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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: Mairi Coyne on Friday 08 June 18 03:25 BST (UK)

Title: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Mairi Coyne on Friday 08 June 18 03:25 BST (UK)
Hi everyone,

I have a slightly strange request so thank you for bearing with me. I am looking for a name off a grave in Lochmaben cemetary. It’s my great grandfather. I was there at his grave as a small child, but am unsure of his name. My grandfather has since died and no one in the family knows the name any more so we are desperate to find it out.

We think the first name is probably Robert or Alan.
We believe other family members are buried nearby (also possibly a Robert or Alan).
The inscription on the grave is quite specific, it says he was a member of the Palestine Police and then the British military (I want to say RAF but may be wrong), and went missing in action. We think the year was 1941, but could be off by a couple of years.
Possibly born around or before 1910.

I know this is a long shot and an odd one but if anyone knows anything that might help I would so appreciate it.


Thank you!

Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 08 June 18 04:36 BST (UK)
Can you help us with which side of your family, maternal/paternal?

What is the name of your g/dad who's now deceased, when/where did he die?

What relationship is your g/dad to your g g/dad, is he the son or son-in-law?

Please post as much details as is known for further help.

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Mairi Coyne on Friday 08 June 18 16:28 BST (UK)
Hi Annie,

Thanks for your reply!

It’s the maternal side of my family.

My grandfather, Alan Graham Smith, was born in Glasgow, Scotland, and died in 2017 in Melvern Square, NS, Canada. He emigrated to Canada in the late 40s, from Mouswald where he lived.

He was the illegitimate son of Janet Graham Smith and our mystery man. Janet Smith lived in Lochmaben. Her parents were James Graham Smith and Mary Jane McMinn, and her siblings were Jean, Graham, and Robert Swan.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 08 June 18 18:14 BST (UK)
I see the father wasn't present at registration which makes things a bit trickier!

There's 3 listed for 1940s but neither has a forename similar to names you have?

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results/?cemetery=LOCHMABEN%20CEMETERY

This one looks a possible as his parents are noted as 'of Glasgow'?

Private HENDERSON, GORDON MILLER
Service Number 3065085
Died 02/01/1942
Aged 19
70th Bn. Royal Scots

Son of George and Marian Henderson, of Glasgow; grandson of Mrs. G. Henderson, of Glasgow

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Mairi Coyne on Friday 08 June 18 19:17 BST (UK)
It’s definitely possible that we are wrong about the forename, but the age isn’t right either as my grandfather was born in 1929 and Mystery Man had already I believe been in the Palestine Police before the war so he couldn’t have been so young. 

Is it possible it wasn’t listed as a war grave because there was no body? The stone may have been put up later.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 08 June 18 19:54 BST (UK)
Is it possible it wasn’t listed as a war grave because there was no body? The stone may have been put up later.

I'm a bit confused because I interpreted the "Cemetery or memorial" would have listed all war dead with & without a body  :-\

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Mairi Coyne on Friday 08 June 18 20:14 BST (UK)
I agree that it is strange. I have looked at the list of commonwealth war graves in the cemetary. There are pictures and copies of the inscriptions available online and it isn’t one of them. I have been to the graveyard so I know his grave his there, and the inscription doesn’t match any on the commonwealth graves. I don’t know why it wouldn’t be. We also went and saw his name in the book in war memorial in Edinburgh.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Smith.hx on Friday 08 June 18 20:26 BST (UK)
My sister remembers the directions to the grave marker (but not the name. Go figure) Alan G Smith was born in Gorbals in 1929 an his father had already left for the Palestine Police Force. We believe Alan G Smith’s father left the Palestine Police Force and joined the RAF (that detail may be incorrect) Janet G Smith was born in Glasgow in 1899 and died approximately 1972.  We are assuming (for the sake of research) that they were similar age. Many of the records that I have reviewed are of men much younger. Thanks for all your help and suggestions. I think a road trip to Scotland is in order.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Mairi Coyne on Friday 08 June 18 20:34 BST (UK)
Amendment: Mum says that Mystery Man was rumoured to be considerably younger than Janet. 5-10 years.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 08 June 18 20:40 BST (UK)
This is going to be a hard nut to crack I think.

I wonder if your g/dads' forename Alan is the clue?

Do you know why the MI is in Lochmaben, did the man come from there, was Alans' mother still in a relationship with him at the time of his death?

Any clues at all may help?

Annie

Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 08 June 18 20:46 BST (UK)
Mairi, do you think if you saw the name you would recognise it?

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Smith.hx on Friday 08 June 18 20:53 BST (UK)
We don’t believe Janet and the father of her child maintained any relationship however, Alan G Smith had contact with his paternal grandparents until they died. He moved from Gorbals to Mouswald when he was quite young (5 ish) and Janet remained in Glasgow. I think looking at Alan as the surname may be helpful. Also other possible names are Andrew and Alexander. They just appear on the family tree for no reason whilst other names like Robert and Graham appear often. 
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Smith.hx on Friday 08 June 18 20:54 BST (UK)
Mairi may not but her mother might.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Mairi Coyne on Friday 08 June 18 21:00 BST (UK)
Mum or I might recognise the name, yes, possibly.

We think mystery man’s parents were from Lochmaben and were buried in the cemetary also.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 08 June 18 21:28 BST (UK)
I have only been going throught the Minor Records on SP using;
Birth 1907 +/- 5 (1902 - 1912)
Death 1939 - 1943
Age 29 - 39

An awful lot of 'could be's before I narrowed it down with surname Allan.

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 08 June 18 21:46 BST (UK)
These might be worth scrolling through, I don't know how many are there but one never knows?

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m6d/

Annie

Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 08 June 18 22:08 BST (UK)
Not sure if this could mention your mystery man as the yr is out from what you thought as well as not being scottish papers?

"Oil TWO BRITISH POLICE OFFICERS KILLED Fatal Gallantry in Palestine HAIFA, Monday TWO British members the Palestine Police Force and an Arab were killed and three other Arabs wounded In two bomb explosions near the site of the British-owned Iraq Petroleum .."

Published Tuesday 12 April 1938
Newspaper Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 08 June 18 23:08 BST (UK)
Did your g/father not give his father's name on his marriage & was it not recorded on his death?

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Mairi Coyne on Friday 08 June 18 23:12 BST (UK)
He always alleged he didn’t ever know his father’s name.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 08 June 18 23:20 BST (UK)
How do you know you were at the correct grave if he didn't know the name of his father?

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 08 June 18 23:24 BST (UK)
Were his g/parents deceased when he immigrated to Canada or did they remain in contact by airmail?

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Mairi Coyne on Friday 08 June 18 23:38 BST (UK)
His father was deceased but he stayed in touch with Janet Smith (his mother) until she died.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 08 June 18 23:47 BST (UK)
I think you misread my message asking if the g/parents were deceased when your g/father immigrated?

Was hoping there may have been letters with names/adresses?

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Mairi Coyne on Friday 08 June 18 23:52 BST (UK)
Sorry! My great grandmother Janet was alive when my grandfather Alan came to Canada. His father, whose name we don’t know, was dead by then.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 09 June 18 00:04 BST (UK)
No, Alans' g/parents, parents of his deceased father who died in action, were they still alive, was he in touch with them?

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Smith.hx on Saturday 09 June 18 02:11 BST (UK)
We believe at least one of his paternal parents was alive in 1941. They are both buried beside his grave marker. Alan G Smith father only has a grave marker in Lochmaben. It has his name. Missing in action. 1941. Palestine Police Force and we believe it says RAF. 

And he had contact with them until they died.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: IMBER on Saturday 09 June 18 10:10 BST (UK)
I'm just catching up on this query so may be missing the obvious but if he was "missing in action" then how were his remains recovered? If, however, they were recovered the fact that he had died in action means that it was probable that he died outwith the UK. If so then he would have been buried overseas as the policy was not to repatriate. If that were the case could it be that his name was added to a family gravestone? That was quite common.

I imagine this is the Edinburgh war memorial you mention:

https://www.snwm.org/roll-search/

Imber
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 09 June 18 12:54 BST (UK)
Imber, I agree it does seem to be a family stone?

Mairi,

I don't know how large Lochmaben Cemetery is but it may be worth posting a request for someone to have a look for the stone with all the info. you have as with no name it's very difficult to speculate?

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Smith.hx on Saturday 09 June 18 15:58 BST (UK)
We believe his name is Robert Rutherford. He went missing in action in 1943.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: IMBER on Monday 11 June 18 09:08 BST (UK)
This chap seems the nearest fit:

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1282433/rutherford,-robert/

But note that he is commemorated on the Alamein Memorial because he has no known grave. As mentioned earlier, it was sometimes the case that such persons were also named on family headstones. However, the Scottish Military Research Group has recorded all the CWGC headstones in Lochmaben Cemetery AND all the private headstones that have a mention of war dead. They appear not to have found any reference to Robert Rutherford, and they are very thorough. So, something doesn't fit. If the name is correct then could it be in a different cemetery? There is also another Robert Rutherford who died in 1941 but was in the army. Oddly he too has no known grave and is also commemorated on the Alamein Memorial.

Imber
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: IMBER on Monday 11 June 18 09:25 BST (UK)
Note the place of birth:

https://www.snwm.org/roll-search/?id=745660&searchid=2f78ad1d13d9eeb2be03219acde6257d&page=1

Imber
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Monday 11 June 18 10:32 BST (UK)
From Service Returns on scotlandspeople.gov.uk

RUTHERFORD ROBERT 35
1943
157/AF 100
Service Returns

Unfortunately, I don't know what info. would be on there but may be worth chasing for any small clue to work out whether or not it is him?

Annie

Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Monday 11 June 18 10:38 BST (UK)
This looks to be him & the only birth in Dumfries 1906 - 1910?

RUTHERFORD ROBERT 1907
847/ 12
St Mungo (Dumfries)

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: IMBER on Monday 11 June 18 11:17 BST (UK)
Came across this on the internet:

"Rob Milton writes: 
I started to look for the history of my mother's father who was Sgt. Robert Rutherford,1367207,RAFVR.   
I found as much as he was killed in action aged 25 on 23 March,1943. I haven't been able to find out much more than that but I know he is remembered with honour at the Alamein Memorial with the sterling help of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.   I hope this will help you and if I find any other info, I will most certainly pass it on to you."

Looks like the right chap, but he seems to have got the wrong age.

Imber


 







 
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Smith.hx on Monday 11 June 18 15:01 BST (UK)
These are the notes my sister took when she was at the cemetery. We are assuming they are mostly correct.

New Lochmaben Cemetery:
Newer section:
“In loving memory of Thomas McMinn who died 4th February 1937 aged 63 years. Also his wife Esther Carruthers died 16th November 1940. Also their son Abraham G. McMinn died 21st March 1996, aged 91. Also his beloved wife Jessie D. Anderson sho died 8th March 1997, aged 88.”
 
-Robert Ruthersford sonf of John and Margaret Stirling. Robert, SECT. W/O. A. G. reported missing in middle east 22nd March 1943. Aged 35 years.
 

The McMinns are descents in my father’s maternal side. 

We have followed Robert and his wife Isabella for a few generations but without accessing the Palestine Police Force Nominal Roll, it’s a guessing game. 
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: IMBER on Monday 11 June 18 15:48 BST (UK)
You seem to have a lot of information on Robert. What is it you are still trying to find out?

Imber
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Monday 11 June 18 16:39 BST (UK)
I've had a look through a few of these although not all but there's no mention of Robert Ruther(s)ford in New Lochmaben Cemetery.

http://www.johnmacmillan.co.uk/indx_cemetery.html

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: IMBER on Tuesday 12 June 18 12:15 BST (UK)
The following relates to the loss of the aircraft in which Rutherford was a crew member:

https://thameremembers.org/Crosses/sergeant-henry-william-little/

Imber
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 June 18 13:03 BST (UK)
Robert Ruthersford sonf of John and Margaret Stirling. Robert, SECT. W/O. A. G. reported missing in middle east 22nd March 1943. Aged 35 years.
 
We have followed Robert and his wife Isabella for a few generations but without accessing the Palestine Police Force Nominal Roll, it’s a guessing game.

I'm unsure as to what you mean by "it’s a guessing game" but what I am sure of is, it seems we have been been misinformed on this thread?

We seem to have gone from not knowing the name i.e. forename & surname to "We have followed Robert and his wife Isabella for a few generations".

Some of us have spent a lot of valuable time on this request only to discover some/most/all of our work was already known?

It would be much appreciated if either Mairi or Smith.hx could let us know if any of our research was of any help?

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Smith.hx on Tuesday 19 June 18 15:33 BST (UK)
We started our research after my father died. His family has always been a family with many secrets - his father’s name was one of them.  We had a file from a visit to Lochmaben cemetery but it was old and much of the information was corrupt and thus not accessible. Thus we had a possible name and the fact he was in the Palestine Police Force and we believe later with the RAFVR and was reported missing in action. We knew this information but not a name or anything about his family. With the help of this and other sites, and wading through fragments of corrupt files, we believe his name was Robert Rutherford. I went though the online was memorial site and searched names, birth date and date of aircraft accident and cross referenced it with other sources. We then found his wife’s name and located two other generations of his family and one other generation of her family. However, there is nothing definitively linking Robert Rutherford to my father. So it’s still a guessing game. Sorry if you feel we misled you but we’ve made use of the information and sites suggested and have found information we haven’t found prior to know.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 June 18 16:19 BST (UK)
Thanks for your explanation (much appreciated) which wasn't clear in the previous posts.

Let's go back to your father & what info. he gave?

Did he tell you his father was in the Palestine Police although he didn't know his name?

Little seeds of info. can lead to so much more i.e. anything at all which was mentioned by your father would be appreciated.

There must have been something mentioned at some time although it's unclear as to why there was secrecy?

An occupation such as 'Police' would be something very much enforced when speaking of the paternity of an illegitimate child (I would think)?

Is there anything else which points to the above?

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Smith.hx on Tuesday 19 June 18 16:32 BST (UK)
My father never spoke to us about his father.  What we know, we know from brief conversations with family members.  As to why such a family secret - one of life’s mysteries. We are going to Scotland to look at the nominal Roll of the Palestine police force and back to the cemetery in Lochmaben to do some onsite research
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 June 18 16:46 BST (UK)
What we know, we know from brief conversations with family members.

That's a start, can you give any of the info, from those conversations as each little thread does help?

I just want to be sure if we are following the correct person or not which is all dependant on what info. (no matter how little) you can throw into the pot?

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 19 June 18 16:52 BST (UK)
What surprises me is your g g/mother did not (or maybe she did) persue a paternity/maintenance claim for her son if his father had such a good position as I believe the 'Forces' were pretty strict with maintenance/alimony issues?

Annie
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: mojoh on Saturday 18 August 18 21:59 BST (UK)
My grandad’s name was Robert Rutherford. I note there is a lot of interest regarding him.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Smith.hx on Saturday 18 August 18 22:15 BST (UK)
My sister and I have been exploring our father’s family and believe his father was Robert Rutherford. What was your grandfathers occupation prior to the war.
Title: Re: Lochmaben Cemetery MIA Name
Post by: Ian_A_B on Sunday 08 November 20 17:23 GMT (UK)
Robert Rutherford was an estate game keeper.