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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: yasi123 on Tuesday 26 June 18 23:59 BST (UK)
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i have been researching joy born 1916 victoria
her mother was
may beatrice or beatrice may moule lattimer/lattimore, born 1887 sandhurst victoria died 1966 in western australia and i think she is buried in collie cemetery , she married first walter moule, 1917 in victoria , then in western australia married again to martin berg 1951
of joy
i know joy married percival frederick hunt he died at wallaroo south australia in 1987
supposedly they had 3 children,
of joy it was supposed her mother was beatrice may or may beatrice no father can be found for her, was she adopted by the woman who was know as her mother, nothing can be found
joy died in 1995 moonta SA
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Moonta Cemetery; Section: East 26; Plot/Grave/Niche: 68
Joy HUNT http://www.coppercoast.sa.gov.au/page.aspx?u=1656&c=20266
Percival Frederick HUNT http://www.coppercoast.sa.gov.au/page.aspx?u=1656&c=20442
Both have death notices in Adelaide Advertiser which may provide details of children etc.
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May be of interest https://www.ancestry.com.au/boards/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=11053&p=localities.oceania.australia.vic.general
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May I suggest you use Uppercase to commence you sentences and also type the surnames in uppercase. Makes it easier to read and understand.
May I ask the source of your information to save us doing duplicate searching? Is it from a public tree on Ancestry?
There is no registration for an illegitimate female birth to a May Beatrice LATTIMORE including spelling variations, in Victoria at all.
You can search for Joy's birth yourself. Vic BDM's are online however I use my own resources.
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj
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Perhaps the man named in this court hearing could be the father. However seriously I doubt you will find the father of an illegitimate child whose birth was not registered.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199592151
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of joy it was supposed her mother was beatrice may or may beatrice no father can be found for her, was she adopted by the woman who was know as her mother, nothing can be found
So who adopted Joy?
It is unclear in your post.
"she adopted by the woman who was know as her mother"
If it was supposed/known that May was her mother, then did May adopt her?
Who did all the supposing?
What records show any parents?
Sue
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And the details of this marriage MAY help you. Was her maiden name MOULE or was it BERG? Indexed twice as there appears to have been some confusion. Seems a bit odd if it was either as you state she was adopted and these are her birth mother's married names ::)
HUNT Percival F
BERG (Moule) Joy
1936 Reg#2
District East Coolgardie
HUNT Percival F
MOULE (Berg) Joy L
1936 Reg#2
District East Coolgardie
Edit to remove info
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Well,
I still don't understand who adopted her and why.
Was she May's child or not May's child?
Was she May's adopted child? Is that the question?
Sue
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Those are great questions from everyone. May I add some more ... as I am still trying to figure out how the people named in the OP are connecting to MCMAHON in the following current thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793963.0
JM
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Perhaps the man named in this court hearing could be the father. However seriously I doubt you will find the father of an illegitimate child whose birth was not registered.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199592151
Wondering if this is the same chap? Both mention Alfred Hazell of Smith street. Seems to interchange John and Alfred on various records.
Vic marriage:
1915 #2851 Alfd Jno HAZELL and Hazel Vivian McGEE
Birth: 1916 #13760 Alfd Jno HAZELL
Father: Alfd Jno
Mother: Hazel (Mcgee)
Place of birth: MELB E
Death: 1916 #6958 Alfd Jno HAZELL
Father: Jno Alfd HAZELL
Mother: Hazel Vivian Hesse (Mcgee)
Place of death: Melb E
Age: 1
The Age 8June1917 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/154977021
MISSING FRIENDS
ADDRESS John Alfred Hazell, late of Smith-st., requested; sad news for him. Reward....
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So who adopted Joy?
It is unclear in your post.
"she adopted by the woman who was know as her mother"
If it was supposed/known that May was her mother, then did May adopt her?
Who did all the supposing?
What records show any parents?
Sue
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I do know the family and perhaps can explain,
Joy L MOULE/BERG was raised by May Beatrice LATTIMORE/MOULE/BERG. Joy's family knew that Joy was adopted but that there was no birth certificate for her, I dont know if it was a formal adoption or not but on her marriage certificate, Joy put her father and mother down as unknown. If properly adopted, she should have listed May B.
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I dont know if it was a formal adoption or not but on her marriage certificate, Joy put her father and mother down as unknown. If properly adopted, she should have listed May B.
There was no such thing as formal/official adoption in Victoria until 1929 so whether there might be any records would depend on how old she was when she began being cared for by May. There is generally an expectation that you provide the names of your biological parents when you marry if they are known. In 1936 she could have named anyone she chose because no checks were made and many adoptees simply named their adoptive parents if they were the only ones they knew.
Some information here:
https://guides.slv.vic.gov.au/adoption/victoria
State ward records up to 1918 can be viewed in person at PROV but records less that 100 years are closed. You would probably be successful at gaining access via freedom of information as she is now deceased.
https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/adoption-and-wardship-1864-1961/wards-state-1864-1966
Debra :)
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I do know the family and perhaps can explain,
Joy L MOULE/BERG was raised by May Beatrice LATTIMORE/MOULE/BERG. Joy's family knew that Joy was adopted but that there was no birth certificate for her, I dont know if it was a formal adoption or not but on her marriage certificate, Joy put her father and mother down as unknown. If properly adopted, she should have listed May B.
I would suspect the family knew a good deal more too, but chose to conceal the details ;D
The most likely mother of Joy would be a close female relative.
Sue
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Thank you Kermie.
Many illegitimate births were never registered in that era.
Now for Yasi123/JACKEROO/Dee King to respond. I often wonder why people need more than one user name.
Cando
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:)
And, as Joy married in 1936, in Victoria, I wonder who provided consent for that marriage... she had not yet reached her own majority ... and it seems she did not know her parents' names,
From the excellent Victoria Resources Board :
· Details on ALL Certificates for Victoria
· http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
· http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
JM
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To make Things Clear, below is a time line of the information I have. There is some difference in documents over Joys year of birth. I have the marriage certificate for Joy but it is too large to post
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Agh, so 1936 marriage was in Western Australia ....
So who gave permission for Joy to marry, she was not yet 21 as per the opening post...
JM
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The extract from the marriage certificate for Moule, there is a second listing for Berg. There was no indication for permission to marry. I have a certificate from 1926 and in that case, the permission of the father was indicated.
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I don't have a copy of the Western Australia Marriage Act of 1894, but I am confident that the WA law would have required someone other than the bride to give consent to that marriage, afterall, she had not yet reached majority and therefore was not yet old enough to give consent herself. I wonder if the clergy recorded that detail on the original register.
JM
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In considering the mother of Joy, you give this -
"...may beatrice or beatrice may moule lattimer/lattimore, born 1887 sandhurst victoria "
"..was she adopted by the woman who was know as her mother"
Is this woman the same May Beatrice LATTIMER / LATTIMORE, and you doubt that she really is the mother of Joy...….
Or is there a second woman, so far unnamed by you, and believed to be the birth mother of Joy?
What names do you see for witnesses on the marriage certificate, 1936, WA?
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apologies
often i google names to see if i can find any thing, or trove
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apologies
often i google names to see if i can find any thing, or trove
Deidre this reply doesn't make sense. If you are having problems logging in with your original user name JACKEROO and another name Dee King, then you could ask a moderator for assistance to possibly merge all three accounts.
Are these people relatives or are you helping someone else?
Sparrett, wivenhoe and I asked you questions. Could you please attempt to answer them.
Cando
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Hi,
In the 1894 WA Marriage Act the Third Schedule had two forms that covered the marriage of minors, one that covered a consent from a father, mother or guardian and another that was used by a JP.
For JP consents the JP was required to certify that they have researched the facts and circumstances of the case and that there were no valid reasons for not approving the marriage.
Both forms were under the Third Schedule of the Act.
"Form of Consent of Father Mother of Guardian to Marriage of Minors"
or
"Form of Consent of Justice of the Peace to Marriage of Minor"
The Minister or District Registrar would also have to certify in another form as per the Fourth Schedule that written consent was given to the marriage.
"Form of Endorsement of Consent to Marriage of Minor upon a Certificate of Marriage"
Gerry
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Thanks Gerry,
So I would anticipate the clery should have recorded who gave that consent and their authority to so do.
JM
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In considering the mother of Joy, you give this -
"...may beatrice or beatrice may moule lattimer/lattimore, born 1887 sandhurst victoria "
"..was she adopted by the woman who was know as her mother"
Is this woman the same May Beatrice LATTIMER / LATTIMORE, and you doubt that she really is the mother of Joy...….
Or is there a second woman, so far unnamed by you, and believed to be the birth mother of Joy?
What names do you see for witnesses on the marriage certificate, 1936, WA?
The woman who is stated as the mother of Joy Lattimer/Lattimore MOULE/BERG on the trove notices was May Beatrice LATTIMORE/BERG/MOULE.
eg On July 29, 1944, at Kalgoorlie, Elizabeth, widow of the late Frank Lattimore; beloved mother of Frank, May, Stanley and Roy; mother-in-law of Martin and Eileen and grandmother of Joy and Tom; aged 80 years.
Joy was told she was adopted and I have discovered that a second child Thomas Bruce BERG (Born 22 December 1926 was also adopted by Msay. A Birth certificate can also not be found for him.
Questions to be answered::
1) Is May the mother of one or both of the two children (Joy and Thomas) who hid this due to the perceived stigma(Joy swas born before May's first marriage, Thomas was born after the first marraige but before the second at a time it appears May may have been estranged.
2) Are Thomas and Joy brother and sister despite age difference (10 years)
3) Were both Joy and Thomas adopted at the same time or was it two actions by Joy.
And ultimately
Who were the parents of Joy and Thomas
There were no witnesses listed on the marriage certificate.
The marriage was at the Churches of Christ Kalgoorlie
I am trying to get access to the registers, I have spoken to a local historian without success.
3
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So I would anticipate the clery should have recorded who gave that consent and their authority to so do.
JM
Thanks Gerry,
I am trying to find where the registers are now as this information is not on the marraige certificate
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Hi JM,
You are correct a statement of content contained in the Fourth Schedule shall be endorsed on each register form.
Paragraph 10
"Whenever any marriage is celebrated upon the production of any such consent as aforesaid**, a statement of the fact of such consent, in the form contained in the Fourth Schedule to this Act shall be endorsed on each register form of such marriage required to be made by the law regulating the registration of marriages, and shall be signed by the minister or district registrar celebrating such marriage."
My added asterisks.
** This refers to paragraph 9 which relates to minors wanting to get marriedand the forms used as per the Third Schedule that I mentioned in my first post, ie, signed by father, mother or guardian or a JP.
Fourth Schedule.
"Form of Endorsement of Consent to Marriage of Minor upon a Certificate of Marriage."
I certify that the consent of (name in full, residence and occupation) the (father, mother or guardian) of (name in full, residence and occupation, if any) a minor, or of (name in full of.................) a Justice of the Peace, was given to the marriage to the parties named in this certificate.
(signature of Minister or District Registrar)
Gerry
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Thanks Gerry,
Similar requirements in NSW Marriage Acts :D
JM
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Hi Kermie62,
Your extra information is helpful to us all, thank you.
There are other pieces of information which would help.
Where did Joy L. go to school?
The marriage for Joy was 1936 and she states age 18. This is a birth year of 1918.
That would place her birth inside May B's marriage to MOULE.
What date each year did her family celebrate Joy's birthday?
As May B. was living in Melbourne and suburbs in 1914 and 1918, according to the electoral roll, a birth for Joy would probably not be rural.
Who were May B.'s siblings? Were there unmarried sisters of child bearing age in 1916 to 1918?
On the death certificates of May B. or either of her partners, what is stated about "issue of the marriages"?
What age is recorded for Joy L. at death?
Perhaps some of these questions have already been addressed in the thread, but with the confusion over who is OP and who is ",assistant OP"I may have missed them :D
Sue
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:)
Re the computer generated 1936 WA m.c.
Apparently the WA Registrar currently has powers that give the officer authority to NOT INCLUDE some of the info on the original registrations when issuing certificates.... I wonder if that power (exercised in the report linked below) is not just applied for ethnicity, ....
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-17/aboriginal-term-deemed-offensive-births-deaths-marriages/9753430
JM