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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: xiaolu on Friday 29 June 18 15:44 BST (UK)
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I am facing the need to obtain a NSW death certificate for a person who passed away more recently than 30 years ago.
The NSW BDM website says:
This application form can only be used if the death occurred in NSW. If you are the next-of-kin named on the death certificate i.e. spouse ( married, defacto, same sex defacto ) , parent, or child of the deceased, the death certificate can be issued to you. If you are a relative not listed on the certificate, the certificate can be issued to you if the deceased HAD ( my emphasis ) no living spouse, children or parents.
This seems to me, somewhat ambiguous and also somewhat unworkable.
It is my understanding, that a person has a single "next of kin", and that spouses have priority, then children, then parents. I don't know exactly how the BDM department applies this. I do know that in WW1, there was a great deal of bickering over whether soldiers were allowed to name their mother as next-of-kin.
It also seems, from the BDM website, that what was recorded when the death occured has precedence, not the situation at the time when the certificate was sought.
Do death certificates now actually specify a "next of kin"? I have bought a few and recently inherited many more. But most of them are 50-150 years old. None of them explicitly seem to name a next-of-kin, as such.
Many of them don't name children, only something like ( 2 sons, 3 daughters ).
Here are some scenarios. I know some of you are experts and would be able to clarify these.
(1) My father died in 1991, less than 30 years ago. At the time, he was married to his second wife, who died in 1995. I am the only child named on his death certificate. In 1991, his second wife was his next-of-kin, not me.
How many hoops to do I have to jump through to prove she is dead, and therefore I am the next-of-kin? Bearing in mind, I am not her next-of-kin, because she has or had a son from her first marriage, who I only met once, don't know his middle name, may or may not be still living, had a very common surname and lived in another state. Anyway, the point is that I probably don't have legal standing to apply for my step-mother's death certificate either, so how can I legally prove that she is dead then ?
(2) Is it only the oldest child who can be the next-of-kin, and apply for the death certificate ?
(3) Suppose it was my grandfather who died in 1991. He had no spouse and two living children at the time of his death. My father is now deceased. His sister, my aunt, had no children and is currently in a vegetative state in a nursing home. The BDM website states that I need to get a letter of Authority, giving permission from the next-of-kin for me to apply to obtain a copy of the death certificate. Including my aunt's address, phone number, and signature. And also 3 pieces of ID, which she may not have.
I don't think she has a phone, and is probably incapable of signing anything.
(4) What happens when, at the time of the person's death, the death certificate lists none, or only one of, the deceased person's children, although there was more than one ?
(5) What happens when the father died in 1991, and his wife died in 1993, overseas, and has no Australian death certificate ?
These seem to be highly plausible scenarios.
When I married my current husband, a foreign citizen, the rigmarole was absurd. The foreign government demanded documentary proof that I had never been married in New South Wales. The fact that I had married my first husband in Melbourne did not seem to have entered their minds.
So my question is, how "practical" or alternatively "bloody-minded" is the NSW BDM department concerning death certificates in these sort of cases.
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Just to be clear, the situation is indeed for one of my own grandparents, and not the unrelated situation I am currently looking into for a friend.
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Do you require proof of the NSW death for a legal purpose, if so your legal representative should provide you with their expert advice.on NSW statute law re that matter. If you jusr want 'proof' for family history purposes, try the ryerson index for death/funeral annoucement mentions, which would lead to interment details.
Nominating a next of kin .... one does not have to nominate a spouse as one's nok nor is the eldest child automatically the nok.
A dc issued by NSWBDM for a death in 2014 has me as informant, names the deceased's spouses and names the chikdren of those marriages. It also notes my relationship to the deceased and my full residential address. There is no mention of the words 'next of kin' on the certificate. The deceased was my cousin. I have been informant on several OCcasions.
Re NSW BDM .... you shoulld ask them those questions and if you are not satisfied with their response, take it further ....
Responding after speaking on phone with my ollder rellie, a retired NSWBDM Officer
JM
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Thanks for that.
If there isn't a "next-of-kin" referred to on the certificate, it's a bit curious that their website specifically mentions "if you are the next-of-kin named" on the certificate.
They don't seem to have an email address. I might call them and ask them.
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:)
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/
scroll down, http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/contact-us/contact-us.aspx
and feedback http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/contact-us/feedback.aspx
and access to info http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/about-us/access-to-information.aspx
and info and privacy commission NSW http://www.ipc.nsw.gov.au/
JM
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This application form can only be used if the death occurred in NSW. If you are the next-of-kin named on the death certificate i.e. spouse ( married, defacto, same sex defacto ) , parent, or child of the deceased, the death certificate can be issued to you. If you are a relative not listed on the certificate, the certificate can be issued to you if the deceased HAD ( my emphasis ) no living spouse, children or parents.
This seems to me, somewhat ambiguous and also somewhat unworkable.
I read that to mean that if you are named on the certificate as a 'next of kin' relative, you are eligible to apply for the cert. I think you may be considering the expression 'next of kin' in a very limited way ... I think the NSW BDM may be referring to family member/s named on the certificate. There are others named on the document ... funeral director for example, medico certifying cause/causes of death/if a post mortem, then the name of the person conducting that examination ....
ADD, yes, any family member named on the cert can apply, each is as entitled as the other. (a return phone call just received :D ).
ADD, but unlikely you would be entitled to step-mum's d.c. Legal Eagles sort these issues out all the time (further phone call :D ).
JM
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If yours is situation #3, would it be worth being cheeky and applying with a letter of explanation about your Aunt's condition? A lot of people must lose contact with relatives (or have a situation similar to the one with your Aunt) and wish to apply for certificates. You would hope for a little leeway and common sense. :-\
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And if you do as Ruskie suggests, you may be wise to get a letter from your Aunt's nursing home / doctor to the effect that she is physically / mentally unable to provide anything written.
Dawn M
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:)
RE 3.
Aunt ie.... lliving sister of your deceased grandparent ... she would NOT be named and identified as such on NSWBDM register unless she was the informant.. Why would you need her permission to seek your grand-Dad's official registration.... More than one person can apply for certified copy of the registrar's recorrds.. why do you need 1991 cert ... use cemetery record or similar
Agh ADD... aunt ... as in your DAD's sister .... as you are named on your Dad's dc then why would Aunt need to apply for you? .
ADD Why do you need grandather's cert ... :-\
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(1) My father died in 1991, less than 30 years ago. At the time, he was married to his second wife, who died in 1995. I am the only child named on his death certificate. In 1991, his second wife was his next-of-kin, not me.
How many hoops to do I have to jump through to prove she is dead, and therefore I am the next-of-kin? Bearing in mind, I am not her next-of-kin, because she has or had a son from her first marriage, who I only met once, don't know his middle name, may or may not be still living, had a very common surname and lived in another state. Anyway, the point is that I probably don't have legal standing to apply for my step-mother's death certificate either, so how can I legally prove that she is dead then ?
(2) Is it only the oldest child who can be the next-of-kin, and apply for the death certificate ?
(3) Suppose it was my grandfather who died in 1991. He had no spouse and two living children at the time of his death. My father is now deceased. His sister, my aunt, had no children and is currently in a vegetative state in a nursing home. The BDM website states that I need to get a letter of Authority, giving permission from the next-of-kin for me to apply to obtain a copy of the death certificate. Including my aunt's address, phone number, and signature. And also 3 pieces of ID, which she may not have.
I don't think she has a phone, and is probably incapable of signing anything.
(4) What happens when, at the time of the person's death, the death certificate lists none, or only one of, the deceased person's children, although there was more than one ?
(5) What happens when the father died in 1991, and his wife died in 1993, overseas, and has no Australian death certificate ?
These seem to be highly plausible scenarios.
When I married my current husband, a foreign citizen, the rigmarole was absurd. The foreign government demanded documentary proof that I had never been married in New South Wales. The fact that I had married my first husband in Melbourne did not seem to have entered their minds.
So my question is, how "practical" or alternatively "bloody-minded" is the NSW BDM department concerning death certificates in these sort of cases.
JM
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I am in South Australia. I had problems getting a copy of my mother's Death Certificate (I did have a photocopy of it that I had obtained via the Registrar - long story) I am an only child and my father remarried. I ended up taking in my birth and marriage certificate and was granted permission to get my mum's death certificate.
I then had to get my Nanna and Aunt's death certificates. My grandparents raised me (as my mum died when I was 6 weeks old). For reasons unknown I was not named as the person who had identified Registrar of Death (I was not next of kin as my grandfather had been alive, plus her two daughters). Although Nanna was my legal guardian there was no paperwork I could find. They ended up taking the fact that all of the expenses for her funeral and burial were addressed to me as well as a Coroners letter.
My Aunt had no children and although her younger sister was still alive I had been responsible for her but unfortunately due to her mental illness did not have Power of Attorney. Again, because I had letters from the Nursing Home, Funeral Director etc I was able to obtain a copy of her death certificate.
Although I physically have the Deed for my Mother's burial plot I have no rights for it. My father (who doesn't speak to me is her next of kin) When he dies unless he leaves the Deed to me in his will (which he won't and quite frankly I don't think it would be something he would even think about after almost 60 years) it will revert to either my stepmother OR my half brother if my step mother pre deceases my father! So despite the fact that I am my mothers only child under current SA law I have no rights. Thankfully, a few years ago the Cemetery were quite happy to take large amounts of money from me to have the lease on the grave extended.
Good luck! Just get as much documentation to prove who you are and your relationships as you can and good luck. If you can go in there in person it will be all the better.
Deanne
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I think backing up your application with as much proof of your relationship as possible with the appropriate certificates is an excellent idea. :)
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Did your father make a will? I'm not up to date on NSW laws but in Qld it is relatively easy to access wills of recently deceased people if the will went to probate. The Qld probate records contain a copy of the death certificate & NSW ones probably do as well (If a copy rather than a certified copy is sufficient for your needs)
Otherwise as the daughter of the deceased I would think you are entitled to a copy of his death certificate and you should simply apply.
Having reread your original statement - do you want a certificate or are you simply arguing about the words/procedure of the BDM registry? Every state is similar. You have to jump a few hoops to get copies of recent certificates.
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Hi All,
I have recently come across an alarming situation in Queensland where a defacto wife of 26 years was not able to access a death certificate because the eldest son of the husband's first marriage was declared next of kin and the DC went to him. I was under the mistaken impression that a defacto wife had ALL the rights of a legal wife but that apparently is not the case.
Andcarred
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WoW...
Here's the online link for Qld bdm certs that are not yet on open access...
https://www.qld.gov.au/law/births-deaths-marriages-and-divorces/birth-death-and-marriage-certificates/death-certificates/fill-in-a-death-certificate-application-form# If you scroll down through that online form to the heading 'View the access policy to check" there's even an option which reads:
Another relationship
The registrar can make decisions on any unusual cases that may not be detailed in the policy above.
I expect that de facto relationship should/would usually be covered by the following option :
Relationship to the person whose death certificate you are applying for
I’m their spouse (husband, wife, civil partner)
You need to provide your proof of ID documents.
Perhaps some understanding person could contact the funeral director directly and in a gentle way ask for them to provide copy to be sent to his wife of 26 years standing for her benefit. I am sure funeral directors have handled requests like that on many an occasion.
JM