lewis B1846 my GGGrandfather.
Like Sue I have always thought there was a family link between John Lewis's wife Louisa Smith and Mark Hearn and Sinamenty Hearn nee Smith, particularly as the Hearn family name shows up in my DNA matches. I too thought that Louisa Smith could be a sister of Sinamenty Smith, however on John Lewis marriage record to Louisa Smith her fathers name is recorded as Samuel Smith, so maybe she is a cousin.
It does seem strange that if John Lewis was involved in the robbery of Rito Smith, that his daughter Sinamentry Smith and her husband Mark Hearn would then be a witness at John Lewis and Louisa Smith's wedding.
I have never been able to find a record of Jane Lewis birth either, and as Hotdesker says John Lewis wife's name seen to fluctuate, but I always suspected that he had been married twice or at least cohabited with Elizabeth before he married Louisa Smith in 1877. Particularly as it looks like 4 of John Lewis children were born before he married Louisa Smith in 1877.
I too would appreciate any information you have on any relationship between the Lewis, Hearn and Smith families.
Many thanks