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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Wiltshire => Topic started by: ktk8 on Thursday 12 July 18 00:51 BST (UK)
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Hi, I'm hoping someone here may know more about St Paul's Road in Fisherton Anger, or know where I might find more information.
I am looking at a birth certificate from 1895 which gives the mother's address as 2 Pleasant Terrace, St Paul's Road, Salisbury. The birth in question is rather mysterious, as the mother was not local, and I'm hoping it may hold some clues to a secret liaison!
There seem to be only a small number of properties in St Paul's Road on the 1891 census, and rather more by 1901, so I presume there was a lot of building work there in the interim. Many of the houses on the 1901 census have fancy names, but I can't find reference to a Pleasant Terrace.
I wonder if anyone here might have some inside knowledge of properties on this road, or know where I can find further information, in the hope of discovering which property 2 Pleasant Terraces became by 1901.
Does anyone know if there any electoral registers for this area available, and if so, how I might access them?
Many thanks :)
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Don't know the road I'm afraid but if the mother was not local could she have gone to a relative to have the baby or a lodging house of some kind - where was she from?
Am guessing there is no father on the birth. Did she and the baby stay in that area or go back to wherever she came from?
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Hi, Thanks for your reply.
The mother's husband is named on the birth certificate, but it is doubtful he is the biological father. I have an idea of who the real father might be, based on another later child. This man may have local family connections, I just haven't managed to prove them yet. I'm wary of giving too much information regarding names, as I don't want to offend any of his legitimate family.
The mother came from London, but appears to have spent a fair period of time in Salisbury, as her baby was baptized at Fisherton Anger, and was also buried there several months later, having died at Salisbury Hospital. The baby's birth was registered in Bournemouth, at an address which I presume to be a boarding house, but the reasons for her travelling to Bournemouth are equally mysterious.
I have carried out quite a lot of digging into possible local connections with relatives, etc. and have not come up with any answers, which is why I thought I'd now try with the address itself and work from there...
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Oh I see. Quite understand you not wanting to name names.
Good luck with finding more about the address :)
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This is an 1881 Town Plan showing St.Paul's Road - cannot spot Pleasant Terrace.But could have been built post 1881
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/413804/130265/13/10037
(may need to click on 1881 map to generate?)
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The whole of the north side of St Paul's Road is now the Salisbury Ring Road (dual carriageway).
Google Streetview here at the start of what's left of the dwellings. (The ring road is on the right and there are no properties on that side).
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.0733316,-1.8007275,3a,75y,218.04h,93.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPN0nA3w1VNtbxJy03wWksA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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Can you give the address the child was born at in Bournemouth, it may give a clue as to what type of property the Salisbury address may have been.
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Thank you all for your kind replies :)
Interesting to look at the maps. From the Old Maps site, it appears most of the properties in St Paul's Road seems to have been built between 1887 and 1901, and it certainly gives a fuller impression of the area before the ring road was built. Even though the properties on the north side are now gone, the earlier maps indicate they had a similar footprint to those that are still standing and visible on google maps, so were presumably similar terraced houses of the period. It strikes me how close this area is to the train station, if indeed that was the way people would've travelled from London to Salisbury back then.
The child was born at 2 St Michael's Round, St Michael's Road, Bournemouth. I have had similar difficulties trying to identify this exact property, when looking at the 1891 and 1901 census data.
The mother returned to 2 St Michael's Round a year later in 1896 to give birth to another child, although this time she gives a home address in London. This was just a few months after the death of the first child in Fisherton Anger.
The story continues to become more mysterious, as the second child born in Bournemouth was put into foster care in Yeovil! By 1901, the mother is back in London, so I am guessing she left St Paul's Road sometime shortly after the death of the first child.
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My late mother-in-law’s mother was living in a home for fallen women when MIL was born, although the birth did not take place there. I wondered if yours was a similar situation with the address in St. Michael's Rd being one of the numerous homes in Bournemouth, but I cannot find anything to indicate it was.
It is possible a Street Directory may show the type of property, you could try the Heritage Zone at Bournemouth Library, or the Dorset History Centre.
You may also want to try Salisbury Reference Library or the Wiltshire and Swindon Archives for the Salisbury address.
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Fisherton Anger had a Prison somewhere in the St Pauls Road area.
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On the 1881 Town Plan can be seen "St. Paul's Home" - wondered what kind of "home" this might be?
It was a charity that provided homes for unmarried (spinster or widow) gentlewomen over the age of fifty and income of over £25 pa. So ruled out as a "home" for unmarried mothers.
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Yes,your reply sounds more promising,working in the dark here with no name to search the census with or known status of the person concerned. Person was employed at St Pauls Home maybe.Have never heard of this Home though.
From my memory,prior to the clearance for the road widening,all the St Pauls Rd properties especially on the left hand side coming from Wilton Rd/Devizes Rd junction were all small red brick terrace houses [some back to back] as so many were in parts of Salisbury right up to the early 1960s.
Mentioned the Gaol as its all part of the early picture of the area.
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There seems to be only child who matches
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working in the dark here with no name to search the census with or known status of the person concerned.
In order not to offend anyone, I have now removed the names.
Having had a quick look at the electoral registers for Fisherton Anger this morning, I am not too hopeful that they will help.
John
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Tricky without mentioning names but did the mother marry in 1892 and have a son prior to the 2 children we are talking about?
The baptism for the child in 1895 names husband as the father.
Can you say why there is doubt he was the father?
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Something odd - there are 2 baptisms in 1895 November 3 and November 7 for different children in different places.
Have I got that right. Daughter in Wiltshire and son in London.
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Yes,You appear to be correct.
Could twins be the answer, daughter baptised before death Fisherton Anger.
Son baptised 3 Nov 1895 Hatcham Surrey.
Same parents,father Pawnbroker.
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I think the son was born earlier (1892) as he is older on census but why baptise them both in different places within days of each other.
Did the same 2 people baptise them or just give those names. I can see why there is a mystery here.
Wondering if the parents actually were the same or it was to disguise something.
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Its certainly more than odd.
1901 Shows family to be sustaining a good living for the times,could well afford to travel, by train would imagine. This needs some in depth investigation.
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Don't forget the boy in Yeovil in 1901!
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Ha! I'm very impressed by everyone's ingenuity in seeking out all this evidence. I have spent an enormous amount of time researching this family, so do have all the census data, certificates, and much other evidence. I have spent even more time head-scratching!!
I realise it would obviously make more sense to talk about Clarissa Chilvers openly. However, I would prefer to keep any referral to the name of the potential biological father quiet. Thank you :)
...but did the mother marry in 1892 and have a son prior to the 2 children we are talking about?
The baptism for the child in 1895 names husband as the father.
Can you say why there is doubt he was the father?
Yes, married in 1892, first son born later that year. I have no reason to doubt his parentage.
I descend from Clarissa's later daughter, born in 1902. A combination of family tittle-tattle and DNA evidence has pointed me in the direction of her biological father (although she is officially the daughter of Clarissa and her husband.)
All told, there seems to be a serious amount of cover-up involved. I have no evidence that Clarissa's husband ever left London. She was back with him in 1901, but later ran away with another man. On the 1911 census, her (estranged) husband states they had two children. Hmm, I've counted four so far!
I think the son was born earlier (1892) as he is older on census but why baptise them both in different places within days of each other.
Did the same 2 people baptise them or just give those names. I can see why there is a mystery here.
Wondering if the parents actually were the same or it was to disguise something.
The two baptisms within 3 days are indeed bizarre. When the second child is baptized in Fisherton Anger, she is about 7 months old, and she dies less than a month later in Salisbury Hospital from tubercular meningitis. I wonder if she was already ill, and the baptisms were made in fear. The son's baptism in London takes place on the same day as the child of his landlord, so it could just be an odd coincidence. I presume both parents wouldn't have had to be at the baptism?
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Don't forget the boy in Yeovil in 1901!
No, indeed! Births in Bournemouth, living in Salisbury, foster care in Yeovil, it all smacks of an almighty cover-up.
Its certainly more than odd.
1901 Shows family to be sustaining a good living for the times,could well afford to travel, by train would imagine. This needs some in depth investigation.
Certainly in 1901, back with her husband, times seem to be ok. I do wonder how she managed to afford to live in Salisbury, possibly with her eldest son in tow, travel to and pay for lodgings in Bournemouth around the time of the births, possible costs from Salisbury hospital when her child died, then presumably paying for foster care in Yeovil.
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Having had a quick look at the electoral registers for Fisherton Anger this morning, I am not too hopeful that they will help.
John
Hi John, Thank you for looking! I had no idea whether electoral registers might exist for the area, I'd be interested to hear more...
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From my memory,prior to the clearance for the road widening,all the St Pauls Rd properties especially on the left hand side coming from Wilton Rd/Devizes Rd junction were all small red brick terrace houses [some back to back] as so many were in parts of Salisbury right up to the early 1960s.
Mentioned the Gaol as its all part of the early picture of the area.
This is interesting, thank you! I presume that this was a fairly poor area, although having said this, the houses would've been fairly newly built at the time.
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Sorry about revealing the name, I wouldn't have named Mr X even if I knew who he was (which I don't).
The electoral registers are on findmypast. But I didn't see many references to that road. But did I look at all of it? Not sure. Anyway, the names are listed alphabetically, rather than by street.
John
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1861 Conveyance of Lands from the Hayter Trustees to Charles Drew a Salisbury Solicitor,area bounded by Gas Lane ,Meadow Rd and St Pauls Road,,,by 1879 had been built with terraces of small houses.
Very intrigued to know who the father was of these children [as yet have no idea]
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Of course Edward V11 comes to mind he used to visit the Old Mill in Harnham Meadows regularly.
Just a wild quess.
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Of course Edward V11 comes to mind he used to visit the Old Mill in Harnham Meadows regularly.
Just a wild quess.
;D That's the one. Stop the search!
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Sorry about revealing the name, I wouldn't have named Mr X even if I knew who he was (which I don't).
The electoral registers are on findmypast. But I didn't see many references to that road. But did I look at all of it? Not sure. Anyway, the names are listed alphabetically, rather than by street.
John
Many thanks, I had no idea the electoral registers were there and available.
I've had a look at these, and none of the names popped out at me. However, I note with great interest a man called Edward Lovibond, who has qualifying property in Fisherton Street and Lewis' Court. His home address is 169 Greenwich Road, Greenwich. Hmm...
Clarissa's home address on the registration of birth of the second child born in Bournemouth was 105 Greenwich Road.
It's enough to get my nose twitching!
What I can tell you is that I have just found a newspaper article that shows that the man I think was the father of child number 4 knew Mr Lovibond. Coincidences? Perhaps.
I wonder if anyone has heard of Lewis' Court?
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1871 Census - ref RG10 Piece 1951 Folio 67 Page 25
"Lewis's Court" falls between 118 and 122 Fisherton Street
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1880/81 Town Plan
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/413949/130165/13/100371
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This is fascinating with or without the name of Mr X :-X
You say "estranged husband" in 1911 - where was Clarissa?
I see a family tree has another marriage for her in 1906 and more children but can't find.
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This is fascinating with or without the name of Mr X :-X
You say "estranged husband" in 1911 - where was Clarissa?
I see a family tree has another marriage for her in 1906 and more children but can't find.
Clarissa ran away to Hastings with another man somewhere around 1906, where they had three children, and kept a boarding house. They were both still married to their previous spouses, but lived as husband and wife. She can be found on the 1911 census as Clara Tompsett, who supposedly has four children with her "husband", although the children are nowhere to be seen on the census (quite probably deliberately).
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1871 Census - ref RG10 Piece 1951 Folio 67 Page 25
"Lewis's Court" falls between 118 and 122 Fisherton Street
Ooh, thank you for this!
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She can be found on the 1911 census as Clara Tompsett, who supposedly has four children with her "husband", although the children are nowhere to be seen on the census (quite probably deliberately).
Goodness :o I can find 3 and there is a possible 4th with the surname spelt slightly differently (Tomsett) but it's a different district and same quarter as one of the other births.
However if we bear in mind the previous baptisms anything is possible! Mothers name is the same as the others but could of course be a different couple.
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Is there an accurate date of birth for Clarissa Elizabeth Sutton please.
3rd Qtr 1871 Mile End Old Town 1c page 505.
Is that correct.
There appears to be a second marriage in Sussex on several online trees.
What about her date of death,promise will not reveal any names for any info I may unearth.
As regards Salisbury Lewis House, Fisherton Street,was probably one of the very many pubs or brothels in the city.Numbers given 118/122 are more or less under the railway bridge,left hand side coming from station,and long gone by 1939.There was a serious railway accident early 1900s when the London train came off the rails and engine hung over into the street at that very spot.
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The child was born at 2 St Michael's Round, St Michael's Road, Bournemouth. I have had similar difficulties trying to identify this exact property, when looking at the 1891 and 1901 census data.
The mother returned to 2 St Michael's Round a year later in 1896 to give birth to another child.
Did you find 2, St. Michael's Round on the 1891 map?
Census ref RG12 Piece 901 Folio 134 Page 56
Western Gazette, 2 March 1897
Advert
Girl (strong) wanted, age about 16 - Apply Mrs Grant, 2 St. Michael's Round, Purbeck Road, Bournemouth
The family in 1901
RG13 Piece 1040 Folio 89 Page 37
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/408262/90992
Should deliver modern map of Purbeck Road (may need zoom (-) to display). Check 1890 and 1898 old maps to see development.
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Can't (or shouldn't) be a second marriage as husband was still alive.
There is a London school admissions register 1878 - and several private trees - with her date of birth 29 May 1871 although the school record has Suttons.
Under is a Sarah Hannah Suttons age 4 so we could cross check there to see if that was her sister *
* yes that seems to be right. 1881 Clarissa E is 9 and Sarah H is 7.
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Thanks Millipede,Did just wonder if the poster had obtained her Birth Certificate.
Large parcels of Salisbury land and properties were either owned by the Diocese,local landed estates,ie Earls of Radnor,and Pembroke.or the War Department.Inevitable that Lewis Court Fisherton Street is a house of ill repute,or hostelry,but perhaps someone can prove me wrong.
There are at least 5 trees on the usual large paid for site,which have entered a second marriage in Sussex for Clarissa Elizabeth,surnames Sutton and Chilvers,wonder just how many children she had at age over 40 years,need accurate date of birth. [Do not pay so unable to look at the exact detail in these trees.]
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I checked Wiltshire Archives online catalogue for "Lewis Court". 1 hit - 3 bundles of papers covering New Park Street and Lewis Court.
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She can be found on the 1911 census as Clara Tompsett, who supposedly has four children with her "husband", although the children are nowhere to be seen on the census (quite probably deliberately).
Goodness :o I can find 3 and there is a possible 4th with the surname spelt slightly differently (Tomsett) but it's a different district and same quarter as one of the other births.
However if we bear in mind the previous baptisms anything is possible! Mothers name is the same as the others but could of course be a different couple.
Indeed, anything is possible!
As far as I am aware, Clarissa and Mr Tompsett had three children in Hastings. I presume the fourth child referred to on the 1911 census was her child from her previous relationship, my ancestor, who I know lived in Hastings with them.
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Can't (or shouldn't) be a second marriage as husband was still alive.
Is there an accurate date of birth for Clarissa Elizabeth Sutton please.
3rd Qtr 1871 Mile End Old Town 1c page 505.
Is that correct.
There appears to be a second marriage in Sussex on several online trees.
What about her date of death,promise will not reveal any names for any info I may unearth.
Ok, so as far as we are aware, Clarissa and Mr Tompsett never officially married. Her husband and his wife were still alive at the time. The children's births were all registered with Tompsett as the father, presumably to protect them.
Clarissa later kicked Tompsett out, probably somewhere around 1912. His wife died in 1913, and he married another woman in 1914!
Clarissa continued to use the surnames Tompsett and Chilvers throughout her life. She moved the family back to London after Tompsett left, and died there in 1935, registered and buried under the name Tompsett.
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Clarissa's date of birth: 29 May 1871
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As regards Salisbury Lewis House, Fisherton Street,was probably one of the very many pubs or brothels in the city.Numbers given 118/122 are more or less under the railway bridge,left hand side coming from station,and long gone by 1939.There was a serious railway accident early 1900s when the London train came off the rails and engine hung over into the street at that very spot.
Large parcels of Salisbury land and properties were either owned by the Diocese,local landed estates,ie Earls of Radnor,and Pembroke.or the War Department.Inevitable that Lewis Court Fisherton Street is a house of ill repute,or hostelry,but perhaps someone can prove me wrong.
I checked Wiltshire Archives online catalogue for "Lewis Court". 1 hit - 3 bundles of papers covering New Park Street and Lewis Court.
Thank you all for your kind investigations :)
I do hope we are not into the realm of brothels!!
I had a bit of a dig into Mr Edward Lovibond last night, it seems that the Lovibond family were brewers in Wiltshire and Greenwich. Indeed, Lovibonds brewery still exists today. I am guessing that Lewis Court might have been a hostelry.
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Going back to your original question- my mum is 95 born and bred in Salisbury. She remembers a Prospect Terrace in St Pauls Road . Had a look on FindMyPast and it is there in 1901 just wondering if it should be Prospect rather than Pleasant. I don't have a subscription but perhaps someone could look it up just to see who was living there - just a long shot.
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LMFAO,Thanks for that. Unable to find it 1901 or 1911,but someone else might.
The address 1939,turns out to be off Devizes Rd approx half way up on left hand side.
Quite a way up from St Pauls Road
One married lady born 1899 living alone with an unknown child.
Unable to post details ,its against RootsChat policy.
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She remembers a Prospect Terrace in St Pauls Road .
I spotted a "Prospect Terrace, St. Paul's Road" in several newspaper advertisements at the turn of the 19th Century and wondered if "2 Pleasant Terrace" on the birth certificate was badly written and was being misread - and should be read as "2 Prospect Terrace".
Yet to find it on a map of the period - haven't checked the census.
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Prospect Terrace
1901 Census - reference RG13 Piece 1952 Folio 78 Page 2
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The 1939 Register has maps [scroll down,]1888 Ordinance Survey also shown for the same image.
Marker shows where property situated.As you may may gathered I know Salisbury well.
2 Prospect Terrace is within easy reach of St Pauls Rd,St Pauls being the area could have been included in original address.
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I spotted a "Prospect Terrace, St. Paul's Road" in several newspaper advertisements at the turn of the 19th Century and wondered if "2 Pleasant Terrace" on the birth certificate was badly written and was being misread - and should be read as "2 Prospect Terrace".
I would say the birth certificate does clearly say "2 Pleasant Terrace". Would it be okay to scan in just this part of the birth certificate on here?
I wonder whether the address may have been miswritten by the registrar, or are the records transcribed?? I can't see Clarissa would have gained anything by knowingly giving an incorrect address at this point.
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Going back to your original question- my mum is 95 born and bred in Salisbury. She remembers a Prospect Terrace in St Pauls Road . Had a look on FindMyPast and it is there in 1901 just wondering if it should be Prospect rather than Pleasant. I don't have a subscription but perhaps someone could look it up just to see who was living there - just a long shot.
Please thank your mum for me!
2 Prospect Terraces has Albert & Caroline Elizabeth Smith and their daughter. Unfortunately the names ring no bells with me.
LMFAO,Thanks for that. Unable to find it 1901 or 1911,but someone else might.
The address 1939,turns out to be off Devizes Rd approx half way up on left hand side.
Quite a way up from St Pauls Road
Prospect Terrace on the 1901 census has numbers 1-10. Mind you, even some of them have other names.
I can't find a Prospect Terrace on the 1911 census, although St Paul's Road seems to start at No. 9, so I'm probably missing something...
I can see a Prospect Place, Devizes Road on the 1939 register. Is that the one you mean?
Thank you all for keeping looking at this, I do appreciate all your help :)
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I spotted a "Prospect Terrace, St. Paul's Road" in several newspaper advertisements at the turn of the 19th Century...
Ah, an interesting thought for a line of enquiry! I just discovered Mr Albert Smith of 2 Prospect Terrace advertising that he has commenced his tailoring business at this address in 1899, so too late.
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Finally found a moment to give an update...
In the absence of being able to pin down Pleasant Terrace, it's occurred to me that there might be records at Salisbury Hospital, where Clarissa's second child died, which might yield more information. I believe these are at the Wiltshire and Swindon History Centre, but if anyone has any experience of these, I would be interested to know.
After some painstaking cross-referencing of various census years, and mapping addresses, I have had more luck with the address in Bournemouth:
2 St Michael's Round later became 3 Purbeck Road, when the whole street was re-numbered.
Western Gazette, 2 March 1897
Advert
Girl (strong) wanted, age about 16 - Apply Mrs Grant, 2 St. Michael's Round, Purbeck Road, Bournemouth
The family in 1901
RG13 Piece 1040 Folio 89 Page 37
Great find, thank you for this! It seems Mr & Mrs Grant lived at this property for a good number of years, and would've been present during the period when Clarissa stayed there. I was amused by her specifying a strong girl, but perhaps it's because he was a baker.
I note that Mr Grant is the only person on the electoral register for this address over the years. Perhaps they rented out rooms, or perhaps it was the responsibility of a landlord. Certainly, Clarissa must've been happy to return here for the second birth.
My late mother-in-law’s mother was living in a home for fallen women when MIL was born, although the birth did not take place there. I wondered if yours was a similar situation with the address in St. Michael's Rd being one of the numerous homes in Bournemouth, but I cannot find anything to indicate it was.
Thank you, Jebber. I've been spending some time considering what you had to say. There is nothing to indicate that it was a specific place for expectant women, judging by the other tenants in the property in 1891 and 1901. However, I can't imagine many boarding houses would take in women in her situation, and I wonder if there was a covert way this was advertised. Clarissa must've stayed here some weeks, as neither of the births were registered until about a month afterwards. I wonder if she had a monthly nurse staying with her - after all, I can't see how she could've afforded her lifestyle by herself, especially if she had her young son in tow too, and to have been by herself in a strange town, albeit away from prying eyes, would've been a tough ask.
I can better understand her journeys to Bournemouth. The area at that time seems filled with incomers, and it would be easier to tell whatsoever story, and no-one to be any the wiser.
However, I am still mystified as to her extended sojourn in Salisbury. I have found no connections in her family to Salisbury (or indeed Bournemouth, or Yeovil), and she had plenty of family back in London. Hence why I have imagined it was at the bidding of Mr X. I wonder if anyone knows if there were particular reasons drawing people to Salisbury during this period?
Thanks again to everyone for all your kind help with this :)
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Regarding 3 Purbeck Road West Cliff Borough Christchurch,residence of Hiram James Grant and wife Emma nee Stone.
This property appears to be a boarding house also 1920- 1931.Electoral Rolls.
In same ownership of Hiram J Grant.
Emma died 1925 Bournemouth age 61.
Hiram death 1934 Poole age 71. Youngest child Victoria May Grant married a John E Soffe,both deceased
their son David born 1937 also deceased.
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You might wish to contact the Salisbury Reference library ref Pleasant Terrace.
They should have an 1897
Directory for Salisbury (I have perused it in the past) and possibly maps for the area around that time that may assist you.
Kanskar