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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: WillowG on Sunday 05 August 18 02:40 BST (UK)
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Hi!
I am coming here because I have received such great help in the past :)
The reason is that I need help in deciphering the will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset (1477-1530).
t is a bit difficult to find as it is transcribed thusly:
Name: Thomas Margneys
Probate Date: 18 Nov 1531
PROB 11/24: Thower (1531-1533)
(My first searches turned up nothing. Then I found his father's will. His father had the same name and the same title, so I am being very specific here in case somebody wants to take a look.)
This Thomas Grey, the second Marquess, was the grandfather of the not unknown Lady Jane Grey, the nine days Queen.
The reason I want to translate it is that there is much confusion as to his children.
In the interest of full disclosure, this will has been translated before, but it appears to be in a rather obscure edition from the 1800s. Furthermore, I would like a translation that I know would be trustworthy. No offence to the original translator, but several documents relating to the Grey family produced in the 1800s have recently been revealed to be forgeries.
Thank you so much in advance anyone who wishes to try :)
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Lots of the usual preamble Willow.
In the name of god amen The seconde
daye of June in the yere of our Lorde god y (t) v(c) xxx I Thomas Marques dorc(hester) hole of
body and of good mynde perfctly knowinge that there is nothing ^more^ certeyne to me then death
and nothinge more uncerteyne then the houre and tyme therof I dreadinge the said tyme
and wold not that I sholde dye intestate, nor that eny striffe variannce or debate sholde
growe or arise betwene eny maner of personnes for any of my manours landes, rentis and
other my movable goodes that I shulde Leve in this worlde behinde me in eschewing of the
same , I ordeyne and make this my present testament and last will in manour and formme
insuynge: FIRST I bequethe my soule to almyghty god, and to his mother saint marye
and to all the holy company of hevyn And my body to be buryed in the churche of Astleye
in the countye of warwicke nygh unto my father whose soule god pardon if I dye within
the realme of Ingland the costes and charges therof I remytt to the discrescion of myne
executours so that no pompe nor solempnite be had or used about the same, And myne execu-
tours of this my last will to gyve to preestis and clerks that shall come thither the daye
of my buriall as they shall thinke convenient, And to deale in almes to pore folke the said
day and tyme after their discrescions, ALLSO I will that my executours shall cause iij
honest prestis and of good conversacion to their knowledge to singe and praye at Asteley
aforsaid for my soule my father and mother soules and all christen soulis by the space of iij yeres
next after my deathe gyvinge to every one of them tenne marks by yere ALLSO I will that all
my debts be paid that I owe to any parsonne and Amends to be made to every pasone that I
have trespacyd or doon wronge unto if good profe be made thereof by the discrescion of myne
executours or the more parte of them ALLSO I will that all my householde ? have
In the margin at the side of the first clip, it gives his name as Thomas Margneys dor...
And underneath “Grey”
I’ve taken this ‘dor’ to mean ‘dorchester’. No doubt someone will put it right if not!
Also no doubt someone will know the superscript letters above the dates in the year at the top - it’s obviously 1 thousand, 5 hundred and 30, but I’m unsure of the letters above.
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In the margin at the side of the first clip, it gives his name as Thomas Margneys dor...
And underneath “Grey”
I’ve taken this ‘dor’ to mean ‘dorchester’.
Test(amentu)m d(omi)nj Thome
Marqueys dor(cestrie)
= The will of Lord Thomas, Marquis of Dorset
Also no doubt someone will know the superscript letters above the dates in the year at the top - it’s obviously 1 thousand, 5 hundred and 30, but I’m unsure of the letters above.
The date is contracted into a hybrid form of Roman numerals and Latin, reading ml vc xxxti. If spelt out in full, the words would be (anno) millesimo quingentesimo tricesimo = ‘the one thousand five hundred and thirtieth (year)’.
Also, at the end of the extract:
... my housholde s(er)v(a)nt(es) have ...
ADDED - 'Dorchester' above now corrected to 'Dorset'.
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Bookbox and goldie61 coming to my rescue again! :)
Thank you so much! Your help really is invaluable.
Lots of the usual preamble Willow.
Yes, I almost suspected as much, lololol! They were fond of their introductions, weren't they? :)
But it is very interesting nonetheless, because it already differs sligthly and at least in one instance significantly from the part of the other translation that I have seen summarised (which of course contained none of the parts I was interested in ::) But that is turning out to be a good thing, actually, compared to the clearly superior quality of this translation! :) :D :) )
Alright, next part!
(And thank you so much again! :) )
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Snippet 3:
...their full wagys to the day of my deceas And for their time and goodservice that they have doon
to me afore this tyme I will that every of them ^have^ one hole yeres wagis for his and their rewardes
And allso meate and drinke convenyient for one halfe yere in my house next after my deceas so
that they may have reasonable tyme to provide them selfe sermices Allso I will that John Nutting
have the house w(i)t(h) thappurten(a)nces that he now ^dwelleth^ in ingrowby in the countie of Leiceter and lxvj s
viijd yerely duringe his liff And that John Dabscourte shalhave the same office And yerelye
ffee that he now hathe and occupyeth by myn agrement for terme of his lyff And also I will
that Robert Vincent hath suche offices and ffees as he now hathe of myn for terme of his
lif I will also that William Hill of Sheldon have in like maner suche officies and fees as he
now hathe of myn for terme of his Lyff Allso I will that Thomas Cornewall have the office
of the bayly wike of stebbinge in the coumtie of Essex and the office of the kepinge of the
parke there And the wagis of the ffees to them belonginge for the terme of his liff And I
will that Anthony Bogegood shalhave the office of the kepinge of wysshcombe in the countie...
NOTES:
In the fourth line, the word I have transcribed as sermices is probably meant to be services.
There are a few instances - eg sermices, coumtie - where the writer has gone for one more minim than required.
In the fifth line, read as ...^dwelleth^ in in growby in the countie of...
This is presumably Groby.
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Oh, thank you so much! :)
This is wonderful! He certainly was generous, wasn't he? :)
Yes, Groby would fit perfectly! Groby was an old stronghold of the family. His grandfather, who was the first husband of Elizabeth Woodville, later Queen of England, was Sir John Grey of Groby.
Our Thomas Grey himself was known as Baron Ferrers of Groby at the time of his marriage to Margaret Wotton, the mother of his children, in 1509 :) It would remain one of his lesser titles.
Thank you so much again! You would not believe how difficult it has been to cast any light upon this matter!
I am so grateful for all of your help :) You are so incredibly good at this!
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Snippet 4, from reply #3
... of Devonshire with all the wagys and fees to it belonging for terme of his lyffe And I will
that Thomas Seyton have such offyces and fees as he now hathe and occupyeth of myn for
terme of his lyfe And I will also that all and ev(er)y such parsonne and parson(n)s as have eny
office of Baylywike Stewardeshipp keparshipp of eny parke or park(es) or warren by myne
appointment or assignement and now doo occupye and excercise the same shall frome hensforthe
duringe their severall lyves have and exercise the said office and offices and ffees as every of them
as they doo now use and exercise the same in like maner and fourme with like wag(es) fees and
proffit(es) as they have or ought to have hadd in and for the exe^r^cisinge therof for term of their
lyves and every of them doing their dueties and sermic(es)* to my lady my wiff and the heires
of me accordinge as their officies dothe lye I will that Roberte Broke scolemaster to my ...
* = services, see horselydown’s note in reply #4
(Just a thought, but it would be surprising if the content of this will were to add anything much to the known pedigree for the family. You would expect any will proved in the PCC to already have been taken full account of in the standard published genealogies.)
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Thank you so much! :)
I apologise for posting the fifth and sixth snippet before the fourth was transcribed. I did not realise. I have so much respect for the wonderful work you do here.
Ordinarily, I would agree with you entirely. However, it would appear that many of those pedigrees are based on a wrongly transcribed version of this will.
I think I just found that transcription. At first I felt my stomach sinking that you had all gone to this trouble for me when it apparently was out there all along after all, it had just weirdly not shown up in any of my searches. But sometimes I really think that there is a guiding force helping us in our enquiries :)
Because when I read the actual transcription I realised that that transcription was not this transcription ... Furthermore, it appears to through some weird printing error to have been intermixed with another will (!), which would account for some of the weird errouneous information out there.
For instance, in one of summaries I had found, it said that the will had been written in 1521, even a date was given. As we can see from the above, this is of course entirely wrong. If the will had been written in 1521, or I had wrongly assumed it to be so, this would naturally have had great consequences for who would have been born when, been dead and married by when.
It struck me as odd, given that the wills from this period so rarely have dates and usually were written after the testator had become ill with their final illness.
Of course, there are exceptions, but something was just ... off.
Most sources seem to agree that Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquis of Dorset, and Margaret Wotton had four sons and four daughters, while some will allow them only the three daughters well-known to history.
The life of Henry Grey (husband to Frances Brandon and father of Jane Grey), eldest son, 3rd Marquis of Dorset and later Duke of Suffolk, of younger son Thomas and of fourth son John are fairly well-documented. Being implicated in high treason will do that for you :)
The fourth son is variously named Leonard or Edward, depending on where you look, and is referred to as being deceased before the failed attempt to put Lady Jane Grey on the throne.
Furthermore, there is agreement that Lady Elizabeth Grey, the wife Thomas Audley, 1st Baron Audley of Walden, Lady Katherine Grey, the wife of Henry FitzAlan, 19th Earl of Arundel, and Lady Anne Grey, the wife of Sir Henry Willoughby, were all three the daughters of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquis of Dorset and Margaret Wotton.
Their names are usually given in the above order, and I have seen Katherine referred to as the second daughter and Anne as the third.
However, all available evidence suggests that Elizabeth must be the youngest of those three.
She married in 1538. The groom had just been widowed a few short months earlier, so the marriage could not have been the result of a lengthy betrothal either.
Katherine was married at least by 1532, at which point she was styled as Lady Maltravers, and Anne was 'married by agreement dated 20 Sept. 1528'.
I have seen this described as a settlement elsewhere, but I think that was simply an extrapolation of the above information.
A settlement would imply cohabitation, but if the above contract was a betrothal agreement for instance instead, that would have implications for how old we can assume Anne to be at time.
A Mary is also usually listed. I did find her name in a book which seemed pretty reliable
The order they are listed in that book is Mary, Katherine, Elizabeth and Anne.
But even if we accept Mary as the eldest sister (she could have died as an infant, a child, or just young), Anne's place in the order still does not make sense in that she was married first, and she is still not the third sister as per the other source.
Elizabeth is usually always listed first of the sisters, but that could simply be because she is the most well-known in our day and age due to the fact that she was the subject of a lovely miniature by Holbein.
So I am searching for possible clues to birth order of the sisters, mainly :) But also to settle what name the second or third Grey son actually had.
I also had great hopes that Mary could have been a misreading Margaret, that the abbreviation 'Marg.' had been used in some document or letter or another. Handwritten, this could have been easily mistook for 'Mary'.
Because a 'Lady Margaret Grey' is well-documented. She first appears as a receiver of a New Year's gift from Henry VIII in 1534. She must have been quite an important lady, because she was also in the second chariot as one of the 29 female mourners in the procession at Queen Jane Seymour's funeral.
I am starting to wonder, however, if that Lady Margaret Grey is Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset. She would have been known under her married name in her own time, of course. Because in 1534, there would have been another Marchioness of Dorset, Lady Frances Brandon, Henry VIII own niece. Her husband would not ascend to the title of Duke of Suffolk making her a duchess until nearly two decades later, after the death of Frances's father and brothers.
I am not entirely satisfied with this theory either, however, as I do not understand why they would not simply be referred to as 'the old Marchioness' and 'the new/young Marchioness' as I have seen elsewhere in lists of New Year's gifts from the King.
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I apologise for posting the fifth and sixth snippet before the fourth was transcribed.
No problem.
Glancing ahead, I can see that at least four sons are named in the will – Henry, Thomas, Edward and John. A number of daughters are also referenced, but they may not all be individually named.
I’m clocking out now, but those in different time-zones may be able to help with further transcription.
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Snippet 5
sonne Henry to have xxli yerely out of suche landes and ten(emen)tis whereof myne executours
shall take the proffitts by this my will unto suche tyme as he be promotid to spirituall dignite
to the yerely valewe of xxx pounds.And likewise that doctor Johannes sysytsion have x li
yerely out of the said landes and tene(men)tis unto suche tyme as he be promotid to one spirituall
dignite to the yerely value of xxli AND allso I will that the said Robert Broke and the said doctor
Johannes shulde be furst promotid by my executours Allso I will that Edwarde Mountague
have yerely iiijli during his liff out of the Manour of Growbye and other landes and ten(emen)tis
in Growbye in the countie of Leic, And that william horewood have yerely out of the said Manor
landis and ten(emen)tis in Growbye lxvj s viij d for terme of his lyff every of them gevyinge their
counsell to my lady my wiff and to my heires And I will that Elizabeth Stafferton
wif to Cristofer Stafferton have yerely out of the said Manours landes and ten(emen)ts in Growby
aforeaid lxvjs viijd for terme of hir lyff, Allso I will that every of my sonnes Thomas
Someone might like to check the surname of the good doctor John on line 3 :)
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Snippet 6
Edwarde and John have yerely xli towards their fyndinge untill they come to the age of xv
yeres, And after their come to the age of xv yeres to have every of them yerely xxli towardes
their findinge untill they come to thage of xxi yeres and the same to be perceynd receyind and
taken of the revenues Issues and proffitts of all my manours landes and ten(emen)tis The landes
appointed to this my last will for my said wiff only except duringe hur lyff ALLSO I will that my
sonne Edwarde ymmediatly after he comythe to the age of xxj yeres have my Manours of Bede-
worthe and pakyngton with the appurtenences in the countie of Warwike, and all other my
landis tenements and hereditaments in bedworthe pakington or ellswhere within the said
countie of Warwicke percell or membies of the said Manours of Bedworthe & Pakyngton
and late in the Tenur occupacion or possession of Arthur lordlily to have and to hold to
the said Edwarde for terme of his lyfe naturall ALLSO I will that my sonne John
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Can you go back to line 6 of the very beginning of this will Willow?
You'll see if I have put
'any of my manours, landes rentis........'
I think this 'rentis' should be 'ten(emen)ts'.
Can you change your transcription please.
In my defence you do often get 'lands and rents', and also it was pretty late last night when I was doing this bit! :)
Now I've got more into this scribe's writing, I'd say it's 'tenements'.
They don't make it easy with all the contractions they used! :)
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In goldie's reply #9, referring to snippet #5, the phrase is:
...doctour Johannes fysyssion... [= physician]
I agree with goldie's reappraisal regarding tent(ement)is.
ADDED:
Just a couple of minor suggestions for snippet #6:
...the same to be perceyvid receyvid and taken... [= perceived, received]
...percell or membres of the... [= members]
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Well done with 'fysyssion' HD. All those 'f's and 's's look the same ! :)
Thanks.
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Thank you so much all of you!!! :) :) :)
This is so wonderful!
Thank you, Bookbox and goldie and horselydown86, that is amazing, thank you! :) You have just solved a mystery that has remained unsolved for 500 years, give or take :) :D :)
Of course I will correct it, goldie, thank you so much to you and Bookbox and horselydown86 again! I am completely in awe of how you do this! All I see when I look at these documents, desperately trying to understand, is squiggly line, squiggly line, bare discernable word, Ooh, I managed a complete sentence!!!, That must mean I have cracked the code! ... No.
Alright, then we definitely know that their sons were called Henry, Edward, Thomas and John. Since they are listed in that order and we know that Henry was the eldest and John the fourth, I think it is safe to assume that Edward was the second and Thomas was the third son! :)
Thank goodness the testator is going through this in an orderly fashion. It is precisely what I had been hoping for.
And how kind of him to secure so much help for his widow! And such a clever way of going about it, too.
(I thought I might include some links to what I have been talking about above, just in case it is of interest to anybody reading this thread :)
Elizabeth Grey, Lady Audley, by Hans Holbein the Younger
https://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/422292/elizabeth-lady-audley-1564 (https://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/422292/elizabeth-lady-audley-1564)
This is the book I was talking about: Testamenta Vetusta
https://archive.org/stream/testamentavetus01nicogoog#page/n273/search/Dorset (https://archive.org/stream/testamentavetus01nicogoog#page/n273/search/Dorset)
The incorrect version of our will is on pages 652-653. It was probably also supposed to be on pages 650-651, but those pages aren't there. Instead it is melded together with the previous will on pages 647-649. Of course this mistake might have occurred in scanning, but it really has lead to a host of strange mistakes! As I mentioned above, I read somewhere that will was written on a certain date in 1521. The 1521 is probably a misreading of the '21 Henry VIII' in the previous will, i.e. 21 years into Henry VIII's reign. 1509 + 21 = 1530.
And also that Thomas Grey first wanted to be buried wherever it was convenient, 'My body to be buried where it shall please God to dispose of it', that is to say wherever he happened to die (very uncommon among the higher classes), but that he then wanted to be dug up again and be buried next to his father(!). Now, reinterrals did happen, but usually at the initiative of the descendants precisely because the ancestor had not been put in the appropriate place in the first place. One could perhaps have understood it if he were about to die somewhere where it would have been very inconvenient to transport the body from, but it undeniably sounded a bit strange :)
Of course, printing and scanning mistakes can happen. However, the entire translation is riddled with grievous and inexplicable mistakes!
Even as little as I understand of the original document, even I can see that, especially with your kind help here.
The footnote actually states that they have a son Leonard, and omits any mention of an Edward, when, as we can we see, it is in actuality the completely opposite.
The next footnote states that Mary was his natural daughter, when nothing I have read so far nor the will itself indicate this. But we will get to that in good time, I guess :)
It is possible the author has conflated her with another Mary in another will earlier in the book, that of Elizabeth, Lady Scrope, in 1518. '[T]o Mary, daughter in base unto Thomas Grey, Maquess of Dorset, my bed that my Lord Marquess was wont to lie in.'
That Mary was probably the daughter of Thomas Grey, 1st Marquis of Dorset, however, not the 2nd. He had a bit of reputation for such things. From Susan Higginbotham's article here: http://www.susanhigginbotham.com/blog/posts/thomas-grey-marquis-of-dorset-elizabeth-woodvilles-oldest-son/ (http://www.susanhigginbotham.com/blog/posts/thomas-grey-marquis-of-dorset-elizabeth-woodvilles-oldest-son/) 'Dorset and Hastings had a “deadly feud” based on the mistresses they had attempted to steal from each other.' This feud would have deadly consequences also for parties not involved in the actual affairs.
Besides, Lady Scrope speaks of him as if he has already passed, which would be correct for the 1st, but not 2nd, Marquis of Dorset in 1518.
Besides, another puzzling footnote is based on a puzzling section of the will, a section I refuse to believe is correctly translated. That section of the will states that: 'I will that the marriage which hath been solemnized between my daughter Anne and Henry Willoughby, Esquire, son and heir-apparent of Sir Edward Willoughby, Knt. be dissolved.'
I refuse to believe that this is correct. One, the marriage took place, they would have at least three children together, secondly, why in the world would he write that in a will when he presumably not only was the one who had arranged the marriage in the first place, but he could dissolve it far easier in life?
Of course I might yet be proved wrong on that score :)
I am beginning to understand why are always encouraged to go look at the original sources, lol.)
Thank you so much again! You are wonderful, all of you :)
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Snippets 7 & 8
have Immediatly after he comythe to the age of xxi yeres have Bardon parke, and the
pasture of Bardon with thappurtenances in the countie of Leic for terme of his lyf naturall
Allso I will that my sonne Thomas have ymmediatly after he comithe to thage of xxj
yeres, and after the dethe of my sister Anne Gray late wif to my brother John Grey
and nowe wif to Richarde Clemente the Manour of Bosworthe with thappurtenances in the
countie of Leicester, And all my landes and ten(emen)ts and other hereditaments in Bosworth
aforesaide to have to hym for the terme of his lif naturall, And in case my said sonne Thomas
happyn to come to the said age of xxj yeres lyvynge my sister Anne Grey I will that then
Immediatly after he come(th) to the age of xxj yeres, And after the deathe of the Ladye Elizabeth
Cowntes of Oxforde late wif to the Lorde Beamont shalhave my manours landis and ten(emen)ts
in Creke and Cleycotton with thappurtenances in the countie of Northampton for the terme of the
liff of my said sister Anne Graye ALLSO I will to eiche of my daughters not maried unto
the tyme they be married xx li sterling towardes their findinge to be perceyvid levid And
taken yerely by myne executours out of all my manours landis and tene(men)ts except before exceptid
ALLSO I will my daughter marye have towardes hir marriage one thousand poundes so that
she marye by thadvise of my wif, and after the deathe of my wif by thadvise of the more
parte of myn executours, ALLSO I will that every other of my daughters that be not maried
at the tyme of my decease have to wardes their mariage one thousand poundes so that thei
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Thank you so much, goldie!!! :) :) :) This is so wonderful! We are really getting to some good parts now :)
This was absolutely splendid!
Alright, then we definitely know that their sons were called Henry, Edward, Thomas and John. Since they are listed in that order and we know that Henry was the eldest and John the fourth, I think it is safe to assume that Edward was the second and Thomas was the third son! :)
Actually, scratch that.
Before one criticises others ... ::) ;D
The order he lists them in is actually (Henry as eldest son by himself), and then Thomas, Edward and John. I think I got carried away by the fact that he bequests first to Henry and then to Edward, but it would appear as if the inheritance he intends for Thomas is tied up in the dower of his former sister-in-law Anne, his brother John's widow, who is now remarried.
If I understood that bequest correctly :)
That sentence is actually quite famous! It led to centuries of assuming that the mentioned Anne was his blood sister and not his sister-sister-in-law, and led to countless confusion. It is, ironically, one of the few sentences that is actually quoted correctly in the translation I linked to above.
It's funny, because all this time, the time I have been researching this, I thought it meant that he left her something in his will, even something grand, and it seemed, when I read the other transcription, at the expense of his son Thomas. And then it was the other way around!
He sounds positively annoyed that she is still alive and tying up his son's inheritance, lololol.
I meant to ask about this, but, *coughs*, that post may have already gotten long enough ... ;D ::)
But what does 'spiritual dignity' mean? Does anyone know? Is it coming of age? But later he uses that exact term, so ...
Thank you so much yet again! You are so brilliant! :) :) :)
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Not sure about "Spiritual dignity" Willow.
Like you I thought he meant their coming of age, but then later he actually talks about them attaining 21.
I'd be interested in finding out if there is another meaning though!
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Snippets 9 & 10
be maried by thadvise of my wiff And after the deathe of my said wiffe by thadvise of my
executours The said Sommes of money before appoynted for the mariage of my saide
daughters to be levid and taken by myne executours of the Rentunes(?) Issues and proffits of all
my Manours landes and tentis the landes and tenements herafter bequethid or appoynted
unto my said wiff and other duringe their lyves only except, AND in caas my said sonnes
dye before all my said daughters be maryed, And my said daughters be heires unto me or to
my said sonnes or to anny of them I will that then all bequestis made to my said daughters
being so heires and not maried be voide and of none effect, And if anny of my daughters be
maried and he heyres or one of my heires as is aforesaid before the money to hur bequethid be
paid That then the payment therof as muche as shalbe then to paye to cease, And the same
Sommes that they shulde have had to goo to the payments of my debts and p(er)fourmannce of my will, And that donne the overplus to go to the makynge of high wayes and Mariage of
pore Maydens and suche other charitable dedis as shalbe thought convenyent by myne executo(ur)s
ALLSO I WILL that my said wife shalhave the rule and guydinge of all my childerne aswell
sonnes as daughters, And allso the proffitts of all suche sommes of monye as by this my will
be, And is assigned and apointed for the fyndinge of them as is aforesaid untill my saide
daughters be maried and my said sonnes come to thage of xxi yeres, And when anny of my said
daughters byn maryed they to Abbate their porcion of xxli, And that porcion to goo the p(er)four -
mannce of my will AND ALLSO I will that Margaret my wif shalhave all and singuler my
Manours of Croke Cleycotton and Lylboune in the countie of Northampton Dregge Carleton w(it)h
* Rent? Issues and profits.......
Help HD please. Normally 'rents', but more letters here.
Love the 'Pore Maydens ' Willow! Took me ages to twig what that was - it didn't help I managed to miss the line before that out when I transcribed it the first time - so it made even less sense! :)
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I'd agree he mentions his sons in the order Henry, Thomas, Edward and John.
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* Rent? Issues and profits.......
It's Revenues.
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* Rent? Issues and profits.......
It's Revenues.
Thanks Bookbox.
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Not sure about "Spiritual dignity" Willow.
Like you I thought he meant their coming of age, but then later he actually talks about them attaining 21.
I'd be interested in finding out if there is another meaning though!
Yes, it's very strange isn't it! When looking back it does make sense that it would mean something else, as he applies the the term to doctour Johannes fysyssion too (let us employ the proper spelling here *g*) ... And he would presumably have been a learned man of age.
But what?
Hm. I do wonder if it could mean 'until death', to be morbid, (i.e. 'for life',) but the Tudors don't seem to have a problem spelling that out. The term for life is employed liberally throughout the will. Hm! again. Quite the mystery!
Love the 'Pore Maydens ' Willow! Took me ages to twig what that was - it didn't help I managed to miss the line before that out when I transcribed it the first time - so it made even less sense! :)
Haha, yes, I loved that part, too, goldie!!! :) :D :) I love that you loved it too! :) :) :)
I have been chuckling about that all day.
Thank you so much everybody again!!! This is absolutely wonderful! :) :D :)
(In honour of the occasion of him mentioning 'Margaret my wif' in his will for the first time I thought I would link to the sketch of Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset by Holbein: :)
https://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/912209/margaret-marchioness-of-dorset-d-in-or-after-1535 (https://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/912209/margaret-marchioness-of-dorset-d-in-or-after-1535)
After which there have been painted:
http://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/515504 (http://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/515504)
Many:
https://www.weissgallery.com/paintings/lady-margaret-wotton-marchioness-dorset-1487-1541 (https://www.weissgallery.com/paintings/lady-margaret-wotton-marchioness-dorset-1487-1541)
Many:
https://michaelescolme.wordpress.com/2016/02/26/an-imaginary-portrait-of-margaret-wotton-c-1490-after-1535-marchioness-of-dorset/ (https://michaelescolme.wordpress.com/2016/02/26/an-imaginary-portrait-of-margaret-wotton-c-1490-after-1535-marchioness-of-dorset/)
Many:
https://no.pinterest.com/pin/221098662927613776/?lp=true (https://no.pinterest.com/pin/221098662927613776/?lp=true)
Paintings:
https://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/search#/3/collection/2081385/lady-grey-margaret-wootton (https://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/search#/3/collection/2081385/lady-grey-margaret-wootton)
Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset, was one of the two godmothers of Princess Elizabeth, the later Queen Elizabeth I, daughter of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn. Three months before the christening Margaret had ridden in Anne Boleyn's coronation procession from the Tower of London to Westminster Abbey.
She was going to carry the infant Prince Edward, the later Edward VI, at his christening, but was unable to attend due to an outbreak of the plague. At the time she was virtually quarantined her in Croydon, Surrey, 11 miles (18.3 km) south of London.)
And of course no daughters mentioned by name yet ::) Would it really have been so much to ask of these people to list everyone with birthdays and birth years and all of their known ancestors and descendants and perfectly describe their relationship with every one of them? ;D I had great hopes for Anne and Mary, but it turned out to be 'anny' and 'maried' lololol.
Thank you all again for all of your absolutely fantastic help! I am really having so much fun with this will! :)
I'd agree he mentions his sons in the order Henry, Thomas, Edward and John.
I am so glad that you agree with me. I can't believe that we've actually been able to crack this!!! Go team! :) :D :)
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Snippets 11 & 12.
daughters byn maryed them to Abbate their porcions of xxli And that porcion to goo the p(er)four -
mannce of my will AND ALLSO I will that Margaret my wif shalhave all and singulier my
Manours of Creke Cleycotton and Lylborne in the countie of Northampton Dregge Carleton w(i)t(h)
the office of the baylyweke betwene Ayne and derwent , and with the office of the baylyweke
betwene Ayne and derwent Egremond Harrington in the countie of Cumbr(ia) and Thorne lying in the countie of Lancastre with thappurtenaces and all and singulier Messuages landis ten(emen)tis
and hereditamentis in Creke Claycotton Lylborne in the countie of Northampton dregge Carlton
Egremond and harrington in the said countie of Cumbr(ia) and Thorne lying in the said Countie of
Lancastre or ellswhere within anny of the said counties whiche arr reputed knowen or takyn
as parrcell parte or membres of the same Manours landis and ten(emen)tis or of anny of them
to have and to holde the same Manours landis and ten(emen)ts to the said Margaret my wiff for
terme of lyfe of Lady Elizabethe Counteis of Oxforde late wife to the Lorde Beamont AND
after the deathe of the same Counteis of Oxforde I will myn executours shall take the revenues
issues and proffits of the same Manours landis and ten(emen)tis towarde the p(er)formmannce of this
my will AND ALLSO I will to Margaret my said wiff the Manours of Mucheland and
Ulverstond in the countie of Lancastre the manours of Wodacre Ketion Enerdale and Gossford
in the countie of *Combe the manours of Wodhi(n)gferres and Stebbing in the countie of Essex
‘Ulverstond’ might be Ulverston - now in Cumbria, historically in Lancashire.
*In the other clip ‘Cumbria’ is quite clearly written. This one is written “Combr”.
Good luck with finding all those manors!
'Baylyweke' = Bailiwick "the district or jurisdiction of a bailie or bailiff".
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Regarding the spiritual dignity, it actually refers to Robert Broke the schoolmaster and Doctor Johannes.
The reading is muddied in the break between snippets #4 & #5. (It caught me, too.)
I think it must mean their deaths - an extravagant way of saying for the term of their lives, perhaps informed by both being learned men of earthly dignity.
Just a couple of suggestions regarding the names of the manors:
Enerdale is accurately transcribed but, given the range of interpretations for the u/v character, could also be read as Everdale or Euerdale (ie Ewerdale).
I think it is Wodh(a)mferres, just because that's the conventional method of contracting the -ham.
ADDED:
In snippet #11, two instances of: Thorneh(a)m
ADDED 2:
In line 5 of snippet #11; written is Dewan Egremond
However, (i) I'm not sure that's a D (it's different to others), and (ii) it's contracted in some manner.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Woodham_Ferrers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornham,_Greater_Manchester
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ennerdale,_Cumbria ?
This is from an on-line book - 'The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and Cumberland'
Sorry - mistyped 'Eyne' as 'Eyre' on the title of the clipping - can't find out how to change it!
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*In the other clip ‘Cumbria’ is quite clearly written. This one is written “Combr”.
Just incidentally, I would have expected both Cumbr' and Combr' to be contracted forms of Cumberland (not Cumbria).
-
This is so exciting! Imagine having so much to give away! That must be so fun! :) :) :)
Good luck with finding all those manors!
I was originally going to reply with that luckily he did not leave them to me, but actually I wouldn't have minded if someone had given me even just one of them, lololol ;D :D :)
Lady Elizabethe Counteis of Oxforde late wife to the Lorde Beamont
At first I thought he was talking about his sister Elizabeth Grey, Countess of Kildare, but of course he is not.
He is speaking of quite a different Elizabeth, who is countess of something quite else! :)
Consulting Kate Emerson's wonderful Who's Who of Tudor Women (which she kindly allows us to quote from as long as we give credit), she appears to be this woman:
ELIZABETH SCROPE (d. June 26, 1537)
Elizabeth Scrope was the daughter of Sir Richard Scrope (d.1485) and Eleanor Washbourne (d.1505/6). On April 24, 1486 at Westminster, she married William, 2nd viscount Beaumont (d. December 19, 1507). He lost his reason in 1487 and was placed in the care of John de Vere, 13th earl of Oxford at Wivenhoe, Essex until his death. In 1508, Elizabeth married Oxford (September 8, 1442 - March 10, 1513). She was at court as one of Katherine of Aragon’s ladies in 1509. In his will, Oxford left Elizabeth “all manner of apparel to her person,” silk cloth, and “chains, rings, girdles, devices, beads, brooches, ouches and precious stones.” In 1520, she attended the Field of Cloth of Gold. In 1531, she bought the wardship of her nephew, John Audley (her sister Katherine’s son by Richard Audley of Swaffham, Norfolk). She wrote her will on May 30, 1537 and it was proved on November 6, 1537. She was buried at Wivenhoe with her first husband. Portrait: brass at Wivenhoe.
http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_id=707 (http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_id=707)
Elizabeth Scrope: Denial of Wolsey’s Request
http://www.tudorsdynasty.com/elizabeth-scrope-denial-wolseys-request/ (http://www.tudorsdynasty.com/elizabeth-scrope-denial-wolseys-request/)
There is not any readily apparent connection to the Greys, however, nor why she would have a life interest where either the interest or the property itself defaulted to them at her death.
A grant from the King that worded it so, perhaps? The will of Sir John Grey, this Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquis of Dorset's brother? His will was dated 3rd of March 1523. The will makes no mention of children, but leaves bequests to other family members. The aforementioned Lady Anne Grey was his widow. After his death she remarried, to Sir Richard Clement of Ightham Mote, Kent.
The will of this Elizabeth, Countess of Oxford's husband?
It's difficult to say.
Regarding the spiritual dignity, it actually refers to Robert Broke the schoolmaster and Doctor Johannes.
The reading is muddied in the break between snippets #4 & #5. (It caught me, too.)
I think it must mean their deaths - an extravagant way of saying for the term of their lives, perhaps informed by both being learned men of earthly dignity.
Ooh, yes that makes so much sense! That must be it. Thank you so much, horselydown! :) How clever of you to catch it! That line break got one over on us all, lol :)
I am glad we solved that mystery.
Thank you so much again, all three of you!!! All of this is absolutely wonderful! :) :) :)
And I am having so much fun looking up all of those manors! (I would have settled for just one *g*)
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Snippet 13
The manours of Asteley Whitacre Bentley and Aullesley in the countie of Warwike The mano(ur)s
of Heigh(a)m Browghton Asteleye and the manour and hole parke of Bradgate in the countie of Leic’
Snippet 14
with all and singulier their appurtennc(es) and all Landis Tene(me)nt(is) Advousones Patronages and other
hereditamentis whiche be reputid knowen or takyn as parcell parte or membres of the same maners
landis and ten(emen)tis or of anny parte or parcell of anny of them to have and to holde to the saide
Margarete my wiffe for terme of Lyf of the same Margaret And after the deathe of my
said wiff I will myne executours shalhave and take the revenuez Issues and proffitt(es) therof to
the perfourmance of this my will and testament Allso I will that my executours shalhave
and take the revenues yssues and proffit(es) of all and singulier my manours and Townes
of Hunspill de La Hay Chawton, Chawton Hundrith Maryett and Turlebor in the countie of ...
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Thank you so much, Bookbox!!! :) :D :)
He sure did have a lot of manors, didn't he? *g*
Well, I suppose he worked hard for them. Actually, the general consensus is that he did not, lololol :) He just impressed Henry VIII favourably with his strong jousting skills!
Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquis of Dorset, was actually in disgrace when Henry VII died. It has been speculated in that if Henry VII had lived longer, he would not have.
Henry VIII, however, was apparently very fond of his Grey cousins. And it did not take long after his ascension to the throne for Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquis of Dorset, to be restored to all former glories with a few new honours on top of that again. They were among the few family members he had that could not vy for the throne, his throne.
Life makes fools of us all, it seems, even Henry VIII ...
Thank you so much again, Bookbox, for your wonderful translation! :) :D :) This is actually a really fun will :)
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Snippet #15:
...Sommersett and Showtt Southley Wissecombye Bryxh(a)m Cowley Roughorne Grenelinche
ffoxhill Pinner and Sparkey in the countie of Devon the manour of Growby Rottby Newton
Whittington Bardon parke Leyesthropp and Morbowne Willowghby Waterles in the countie
of Leicester The manours of Bedworthe and Pakyngton in the Countie of Warwike the
Manours of Harlington and Sharmbrooke in the countie of Bedd And allso on An(n)uyte or
yerely rente of lxxxij li whiche the kinges grace granntid unto the said Marqueys out of his
douchie as by Indentures therof made playnly apperith and all londis ten(emen)tis hereditamentes...
douchie = duchy (I would think.)
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Snippet #16:
...in enny of the said Townes or elles where whiche be taken as parte or parcell of any of the said
manours To have holde and perceyve all the same Manours londis ten(emen)tis & Annuities to
myn executours to the p(er)fourmance of this my last will and to perfourme the same I will
allso that myn executours shalhave the disposicion no(m)i(n)ation and presentacion of allmaner
of Advousons apperteyninge or belonginge to anny of my said manours landis and ten(emen)tis
before appointed to my Executours for and towardes the p(er)fourmance of this my last will...
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Thank you, thank you so much!!! This is splendid :) :D :)
I cannot believe that he mentions all of those manors but has yet to name a single daughter ::) :)
But I think we are nearing the section that was so horribly mangled in the other version of this will, so that should get us the mention of one at least! :)
Until then I am going to go on researching and imagining living in one of these Tudor castles. There was a lovely Christmas special a couple of years ago :D I have also been going over Henry VIII's lists over New Year's gifts, and Christmas at Tudor court does seem like so much fun! You know, until the holiday festivities were over and somebody got beheaded or smallpox.
Thank you so much, yet again! This is wonderful work! :) :) :)
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*In the other clip ‘Cumbria’ is quite clearly written. This one is written “Combr”.
Just incidentally, I would have expected both Cumbr' and Combr' to be contracted forms of Cumberland (not Cumbria).
Cumbreland? Just remembering how it was pronounced/written by characters in "The Last Kingdom" novels and TV series set in 9thC. I'm interested in both these periods of history.
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Just a couple of suggestions regarding the names of the manors:
ADDED:
In snippet #11, two instances of: Thorneh(a)m
ADDED 2:
In line 5 of snippet #11; written is Dewan Egremond
However, (i) I'm not sure that's a D (it's different to others), and (ii) it's contracted in some manner.
Thurnham in north Lancashire.
Egremont in Cumberland.
These are just suggestions based on my knowledge of geography of North-West England. Btw I'm descended from Lambs who were numerous around Thurnham from this time on. One of my distant ancestors might have been a tenant.
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Snippet 17 (all I have time for at the moment):
...as often as the same advousons or anny of them shall fortune to falle and be voide untill
suche tyme yt my said will be perfourmed and I will that therafter this my last will be
or myght be lawfully p(er)fourmed and for lacke and defaulte of Issue male of my bodye
laufully begotton I will that my doughter Marye have all and singulier my said [Manours?]
londis and ten(emen)tis in the said counties of Combr and Lancastre to hur and to the heires of hur
body lawfully begotton only allso I will that myn executours shall taken thissues revenues
and proffites of all and singulier suche Manours landis ten(emen)tes and hereditamentis wherof my...
yt = that
I suspect that taken should be read as take in.
thissues = the issues
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Snippet 18
... lady my mother hathe declared hur will of towards the p(er)fourmance of this my laste will
of whiche landis and tenementis I have auc(thori)te and powr to declare my will as well as my said
mother as more playnly apperithe by Indentures therof made beringe date the xxiij day of
June in the xvth yere* of our soverayne lorde kinge Henry the Eight Allso I will that if the
mariage solemnised and had betwene Anne my doughter and Henry Willowghby Esquier
sonne and heire apparannt of s(ir) Edwarde Wyllowghby knyght be dyssolvid by reason and disag^r^e(-)...
* 15 Henry VIII = 1523
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*In the other clip ‘Cumbria’ is quite clearly written. This one is written “Combr”.
Just incidentally, I would have expected both Cumbr' and Combr' to be contracted forms of Cumberland (not Cumbria).
Cumbreland? Just remembering how it was pronounced/written by characters in "The Last Kingdom" novels and TV series set in 9thC. I'm interested in both these periods of history.
That series looks really exciting. I have always loved both this time period too! :)
Just a couple of suggestions regarding the names of the manors:
ADDED:
In snippet #11, two instances of: Thorneh(a)m
ADDED 2:
In line 5 of snippet #11; written is Dewan Egremond
However, (i) I'm not sure that's a D (it's different to others), and (ii) it's contracted in some manner.
Thurnham in north Lancashire.
Egremont in Cumberland.
These are just suggestions based on my knowledge of geography of North-West England. Btw I'm descended from Lambs who were numerous around Thurnham from this time on. One of my distant ancestors might have been a tenant.
Wonderfully spotted! Isn't that a funny feeling? :) I have done the same thing, come over somewhere accidentally where my ancestors used to live when I was researching something completely different.
Snippet 17 (all I have time for at the moment):
Anything you can do is so great ❤ I appreciate this so very much.
my doughter Marye have all
!!!!!!!!!!
Things just got interesting.
It looks as if her name was indeed 'Marye'. There is definitely no possibility of it being an abbreviation for Margaret, then? Or a clerical error to the same effect? But he does write out his wife's name in full, so I don't understand why he wouldn't do the same thing for his daughter ...
Or a nickname, Marge? To identify her from her mother? Only, he doesn't seem like a nickname-y sort of guy ... At least in writing. In real life he might have been fireworks of fun. (Actually, he probably was, considering that he was one of Henry VIII's closest comrades. Though Burke describes his speech as 'soldierlike, plain, short, smart, and material.', so perhaps my initial assessment of him was correct :) )
http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/thomasgrey2.htm (http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/thomasgrey2.htm)
Only it would fit so well if she had been named Margaret. We know that Anne Boleyn did not take on any maids of honour younger than 16 (Anne Basset was refused a position for this very reason, being only 15. She had better luck under Jane Seymour).
So, the Lady Margaret Grey that first appears as a receiver of a New Year's gift from Henry VIII in 1534 - to the date on 1st of January 1534 - would have to have been born in or before 1517.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol7/pp4-12 (https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol7/pp4-12)
There is however also a 'Margaret Lady Grey, servant to queen Katharine' who is granted an annuity of 20l in October 1530.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol4/pp3013-3026 (https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol4/pp3013-3026)
That same Margaret appears in an entry in the Letters & Papers of Henry VIII dated 8th of January 1534 as 'Margaret Lady Grey, late Servant of Katharine of Arragon. See Grants in January, No. 4.'
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol7/pp12-16 (https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol7/pp12-16)
Could an unmarried woman be termed thus? I know that later there would be strict rules for that, but in Tudor times it seems not to have been so strict.
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We also have the following entry in the account book for Princess Mary Tudor's household in 1533:
On Monday, 17 March, there came to dinner the marchioness of Dorset, lady Grey, and others ; on Thursday, 10 April, lord Sandes and Sir Will. Fitzwilliam ; on Tuesday, 15 April, the marchioness of Dorset, lady Matravers and her two sisters, with others. At Otforde from Tuesday, 6 May, to Wednesday, 2 July. On Thursday, 15 May, there came to dinner Sir Will. Ascue, Sir And. Billisbe, and Sir Rice Mauncell ; on Thursday, 5 June, lords Montague and Hastings, Sir Geoff. Pale (Pole), Sir Will. Huse, and Sir John Beryn ; on Monday, 9 June, the marquis of Dorset, his mother and sister
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol6/pp613-626 (https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol6/pp613-626)
The Greys/Dorsets appear to have been frequent visitors. Accompanying the Marchioness of Dorset there is a lady Grey.
Could Lady Grey or the Lady Grey be some sort of courtesy title given to the eldest daughter of the family?
As in Jane Austen's day and age. In Pride and Prejudice, the eldest daughter of the family, Jane Bennet, is called Miss Bennet while her younger sisters are Miss Elizabeth Bennet, Miss Mary Bennet, Miss Catherine Bennet and Miss Lydia Bennet.
I know that wasn't the case with the aristocracy later, but could that have been a thing in Tudor times?
Because there is also a 'the Lady Grey' who has never been identified (at least not by Kate Emerson whose list I am going by) present with Princess Mary at Richmond in 1520 during the Field of Cloth of Gold.
http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_id=745 (http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_id=745)
Would it not make sense to have a little companion for her? And who better than one of her closest family members in the country, her cousin, the eldest daughter of her father's great friend and first cousin Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquis of Dorset?
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my doughter Marye have all
!!!!!!!!!!
Things just got interesting.
It looks as if her name was indeed 'Marye'. There is definitely no possibility of it being an abbreviation for Margaret, then? Or a clerical error to the same effect? But he does write out his wife's name in full, so I don't understand why he wouldn't do the same thing for his daughter ...
Or a nickname, Marge? To identify her from her mother?
I have rechecked and the letter is clearly a y. Compare, for example the word tyme two lines above.
Just a suggestion from my point of view, Willow, but it might be best to read the whole will before becoming too invested in interpreting any finds.
Just letting others know that I am doing Snippet #19 before I head off to bed.
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Lady Margaret Grey is mentioned as a receiver again of a New Year's gift from Henry VIII on the 1st of January 1538.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol13/no2/pp496-539 (https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol13/no2/pp496-539)
And again in 1540:
New Year's Gifts 1st January 1540
Servants of the Lady Mary [Mary I Tudor], 53s. 4d.; of Lady Elizabeth [Elizabeth I Tudor], 20s.; of the duchess of Suffolk [Katherine Willoughby], old lady of Norfolk, duchess of Richmond [Mary Howard, Duchess of Richmond, the widow of the King's illegitimate son], lady of Westmoreland, and lady of Rutland, 20s. each; of lady Powes, 13s. 4d.; of the lady Marquis Dorset [Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset, 20s., lady Huntingdon, 20s., Mounteagle, 13s. 4d., Audeley, the Lord Chancellor's wife [our Elizabeth Grey, Lady Audley], 40s., the lady of Kent [Margaret Finch, Countess of Kent, married name Grey at the time], 10s., the lady of Rochford [Jane Parker Boleyn], 13s. 4d., lady Browne, 10s., Bryan, 10s., the young lady Marquis Dorset [Frances Brandon, later Duchess of Suffolk, Henry VIII's niece and Jane Grey's mother], 20s., lady Guildford, 13s. 4d., lady of Derby, 20s., of ladies Calthrop, Baynton (10s.), Hertford, Kinston, Hampton, Russell, Lister, Russell of Worcestershire, Souche, young lady Knevett, St. John (10s.), Hennage, Shelton, Dudley, Page, Sussex, Kildare, Margaret Grey, Herbert of Troy, Bridgewater (20s.), Margaret Douglas, Egecum, Carewe and Taylbushe, 13s. 4d. each; of Mrs. Hill, Mrs. Bowcher, Mrs. Deny, Mrs. Chamborne, Mrs. Jenyns, Mrs. Dorothy Bray, Mrs. Meawtis, and the lord Prince's nurse (that brought “a dossen hankerchers garnished with gold”), 10s. each.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol16/pp178-210 (https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol16/pp178-210)
Here we also see that the idea that she could be Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset (whose married name of course would have been Grey) falls away, as they are all mentioned in the same document as separate people. '[T]he lady Marquis Dorset', i.e. Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset, 'the young lady Marquis Dorset', Frances Brandon, later Duchess of Suffolk, Henry VIII's niece and Jane Grey's mother, and of course, our mysterious 'ladies [...] Margaret Grey'.
As an added bonus we also see the 'lady of Kent' mentioned in the list together with the other ladies, neatly eliminating her as a candidate also. She had the title lady, was christened Margaret, and had the married name of Grey from about 1520.
From Kate Emerson's wonderful Who's Who of Tudor Women:
MARGARET FINCH (d.1540/1)
Margaret Finch was the daughter of James Finch or Fynche of London. She was married three times. Her first husband was John Dawes (d.1514), a grocer and London alderman living in Farringdon Without. Her second husband was Oliver Curteis or Curteys. On January 23, 1520/1, she married Richard Grey, 3rd earl of Kent (1481-1524), whose first wife had died on November 19,1516. Margaret had a dowry of 2000 marks, which Kent planned to use to redeem manors he’d sold off in previous years. In partial preparation for her new status as a countess, Margaret purchased twelve ells of Holland cloth, half an ell of popinjay sarcenet, and a frontlet of gold. The cost for all these together was £48 2s. 2d. She appears to have had no children by any of her husbands.
http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_id=675
I had her in the running as the mysterious Lady Margaret Grey for awhile, but now she can be safely eliminated.
I have often seen it stated that Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset, died in 1535, but as we can see, she was still alive in 1540.
In fact, she was still alive in January 1541. On the 1st of January, to be presise:
New Year's Gifts 1st January 1541
(I think? - “Rewards given on Saturday, New Year's Day, at Hampton Court, anno xxxijo”)
'of the lady Mary and lady Anne Cleves, 53s. 4d. each; of the duchess of Suffolk, the old lady of Norfolk, the duchess of Richmond, the lady Westmoreland, the lady of Rutland, the lady marquis Dorset, the lady of Huntingdon, and lady Audeley, 20s. each; of ladies Rochford, Bryan (10s.), Guildford, Caltrope, Denys (10s.), Baynton (10s.), of Hertford, Kingston, Russell, of Hampton, Hawarde (10s.), Lyster, Russell of Worcestershire, Zouche, Shelton, the young lady marquis Dorset (20s.), Knevitt, St. John, Hennage, Dudley, Page, of Sussex, of Kildare, Herbert of Troy, of Bridgewater (20s.), Margret Dugles (20s.), Edgecombe, Carowe, Tailbushe, Crumwell, Wriothesley, and Bray, 13s. 4d. each; Mrs. Hill, servant, reward, “Mrs. Bourches, servant,” Mrs. Denys', Mrs. Chambours', Mrs. Jenyns', Mrs. Mewtes', the lord Prince's nurse (that brought “a dozen hankerchers garnished with gold”), Mrs. Penn, Mrs. Turwhit, and Mrs. Herbert, 10s. each;'
Henry VIII: Miscellaneous 1541 Pages 696-730 (http://Henry VIII: Miscellaneous 1541 Pages 696-730)
Lady Margaret Grey however is ominously and conspicuously missing.
If anyone has a complete list with links to all of the New Year's gifts lists, I would be deeply grateful. I have not been able to find one for the time after 1541.
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Snippet 18
... lady my mother hathe declared hur will of towards the p(er)fourmance of this my laste will
of whiche landis and tenementis I have auc(thori)te and powr to declare my will as well as my said
mother as more playnly apperithe by Indentures therof made beringe date the xxiij day of
June in the xvth yere* of our soverayne lorde kinge Henry the Eight Allso I will that if the
mariage solemnised and had betwene Anne my doughter and Henry Willowghby Esquier
sonne and heire apparannt of s(ir) Edwarde Wyllowghby knyght be dyssolvid by reason and disag^r^e(-)...
* 15 Henry VIII = 1523
Blessed be! He is naming all of them :)
Thank goodness! It would have been so annoying of him to write long will and omit any mention of his daughters names :)
I think his mentions of his mother is regarding an old family quarrel. Although the quarrel between him and his mother about money never got quite as vicious the quarrel between his son and his mother, it got quite vicious enough.
His mother's will is quoted in the book I mentioned earlier, Testamenta Vetusta. I read it hoping for any clues, thinking that she might have mentioned her grandsons or granddaughters, but she does not make one - 1 - mention of either her eldest son or his wife or any of his children. Brr.
His mention of her is rather cold too.
my doughter Marye have all
!!!!!!!!!!
Things just got interesting.
It looks as if her name was indeed 'Marye'. There is definitely no possibility of it being an abbreviation for Margaret, then? Or a clerical error to the same effect? But he does write out his wife's name in full, so I don't understand why he wouldn't do the same thing for his daughter ...
Or a nickname, Marge? To identify her from her mother?
I have rechecked and the letter is clearly a y. Compare, for example the word tyme two lines above.
Just a suggestion from my point of view, Willow, but it might be best to read the whole will before becoming too invested in interpreting any finds.
Just letting others know that I am doing Snippet #19 before I head off to bed.
Oh, that is too bad :( She could be a Grey cousin, I suppose. Mysterious.
Yes, you are undoubtedly right :) It is also just a way to organise my thoughts and have all of my research so that I have it for later.
Thank you so much for all of your hard work, all of you! :) :) :) I really, really appreciate it.
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Snippet #19:
...ment of either of them at their laufull age of consent or by reason of dethe of the same Henry
Willowghby and before carnall knowledge had betwene them that then the said Anne shalhave
towardes hir mariage one thousand poundes sterling as hir other susters shalhave Allso I
will that my wif have all my houshold stuff plate and Juelles duringe hur lyf except
suche porcion therof as she at hur pleasure shall gyve to my sonne Henry And after hur
decease to my ^leve to^ sonne Henry ij partes therof as it shalbe valluyd or worthe at the tyme of hur
decease Allso I will that myne executours shalhave all my goodes and Cattall leases for
yeres not bequethid in this my will towardes the p(er)fourmance of this my will allso I will...
Notes:
I believe the confused section in line six should be this:
...decease to ^leve to^ my sonne Henry ij partes...
That is, the writer has put the insertion arrow in the wrong place.
valluyd = valued
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Snippet #20:
...that Marye Tomason have yerely duringe hur lyff fyve markes st(er)ling out of all my man(our)s
londis and tenementis in the countie of leic(estre) And allso a hundrithe markes st(erling) to hir mariage
Allso I will that my buildinge at Bradgate be fynyshid and made by myn executours
accordinge to a platt therof made And the Chapell at Asteley to be buyldid And my tombe to
be made there by thadvise of my said executours And the said Chapel buyldinge and
Tombe to be made in as Convenient tyme as it may resonablye I will that phillip the
Eremyte have xijd by weke as longe as he contynuethe at Asteley to pray for my faither
and my mother soules my wifes soule and all christen soules allso I will I will that all...
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Notes:
I believe the confused section in line six should be this:
...decease to ^leve to^ my sonne Henry ij partes...
That is, the writer has put the insertion arrow in the wrong place.
valluyd = valued
Yes, I have read it over, and I entirely agree.
Thank you so much, I really appreciate this!!! :) :D :)
Alright, just to see if we are all interpretation-wise on the same page together:
for lacke and defaulte of Issue male of my bodye laufully begotton I will that my doughter Marye have all and singulier my said [Manours?] londis and ten(emen)tis in the said counties of Combr and Lancastre to hur and to the heires of hur body lawfully begotton only
This, the mentioning of Mary first, and inserting her as heir if something happens to all of his sons, indicates that she is the oldest daughter, doesn't it?
Putting some parts together for clarity:
Allso I will that if the mariage solemnised and had betwene Anne my doughter and Henry Willowghby Esquier sonne and heire apparannt of s(ir) Edwarde Wyllowghby knyght be dyssolvid by reason and disag^r^e(-)ment of either of them at their laufull age of consent or by reason of dethe of the same Henry Willowghby and before carnall knowledge had betwene them that then the said Anne shalhave towardes hir mariage one thousand poundes sterling as hir other susters shalhave
This means that a marriage ceremony has taken place, right? Or something to that effect. Probably the aforementioned 'married by agreement dated 20 Sept. 1528'.
But the marriage has not yet been consummated. They were probably not cohabitating.
be dyssolvid by reason and disag^r^e(-)ment of either of them at their laufull age of consent
I take this to mean that none of them, not Henry Willoughby, nor the testator's daughter Anne, had reached the lawful age of consent in 1530 when her father wrote his will.
Child marriages could take place, but then both parties had right to refuse when they reached the age of 12, which was the canonical age of consent, making the marriage invalid. Margaret Beaufort, Henry VII's mother, did this with her first marriage.
In a way this is very nice of the testator, he is giving her a way out.
And then he suddenly stops naming daughters. Could this 'Marye Tomason' be an illegitimate daughter?
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Snippet #21:
...and singulier parsonne and parsonnes that now be seasid or that herafter shalbe seased of all and
singulier the said lordeshppes manours londis ten(emen)tis and other the premisses or of any other londis
ten(emen)tis and hereditamentes wherof I have pour and auctorite to declare my will shall shall from hens
forthe stand and be seased therof to thusis and intentes specyfied and declarid within this my laste
will and testament & to the p(er)fourmance of the same and I renownce and forsake all other
will and wylles by me before the date of this presentis made and affirmie this to be my last
will and testament And executours of the same I ordeyne constitute and make my Entierly welbe
lovid Lady Margaret my wiff and my speciall frendis Cutbert Tunstall now electe busshopp
of Durh(a)m Sir John ffytziames now cheif Justice of the kynges benche William Shelley one...
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Regarding your questions in Reply #44:
First, I would say that Mary was possibly the oldest daughter but we can't definitively say so based on the evidence we have so far.
Secondly, I agree with your conclusions regarding Anne and the Willoughby marriage.
Thirdly, Marye Tomason could be anything based on what we have so far in the will. I feel that the small amount given makes it unlikely that she's an illegitimate daughter.
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I agree with HD's views on your questions in Reply #44.
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Snippet 22
... of the kynges Iustices of his com(m)on place Edwarde Wotton knyght William Ashebye Esquire
and Robert Brocke clerke and to every of my said executours I gyve and bequethe xxli and
their reasonable Costes and expens(es) that they shall susteyne and be at in and abowte the
execucion and p(er)fourmance of this my will And I will that my lady my mothers will
concerninge the findinge of ij preestis in the Chapel of Asteley and the contynuance of the
same ij preestis be observid and kept accordinge to my said Ladye my mothers will In
wyttnesse wherof I the saide Thomas Marques Dorset have to this my wyll put my seale*
* -- insertion in the right-hand margin?
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Snippet #20:
... And the Chapell at Asteley to be buyldid And my tombe to
be made there by thadvise of my said executours And the said Chapel buyldinge and
Tombe to be made in as Convenient tyme as it may resonablye I will that phillip the
Eremyte have xijd by weke as longe as he contynuethe at Asteley to pray for my faither
and my mother soules my wifes soule and all christen soules allso I will I will that all...
"phillip the Eremyte" = Phillip the Hermit? Or was Eremyte a religious order?
Edit. eremite was a Christian hermit or recluse. (Collins English Dictionary)
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Regarding your questions in Reply #44:
First, I would say that Mary was possibly the oldest daughter but we can't definitively say so based on the evidence we have so far.
I agree. She could simply be the favourite daughter, or maybe she loved those properties dearly even though she was but a small child making her father want her to have them, or some other reason that has been lost between the testator writing his will in 1530 and us nearly 500 years later.
Chronology-wise it makes absolutely no sense for Mary to be eldest and Anne to be the second daughter. If Anne was born after 1518, as we have now established that she was, she must have been born after Elizabeth.
I have seen Katherine referred to as the second daughter in a usually reliable source and Anne as the third daughter in another seemingly reliable source. Katherine could have been born right after Elizabeth, that would have worked chronology-wise, but then the numbering of the girls would not make sense unless Mary was actually the youngest ...
Like I wrote previously, I have been inclined to dismiss the numbering of the girls as 'Elizabeth, Katherine, Anne', as I had been operating on the assumption that Anne was the eldest as she married first, in 1528. Now that it seems as though she was indeed the youngest, (or at least youngest out of the of the three of them, Elizabeth, Katherine and Anne), I have been forced to rethink that. Those two others could be refering to some reliable source that I have yet to find. But the numbering does not work if Mary were the eldest. Unless she died so young that she 'didn't count'. I have experienced this once before. Another Elizabeth, in the 1700's, I think. She clearly had two elder sisters, I found their christening records, but she was always referred to as the eldest daughter in documents, including her father's will. She also had younger sisters, but the two girls born first died very young.
Secondly, I agree with your conclusions regarding Anne and the Willoughby marriage.
Yes. It has never made sense to me, that if Anne and Henry Willoughby were already cohabiting in 1528, why their children only started being born over 12 years later in the 1540's. These things do happen of course, it just never seemed that likely. Especially for a family that had the habit of marrying their daughters off ridiculously young, if you ask me.
Alas, in the event, they did not.
(Katherine's daughter Jane was married off between 13 and 15, her daughter Mary at 15, Anne's daughter Margaret Willoughby was married of in 1559 at the age of 15 and Elizabeth's daughter Margaret Audley must have been between 12 and 13 when she was married to Lord Henry Dudley, younger brother of Lord Robert Dudley and Lord Guildford Dudley, as they were already married when the failed attempt to put Jane Grey on the throne occurred. She was not only Lady Jane Grey's first cousin through her mother and Jane's father, but also her sister-in law.
She would later marry as his second wife the widower of her cousin Mary.
They would both marry this chap:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Howard,_4th_Duke_of_Norfolk#/media/File:ThomasHoward4HerzogvonNorfolk.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Howard,_4th_Duke_of_Norfolk#/media/File:ThomasHoward4HerzogvonNorfolk.jpg)
Of the above, Jane would have no surviving children, and Mary and Margaret Audley, the Duchesses of Norfolk, would both die in childbirth.
At some point, you would have thought that it would have pegged for these people that these super-early marriages with a baby every year weren't necessarily the wisest. *sigh* The matter was of course exacerbated by the higher classes' practice of hiring wet nurses. One important reason for wet nurses was for the mother to conceive again quickly. Breastfeeding works as a natural birth control, which was known at time. The working classes took full advantage of this, naturally, due to the expense and work of another child so soon after the last one, without realising it giving the mother's body time to heal after birth (it is said to take a year for the body to be fully restituted), resulting in a stronger mother and baby. The higher classes took the opposite course of action, inadvertantly resulting in the opposite ...
Of course, many siblings, also today, are born within a year of each other, and people have babies young, these things happen, and fortunately everything usually turns out fine :) But year after year after year ... And so many of them. And so planned. And with the, to put it mildly, severely lacking prenatal care and childbirth care of the time ... )
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Thirdly, Marye Tomason could be anything based on what we have so far in the will. I feel that the small amount given makes it unlikely that she's an illegitimate daughter.
I agree. I did play with the thought that she might have been the 'daughter in base' by his father mentioned in that other will, since he seemed to have quarreled with his mother and that entire side of the family (he has mentioned none of his many, many, many other siblings so far, which is very unusual), but she would have to have been at least 27 years old (based on the year of the death of his father) and then it seems strange to put marriage as a stipulation rather than just handing them to her outright.
I agree with HD's views on your questions in Reply #44.
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Snippet 22
... of the kynges Iustices of his com(m)on place Edwarde Wotton knyght William Ashebye Esquire
and Robert Brocke clerke and to every of my said executours I gyve and bequethe xxli and
their reasonable Costes and expens(es) that they shall susteyne and be at in and abowte the
execucion and p(er)fourmance of this my will And I will that my lady my mothers will
concerninge the findinge of ij preestis in the Chapel of Asteley and the contynuance of the
same ij preestis be observid and kept accordinge to my said Ladye my mothers will In
wyttnesse wherof I the saide Thomas Marques Dorset have to this my wyll put my seale*
* -- insertion in the right-hand margin?
That is so weird. I cannot see any insertions. Perhaps in the original document? One that didn't get copied to this clerical copy of that one?
I am so glad that we are all in agreement about Mary, Anne and Henry Willoughby :)
Sir Edward Wotton was his brother-in-law, Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset's brother. Henry VIII would later nominate him as one of his executors and a privy councillor to his son Edward, the later Edward VI .
William Ashebye Esquire - Probably this chap:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/ashby-william-1470-1543 (http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/ashby-william-1470-1543)
Robert Brocke clerke
The same Roberte Broke scolemaster that he left xxli yearly to earlier?
And executours of the same I ordeyne constitute and make my Entierly welbe
lovid Lady Margaret my wiff and my speciall frendis Cutbert Tunstall now electe busshopp
of Durh(a)m Sir John ffytziames now cheif Justice of the kynges benche William Shelley one...[/b]
Cutbert Tunstall now electe busshopp of Durh(a)m
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuthbert_Tunstall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuthbert_Tunstall) - He seems to have been a very good man indeed. How sad that it ended like that. I would like to think that he would have been given his liberty again if he had lived longer.
Sir John ffytziames now cheif Justice of the kynges benche
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_FitzJames (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_FitzJames)
William Shelley one of the kynges Iustices of his com(m)on place - Probably this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_William_Shelley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_William_Shelley) - He seems also to be a distant relation of Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset, through the Belknap connection.
Snippet #20:
... And the Chapell at Asteley to be buyldid And my tombe to
be made there by thadvise of my said executours And the said Chapel buyldinge and
Tombe to be made in as Convenient tyme as it may resonablye I will that phillip the
Eremyte have xijd by weke as longe as he contynuethe at Asteley to pray for my faither
and my mother soules my wifes soule and all christen soules allso I will I will that all...
"phillip the Eremyte" = Phillip the Hermit? Or was Eremyte a religious order?
Edit. eremite was a Christian hermit or recluse. (Collins English Dictionary)
LOL! Yes, I noticed that too. When in doubt, always get an hermit to pray for you, I always say *g*
Thank you all so very much!!! This is all so very wonderful! :) :D :)
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I am actually wondering if Robert Brocke or Broke could be this bloke:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Broke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Broke)
Broke was admitted to study for a BA at Oxford university in 1521. As a very minor member of the landed gentry, Broke needed to seek sources of income outside his own locality if he were to prosper, and he did so through London and the law. He studied at Strand Inn, and from there was admitted to Middle Temple at some point between 1525 and 1528. He studied pleading with John Jenour, a famous Prothonotary who influenced a whole generation of judges and jurists.
From the Wikipedia article: 'Broke's judicial career began in 1536 when he was appointed Common Serjeant of London on the recommendation of Henry VIII and the queen, Jane Seymour; how he gained such royal favour is unknown.'
Well, if he were, that would certainly have given an answer to that.
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Snippet 5
sonne Henry to have xxli yerely out of suche landes and ten(emen)tis whereof myne executours
shall take the proffitts by this my will unto suche tyme as he be promotid to spirituall dignite
to the yerely valewe of xxx pounds.And likewise that doctor Johannes sysytsion have x li
yerely out of the said landes and tene(men)tis unto suche tyme as he be promotid to one spirituall
dignite to the yerely value of xxli AND allso I will that the said Robert Broke and the said doctor
Johannes shulde be furst promotid by my executours Allso I will that Edwarde Mountague
have yerely iiijli during his liff out of the Manour of Growbye and other landes and ten(emen)tis
in Growbye in the countie of Leic, And that william horewood have yerely out of the said Manor
landis and ten(emen)tis in Growbye lxvj s viij d for terme of his lyff every of them gevyinge their
counsell to my lady my wiff and to my heires And I will that Elizabeth Stafferton
wif to Cristofer Stafferton have yerely out of the said Manours landes and ten(emen)ts in Growby
aforeaid lxvjs viijd for terme of hir lyff, Allso I will that every of my sonnes Thomas
Someone might like to check the surname of the good doctor John on line 3 :)
Edwarde Mountague - Could be this man:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Montagu_(judge) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Montagu_(judge))
Amongst other things, he was a member of the Privy Council of King Henry VIII of England, who appointed him one of sixteen executors of his last will, and governor to his son Edward.
Ironically, during the crisis of 1553 when Edward VI wished to alter the succession in favour of Lady Jane Grey, the granddaughter of our testator, Thomas Grey, 2nd Marchioness of Dorset, Montagu protested at the illegality of the proceedings. However, when the Duke of Northumberland called him a traitor and threatened him with physical violence, he withdrew his protest. Mary I imprisoned Montagu in the Tower of London, once she took the throne, but he bought his way out.
william horewood (oh dear) - In all likehood this chap:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Whorwood (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Whorwood)
William Whorwood (Horwood) (*snickers* *is twelve*) - History of Parliament Online biography here:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/whorwood-%28horwood%29-william-1505-45 (http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/whorwood-%28horwood%29-william-1505-45)
In another one of those little strange vagarities of life, William's daughter Anne ended up married to Ambrose Dudley, elder brother of Robert Dudley, Guildford Dudley and Henry Dudley, therefore making her the sister-in-law of both Lady Jane Grey and Margaret Audley, the granddaughters of the testator.
Certainly an impressive list of people!
Still no luck with the good doctor or the Staffertons, goldie :)
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Snippet #23:
...the daye and yere abovesaid And whereas I before in this my present testament have
willid and gyvyn to Edwarde my sonne after he comyth to the age of xxj yeres my manour
of Bedworthe and Packington with thappurten(a)nces and all the Landis and ten(emen)tis in
Bedworsthe and Packyngton in the Countie of Warwike for terme of his lif and allso
where as I willid and gave unto my said sonne John after he comyth to thage of xxj yeres
Bardon Parkes and the pasture of Bardon with thappurtennces for terme of hys Lyff...
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That is so weird. I cannot see any insertions. Perhaps in the original document? One that didn't get copied to this clerical copy of that one?
The insertion is one word of about 5 letters (in contracted form) written in the margin to the right of the word seale (see last line of Snippet #22).
It might be yoken or yoven perhaps?
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Snippet #23:
...and allso whereas I willid to my sonne Thomas after he comyth to the age of xxj yeres my
manours landis and ten(emen)tis in Creke and Cleycotton Immediatly after the dethe of
Elizabeth Counteis of Oxforde yf Anne Graye late [y? = the?] wife ^t of my brother John [Gray?] and now wife^ to sir Richarde Clement be
then lyvynge sholde be unto unto my said sonne Thomas duringe his lyf of the said Anne Graye
as by my said will afore made playnly apperithe whiche legacyes made unto my
said iij sonnes and every of them concerning the said manours landis and ten(emen)tis I revoke
and adnull by this my present will and for Recompense wherof I will that my said...
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That is so weird. I cannot see any insertions. Perhaps in the original document? One that didn't get copied to this clerical copy of that one?
The insertion is one word of about 5 letters (in contracted form) written in the margin to the right of the word seale (see last line of Snippet #22).
It might be yoken or yoven perhaps?
Oh, yes, I see what Bookbox meant now!
Might I put in a suggestion for today?
Then the entire sentence reads: In wyttnesse wherof I the saide Thomas Marques Dorset have to this my wyll put my seale today the daye and yere abovesaid
I am pretty sure that word ends with oday or at least day.
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Thank you so much for this, HD, and everybody else! I really appreciate this. It's utterly wonderful. I have no idea how I would have got any further without you. I probably wouldn't have :) :-* :)
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Snippet #23:
...and allso whereas I willid to my sonne Thomas after he comyth to the age of xxj yeres my
manours landis and ten(emen)tis in Creke and Cleycotton Immediatly after the dethe of
Elizabeth Counteis of Oxforde yf Anne Graye late [y? = the?] wife ^t of my brother John [Gray?] and now wife^ to sir Richarde Clement be
then lyvynge sholde be unto unto my said sonne Thomas duringe his lyf of the said Anne Graye
as by my said will afore made playnly apperithe whiche legacyes made unto my
said iij sonnes and every of them concerning the said manours landis and ten(emen)tis I revoke
and adnull by this my present will and for Recompense wherof I will that my said...
Cley Coton, Northamptonshire.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol4/pp595-610
28. Tho. marquis of Dorset. Grant, in fee, of the park called Beamount Lease, alias Beamount Wood, Leic., adjoining the King's park of Leicestre Fryth, and of Barden park, Leic.; in exchange for the Marquis's manor of Cley-Coton, Northt. Del. Westm., 28 May 17 Hen. VIII.—S.B.
I am interested in any references to Edward Wootton and Charles Brandon Duke of Suffolk (Brother-in-Law of Henry VIII), as I am a bit of a collector of photocopy prints and images of documents relating to the Manor of Stockingford, alias Stokyngforth and Stoccingford & others), mine are photocopy prints of those in the Aston Charters (now in the British Library Dept of MSS).
The Manors of Stockingford were at the place called Galley Common, where finds date back 2,000 years. A Map of the Plot of Galley Common was drawn in 1590 for an Exchequer Case held in the time of Elizabeth I. The documents say the map was based on a description in an ancient Deed of Hughe Lylborne. Hugh Lilleburn registered / held property at Stockingford in 1280.
Stockingford from John Nichols, The History and Antiquities of the County of Leicester
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=752119.msg6005900#msg6005900
Monument to Henry Grey Duke of Suffolk Lord of the Manor of Astley, where a Hollow Oak once stood
https://www.ourwarwickshire.org.uk/content/catalogue_her/duke-of-suffolks-monument-astley
Enerdale mentioned earlier is Ennerdale, Cumbria. River Ehen. Apparently forfeited by Henry Duke of Suffolk, Father of Lady Jane Grey.
Mark
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Snippet 25
... sonne Edwarde Immediatly after he comithe to thage of xx yeres shalhave Morebarne
ffeldis in the countie of Leic’ for terme of his lyfe And I will further that if the saide
landis and ten(emen)tis callid Morebarne feldis be not of the yerely value of xlli* above all charg(es)
that myn executours or one of them shall assigne other of my landis and ten(emen)tis to make in
all to the yerely value of xlli and that landis and ten(emen)tis so to be assignid shalbe allso to my
said sonne for terme of his lyfe And till the said assignement be had I will that myne execut-
or one of them shall yerely content and paye to my said sonne (as muche? deleted) mony as the said lond(es)
and ten(emen)tis callid Morebarne feldis lackythe of the yerely value of xlli And I will allso to ...
* = 40 pounds
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Snippet 26
... my said sonne John after he come to the age of xxj yeres shalhave the manour of Leysthorpp
in the Countie of Leic’ and all maner landis ten(emen)tis and pastures in the said Countie knowen by
the name of Leyst(h)ropp for terme of his lyfe And I will further that if the said manour land(es)
and tenement(es) callid leysthropp be not of the yerely value of xlli above all chargis that my
Executours or one of them shall assigne other of my landis and ten(emen)t(es) and that landis and
ten(emen)tis so to be assigned shalbe allso to my said sonne for terme of his Lyfe and till the said assigneme(n)t
be had I will that myne executours or one of them shall yerely content and pay unto my said ...
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The insertion is one word of about 5 letters (in contracted form) written in the margin to the right of the word seale (see last line of Snippet #22).
It might be yoken or yoven perhaps?
I agree, though I don't know why it's there, exactly where it is to be inserted (if indeed it is), or what it signifies.
Willow, I can't read it as today. The first letter appears to be y, with a vestigial tail looping forwards, though part of it has been cut off in your snippet in reply #56. Like HD, I believe the last letter is not y, but probably a final n, with downward extension, of which there are several examples in this document. As has been pointed out, it's a contraction, so we're looking for a word longer than 5 letters which fits the context. The word today isn't often found in wills of this period; this day would be more common.
I wonder if it somehow relates to the fact that he sounds as if he's signing off here (fixing his seal, day and year aforesaid, etc.), but in practice the will goes on much further? I'm still thinking about it ...
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I was right about Thurnham. See "A History of the County of Lancaster" Victoria County History series volume 8 pages 101-105. Available to read as BHO British History Online.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/lancs/vol8/pp101-105
Thurnham Township
"... belongs rather to Cockerham than to Lancaster ……. yet the larger part of its' area lies within the latter parish …."
Thurnham Manor
"Before the Conquest Thurnham ….. being held in 1066 by Earl Tostig. Afterwards it is found to belong to the Lancaster family …… It thus descended to the Harringtons of Aldingham (fn 8) and through Bonvil to Grey, being held by Henry Grey, Duke of Suffolk, executed for treason 1554. The duke had in 1552 sold it to Thomas Lowrie, citizen of London (fn 9)….."
Footnotes:
7. Crown dues received by Thomas Parr of Kendal. (I didn't note date.)
8. Elizabeth Harrington married William Bonvil. Their granddaughter and heir, Cecily, married Thomas Grey, Marquis of Dorset. Their son, Thomas died 1530.
9. Sale to Thomas Lowrie included manor & lands, 2 water mills, 20 saltpits &c. in Thurnham, Glasson and Cockerham.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Katherine Parr, 6th & last wife to King Henry, was from Kendal.
Glasson has/had a dock on the River Lune. Lancaster was an important international port in 18thC.
Thomas Lowrie sold Thurnham Manor to Robert Dalton not long after and seemingly made a large profit . The Dalton family still owned it nearly 300 years later, in spite of having it confiscated twice, being on Royalist side in English Civil War and Jacobite in 1715. The Daltons were Catholic. A later footnote lists their holdings. Forton, home of my ancestors in 18thC, is on the list.
Edit. I don't know why an emoticon appeared after the name Aldingham in my third paragraph. Perhaps the Harrington family were the epitome of cool in their day. It should be the number 8. I can't get rid of it. 8 was there when I previewed it and also when I tried to amend it. Now I need the emoticon for puzzlement.
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A bit of historical information about Egremont in Cumberland:
The Harrington family and the Earls of Northumberland feature in it.
Egremont Barony belonged to the de Moulton family. 3 sisters of John de Moulton each received 1/3 of it in 1338. Joan De Moulton was wife of Robert Fitzwalter, Elizabeth was wife of Sir Robert Harrington and Margaret married Thomas de Lucy.
The Lucy share descended to Earls of Northumberland. Earls of Northumberland obtained Fitzwalter share by exchange of lands in early 16thC and the Harrington share 1594. The Barony then descended with the Honour of Cockermouth.
https://www.cumbriacountyhistory.org.uk/township/egremont
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Thank you, Maiden Stone! All of this is super-interesting! :) :D :)
Katherine Parr, 6th & last wife to King Henry, was from Kendal.
Katherine Parr is one of those people in history I keep coming over :) Our roads keep crossing!
Forton, home of my ancestors in 18thC, is on the list.
That is so cool! :) :) :)
The insertion is one word of about 5 letters (in contracted form) written in the margin to the right of the word seale (see last line of Snippet #22).
It might be yoken or yoven perhaps?
I agree, though I don't know why it's there, exactly where it is to be inserted (if indeed it is), or what it signifies.
Willow, I can't read it as today. The first letter appears to be y, with a vestigial tail looping forwards, though part of it has been cut off in your snippet in reply #56. Like HD, I believe the last letter is not y, but probably a final n, with downward extension, of which there are several examples in this document. As has been pointed out, it's a contraction, so we're looking for a word longer than 5 letters which fits the context. The word today isn't often found in wills of this period; this day would be more common.
I wonder if it somehow relates to the fact that he sounds as if he's signing off here (fixing his seal, day and year aforesaid, etc.), but in practice the will goes on much further? I'm still thinking about it ...
I bow to your better judgement, Bookbox :) Thank you so much for the great work you do here! :) :D :)
I will rack my brain trying to figure out what it can be too!
Snippet #23:
...and allso whereas I willid to my sonne Thomas after he comyth to the age of xxj yeres my
manours landis and ten(emen)tis in Creke and Cleycotton Immediatly after the dethe of
Elizabeth Counteis of Oxforde yf Anne Graye late [y? = the?] wife ^t of my brother John [Gray?] and now wife^ to sir Richarde Clement be
then lyvynge sholde be unto unto my said sonne Thomas duringe his lyf of the said Anne Graye
as by my said will afore made playnly apperithe whiche legacyes made unto my
said iij sonnes and every of them concerning the said manours landis and ten(emen)tis I revoke
and adnull by this my present will and for Recompense wherof I will that my said...
Cley Coton, Northamptonshire.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol4/pp595-610
28. Tho. marquis of Dorset. Grant, in fee, of the park called Beamount Lease, alias Beamount Wood, Leic., adjoining the King's park of Leicestre Fryth, and of Barden park, Leic.; in exchange for the Marquis's manor of Cley-Coton, Northt. Del. Westm., 28 May 17 Hen. VIII.—S.B.
I am interested in any references to Edward Wootton and Charles Brandon Duke of Suffolk (Brother-in-Law of Henry VIII), as I am a bit of a collector of photocopy prints and images of documents relating to the Manor of Stockingford, alias Stokyngforth and Stoccingford & others), mine are photocopy prints of those in the Aston Charters (now in the British Library Dept of MSS).
The Manors of Stockingford were at the place called Galley Common, where finds date back 2,000 years. A Map of the Plot of Galley Common was drawn in 1590 for an Exchequer Case held in the time of Elizabeth I. The documents say the map was based on a description in an ancient Deed of Hughe Lylborne. Hugh Lilleburn registered / held property at Stockingford in 1280.
Stockingford from John Nichols, The History and Antiquities of the County of Leicester
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=752119.msg6005900#msg6005900
Monument to Henry Grey Duke of Suffolk Lord of the Manor of Astley, where a Hollow Oak once stood
https://www.ourwarwickshire.org.uk/content/catalogue_her/duke-of-suffolks-monument-astley
Enerdale mentioned earlier is Ennerdale, Cumbria. River Ehen. Apparently forfeited by Henry Duke of Suffolk, Father of Lady Jane Grey.
Mark
Thank you so much, Mark! More and more pieces falling into place. Yes, they are an extremely interesting family, aren't they? :)
Yes, I have been thinking about that too, as we have been going through pages and pages of listing of manors only for him to lose them all ...
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I wonder if it somehow relates to the fact that he sounds as if he's signing off here (fixing his seal, day and year aforesaid, etc.), but in practice the will goes on much further? I'm still thinking about it ...
I have a dim memory of seeing catalogue descriptions of old documents in which the type of seals which hang off the bottom of the main parchment were described as being yoked.
The line is: ...have to this my wyll put my seale...
Is the PCC copyist helpfully qualifying the written statement with the exact location of the seal?
While the word has a contraction mark, plenty of words in this will bear marks yet the nature of the contraction is unclear or apparently negligible. Tomason is one; I couldn't see an obvious contraction and didn't want to force one, so just transcribed it as written.
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Snippet #27:
...sonne asmoche mony as the said londes and ten(emen)tes callid Leysthropp lackithe of the yerelye
value of xl li And I will allso to my said sonne Thomas that Immediatly after he comythe to the
age of xxi yeres Bardon Parke in the countie of leic(estre) the manour of Stokede(n)nysse in the
countie of Somers(ett) to have to hyme duringe the lyfe of the said Anne Graye now wife to s(ir)
Richarde Clement and after hur decease and after my said sonne Thomas comythe to to thage
of xxi yeres I will and gyve to my said sonne Thomas my said manour off Bosworthe w(i)t(h)...
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Snippet #28:
...thappurten(a)nces and all my landis and tenementes and other hereditamentes in Bossworthe in the
countie of Leicestr to have to hym for terme of his lyfe And allso I will that if the said Bardon park
and the said manour of Stokedennysse be not of the yerelye value of xl li above all charges yt
myne Executours or one of them shall assigne other of my Landis and tenementes to make in all to
the yerely valeue of xl li and that Landis and ten(emen)tis so to be assignid shalbe also to my said sonne
for terme of Lyfe of the said Lady Anne Graye and till the said assignement be had I will that my
Executours or one of them shall yerely content and paye unto my said sonne Thomas as moche
monye as the said manours landis and tenementes callyd Bardon parke and Stokedennysse
lackith of the yerely value of xl li And I will also that if anny of my manours shall fortune...
NOTES:
I have transcribed the money amounts in these snippets as xl li for clarity. They are written xlli.
In the name of Stokedennysse one or both ns could be a v.
I have done a quick search for a Stoke Dennis or Stoke Devyse in Leicestershire without luck.
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I wonder if it somehow relates to the fact that he sounds as if he's signing off here (fixing his seal, day and year aforesaid, etc.), but in practice the will goes on much further? I'm still thinking about it ...
I have a dim memory of seeing catalogue descriptions of old documents in which the type of seals which hang off the bottom of the main parchment were described as being yoked.
The line is: ...have to this my wyll put my seale...
Is the PCC copyist helpfully qualifying the written statement with the exact location of the seal?
While the word has a contraction mark, plenty of words in this will bear marks yet the nature of the contraction is unclear or apparently negligible
Yes, I'm sure yoken is the right answer to this. Well done.
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I wonder if it somehow relates to the fact that he sounds as if he's signing off here (fixing his seal, day and year aforesaid, etc.), but in practice the will goes on much further? I'm still thinking about it ...
I have a dim memory of seeing catalogue descriptions of old documents in which the type of seals which hang off the bottom of the main parchment were described as being yoked.
The line is: ...have to this my wyll put my seale...
Is the PCC copyist helpfully qualifying the written statement with the exact location of the seal?
While the word has a contraction mark, plenty of words in this will bear marks yet the nature of the contraction is unclear or apparently negligible
Yes, I'm sure yoken is the right answer to this. Well done.
Yes, that must be it! Brilliantly deducted! :) :D :) What would I have done without you?
... he sounds as if he's signing off here (fixing his seal, day and year aforesaid, etc.), but in practice the will goes on much further
I noticed that too, Bookbox. That was so weird.
Thank you so much again, everybody! :) :-* :)
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Snippet #29:
...to be assignid to my said sonnes or anny of them to make of their yerely value of xl li that none
of my manours landes and ten(emen)tes gyven wyllid or assignid by me shalbe no parte therof and
I will allso that my lorde my fathers will be p(er)fourmed and fullfillid w(i)t(h) spede and diligence with
the rentes Issues and proffittes of all suche Manours londes and ten(emen)tis as to me frome hym discendid
Suche exceptide and forprisid as by me be willid gyven granntid or asigned to my said wif and to
my said sonnes or to any other parsone or p(ar)sonnes And I will allso that my lady my mothers...
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Snippet #30:
...will be with spede and diligence fulfillid and p(er)fourmed w(i)t(h) the rentes Issues and proffittes of all
suche manours landis and ten(emen)tis liable to the parfourmannce of her will and I will allso
that next after my funerall and myn owne debtes contentid and paid that myne executours
withe spede and diligence shall make and buylde a Chappell of Asteleye accordinge to the
will of my lorde my father and to be made after suche goodly fashion as by the discrescion of...
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Oh, thank you, HD!!! :) :D :) This is so wonderful!
He is trying so hard to be fair.
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That was incredibly speedy and good work, HD! :) :) :)
And I will that Elizabeth Stafferton wif to Cristofer Stafferton have yerely out of the said Manours landes and ten(emen)ts in Growby aforeaid lxvjs viijd for terme of hir lyff
I think I found Cristofer Stafferton:
STAVERTON (STAFFERTON), Christopher (by 1517-57 or later), of Aldenham, Herts. and London - History of Parliament Online
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/staverton-%28stafferton%29-christopher-1517-57-or-later (http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/staverton-%28stafferton%29-christopher-1517-57-or-later)
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Snippet 31
... myne executours shalbe thought moste best and Convenient And in like maner a goodly tombe
to be made over my lorde my father and my lady my mother and after that done my tombe
to be made at Asteley in the mydd(es) of the channcell where I entendid god willinge to be buryed
And after the said thinges so doon I will that myne Executours at Asteley aforesaid sufficiently ^buyld^ &
make and Almes house* convenient by their discrescions for xiij pore men there to enhabite and
dwell In all whiche costes and charges to the buyldinge and makinge of all the premiss(es) shalbe ...
* presumably = an Almes house
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Snippet 32
... receyvid levid and takyn by myne executours of all suche manours Landes and tenementis
whiche I before have declarid and namid to the p(er)fourmannce of my will And I will that ev(er)y
of the said xiij pore men frome tyme to tyme for ever shalbe named assignid and appointed
by myn executours duringe their lyves And after their decease by myn heyres And I will
to every of the said poore men wekely xij d and yerely alyverye* of blacke Cotton price iiij s
Allso I will my manours of Bedworthe and packington And all my landes and ten(emen)tis in ...
* = a livery
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Oh, thank you so much, Bookbox!!! :) :D :)
I am still so in awe of how you do this!
He appears to have been very fond of his father. Probably one of them lovable rakes, if the wills of his son, his widow and his ex-mistress are anything to go by. The one thing they all seem to be able to agree on is that they all loved him.
The ex-mistress would probably have loved to be buried next to him too, if decency had at all allowed her.
Thank you so much again, Bookbox!!! :) :) :)
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Also, I love all of the gifts to diverse charitable foundations! (And the assorted hermit.) That is a real change from pre- to post-reformation wills.
This is such great work! Thank you so much :) :-* :)
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Snippets 33 & 34
Bedworthe and Packynton and the rents issues and proffitts of the same, And all Landas
and tents which were lately in the occupacion of my lorde lyle reputed and takyn as p(ar)cell
of the same lordeshippes shalbe to the use and intente that myn executours shall take the
proffitts of the same to the use and intente that they shall pay every mounthe to every of
the said pore men their wagis and stipend as is abovesaide and their lynary yerely
Also I will that every of the said pore men continually shalbe namyde and appointed
by my lady my wife duringe hur lyfe, And after hur decease by myne heires And I will
that after the death of my said executours that myn heires shall receyve the issues rents
and proffitts of the said ij manno(ur)s landis and tentis in Bedworthe and Packington, And all
other the premyss that werr lately receverid by aform(entioned) title against the said lorde lysley to
I think 'lynary' would possibly be their 'linen' - ie, new underclothes!
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I think 'lynary' would possibly be their 'linen' - ie, new underclothes!
Or perhaps livary, like lyverye in #32 above, meaning 'uniform'.
The last line of #34 could be ... werr lately recoverid by a form(er) title ... ?
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Snippets 33 & 34
Bedworthe and Packynton and the rents issues and proffitts of the same, And all Landas
and tents which were lately in the occupacion of my lorde lyle reputed and takyn as p(ar)cell
of the same lordeshippes shalbe to the use and intente that myn executours shall take the
proffitts of the same to the use and intente that they shall pay every mounthe to every of
the said pore men their wagis and stipend as is abovesaide and their lynary yerely
Also I will that every of the said pore men continually shalbe namyde and appointed
by my lady my wife duringe hur lyfe, And after hur decease by myne heires And I will
that after the death of my said executours that myn heires shall receyve the issues rents
and proffitts of the said ij manno(ur)s landis and tentis in Bedworthe and Packington, And all
other the premyss that werr lately receverid by aform(entioned) title against the said lorde lysley to
I think 'lynary' would possibly be their 'linen' - ie, new underclothes!
Goodness! He was detail-oriented, wasn't he! Lololol ;D :D ;D
my lorde lyle or lysley - Probably this chap:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Plantagenet,_1st_Viscount_Lisle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Plantagenet,_1st_Viscount_Lisle)
He was Elizabeth of York's half-brother, the illegitimate son of her father Edward IV. And for many years a favoured courtier of Henry VIII :) The Anne Basset I mentioned earlier was actually his step-daughter!
He is the only fit for the title in 1530. Earlier it would have belonged to Charles Brandon, later to Ambrose Dudley :)
Thank you so much, goldie, this is wonderful! :) :D :) He is fairly entertaining, our Marquis, isn't he? I am beginning to understand why Henry VIII kept him around *g*
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I think 'lynary' would possibly be their 'linen' - ie, new underclothes!
Or perhaps livary, like lyverye in #32 above, meaning 'uniform'.
Ah, yes, that would make sense too ;D :) ;D
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The last line of #34 could be ... werr lately recoverid by a form(er) title ... ?
Ooh, yes, a little bit of intrigue there between competing courtiers, perhaps? :) :) :)
So well done, goldie and Bookbox!!!
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Willow reply #80. Incorrect Roman numerals for Elizabeth of York's father.
I made a similar mistake in a history exam at school.
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Snippet 35
... and for the continuall payment of the said pore men that shalbe from tyme to tyme assignid
namid and appoyntid to be put into the same house to thentent* that pore men may ever
contynewe in the said Almes house and I will that all suche rent(es) issues and proffitt(es)
that shall growe of the said ij manours londis and ten(emen)tis in Bedworthe and packington
and other the premiss(es) over and beyond suche as shalbe contentid spent and paid to the ...
* = the intent
Snippet 36
... said pore men and their uses as is abovesaide shalbe for the maynten(a)nce and reparacion
of the said almes houses and the residue bey^o^ned that if anny be shalbe disposed and gyven
yerely the day of my deceas by myne executours duringe their tyme And after their deceas ...
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I think 'lynary' would possibly be their 'linen' - ie, new underclothes!
Or perhaps livary, like lyverye in #32 above, meaning 'uniform'.
The last line of #34 could be ... werr lately recoverid by a form(er) title ... ?
Sounds good.
I haven't read all the previous posts, so didn't know 'livery' had come up before. (Getting to be many pages now).
Though wouldn't put it past him to itemise new underclothes!
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Willow reply #80. Incorrect Roman numerals for Elizabeth of York's father.
I made a similar mistake in a history exam at school.
Thanks, Maiden Stone, fixed it :) I remembered that Henry VIII's son was the sixth in the line, Edward VI, so I figured I'd just subtract one to get her father. Forgot that that of course would have been one of the Princes in the Tower, poor little mite.
My favourite portrait of the Princes in the Tower:
http://www.spookyisles.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/The-Two-Princes-Edward-and-Richard-in-the-Tower-1483-by-Sir-John-Everett-Millais-1878.jpg (http://www.spookyisles.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/The-Two-Princes-Edward-and-Richard-in-the-Tower-1483-by-Sir-John-Everett-Millais-1878.jpg)
Poor kids.
Phenomenal work as always, Bookbox!!! Thank you so much :) :D :)
Though wouldn't put it past him to itemise new underclothes!
I wouldn't have put it past him, either, goldie, lololol :) 8) :D Poor maidens, hermits, this guy had got it going on!
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Snippet #37:
...by myne heires to preestis clerkis and pore folkes and ^dirigie^ masse to be said yerely at the day of the makinge
of the said dole and I will that all suche parsonnes as now be seasid or herafter shall fortune to be
seasid of the said ij manours of Bedworthe and Packynton and of all landis and tenementes in
Bedworthe and Pakyngton and other the premissz aforesaid shall stande and be seased to all
suche uses and Intentes as is afore declarid of the said ij Manours And I will that suche orisyons...
orisyons = orisons
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Actually, Edward IV, Elizabeth of York's father, had several illegitimate children that ended up in her household after she was grown. I seem to recall a Grace Plantagenet as well.
Elizabeth seemed very fond of them. She had lost no less than three brothers when her uncle Richard took the throne. The Princes in the Tower, Edward V and Richard of Shrewsbury, her full siblings, and Richard Grey, her half-brother, the full uncle of our testator.
Edward IV seem to have been another one of 'em lovable rascals. Elizabeth of course had been the apple of her father's eye until his death.
Speaking of lovable rascals, our Marquis #1: Even if Marquis #2 and the wife had been inclined to allow ex-mistress Lady Scrope into the fancy shmancy tomb they were all planning (and seemingly successfully built, going by the drawing below of the still extant effigy of Cecily Bonville, Marchioness of Dorset) they were probably afraid of setting a dangerous precendent. If they had let them all in there, the place probably would have started to look like an underground parking lot.
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Oh, thank you so much, HD!!! :) :D :) That is amazing! :) :-* :)
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Snippet #38:
...and prayers as shalbe said by the said pore men for me and myne Anncestours w(i)t(h) such attendannce
as they shalbe bounde to gyve shalbe declarid and made by me or myne executours and written
in a table to be sett in the said College of Asteley I will to my suster Cicelye now wife to sir
John Dudley my manour of Mocheglen in the countie of Leicestr and all my landis and
ten(emen)tis in Moche(g)len within the said countie for terme of hur lyfe to Avanncement of hur better
lyvinge And allso meate and drinke yerely for her her manne s(er)v(a)nt and woman serv(a)nt...
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Oh, thank you, HD!!! This is wonderful! :) :D :)
Sir John Dudley must have been this man:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sutton,_3rd_Baron_Dudley
He was indeed married to Thomas's sister Cecily, or Cicelye.
In February 1537 - seven years after this will was written, and a little over six years after her brother died - Cecily Sutton wrote to Henry VIII's chief minister, Thomas Cromwell, complaining of the poverty in which she and her husband were forced to live.
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It was very kind of him to single her out among his siblings for an inheritance :)
It is strange how someone's last will and testament can bring someone so much to life :) :) :)
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Snippet #39:
...duringe her lyfe to be taken with my lady my wiff or elles yer(e)ly xxli duringe hur lyfe to
be paid by myne executours of the rentes Issues and proffittes of my manours londis and ten(emen)tes
towardes the charges of hur meate and drinke whersoever she shalbe The one of them at hur
pleasure to be takyn I will allso the rentes issues and proffites of my manour of Bosworth shalbe
receyvid by myne executours towardes the p(er)fourmannce of my will unto suche a tyme my...
That's all from me for today.
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That's all from me for today.
Thank you so much, HD. You have gone above and beyond today, truly :) :) :)
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Snippet #40:
...suster Anne Graye and sir Richarde Clement now her husband have extinguisshid realeased
and determyned all suche right ^use^ and Interest as she hathe to the Manour of Hartwell in the
Countie of Northampton unto thuse of the kynge [our?] soverayne Lord and of his heyres And unto
suche a tyme allso that she and s(ir) Richard Clement have released extinguisshid and determynid
all hur ryght use and interest whiche she the said lady Anne hathe to the Manour of Leysthropp
in the Countie of Leic(estre) or anny other parsonne to hur use to the use of me the said Margues and...
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Thank you so much, HD!!! This is wonderful :) :D :)
We are nearing end of it now, only about a page or so left. I think we have gone through about seven(!). And still he has not named all of his daughters ...
I will to my suster Cicelye now wife to sir John Dudley my manour of Mocheglen in the countie of Leicestr and all my landis and ten(emen)tis in Moche(g)len within the said countie for terme of hur lyfe to Avanncement of hur better lyvinge And allso meate and drinke yerely for her her manne s(er)v(a)nt and woman serv(a)nt duringe her lyfe to be taken with my lady my wiff or elles yer(e)ly xxli duringe hur lyfe to be paid by myne executours of the rentes Issues and proffittes of my manours londis and ten(emen)tes towardes the charges of hur meate and drinke whersoever she shalbe
I am not entirely sure I understand this part. What does he mean?
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This is the guy who was the architecht of the poverty and unhappiness of the testator's sister Cecily, through a series of ruinous machinations against her husband, his cousin:
John Dudley, 1st Duke of Northumberland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dudley,_1st_Duke_of_Northumberland#/media/File:John_Dudley_(Knole,_Kent).jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dudley,_1st_Duke_of_Northumberland#/media/File:John_Dudley_(Knole,_Kent).jpg)
He was the father of Ambrose Dudley, Robert Dudley, Guildford Dudley and Henry Dudley.
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Snippet #41:
...to myne heyres and to the p(er)fourmannce of my laste will And Immediatly after hur said right
use and title extinguisshid and determyned I will that the said manour of Bosworth and
all my landis and tenementes in Bosworthe shalbe to thuse of my said Suster Anne for terme
of hur lyfe in full satisfaccion and recompense of suche intrest Right use and titile whiche
she the said lady Anne hathe to the manours of Hartewell and Leisthropp so that the said
Richarde Clemet and lady Anne upon a request to them or to the said lady Anne to be made by...
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I will to my suster Cicelye now wife to sir John Dudley my manour of Mocheglen in the countie of Leicestr and all my landis and ten(emen)tis in Moche(g)len within the said countie for terme of hur lyfe to Avanncement of hur better lyvinge And allso meate and drinke yerely for her her manne s(er)v(a)nt and woman serv(a)nt duringe her lyfe to be taken with my lady my wiff or elles yer(e)ly xxli duringe hur lyfe to be paid by myne executours of the rentes Issues and proffittes of my manours londis and ten(emen)tes towardes the charges of hur meate and drinke whersoever she shalbe
I am not entirely sure I understand this part. What does he mean?
Did he mean that Cicely, his sister, sometimes stayed with his lady wife and when she did, she was to have free board for herself and 2 servants, one of each sex? She was also to receive an annual food & drink allowance of £22 towards expense of feeding herself, a manservant and a female servant.
A gentlewoman would have needed a minimum of 1 servant of each gender; a female servant to act as personal maid and a manservant to do heavy tasks, look after horses and act as protection when travelling.
I've just read your post about John Dudley. I'd already conjectured that Cicely's husband was not keeping her in the manner to which she was accustomed, hence the bequest "to Avanncement of hur better lyvinge".
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I was writing this when Maiden Stone posted. My thoughts are similar to MS's.
However, I read it that the 20 li per annum is instead of the meat & drink bequest.
***********************************************************************************
I read the passage as meaning that Cicelye, plus one man servant & one woman servant, will be given food and drink at the house of the Marquess's wife while Cicelye is alive.
It's not quite clear what the word yerely signifies. Perhaps there was a custom established for Cicelye to stay at the Marquess's house for a certain period every year.
It seems to me that the gift is qualified by the use of the word yerely - that it isn't his intention that Cicelye & her servants should stay at Anne's table constantly.
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Snippet #42:
...myne executours or by any of them make a lease by their dede indentid to myne executours or
to as many of them as will accept the same of the said manour of Bosworth and of all my
landis and tenementes in Bosworthe to have to my said executours that will accept the same
for terme of lx yeres res(er)vinge upon the said lease so to be made to the said Richarde and lady
Anne a C markes yerely to be paid at the feastes of saint Michaell tharchangell and the...
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Thank you so much, HD!!! :) :D :) I honestly don't know what I would have done without you guys. With all of the research I (and others through the years, not to mention!) have done on this family, I don't think anybody has ever translated this will properly before. There are too many interesting tidbits here that has never been mentioned anywhere else.
Poor guy. The situation with Lady Anne Grey is really stressing him out :)
I will to my suster Cicelye now wife to sir John Dudley my manour of Mocheglen in the countie of Leicestr and all my landis and ten(emen)tis in Moche(g)len within the said countie for terme of hur lyfe to Avanncement of hur better lyvinge And allso meate and drinke yerely for her her manne s(er)v(a)nt and woman serv(a)nt duringe her lyfe to be taken with my lady my wiff or elles yer(e)ly xxli duringe hur lyfe to be paid by myne executours of the rentes Issues and proffittes of my manours londis and ten(emen)tes towardes the charges of hur meate and drinke whersoever she shalbe
I am not entirely sure I understand this part. What does he mean?
Did he mean that Cicely, his sister, sometimes stayed with his lady wife and when she did, she was to have free board for herself and 2 servants, one of each sex? She was also to receive an annual food & drink allowance of £22 towards expense of feeding herself, a manservant and a female servant.
A gentlewoman would have needed a minimum of 1 servant of each gender; a female servant to act as personal maid and a manservant to do heavy tasks, look after horses and act as protection when travelling.
I've just read your post about John Dudley. I'd already conjectured that Cicely's husband was not keeping her in the manner to which she was accustomed, hence the bequest "to Avanncement of hur better lyvinge".
Yes, lololol :) Clearly that other John Dudley/Sutton was falling down badly on the job, lololol ;D
I was writing this when Maiden Stone posted. My thoughts are similar to MS's.
However, I read it that the 20 li per annum is instead of the meat & drink bequest.
***********************************************************************************
I read the passage as meaning that Cicelye, plus one man servant & one woman servant, will be given food and drink at the house of the Marquess's wife while Cicelye is alive.
It's not quite clear what the word yerely signifies. Perhaps there was a custom established for Cicelye to stay at the Marquess's house for a certain period every year.
It seems to me that the gift is qualified by the use of the word yerely - that it isn't his intention that Cicelye & her servants should stay at Anne's table constantly.
These are both great theories, thanks! :) Very helpful. I could not figure out at all what he meant!
Thank you so much again! :) :D :)
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Snippet 43
... Annunciacion of our lady by even porcions and for default of none payment within three
Monythis next after every of the said feastes with a clause of reenter to be conteynid in the same
Indenture and allso with a p(ro)oviyso[?] to be conteynid in the same that if the said lady Anne dye
within the said terme the said lease to cease and and* determyne and I will further that if
any Ambiguite or doute apere in this my will I will that all suche Ambiguytes and doutes ...
* repeated in error
Snippet 44
... shalbe declarid and made open by myne executours or by the more parte of them that will
take uppon them the Execution of the same And as they shall declare and open it I will yt
shall stande for my last will concerninge all suche thinges doughtfull and I will that
myne executours agre with my said suster Anne reasonably for suche Arrerag(es) as be to her
due for the said Manours of hartwell and leistropp and for all other causis betwene her & me
In witnes whe^r^of this to be my last will and Thestament over and beyonde my will in ...
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Re reply 103 by Bookbox. Feast of the Annunciation is 25th March, also known as Lady Day and one of the quarter days, a traditional day for leases to begin & end and rents to be paid.
Feast of Michaelmas (horselydown reply #101) was gradually downgraded after Reformation and replaced by Harvest Festival.
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Thank you so much, Bookbox! :) :D :) How incredibly distressed he is about this 'my sister Anne' situation!
Annunciacion of our lady
feastes of saint Michaell tharchangell
I love this way of telling time! :) :) :)
Thank you so much again! I am so grateful for this. I would never have been able to this on my own. I thought 'today' was rather well spotted :) :D :)
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Re reply 103 by Bookbox. Feast of the Annunciation is 25th March, also known as Lady Day and one of the quarter days, a traditional day for leases to begin & end and rents to be paid.
Feast of Michaelmas (horselydown reply #101) was gradually downgraded after Reformation and replaced by Harvest Festival.
That is so cool, Maiden Stone! And a little sad :) I love these old festivals and their names and how they used to celebrate them! I wish more of them had survived into modern time. Like Lord Misrule at Christmas. That must have been so fun! Apparently Henry VIII and then Mary I and then Elizabeth I outlawed a lot of them.
Killjoys :)
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Re reply 103 by Bookbox. Feast of the Annunciation is 25th March, also known as Lady Day and one of the quarter days, a traditional day for leases to begin & end and rents to be paid.
Feast of Michaelmas (horselydown reply #101) was gradually downgraded after Reformation and replaced by Harvest Festival.
That is so cool, Maiden Stone! And a little sad :) I love these old festivals and their names and how they used to celebrate them! I wish more of them had survived into modern time. Like Lord Misrule at Christmas. That must have been so fun! Apparently Henry VIII and then Mary I and then Elizabeth I outlawed a lot of them.
Killjoys :)
I should have said that the celebration of Michaelmas Feast was downgraded and replaced by Harvest Festival. Michaelmas festivities considered too "Romish" for the new order.
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Re reply 103 by Bookbox. Feast of the Annunciation is 25th March, also known as Lady Day and one of the quarter days, a traditional day for leases to begin & end and rents to be paid.
Feast of Michaelmas (horselydown reply #101) was gradually downgraded after Reformation and replaced by Harvest Festival.
That is so cool, Maiden Stone! And a little sad :) I love these old festivals and their names and how they used to celebrate them! I wish more of them had survived into modern time. Like Lord Misrule at Christmas. That must have been so fun! Apparently Henry VIII and then Mary I and then Elizabeth I outlawed a lot of them.
Killjoys :)
I should have said that the celebration of Michaelmas Feast was downgraded and replaced by Harvest Festival. Michaelmas festivities considered too "Romish" for the new order.
Yes. And that is very sad, in its way :) There are so many people who want to remove the relatively innocent fun that people get up to. Like Halloween and Valentine's Day. I think some of those 'Romish' holidays would have been fun to have :)
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Snippet #45:
...this my present wrytinge before declarid I have subscribid myne name and wheras I before
in this my present will have constitute and orderid my Eterly welbelovid lady Margaret
my wif and my speciall frendis Cutbert Tunstall Busshiop of Durh(a)m Sir John ffitziames
Cheif Justice of the kinges benche william Shelley one of the kynges Justicz of his comon place
Edwarde wotton knyght william Ashebye Esquire and Robert Broke to be my executours of
this my last will and Testament I have now constitute and ordeyned Mathew knyghtley doctour
of Cossington william horwood gentilman and Christofer wren gentilman to be lyke other
I would read Eterly as utterly.
ADDED:
I mistakenly called his wife Anne in my Reply #100 - shouldn't have relied on memory.
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Snippet #46:
myn ex
Short for myne executours, which words commence the following page.
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Snippet #45:
...this my present wrytinge before declarid I have subscribid myne name and wheras I before
in this my present will have constitute and orderid my Eterly welbelovid lady Margaret
my wif and my speciall frendis Cutbert Tunstall Busshiop of Durh(a)m Sir John ffitziames
Cheif Justice of the kinges benche william Shelley one of the kynges Justicz of his comon place
Edwarde wotton knyght william Ashebye Esquire and Robert Broke to be my executours of
this my last will and Testament I have now constitute and ordeyned Mathew knyghtley doctour
of Cossington william horwood gentilman and Christofer wren gentilman to be lyke other
I would read Eterly as utterly.
ADDED:
I mistakenly called his wife Anne in my Reply #100 - shouldn't have relied on memory.
It happens to the best of us, HD, as it clearly has in this case :)
I agree about Eterly being utterly.
The phrase well-beloved wife is repeated in many wills. Was it merely politeness and custom, do you think, or did it betray genuine sentiment? Or both?
Thank you so much!!! :) :D :) I really cannot thank you enough!
This has been an utterly wonderful help :)
Including the two snippets I am posting now, there are only four left, then we are DONE :) :D :)
Though I am going to miss this will a little bit, he has provided us with a lot (albeit probably unintentional) of fun :) :) :)
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Snippet 47
... myne executours annexid and adioyned to and with my forsaid lady my wife and other my(n) executo(ur)s
as or before named in this my present will to and for the further p(er)fourmance and execution of this
my laste will and allso I bequeth and gyve unto my soverayne lorde the kynge one of my best
geldinges and one hundrithe pound(es) in sofferanns to by his grace a sadale* and allso I bequethe
unto his grace a coople of my best houndes allso I will and bequethe unto my lady Anne Boleyne
xx li Allso I will and bequeth to Thomas nowe Duke of Norff(olk) xl li Allso I will and bequethe to
Charles nowe Duke of Suffolke xl li And allso I will and bequethe unto John now lorde of Oxford
xxx li Allso I will and bequethe to shr [sir?] William Fitzwill(ia)m now Channcelour of the duchie xx li
Allso I will and bequethe to sir Henry Gulford now Comptroller of the kynges house xx li Allso ...
* = in sovereigns, to buy His Grace a saddle (probably)
Snippet 48
... I will and bequethe to doctour Stephyns nowe secretarye unto the kynges grace xx li Allso I will
and Bequethe to Mary Coplay x li to her mariage Allso I will and bequethe to Anne Elmar[?]**
to hur mariage x li Item I will and bequethe to Cicele Howarde x li to hur mariage Allso I will
and bequethe to Elenour Palmer x li to her mariage Allso I will and bequethe to Elizabethe
Charde to hur mariage x li And allso I will that Hugh whitfelde have yerely out of my
Manour londis and ten(emen)tis in Growbye xl s for terme of his lyfe And allso I will that John wor- ...
** could be a longer name, abbreviated
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WOW!!! That was amazing! :) :D :) I got gooseflesh reading that! How weird to see their names in original writing like that, mentioned casually by people who knew them personally!!! :) :) :)
A few of these people, I trust, need no introduction :)
my soverayne lorde the kynge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England)
my lady Anne Boleyne
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Boleyn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Boleyn)
Thomas nowe Duke of Norff(olk) - The uncle of Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Howard,_3rd_Duke_of_Norfolk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Howard,_3rd_Duke_of_Norfolk)
Charles nowe Duke of Suffolke - His daughter Frances would later marry the testator's son Henry, with great tragedy as the result for their three daughters, Lady Jane Grey, Lady Katherine Grey, and Lady Mary Grey:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Brandon,_1st_Duke_of_Suffolk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Brandon,_1st_Duke_of_Suffolk)
A little bit more unknowns: :)
shr [sir?] William Fitzwill(ia)m now Channcelour of the duchie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_FitzWilliam,_1st_Earl_of_Southampton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_FitzWilliam,_1st_Earl_of_Southampton)
sir Henry Gulford now Comptroller of the kynges house - The testator's brother-in-law, he was married to my well-beloved Margaret's sister Mary :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Guildford (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Guildford)
Thank you so much, Bookbox!!! You are amazing :) Stellar work, as always!!! :) :D :)
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Elenour Palmer (died 1558) was an English philanthropist who established a charity to help the poor of Chipping Barnet and Kentish Town, now parts of London. Her charity still exists (!!!) and owns and runs almshouses and residential homes for the elderly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Palmer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Palmer)
That is quite impressive!
If that is the right Eleanor Palmer, she would have already have been married once. Her first husband died in 1509, her second in 1542, so it might fit that this was a bequest towards her second marriage.
In one of those strange twists of fate, Eleanor Palmer's son Jerome (d.1565) married Eleanor, daughter of William Paget, 1st Baron Paget. William Paget, 1st Baron Paget (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Paget,_1st_Baron_Paget), would later buy the wardship of our Anne Grey, Lady Willoghby's eldest son Thomas, the testator's grandson, and had him married to his daughter Dorothy.
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Snippet 49
... (Wor)thington have yerely out of the said Manour landes and ten(emen)tis* in Growby xl s for terme of his lif
Allso I will and bequethe towardes the buyldinge and makinge upp of the chuche of our blyssid ...
* - contraction mark omitted
Snippet 50
... ladye of Tylltey within the countie of Essex one hundrith markes to be paid by myn executours
and they to paye yerely xx mark(es) untill the said somme of a C markes be fully paid
=====
I'll do the probate clause separately later this evening.
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Oh, thank you so much, Bookbox! :) :D :)
Tylltey (Tyltey, Tiltey, Tilty) appears to have been another name for where the Greys were from:
https://www.britainexpress.com/counties/essex/churches/tilty.htm (https://www.britainexpress.com/counties/essex/churches/tilty.htm)
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Snippet 50 – probate clause
Probatum fuit suprascriptum testamentum cora(m) d(omi)no apud Lamehith xviijo die mens(is) Novembris Anno D(omi)nj
mill(es)imo quingentesimo xxxjo Jurame(n)to D(omi)ne Margarete Relict(e) et executric(is) in h(uius)mo(d)i testamento no(m)i(n)at(e) Ac approbatu(m)
et insinuatum Et com(m)issa fuit admi(ni)strac(i)o o(mni)um et singulor(um) bonor(um) iur(iu)m et creditor(um) d(i)c(tu)m defunctum et h(uius)mo(d)i suu(m) testame(n)tum
qual(ite)rcumq(ue) concernen(tium) dict(e) executric(i) de bene et fidel(ite)r adm(in)istrand(o) ead(em) Ac de pleno et fideli Inventario h(uius)mo(d)i conficiend(o) &c
Necnon de plano et vero compoto reddend(o) Ad sancta dei Ev(a)ngelia iurat(e) in debita iuris forma Res(er)vata p(otes)tate similem
comissione(m) faciend(i) alijs executoribus in h(uius)mo(d)i testamento no(m)i(n)at(is) cum ven(er)int &c admissur(is).
The above-written will was proved before the lord at Lambeth on the 18th day of the month of November in the year of the Lord one thousand five hundred and thirty-one by the oath of Lady Margaret, the relict and the executrix named in this will; and it was approved and inserted (in the register); and administration of all and singular the goods, rights and credits of any kind whatsoever concerning the said deceased and this his will was granted to the said executrix, to well and faithfully administer the same; and to complete a full and faithful inventory etc. of this; and also to submit a plain and true account; sworn on the Holy Gospels of God in due form of law; power reserved of making the like grant to the other executors named in this will when they shall come etc. to be admitted.
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Oh, thank you so much, Bookbox!!! :) :D :) This was utterly wonderful!!! So impressive!!! :) I don’t understand how you do it, truly! Amazing :) :) :)
So my well-beloved Margaret ended up with all the responsibility herself, in spite of the impressive list of intended co-executors. Hm. I wonder if that was by her choice or not.
Thank you so much to everyone on this thread for all of your wonderful help!!! :) :) :) I could not be more grateful, nor more in awe of what you do :) :-* :)
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You're welcome. I expect we've all learnt something in the process. I certainly have.
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Yes, I have learned lots 😊😊😊 And gleaned a lot of interesting information from it that I would otherwise have had no possible way of obtaining. I have honestly had lots of fun with this 😊❤️😊
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So my well-beloved Margaret ended up with all the responsibility herself, in spite of the impressive list of intended co-executors. Hm. I wonder if that was by her choice or not.
As I understand it she was the one (or the first one) who went to swear the oath. "...power reserved of making the like grant to the other executors ... when they shall come etc. to be admitted."
The other executors might have been anywhere in the British Isles or beyond at the time. Perhaps that's one reason so many were named. Other reasons for multiple executors may be the complex instructions and properties spread out the length of England. (Only theories; I know nothing about wills from this period; my ancestors at the time were lowly shepherd sub-tenants of his lordship & would have had no need of wills.)
I read the potted biographies in some of the links you posted. It was mentioned that King Henry was apt to pile responsibilities on his associates with the result that they were overworked and administration became inefficient. One man was tasked with looking after affairs in a county in Southern England and on the Scottish border. He must have spent a lot of his life riding to all 4 points of the compass.
Another thought: maybe another reason for a long list of executors was to ensure that some of them would be around after he'd gone. Just in case any had lost their heads/died in battle/jousts/ of sweating sickness/been exiled/fled abroad etc. Uncertain times.
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You're welcome. I expect we've all learnt something in the process. I certainly have.
So have I.
I've come across many of these folk or their relatives in history books, novels and on TV. Interesting to read a document and learn more about the background.
I think the word "utterly" should be used more often these days."Utterly beloved". :)
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So my well-beloved Margaret ended up with all the responsibility herself, in spite of the impressive list of intended co-executors. Hm. I wonder if that was by her choice or not.
As I understand it she was the one (or the first one) who went to swear the oath. "...power reserved of making the like grant to the other executors ... when they shall come etc. to be admitted."
The other executors might have been anywhere in the British Isles or beyond at the time. Perhaps that's one reason so many were named. Other reasons for multiple executors may be the complex instructions and properties spread out the length of England. (Only theories; I know nothing about wills from this period; my ancestors at the time were lowly shepherd sub-tenants of his lordship & would have had no need of wills.)
I read the potted biographies in some of the links you posted. It was mentioned that King Henry was apt to pile responsibilities on his associates with the result that they were overworked and administration became inefficient. One man was tasked with looking after affairs in a county in Southern England and on the Scottish border. He must have spent a lot of his life riding to all 4 points of the compass.
Another thought: maybe another reason for a long list of executors was to ensure that some of them would be around after he'd gone. Just in case any had lost their heads/died in battle/jousts/ of sweating sickness/been exiled/fled abroad etc. Uncertain times.
I think this is a very good insight, Maiden Stone. The only thing that strikes me as weird is that Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquis of Dorset, date of death is uniformly given as 10th of October 1530, while probate was only granted on the 18th of November. That should have given at least one of the other executors the time and opportunity to get their affairs in order and be present ...
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You're welcome. I expect we've all learnt something in the process. I certainly have.
So have I.
I've come across many of these folk or their relatives in history books, novels and on TV. Interesting to read a document and learn more about the background.
I think the word "utterly" should be used more often these days."Utterly beloved". :)
Yes, I must admit that I have loved this entire process myself. We have brought them quite clearly to life, haven’t we? 😊
‘Utterly beloved’ is beautiful 😊😊😊
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Posting just in case anyone is interested in my findings on some more of the people mentioned in the will:
doctour Stephyns nowe secretarye unto the kynges grace - Probably this guy:
https://www.geni.com/people/Henry-Stephens-Esq/6000000003040758815 (https://www.geni.com/people/Henry-Stephens-Esq/6000000003040758815)
https://archive.org/stream/stevensgenealogy00stev#page/n29/search/Henry+Stephens (https://archive.org/stream/stevensgenealogy00stev#page/n29/search/Henry+Stephens)
Mary Coplay x li to her mariage
The testator was married to Margaret Wotton, through her marriage Marchioness of Dorset. Margaret Wotton was the daughter of Sir Robert Wotton and Anne Belknap. Anne Belknap's sister Alice Belknap married William Shelley. Alice Belknap's children Elizabeth Shelley and Thomas Shelley married another set of brother and sister, Sir Roger Copley and Mary Copley, in a double marriage between the families.
A double marriage between families was common at the time, coupling off two sets of siblings. The testator's son Henry Grey's marriage to Katherine FitzAlan and his sister Katherine Grey's marriage to Henry FitzAlan was meant to be just such a double marriage. Henry Grey, however, famously jilted her, saddling his family with gigantic debts for the broken betrothal, and fatefully married Frances Brandon instead.
Sir Roger Copley and Elizabeth Shelley's eldest son was born sometime around 1532/4 (sources vary), making it likely that the double marriage took place around shortly after the time of the testator's bequest.
If that is indeed the right Mary Coplay, she was the bride of the testator's wife's nephew.
https://www.geni.com/people/Sir-Roger-Copley-of-Gatton/6000000006444065515 (https://www.geni.com/people/Sir-Roger-Copley-of-Gatton/6000000006444065515)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Thomas_Copley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Thomas_Copley)
From Kate Emerson's excellent Who's Who of Tudor Women (which we are allowed to quote from as long as we give credit):
ALICE BELKNAP (c.1475-1537)
Alice Belknap was one of the six daughters of Henry Belknap of Crofton, Kent and Knell, Beccles, Sussex (d. July 3, 1488) and Margaret Knollys (1432-October 7, 1488) and the sister of Sir Edward Belknap (July 30, 1473-1521). She married William Shelley of London, Michelgrove, Sussex, and Mapledurham, Hampshire (1476-1549). The date of their marriage settlement is July 10, 1511, but they appear to have married before that date. Some sources say as early as 1500. They had seven sons and seven daughters including John (d. 1550), Thomas, Edward (d. September 10, 1547), Richard (1513/14-1589), Elizabeth (d. December 25, 1560), James, Margaret, and Catherine. In London they lived in the parish of St. Sepulcre and Shelley was assessed at 300 marks in goods in the subsidy of 1523. His lands were valued at £140 a year. Alice had a servant named Jane Smith (d.1529) to whom she gave the manuscript known as the “Belknap Hours.” Jane married John Onley of Catesby Northamptonshire (d. November 22, 1537), who may have been brought up in the Belknap household and whose entry at the Inner Temple was sponsored by William Shelley. Portrait: tomb effigy with husband and fourteen children in St. Mary the Virgin, Clapham, Sussex.
http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_i[d=646 (http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_i[d=646)
Edited to add: Jane married John Onley of Catesby Northamptonshire (d. November 22, 1537) - Our old friends the Onleys :)
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Anne Elmar[?]**could be a longer name, abbreviated
I searched a bit for an Anne Elmar or an Elmar family connected to the Greys, without result, until I came across this famous quote from the testator's granddaughter:
that I must go to M. Elmer, who teacheth me so ientlie, so pleasantlie
M. Elmer is better known to us as:
John Aymler:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Aylmer_(bishop) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Aylmer_(bishop))
John Aymler was born in 1521 at Aylmer Hall, Tivetshail St. Mary, Norfolk. While still a boy, his precocity was noticed by Henry Grey, Marquis of Dorset, afterwards Duke of Suffolk, who sent him to Cambridge, where he seems to have become a fellow of Queens' College. About 1541 he was made chaplain to the Duke, and tutor to his daughter, Lady Jane Grey.
Anne Aymler may have been his sister, or some other relation. The request to hur mariage x li does fit with a girl of maritable age, or one who soon will be. According to John Strype (https://books.google.no/books?id=eg-D_I0Y6SkC&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=Aylmer+family+Norfolk&source=bl&ots=kXbQZTRAFY&sig=fnGNHGFKpcZgj5NgrRdXrnvKFf0&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwil4p76toTdAhWsFJoKHQ5nA_gQ6AEwCXoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=Aylmer%20family%20Norfolk&f=false), John Aymler had an elder brother, Sir Robert Aylmer, of Aylmer Hall in Norfolk. It is not implausible that he should have had a sister of an age befitting the testator's bequest too.
(Tivetshail St. Mary appears to be this place:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilney_St_Lawrence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilney_St_Lawrence))
Using this version of the spelling, however, I found more Aylmers in connection with the Greys:
Frances Aylmer (also spelled Aelmer and Elmer), possibly mother of the above, served alongside Katherine Grey, Countess of Arundel, the testator's daughter, in the household of Princess Mary Tudor from 1525 until 1533. She returned to her service in 1536. Frances is probably the same Frances Aelmer whose will was proved March 21, 1540, since she makes reference in it to Sir William and Lady Butts (Margaret Bacon), who were also members of Mary's household. In a query to Notes and Queries in 1896, citing that will, the writer suggests that Frances might have been the mother of John Aylmer, Bishop of London (1520/21-June 3, 1594). This is certainly a possibility. The Oxford DNB entry for Aylmer list his parents as unknown. Online sources say he was the younger son of John Aylmer of Aylmer Hall in Tilney, Norfolk (John Aylmer had another son, Sir Robert Aylmer) but do not give life dates or a name for this senior John Aylmer’s wife.
https://www.geni.com/people/Frances-Aylmer/6000000012262247359 (https://www.geni.com/people/Frances-Aylmer/6000000012262247359)
http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_id=642 (http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_id=642)
There is yet another Aymler who had a connection to the Greys:
Sir Gerald Aylmer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Aylmer_(judge) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Aylmer_(judge))
In early life Sir Gerald Aylmer was loyal to Gerald FitzGerald, 9th Earl of Kildare when he served as sheriff of Limerick in the earlier 1520's. Gerald FitzGerald, 9th Earl of Kildare, was the testator's brother-in-law. He was married to the testator's sister, Elizabeth Grey. Although the testator appears to have been estranged from all of his many siblings, there is the possibility that some connection existed between the families, and at some point a girl named Anne, the daughter of some aquaintances of the FitzGeralds, endeared herself to the testator and was remembered in his will.
Sir Gerald Aymler did have a sister Anne who married Thomas Luttrell:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Luttrell_(Irish_judge)
According to Wikipedia, however, this marriage took place in 1506, so it can't be that Anne.
Luttrell married firstly, and apparently while he was still in his teens, Anne Aylmer, daughter of Bartholomew Aylmer and Margaret Cheevers, and sister of his future colleague Sir Gerald Aylmer.
In a family with one Anne, there will often be more, however. Sir Gerald Aylmer alone is described as having 'numerous descendants'.
I have been unable to establish if there is any relation between these two families with the surname of Aymler, or if it indeed could be the same family altogether.