RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Treetotal on Wednesday 13 June 18 12:20 BST (UK)
-
Could anyone please advise what the cross is on this Nurses chatelaine please.
Thanks for looking.
Carol
-
The heraldic term is a cross pattée (or patty)
-
Thanks KG...I will remember that.
Carol
-
Could it be a WW1 Baden Volunteer Nurse's Cross? (or similar?)
See: https://www.emedals.com/a-first-war-1914-16-baden-volunteer-nurse-s-cross
Added: Or a Royal Red Cross, King George V?
https://collections.museumvictoria.com.au/items/1206649
-
Thanks KG for taking the time to look and both have possibilities though not sure which...there is also this which leads me to think it's the one in the first link.
Added: I've just realised that the raised shoulders of her uniform date it to 1890s so not likely to be WW1
Carol
-
Some clues here:
http://schoolsofnursing.co.uk/Nursingbadges/Articles/Badgedesignxx.htm
MaxD
-
Hi Max...Thanks for your response and your input....I have had a look but can't see a match for the cross on the link at the moment but worth looking a bit deeper.
I hope she only wore it for the photo and not in practice as she could have had someone's eye out with that ;D
Carol
-
Couldn't resist doing a quick cleanup of this one. Hope you enjoy!
-
She looks more ready for the ward round now with her clean hat and apron doesn't she ;D
Carol
-
A touch of color too.
-
It looks good with a hint of colour doesn't it :D
Carol
-
Maybe it is a weapon for use against unruly patients- you could do some damage swinging that on its chain!!
I wonder if it is wooden maybe.
Or maybe a sign of office. Maybe a senior sister with the drug cupboard keys hidden behind the cross. ;)
Been looking through lots of old Nurse uniform photos and I wonder if it dates from around the Boer war. Some very similar uniforms about that time - including the sleeves.
Scroll down on this link to the one I've enlarged.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m70/
Wiggy ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D
-
Prompted by Wiggy's post see attached and the link:
https://historycomestolife.wordpress.com/2016/04/01/six-ozzie-nurses-in-south-africa/
Doesn't ID the cross exactly but seems to confirm the time line.
MaxD
-
The only thing that I have come up with are these
http://guides.naa.gov.au/boer-war/gallery/image003.aspx
http://www.healthmuseumsa.org.au/histories/nursing-uniforms-of-royal-adelaide-hospital-1890-to-1990/ (Scroll down, 3rd photograph.)
Both are Australian. The Royal British Nurses’ Association is mentioned. I wonder if the cross is an early version of their cross.
Malky
-
Well a couple of those Aussie nurses have crosses hanging by their sides too . . . Different crosses, but . .,. . . . maybe. :-\
Wiggy
-
Maybe it is a weapon for use against unruly patients- you could do some damage swinging that on its chain!!
I wonder if it is wooden maybe.
Or maybe a sign of office. Maybe a senior sister with the drug cupboard keys hidden behind the cross. ;)
Been looking through lots of old Nurse uniform photos and I wonder if it dates from around the Boer war. Some very similar uniforms about that time - including the sleeves.
Scroll down on this link to the one I've enlarged.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m70/
Wiggy ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D
I think you are on the right track there Wiggy because the Boer War was what I thought too due to the date of the photo. Thanks for taking the time to look. :D
Also thanks to Malky and Max for your helpful responses, it's very much appreciated.
Carol
-
A last thought perhaps (as we haven't identified the cross yet!). What caught my eye in the first link I posted was It has been traditional for many years for hospital training schools to issue hospital badges to qualified nurses. Many of these badges have their origins in military, chivalric and religious orders. The Victorians had a great love of medals and decorations. It was in the 1860s that some hospitals introduced prizes in the form of medals & badges to encourage higher standards.
There is a contact email webmaster@schoolsofnursing.co.uk<webmaster@schoolsofnursing.co.uk>;
May be worth an email?
MaxD
-
The only thing I can add is that the cross pictured is NOT a Maltese Cross - as used by The Order of St John, and St John organisations across the globe.
As I said, a cross pattée (patty) or perhaps a cross formée?
-
A last thought perhaps (as we haven't identified the cross yet!). What caught my eye in the first link I posted was It has been traditional for many years for hospital training schools to issue hospital badges to qualified nurses. Many of these badges have their origins in military, chivalric and religious orders. The Victorians had a great love of medals and decorations. It was in the 1860s that some hospitals introduced prizes in the form of medals & badges to encourage higher standards.
There is a contact email webmaster@schoolsofnursing.co.uk<webmaster@schoolsofnursing.co.uk>;
May be worth an email?
MaxD
Thanks for that Max...I will give that some thought.
Carol
-
The only thing I can add is that the cross pictured is NOT a Maltese Cross - as used by The Order of St John, and St John organisations across the globe.
As I said, a cross pattée (patty) or perhaps a cross formée?
I didn't think it was KG it's not the right formation but thanks for the conformation, very helpful :D
Carol
-
I can't quite make the cross out properly.Is it the same?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01m71/
-
It could be
Audrey...Hepburn but not sure...the link shows a later uniform...late 1890s and mine is early-mid decade judging by the sleeves. The cross is very similar but a bit smaller than the one in my photo I think, but not sure.
Thanks for taking the time to look and respond, it's very much appreciated :D
Carol
-
Found this pic on Pinterest,but no more detail sadly.
Similar crosses appear associated with Alfred(?) Hosptal Australia(?)
Regards
Roger
-
Seems to be several variations of the cross;
http://www.petersnursingcollectables.com/photos/51777t.jpg
http://www.petersnursingcollectables.com/photos/51898t.jpg
http://www.petersnursingcollectables.com/photos/51783t.jpg
http://www.petersnursingcollectables.com/photos/51779t.jpg
-
Interesting Youngtug, but your examples seem to be badges to be worn - i.e. smaller than the large cross hanging by the woman's side. (I think the second example is closest in shape.)
Someone mentioned chatelaine - I wondered if it might be big enough to carry bits and pieces required on her duties - odd shape though, unless the main vertical part is a pocket and the side arms are just for show that she belongs to a particular hospital, and they wear a similar shaped badge. (- - if you follow my drift)
Wiggy :)
-
Found this pic on Pinterest,but no more detail sadly.
Similar crosses appear associated with Alfred(?) Hosptal Australia(?)
Regards
Roger
Very similar outfit Roger just a bit later in the decade...she too is wearing a chatelaine as my lady is.
Thanks for your interest.
Carol
-
Seems to be several variations of the cross;
http://www.petersnursingcollectables.com/photos/51777t.jpg
http://www.petersnursingcollectables.com/photos/51898t.jpg
http://www.petersnursingcollectables.com/photos/51783t.jpg
http://www.petersnursingcollectables.com/photos/51779t.jpg
The one in the fourth link seems to be the closest in shape I think it's too small. My nurse also has a small medal on a bar but I couldn't scan it any clearer unfortunately.
Thanks for taking the time to look.
Carol
-
Interesting Youngtug, but your examples seem to be badges to be worn - i.e. smaller than the large cross hanging by the woman's side. (I think the second example is closest in shape.)
Someone mentioned chatelaine - I wondered if it might be big enough to carry bits and pieces required on her duties - odd shape though, unless the main vertical part is a pocket and the side arms are just for show that she belongs to a particular hospital, and they wear a similar shaped badge. (- - if you follow my drift)
Wiggy :)
The cross in the second link is quite close but it has a crown on the top unlike the one in my photo. I mentioned that she was wearing a chatelaine in my first post.
Thanks for your thoughts and your interest Wiggy....it all helps to narrow down the possibilities when people offer their suggestions.
Carol
-
I think that the cross may be a Propaganda Iron Cross sold in the UK during WW1 to aid the war effort. These artifacts were roughly cast in iron and had a variety of caricatures and slogans as part of the casting. "Fur Kultur" being common.
The nurse is showing solidarity with the war effort. (probably unofficially) in this studio photograph.
Istrice
-
http://www.healthmuseumsa.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/chatelaine-001.jpg
-
It looks like it's made of material and used for safety pins :)
-
http://www.healthmuseumsa.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/chatelaine-001.jpg
Well done on that great find YT....I think you have solved it 8) it looks like Wiggy was thinking along the same lines 8)
Thanks so much for taking the time.
Thanks also to Istrice and Hepburn for your interesting responses.
Carol
-
Quick acknowledgement to Flattybasher who posted a link to the Aussie health museum photo yesterday! :)
MaxD
-
I think such badges were awarded at end of training when they were qualified and became a 'staff nurse''. Attached is the best I can do. My mother was just pre SRN. It's 1 1/4" wide and 1 1/2" high. Left says King, top says Edward VII, right says Hospital and bottom says Windsor.
My mother got bored in the 60's and went back to nursing for a few years. One patient exclaimed 'my dear, you've got the Victoria Cross'!!!
-
Quick acknowledgement to Flattybasher who posted a link to the Aussie health museum photo yesterday! :)
MaxD
I did thank him Max....I just never enlarged the photo to see the detail that YT posted so I never made the connection :-\
Carol
-
I think such badges were awarded at end of training when they were qualified and became a 'staff nurse''. Attached is the best I can do. My mother was just pre SRN. It's 1 1/4" wide and 1 1/2" high. Left says King, top says Edward VII, right says Hospital and bottom says Windsor.
My mother got bored in the 60's and went back to nursing for a few years. One patient exclaimed 'my dear, you've got the Victoria Cross'!!!
Thanks for that Gregorian...I wonder if that is a smaller version attached to a bar in my photo.
Carol
-
I don't know Carol. I can only assume that the sizes got smaller as time went on. My mother trained something like 1936 to 1939. I have the exact dates somewhere.
I don't think they were issued post-war ie NHS. Pre NHS hospitals and doctors were private. One little anecdote. The trainee nurses lived in nurses homes. The food was not considered good and the nurses at Windsor went to see the matron. Matron was scandalised at the nurses complaining and said the food was good. One nurse, by name Vinnecombe, a fully paid up member of Mosley's black shirts said 'Matron, good fish doesn't stink!'
Another thing, these pre-war nurses had a loyalty to one another life long. They always referred to each other by their surnames. They wrote to each other and when my mother died I found hundreds of letters the last of which were from husbands saying that their wives had died.
-
Thanks for sharing that with us Regorian and it was very interesting to read, but, it's worth noting that the photo was taken in the early-mid 1890s :)
Carol