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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Garen on Saturday 27 August 05 16:41 BST (UK)

Title: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Saturday 27 August 05 16:41 BST (UK)
Hello fellow researchers,

I'm new to this forum and just wanted to register my interest in this campaign (Afghanistan 1878 - 1880). I am happy to help with questions anyone might have, and I am also interested in hearing from the descendants of people who were involved in or around the war.

I have a lot of information at hand but am always interested in more. Queries are welcome, as I like to help out if I can, and it also forces me to look into different aspects of the campaign and I learn more for myself each time.

I have a website, which will be going through some bigger updates over the next few months, at http://www.angloafghanwar.info

All the best -
Garen.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: dortmund on Saturday 27 August 05 18:28 BST (UK)
Hi Garen,

My Great-Grandfather James Kersley (51st Regt of Foot) was at Ali Musid with the 51st, he later was the RSM of the 51st at Pontefract.


Trevor
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Saturday 27 August 05 18:44 BST (UK)
Hello Trevor,

As you probably know, the 51st had quite a busy time at Ali Musjid, even after the battle. One particularly exciting episode, a few days later, saw 200-300 Afridis rush a small piquet manned by just 17 men of the 51st - the attack was repulsed.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this link which publishes the diary of Colonel Ball-Acton, who commanded the 51st int he second phase of the war (second-in-command during the first phase).

http://www.parsonsfamily.co.uk/acton_afghan1.php
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: dortmund on Saturday 27 August 05 19:25 BST (UK)
Hi Garen,

Thanks for the info. I have attatched this below taken from The Bugle 1st Feb 1879 (the Bugle was the regimental mag of the 51st).

Trevor
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Saturday 27 August 05 19:40 BST (UK)
That's wonderful, Trevor, thanks so much for sharing it. The Khyber was a real hot-spot of trouble. If it wasn't Afridi tribesmen it was cholera!

Thank you again.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: liverpool annie on Saturday 27 August 05 20:57 BST (UK)





Garen - you probably have this already -  but I thought you might be interested!!

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~clday/regiments.htm

Annie
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Sunday 28 August 05 01:33 BST (UK)
Thank you for that one, Annie - it's already on my links page, a great resourceful site.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Monday 05 September 05 23:09 BST (UK)
Trevor -

I don't know if you are aware of the book 'Scenes Through the Battle Smoke' by the Rev. Arthur Male, but I was just researching through it (having read it a few years ago) when I came across the story you posted up about the Afghan in Sergeant Isaac Webster's tent..

"... With their lithe forms they [the Afghans] are accustomed to wriggle their tortuous course unseen along the ground, sheltered and concealed by every tiny bush or boulder. In this way, eluding most cunningly even the keen-eyed native sentries, they were known to creep into the very tents where the men were sleeping, to plunder, and even murder. A sergeant of the 51st, for instance, lying wakeful and restless in a tent under the very nose of a sentry, flung his hand careless over the side of his charpoy, and it alighted on the bare skull of one of these creeping robbers, who had got in and was lying there waiting for further opportunity. In a moment both men sprang up, and for a brief instant there was a life and death struggle. The Afghan, armed with his keen heavy knife, cut and slashed to free himself; while the sergeant, unarmed, and hampered with his heavy greatcoat, in which he was lying, could only hold on and shout for assistance. In rushed the guard, but out at the other side rushed the robber, breaking from his captor's grasp, whom he left behind bleeding from many a wound."

It's on page 76-77 (I have a c.1910 edition) - which you may already know.

Best -
Garen.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: dortmund on Tuesday 06 September 05 17:43 BST (UK)
Hi Garen,

Thanks for the extract, I was not aware of the book you quote, but I also have a copy of the Bugle extract and a copy of  Extracts from ‘History of the King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry’ by Col. H.C. Wylly, C.B., Volume 1.

Which also details the incident.

Trevor
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: chesters on Sunday 18 September 05 12:32 BST (UK)
My Great Great Grandfather was in the Afghan war, but I don't know his regiment or number.  I do have the medal though.

Do you know where I can find out any more details, like his regiment or other conflicts he was in?
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Sunday 18 September 05 12:36 BST (UK)
Hello chesters,

Is his name and regiment not on the medal? If not, can you describe the medal - ribbon, dates, any clasps, and the rough diameter of it? I have the medal roll at hand, so let me know a name and I could start a search, but it could take a while without his regiment.

More info at www.angloafghanwar.info

Best -
Garen.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: chesters on Sunday 18 September 05 12:50 BST (UK)
Hi Garen,

No, the name or regiment are not on the medal.  There is no ribbon, as its been made into a broach.  On the front it just says Afghanistan 1878-79-80 and has a picture of an elephant, with soldiers on horses behind the elephant.  It has Victoria on the back.  I measured the diameter as 3.6cm.  His name was Edwin Chesters, which isn't very common, so you might be able to find him.

Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Sunday 18 September 05 13:25 BST (UK)
Well - I found him pretty quickly! As you're interested in Cheshire and Staffordshire research I checked the first regiment I came across that was as local as possible, which was the 8th Foot (Liverpool, or The King's, regiment).

Private Edwin Chesters, no.1818, Afghan War medal, no clasps, 8th Foot.

The 8th were involved at the Peiwar Kotal battle (2 Dec 1878), but as Edwin has no clasp for that he must have missed it. He may have been part of the 2 companies under Captain Lewis that stayed behind to garrison Kohat. These 2 companies joined the rest of the regiment in the second campaign, after September 1879, in various works and holding the position at the Peiwar Kotal - including some minor actions against Mangals and Jagis. They returned to India in October 1880 when the Kurram Valley was evacuated. In the kurram Valley the regiment had suffered quite a bit of illness (usually cholera).

Hope this leads you to find out more.

Best -
Garen.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: chesters on Sunday 18 September 05 17:36 BST (UK)
Thats probably him.

Thanks again for the help Garen :)
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 19 May 06 15:54 BST (UK)
Hello,

I have decided to start a Yahoo Group for discussion and sharing of knowledge on the Anglo Afghan War 1878-1880 (and anything related). Part of the reason for this is that this is not a widely acknowledged campaign, and those of us with an interest are few and far between. The group will be a way we can keep in touch and let each other know of news, thoughts, ask questions or just discuss anything that comes under the subject heading.

I don't expect it to be a message list that is used heavily, or that grows quickly, but I do think it has the potential to be a fascinating resource and to help interest grow. From my own point of view, I hope it will encourage contributions and information for the Afghan War Database Project (www.angloafghanwar.info), but I also know I can learn from the great wealth of expertise that is out there, as well as answer any questions I may be able to help with. The messages will build a useful archive.

You do not have to be an expert or an academic to join this list. Hobbyists and family historians are most welcome to come and go as they please to seek or contribute information. Membership does not require contribution if you don't wish, as it also acts as a newsletter for www.angloafghanwar.info.

The Yahoo Group can be found at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/angloafghanwar/

My best regards -
Garen.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: dortmund on Friday 19 May 06 18:15 BST (UK)
Hi Garen,

Thanks for the site, I have joined.

Trevor
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 25 July 06 00:07 BST (UK)
I always said when the Afghan War database reached 500 participants I would go to public beta, and I made an effort tonight to add another 20 individuals to reach the 500. There is still work that needs doing to make the user experience a little smoother (it's a little slow sometimes), not to mention the fact that 500 people really isn't that many, but anyway, here it is:

http://www.angloafghanwar.info/database/main.php

The 500th entry was Sir Frederick Roberts himself, you can even search for him under Bobs!

Any improvements or thoughts on the database, I'll be glad to hear them.

All the best -
Garen.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: liverpool annie on Tuesday 25 July 06 00:35 BST (UK)


Very well done Garen !!

Congratulations .... what an addition to an already great site !!  :) :)

Annie  :)
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 26 July 06 17:46 BST (UK)
Many thanks, Annie.

 :D
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: vandab on Thursday 03 August 06 17:06 BST (UK)
Congratulations , just going now to have a good look,
Vanda :)
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Woodentop50 on Monday 12 February 07 12:02 GMT (UK)
Hello Garen,

I am hoping ,like many , that you can help me . I am researching my grand uncle.

Edward Wood  b.1859 Knottingley , West Yorkshire

1881 census :

Living at home with his parents in Hunslet nr. Leeds   single

under occupation it has 'in army 2/14 Regiment P W O   (no rank given)

If I have done my homework correct , I make this the 14th regiment of foot , Prince of Wales Own.

I know 1881 was a time of upheaval for British regiments , changing names and locations etc.

He appears in the 1891 census as a worker in Leeds.

What I would like to know is , would he have been in Afganistan , I see by your site that the British retreated in 1880.

It is appreciated that this is not very much to go on , but any pointers would be a help.

Please let me know if I have gone in the wrong direction.

                                                           Jim
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: dortmund on Monday 12 February 07 12:28 GMT (UK)
Hi Jim,

Welcome to the site.

Found this below in the Afghan War Medal Roll.

West Yorkshire Regt (14 Regt).

It looks as though he was entitled to the Afghan Medal.

Trevor
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Monday 12 February 07 12:44 GMT (UK)
Hello Jim,

Thanks for getting in touch. Trevor has saved me a look-up in the roll (thank you Trevor!) - it would be good for you to try and obtain your g-uncle's service record just to conform it's the same man - good chance it is.

Although he obtained no clasps with his medal, many men of the 14th (though not all) were involved in the little-known action of Mazina in the Afghan War - 20 May 1880 - when Brigadier W A Gib took on Ghulam Ahmed near Pesh Bolak, so maybe he saw action still.

It would be great to add your g-uncle's details to the database. Let me know if I can help with any more info.

Best - Garen.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Woodentop50 on Monday 12 February 07 13:39 GMT (UK)
Thank you to Garen and Dortmund ,

I weren't expecting two replies within 45 minutes , that's pretty impressive !

That info gives me something to look up at last. I hope he is the right one. Although it is a common name.

I shall certainly keep you posted on the outcome , whichever way it goes.

                                    Thanks again

                                                       Jim
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Les275 on Friday 27 February 09 22:41 GMT (UK)
Hello fellow researchers,

I'm new to this forum and just wanted to register my interest in this campaign (Afghanistan 1878 - 1880). I am happy to help with questions anyone might have, and I am also interested in hearing from the descendants of people who were involved in or around the war.

I have a lot of information at hand but am always interested in more. Queries are welcome, as I like to help out if I can, and it also forces me to look into different aspects of the campaign and I learn more for myself each time.

I have a website, which will be going through some bigger updates over the next few months, at http://www.angloafghanwar.info

All the best -
Garen.
My great grandfather was involved in the march from Kabul to Kandahar according to oral family history. I have found him as a bandsman with the 42nd Highlanders (which became the Black watch) in Plymouth, Malta and as an army pensioner.Is there any website which names soldiers who took part in the Afghan campaign?
Cheers
Les
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 27 February 09 23:52 GMT (UK)
Hello Les,

What was his name? I could check the medal roll. If he served with a Highland regiment in the Afghan campaign it would be the 72nd, 78th or 92nd (maybe 25th). If he was on the march to Kandahar with Roberts (as opposed to with Phayre) then it would be the 72nd or 92nd.

You could see if he's already on the database, but it's still quite a young project.

http://www.angloafghanwar.info/database/main.php

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Les275 on Saturday 28 February 09 16:34 GMT (UK)
Hello Les,

What was his name? I could check the medal roll. If he served with a Highland regiment in the Afghan campaign it would be the 72nd, 78th or 92nd (maybe 25th). If he was on the march to Kandahar with Roberts (as opposed to with Phayre) then it would be the 72nd or 92nd.

You could see if he's already on the database, but it's still quite a young project.

http://www.angloafghanwar.info/database/main.php

Best - Garen
can't believe I didn't give you his name - AOL was playing up last night and i typed the posting twice before it went through - sorry
His name was Robert Arthur Burton or Bertram Buswell. Born about 1842 died about 1896. The only notification I have of his regiment is on his daughters marriage cert and he was already dead by then. He is described as a bandsman with the 42nd Highland regiment.
Thank you
Les
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Saturday 28 February 09 16:50 GMT (UK)
Thanks Les. After a quick (but hopefully comprehensive) scan of the medal roll for the 72nd, 78th, 92nd and 25th I can't see a Robert Burton or anyone Buswell. Maybe he wasn't with the Highlanders during the campaign.

Have you found him on any census records? Birthplace, or towns where he lived might give a pointer.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Les275 on Saturday 28 February 09 21:31 GMT (UK)
Thank you for looking. I have him in Plymouth in 1872 where a child was born then in Malta in 1877 (another child) then in the census in Glasgow in 1881 described as an army pensioner. Again in the 1991 census but he is dead by 1901. I have 2 lines to follow - one the Black Watch museum in Perth ( I live within driving distance) and I will be in London in May and plan to go to Kew when I am down so here's hoping.
Thank you again for your help.
Cheers
les
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: kridge on Friday 13 March 09 22:23 GMT (UK)
I have a medal for the afghan war with the inscription 476 Pte C. Hart 2/8th Regt. Can anyone help with details. Thanks
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Saturday 14 March 09 09:43 GMT (UK)
I have a medal for the afghan war with the inscription 476 Pte C. Hart 2/8th Regt. Can anyone help with details. Thanks

Private Charles Hart, not entitled to the Peiwar Kotal clasp (where many men of the regiment saw action in Dec 1878 - he may have been in one of the two companies who garrisoned Kohat instead). The 8th Foot saw nearly two years of service during the war, pretty much all in the Kuram Valley, under threat many times from Mangal and Jagi tribesmen. Forty men of the regiment took part in Tytler's Zaimukht expedition in Dec 1879. The regiment returned to India in Oct 1880. Hart was discharged 20 June 1881.

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: kridge on Saturday 14 March 09 13:51 GMT (UK)
 :) :) :) Thanks very much for the info.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: BritCanadian on Sunday 22 March 09 05:15 GMT (UK)
Could you possibly look for the names of John James Hart, born 4 Aug 1852, and his father, William Hart, birthdate unknown. John James is my great grandfather, and his early life, before his marriage in 1879 in Rangoon, is mostly a mystery. I do recall my late mother saying that her grandfather "was in Afghanistan", but she could have been referring to her great grandfather, William Hart.

Many thanks, BritCanadian
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: R_Hood on Sunday 29 March 09 19:18 BST (UK)
Hello Garen

I've just found your page and wonder if you can provide me with any details regarding a member of my family who served in India.  His name was John Castle

Info so far:_

b. 1842 Nottm.
1861 census: Pte 92nd Regiment (Gordon Highlanders) at Farnborough
1871 Census: Abroad(?)
1874 His daughter born at Mooltan  (Multan) 26/4/1874
1881 Census: Back in Nottm. as a civilian.

Any details re. his enlistment, service and demob. and of his possible marriage in India would be very much appreciated.

Many Thanks R_Hood
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: cathibea on Tuesday 02 June 09 17:48 BST (UK)
I have been attempting to find out more about Sergeant George Sim of the 78th Highlanders, who was in the second Afghan War. I believe his number is 1464, as it is engraved on the side of his campaign medal. He was in Halifax Nova Scotia from 1869-1871; he married Caroline Gardner in 1871 and left Halifax. I think their children were born in Ireland, Dover, England and Poonah, India. He is said to have died of sunstroke in Afghanistan. I would like to know more about when and where he died, and his movements with the regiment. It is somewhat shocking to think that his wife moved around with him, but it clear that she did.  She eventually returned to Halifax with her children, although some seem to have returned later than she did.

If anyone can direct me to a good source, or has any information, I would be very grateful. Unfortunately I do not live in the UK so I can't hand-search any archives; I have to rely on the Internet for now.

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 05 June 09 10:06 BST (UK)
Could you possibly look for the names of John James Hart, born 4 Aug 1852, and his father, William Hart, birthdate unknown. John James is my great grandfather, and his early life, before his marriage in 1879 in Rangoon, is mostly a mystery. I do recall my late mother saying that her grandfather "was in Afghanistan", but she could have been referring to her great grandfather, William Hart.

Many thanks, BritCanadian

Hello BritCanadian - do you have any more info that might point to a particular regiment? For instance where was he born and where did he grow up? That may not answer the question on regiment, but might give a starting point.

Sorry for the late reply, rather a lot on my plate right now - and for this reason I'd be unable to trawl through the whole of the medal roll, so we'd need to narrow down the regiments first.

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 05 June 09 10:18 BST (UK)
Hello R_Hood

I checked the Afghan War medal roll for a John Castle in 92nd Foot and there's no sign of that surname, I'm afraid. What's the latest documentation you have of him in the 92nd? Is that 1861, or is the regt. mentioned on his marriage cert or perhaps the 1881 census (eg. 'formerly Gordon Highlanders' or pensioner 92nd Foot')? Is there anything to say he served in Afghanistan?

Getting his service record from Kew would be the next thing to do, I think.

Best - Garen

Hello Garen

I've just found your page and wonder if you can provide me with any details regarding a member of my family who served in India.  His name was John Castle

Info so far:_

b. 1842 Nottm.
1861 census: Pte 92nd Regiment (Gordon Highlanders) at Farnborough
1871 Census: Abroad(?)
1874 His daughter born at Mooltan  (Multan) 26/4/1874
1881 Census: Back in Nottm. as a civilian.

Any details re. his enlistment, service and demob. and of his possible marriage in India would be very much appreciated.

Many Thanks R_Hood

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 05 June 09 10:33 BST (UK)
Hello cathibea

I can confirm that 1464 Sergeant George Sim of the 78th (Seaforth) Highlanders died on 5 Sept 1880 (noted on the medal roll). It is almost certain he died on the seven day march  from Sibi to Quetta - a very tough trek in rather obscene heat. Either that or he died at Quetta as a consequence of the march. The regiment halted at Quetta and had 104 men invalided through sickness - probably mostly heat related.

His wife would not have been on this march with him, but would have stayed behind in India (possibly Karachi, maybe Poona).

The 78th were called to arms for the Afghan war and left Poona on 9 Aug 1880, arriving at Karachi by ship. They left for Sibi on 24 Aug (this would have been by train), and then they marched from Sibi to Quetta. They left for Kandahar on 3rd and 23rd Nov (two groups) - by this time the hostilities were over, and only garrison duty awaited the regiment at Kandahar.

I hope this is of some help - with your permission I'd like to add Sergeant Sim to be remembered on the Afghan War memorial database?

Let me know if I can help any further.

Best - Garen

I have been attempting to find out more about Sergeant George Sim of the 78th Highlanders, who was in the second Afghan War. I believe his number is 1464, as it is engraved on the side of his campaign medal. He was in Halifax Nova Scotia from 1869-1871; he married Caroline Gardner in 1871 and left Halifax. I think their children were born in Ireland, Dover, England and Poonah, India. He is said to have died of sunstroke in Afghanistan. I would like to know more about when and where he died, and his movements with the regiment. It is somewhat shocking to think that his wife moved around with him, but it clear that she did.  She eventually returned to Halifax with her children, although some seem to have returned later than she did.

If anyone can direct me to a good source, or has any information, I would be very grateful. Unfortunately I do not live in the UK so I can't hand-search any archives; I have to rely on the Internet for now.


Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: cathibea on Friday 05 June 09 16:35 BST (UK)
Thank you so much--you have been so helpful! You may certainly add my great-grandfather's name to the Afghan War memorial database.

I have become rather captivated by the story of Sergeant Sim and his wife, Elizabeth Gardner of Musquodoboit, Nova Scotia. Apparently when the 78th left Halifax in 1871, 17 local women who had married Highlanders left with them. As I said in my previous post, children were born to Sgt and Mrs. Sim in Ireland, Dover, England, and Poona.  Given the difficulties of sea travel, and travel in general, I find it very interesting that families moved with ordinary soldiers to postings in India, where conditions at the "base", "camp", or "fort" or whatever can't have been very comfortable.

In any case, I am very happy to have the information you so kindly supplied, so I can add to what we know about their story.

Kindest regards.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: R_Hood on Friday 05 June 09 20:10 BST (UK)
Thanks for your reply Garen

The latest I have on Private John Castle's army career is his daughter's birth certificate.  It is headed 92 Regiment of Foot and records Josephina Dexter Castle as being born on 26th April 1874 at Mooltan and baptised on 7th May 1874. Her mother was named Helen.  The Chaplain was Rev. G.W. Mant B.D. and the certificate was signed by the Adjutant R/Hoxley Lt.

I was wondering how long his term of service would be. If he enlisted in 1861 perhaps he had completed his twenty years in 1881 or possibly earlier.

A second thought was, would serving in India on or around the Afghan border at the time constitute being in the Afghan war and would he have qualified for the medal ?

I hope to be visiting Kew later in the year but would be grateful of any other help you can provide
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Cadoganpier on Friday 18 September 09 14:59 BST (UK)
Hi, I am trying to research Brigadier Sir Thomas Baker and his relation to Cedric Stansmore Baker who joined the 5th Gurkha Rifles in 1917, there has always been talk of a relationship between the two but can't find any info on Thomas d.o.b or family. I am aware Sir Thomas fought in the Second Anglo-Afghan war. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: KSD on Wednesday 07 October 09 14:37 BST (UK)
A member of my family is trying to find information relating to two soldiers who were in the 66th (Berkshire) Regiment of Foot:

B1395 Joseph Butler killed in action 27th July 1880 at Maiwand.  He enlisted on 30th September 1878.

588 Charles Butler died at Killa Abdoola.  Crossed frontier on 25th August 1880 at Sibi.  He enlisted on 21st August 1877.

My relative has been in contact with the National Archives at Kew but they have suggested a visit.  The information he has came from 3 rolls covering the regiment in WO100/52 at Kew.

Both soldiers are mentioned on the war memorial for the second Afghan War of 1878-1880 in Forbury Gardens, Reading.

Do you think it is possible to find out any more about these two soldiers?  Any pointers would be gratefully received.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: chris2705 on Friday 09 October 09 16:59 BST (UK)
Hi Garen

I have two gg uncles in the Indian army from around 1916 onwards; one 5th Gurkha Rifles FF, and the other the 16 Rajputs (Cederick & Frederick Baker) Their father (William Henry) and family had been in India since at least the 1870's  but returned to England in the late 1890's with William dying shortly afterwards. The boys upon reaching maturity, then returned to India on maturity to join the Indian Army.

What I am trying to work out is why would they go back to India to join up during WW1 when they could have gone somewhere much closer? My hunch is that there was a family connection to the army and possibly to those regiments in particular. Looking at "Bakers" that might fit the "uncle" role and with a connection brings me to Brig-Gen TD Baker. I have no evidence to support theory at all, this so was wondering if you know anything of his family or where I might find out whether he had brother/cousin called William?

Many thanks
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: trace1969 on Sunday 01 November 09 09:39 GMT (UK)
Hi I am new to this, I had been going through some stuff in my loft and came across a medal from the second Afganistan war, not no idea which side of the family it comes from, As far back as I am aware of (about 100 years)  both sides of the family are from the Oxfordhire area i was hoping you may be able to help me.
As i have read the posts i have learnt somethings, like Chester the medal has no ribbon and has been made into a brouch. but the medal can be twisted out of the rope like edging to see details around the edge of the medal, i think part of the name is missing where the brouch was made if i give you the information, i have would you be able to help.

2142 PTE W EEJ LEY  2/9th FOOT

Thanks Tracey
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: 66daffyduck on Saturday 07 November 09 15:52 GMT (UK)
Since I was a child I have owned a leather bound Koran. Written on the inside cover it says "Taken for one of the huts Fort Tele Musfied (hard to read) - Isaac Webster 1878.

It seems that this must be the Sargent Isaac Webster that has the intruder in his tent. Do you know the place that he is refering to?
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: neil1821 on Saturday 07 November 09 16:31 GMT (UK)
Hi I am new to this, I had been going through some stuff in my loft and came across a medal from the second Afganistan war, not no idea which side of the family it comes from, As far back as I am aware of (about 100 years)  both sides of the family are from the Oxfordhire area i was hoping you may be able to help me.
As i have read the posts i have learnt somethings, like Chester the medal has no ribbon and has been made into a brouch. but the medal can be twisted out of the rope like edging to see details around the edge of the medal, i think part of the name is missing where the brouch was made if i give you the information, i have would you be able to help.

2142 PTE W EEJ LEY  2/9th FOOT

Thanks Tracey


Tracey,
The number is the key to figuring out who he was.
A quick scan of the medal roll for the 2/9th (East Norfolk) Regt, we find
2142 Pte W Bewley (or possibly Beesley?), B-company. It's a wee bit difficult to read on the roll too, but the company are listed alphabetically so the "Be..." is certainly correct.
Hope that helps
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: neil1821 on Saturday 07 November 09 16:37 GMT (UK)
Since I was a child I have owned a leather bound Koran. Written on the inside cover it says "Taken for one of the huts Fort Tele Musfied (hard to read) - Isaac Webster 1878.

It seems that this must be the Sargent Isaac Webster that has the intruder in his tent. Do you know the place that he is refering to?

The most obvious answer is Fort Ali Masjid (or Musjid)
http://www.britishbattles.com/second-afghan-war/ali-masjid.htm
There were about 5 British regiments plus artillery at the battle of Ali Masjid, so if you'd like me to look for Isaac Webster on the rolls I will do.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: trace1969 on Saturday 07 November 09 20:11 GMT (UK)
Thanks for your help, i had no idea were to start, but i have now started to trace my family tree so see what other information i can find out. i will let you know if i find out anymore.
thanks again

Tracey
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: 66daffyduck on Saturday 07 November 09 20:17 GMT (UK)
Thanks for this. I took another look at the Koran and I am sure you must be right. The second word is definitely Musjid and it is dated 22nd Nov - so the day after the battle.

Sergeant Webster served with the 51st so I think that is the answer

Thanks very much

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Ravelin on Thursday 12 November 09 14:19 GMT (UK)
Hello

I would like to know if the following chap received an Afghan War Medal.

He was private William Richard Joseph 10B/1045, 2nd Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment.

His surname was sometimes wrongly spelt as Josephs.

Thank you in advance.

Ravelin

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: 66daffyduck on Monday 23 November 09 15:49 GMT (UK)
Does anybody know if Isaac Webster survived the attack in his tent mentioned in The Bugle on 1st Feb 1979 (discussed near the start of this forum)
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: yogib on Thursday 10 December 09 12:31 GMT (UK)
hi garen,

my gggf was involed in the boer war with the 42nd bty RFA but was in India before that im wondering if you have any information on the 42nd RFA/RA/RGA? in india.

thanx
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: toedwar on Thursday 17 December 09 05:44 GMT (UK)
Hello Garen, I'm hoping you can help me with a search that so far has turned up nothing.  My gg-uncle served in the second afghan war but I've drawn a blank on finding him anywhere.   His name was Arthur Rowland Thomas O'Regan although he seemed to go by Roland O'Regan, born 1856 in Donington Woods, Shropshire.  What I know is that he served in Afghanistan and participated in a march under severe conditions where the men were limited to 1 cup of water a day.  I thought this was the Kabul-Kandahar march but none of the units fit with his subsequent service.  On leaving India his unit shipped out on the HMS Jumna and when they arrived at Aden in Feb. 1884 were sent to Suakin in the Sudan to be part of Graham's relief of Tokar.   I have a letter he wrote to his sisters in England dated Feb. 21st (presumably 1884) saying that they were headed to relieve Tokar in the Sudan with the 60th Rifles and the 2nd Brigade Royal Irish Fusiliers, so I presume he was not part of those units.

My first problem is to find his regiment and looking at the units in Afghanistan and the Sudan, I suspect it could be the 10th Hussars.   Do you have a record of what units shipped on the HMS Jumna from Afghanistan (or India?) to return to England in Jan/Feb 1884?   The other mystery is that he refers to getting "another medal" in his letter which suggests he received a medal in Afghanistan but his name doesn't appear on the medal rolls (at least not that I've been able to find).    I would greatly appreciate any help in finding him in the records or suggestions of where best to look fo rhim.    Tom
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: liverpool annie on Thursday 17 December 09 07:16 GMT (UK)

Hi Tom !

I came across your post ... don't know if you've already seen this book ... but thought it maybe of interest !  :)

Quote
Two years later there was trouble in the Sudan where the fanatical forces of the Mahdi were attacking the Egyptian garrisons. A series of disasters culminated in the assassination of General Gordon at Khartoum. Twenty-five of the B.I.'s ships were eventually employed in transporting troops to the Red Sea port of Suakim, and they included the first of a very famous name in trooping, the Nevasa. The P & 0 had been called on at the start of the trouble to make emergency arrangements for the movement of troops from Cairo to Suakim. Two eastbound ships were held at Port Said, workmen were rushed on board, and as they sailed through the Suez Canal their accommodation was modified to receive 1,600 soldiers who were being sent by rail from Cairo to Suez.

The 10th Hussars were the first British troops to disembark at Suakim. On 6th February 1884 the regiment embarked at Bombay on board the troopship Jumna, commanded by Captain Uvedale Singleton, R.N. The 'Tenth' at any rate liked the Jumna, for it is recorded that there was considerable enthusiasm in the regiment at finding itself embarking in the same ship which had brought it out to India eleven years before.

M-I Battery, Royal Artillery, was also embarked at Bombay, and then the Jumna sailed down the coast to Vingorla to take on board the 2nd Battalion The Royal Irish Fusiliers. The ship then left for Aden. Approaching Aden she was intercepted by the despatch vessel Amberwitch and directed to call at the port for orders. The ship entered the harbour and the troops learned that they were to take on board camp equipment and to disembark at Suakim, a prospect of active service which was received with delight.

Owing to quarantine regulations no one was allowed ashore or on board the ship. The troops, therefore, had to do all the loading and coaling. The coaling was done exclusively by the 10th Hussars, and it may well have been the only occasion in history when a troopship has been coaled by soldier passengers.

Since the troops had been embarked for England all ranks were accompanied by their families, and the wives spent the few days between Aden and Suakim in making useful articles for the campaign. On 18th February the Jumna arrived at Suakim, and the following day the 10th Hussars disembarked. On 20th M-I Battery landed, but The Royal Irish Fusiliers remained for the time being on board the Jumna.

The 'Tenth', having been equipped with horses from the Egyptian Gendarmerie, now re-embarked on board the small transports Zag-a-Zig and Hodeida which were to carry them four hours steaming south of Suakim to the harbour of Trinkitat. There they were to join an expedition for the relief of the garrison of Tokar, some twenty miles inland.

In the meantime The Royal Irish Fusiliers had disembarked at Suakim, and had been joined by the 1st Battalion The York and Lancaster Regiment.

The force advancing from Trinkitat encountered the enemy in a position on the rising ground overlooking the wells of El Teb. The subsequent action, in which the enemy suffered a crushing defeat, could be seen by the married families from the deck of the Jumna. This must have been a harrowing experience for the wives of the 10th Hussars, though Admiral Sir William Hewitt, who visited the Regiment after the battle, sent a signal from his flagship to the Jumna giving the names of all those whom he had seen uninjured.

On the return of the 'Tenth' to Trinkitat, the officers gave a dinner to the General and staff, and to the Captain and officers of the Jumna, who were invited over from Suakim for the occasion. The ship, which the 'Tenth' regarded as their home during these operations, kindly supplied tables, chairs, tableware and even the cook for the occasion.

The day after the battle of El Teb the families had been transferred to the Serapis and departed for England; no doubt to the relief of their menfolk, for wives and warfare are not a satisfactory mixture.

Exactly a month after the Serapis had sailed the operations came to an end, and the 10th Hussars, M-I Battery, The York and Lancasters and The Royal Irish Fusiliers, embarked once more on the Jumna.

There was a pleasant sequel to the voyage, for at the first regimental dinner after their return the Commanding Officer of the 10th Hussars presented to the officers' mess a picture of H.M.S. Jumna, as a memento of all they owed to the ship and its company.

Some of the Union and Castle ships were chartered as transports for the campaign, and of these the 3,000-ton Arab of 1879 became headquarters ship at Suakim; a function which was to become common enough in the Second World War, but which was unusual in these early days.

Extract from the book - Troopships and their History by Col H C B Rogers OBE


 
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: toedwar on Thursday 17 December 09 16:15 GMT (UK)
Annie, Thank you so much for the exerpt from the book which I had not seen.   The information fits with details of his letter as he said they arrived in Suakin on the 19th and on the 21st had embarked on a ship at noon and were to arrive at their destination at 5pm which fits the movement from Suakin to Trinkitat.

If anyone has access to the records for the 10th Hussars in Afghanistan and the Sudan I would appreciate it if they could look for any entry for Arthur Rowland Thomas O'Regan or possibly Roland O'Regan.   The M-I Battery Royal Artillery is another possibility for his unit if he's not in the 10th Hussars.      Tom
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Stuart Sim on Monday 18 January 10 05:14 GMT (UK)
I have been attempting to find out more about Sergeant George Sim of the 78th Highlanders, who was in the second Afghan War. I believe his number is 1464, as it is engraved on the side of his campaign medal. He was in Halifax Nova Scotia from 1869-1871; he married Caroline Gardner in 1871 and left Halifax. I think their children were born in Ireland, Dover, England and Poonah, India. He is said to have died of sunstroke in Afghanistan. I would like to know more about when and where he died, and his movements with the regiment. It is somewhat shocking to think that his wife moved around with him, but it clear that she did.  She eventually returned to Halifax with her children, although some seem to have returned later than she did.

If anyone can direct me to a good source, or has any information, I would be very grateful. Unfortunately I do not live in the UK so I can't hand-search any archives; I have to rely on the Internet for now.

Hi there Cathibea I am wondering if you are able to see this post or if you can reply back to me?
I am thinking you might be a realative to the Sim Clan?
Is there a way we can exchange emails just to see, would like to know what else you know about the Sim's?

*S*


Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 09 February 10 12:04 GMT (UK)
Hello

I would like to know if the following chap received an Afghan War Medal.

He was private William Richard Joseph 10B/1045, 2nd Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment.

His surname was sometimes wrongly spelt as Josephs.

Thank you in advance.

Ravelin

Hello Ravelin - I don't see a Joseph/Josephs on the Afghan War medal roll for the 14th Foot (West Yorkshire). Do you have any more info on his whereabouts c.1878-80?

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 09 February 10 12:48 GMT (UK)
Hello Garen, I'm hoping you can help me with a search that so far has turned up nothing.  My gg-uncle served in the second afghan war but I've drawn a blank on finding him anywhere.   His name was Arthur Rowland Thomas O'Regan although he seemed to go by Roland O'Regan, born 1856 in Donington Woods, Shropshire.  What I know is that he served in Afghanistan and participated in a march under severe conditions where the men were limited to 1 cup of water a day.  I thought this was the Kabul-Kandahar march but none of the units fit with his subsequent service.  On leaving India his unit shipped out on the HMS Jumna and when they arrived at Aden in Feb. 1884 were sent to Suakin in the Sudan to be part of Graham's relief of Tokar.   I have a letter he wrote to his sisters in England dated Feb. 21st (presumably 1884) saying that they were headed to relieve Tokar in the Sudan with the 60th Rifles and the 2nd Brigade Royal Irish Fusiliers, so I presume he was not part of those units.

My first problem is to find his regiment and looking at the units in Afghanistan and the Sudan, I suspect it could be the 10th Hussars.   Do you have a record of what units shipped on the HMS Jumna from Afghanistan (or India?) to return to England in Jan/Feb 1884?   The other mystery is that he refers to getting "another medal" in his letter which suggests he received a medal in Afghanistan but his name doesn't appear on the medal rolls (at least not that I've been able to find).    I would greatly appreciate any help in finding him in the records or suggestions of where best to look fo rhim.    Tom

Hello Tom

I'd be interested in narrowing down dome of your info, if that's all right. I need to establish how you know he served in Afghanistan - from the info you've given ("one cup of water a day") it indicates a letter? Are you able to say when this was written? Are any place-names mentioned?

Can you give more context about the "other medal", eg. how it relates to Afghanistan?

My first thoughts about him being on a long dry march would be with Phayre's column from Quetta to Kandahar in August 1880 - but there were many other opportunities too.

Many thanks, best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 09 February 10 12:52 GMT (UK)
hi garen,

my gggf was involed in the boer war with the 42nd bty RFA but was in India before that im wondering if you have any information on the 42nd RFA/RA/RGA? in india.

thanx

Hello yogib - sorry I can't be any help with that, I'm afraid - the 42nd RFA was post-Afghan war, so a bit outside my area.

All best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 09 February 10 13:05 GMT (UK)
Does anybody know if Isaac Webster survived the attack in his tent mentioned in The Bugle on 1st Feb 1979 (discussed near the start of this forum)

Yes, he did indeed survive. He was discharged from the Army in January 1880.

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Ravelin on Tuesday 09 February 10 16:12 GMT (UK)
Hello Garen

I do have the army records of William Richard Joseph. As you probably know the West Yorkshire Regiment were formally the 14th Buckinghamshire regiment and William was formerly in the 1st Battallion 14th Buckinghanshire Regiment, Private 1168 before it changed over to West Yorkshire. I am not sure what date the title changed to West Yorkshire so i am now unsure if William took part in the Afghan war.

Ravelin
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 09 February 10 16:31 GMT (UK)
Hello Ravelin,

Ah yes - he was with the 1st Battalion 14th. It was the 2nd Battalion that saw service in Afghanistan. The names changed in 1881.

Best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Ravelin on Tuesday 09 February 10 16:37 GMT (UK)
Thanks Garen.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 10 February 10 00:45 GMT (UK)
A member of my family is trying to find information relating to two soldiers who were in the 66th (Berkshire) Regiment of Foot:

B1395 Joseph Butler killed in action 27th July 1880 at Maiwand.  He enlisted on 30th September 1878.

588 Charles Butler died at Killa Abdoola.  Crossed frontier on 25th August 1880 at Sibi.  He enlisted on 21st August 1877.

My relative has been in contact with the National Archives at Kew but they have suggested a visit.  The information he has came from 3 rolls covering the regiment in WO100/52 at Kew.

Both soldiers are mentioned on the war memorial for the second Afghan War of 1878-1880 in Forbury Gardens, Reading.

Do you think it is possible to find out any more about these two soldiers?  Any pointers would be gratefully received.  Thanks.


Hello KSD - a late reply, my apologies.

Charles Butler crossed the border into Afghanistan on 25 Aug 1880, most probably as part of a detachment that had been left at Karachi in Feb 1880 (when the rest of the regiment marched off to Kandahar) and was now coming up to join what was left of the regiment after the disaster at Maiwand.

As he died at Killa Abdullah (on 14 Sep 1880) it looks like he didn't make it, likely falling ill en-route (possibilities include disease or heat stroke). Killa Abdullah lies between Quetta and Chaman on the way to Kandahar.

It might be worth you getting in touch with the Rifles museum at Salisbury to see if they have any more info.

http://www.thewardrobe.org.uk

Incidentally, they produced an excellent book on Maiwand a couple of years ago - it includes an index of all the men of the 66th, but does not add much to what you have. It does state that Charles was part of the smoothbore battery at Maiwand, but this is a transcript error (that info is supposed to be under James Butler, where it is missing - this info from the author).

It says that Joseph Butler's medal was unclaimed. Perhaps the museum have it in their archives?

Can I ask if these Butlers were brothers?

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: toedwar on Wednesday 10 February 10 16:12 GMT (UK)
Garen – My information comes from three sources; 1. notes my father left of stories his grandmother (Arthur O’Regan’s sister) had told him; 2. A letter Arthur O’Regan wrote to his sisters dated Feb. 21st (presumed 1884) from Suakin, after his troopship (HMS Jumna) had been diverted to the Sudan when returning to England from India; 3. Information from the book - “Troopships and their History” by Col H C B Rogers OBE, which corroborates and adds to the information in his letter.   The key points of information from these sources relate more to the Sudan than Afghanistan but it hopefully helps to identify his regiment.  From these sources I think his regiment was most likely the 10th Hussars, the M-I (M-1?) Battery RA, or 1st Battalion York & Lancaster (but I don’t see the Y&L in Afghanistan).

1. Family stories - “Her brother, Jack O’Regan, took part in the Afghan campaign, as well as fighting in the Sudan against the Mahdi.   Her first account of his experiences concerns the march of his regiment from Kabul to the relief of Kandahar which was besieged by the Afghanis.  Her brother had said that his regiment was so short of water on a very long, dry and dusty march across the plains that one pint of water per day was all that they were allowed for drinking and washing.   On the way home to England the troopship was stopped at Aden and the troops sent to the Sudan. “ (I suspect the reference to the K to K march may be incorrect)

2.  Letter from Roland O’Regan:  “When we arrived at Aden we were sent on here at once to check a follower of the Mahdi's.  We reached here on the 19th and with the 60th Rifles and with the 2nd Brigade Royal Irish Fusiliers are on our way now to relieve Tokir which is besieged.   We sailed at noon today and shall arrive about 5pm.

We expect to be in action tomorrow, the sooner the better and then I hope they will send us home.   We were served out with arms and accoutrements yesterday.  I suppose you have seen in the paper that the Jumna was ordered here.   ......  I am sure that I will see you all again soon and I hope to have another medal and a little kudos.   (Signed) Roland O’Regan”

3.  “Troopships and their History” by Col H C B Rogers OBE - “On 6th February 1884 the regiment (10th Hussars) embarked at Bombay on board the troopship Jumna, commanded by Captain Uvedale Singleton, R.N.  The 'Tenth' at any rate liked the Jumna, for it is recorded that there was considerable enthusiasm in the regiment at finding itself embarking in the same ship which had brought it out to India eleven years before.

M-I Battery (M-1?), Royal Artillery, was also embarked at Bombay, and then the Jumna sailed down the coast to Vingorla to take on board the 2nd Battalion The Royal Irish Fusiliers. The ship then left for Aden. Approaching Aden she was intercepted … and directed to call at the port for orders. The ship entered the harbour and the troops learned that they were to take on board camp equipment and to disembark at Suakim, ….

On 18th February the Jumna arrived at Suakim, and the following day the 10th Hussars disembarked. On 20th M-I Battery landed, but The Royal Irish Fusiliers remained for the time being on board the Jumna.

The 'Tenth', having been equipped with horses from the Egyptian Gendarmerie, now re-embarked on board the small transports Zag-a-Zig and Hodeida which were to carry them four hours steaming south of Suakim to the harbour of Trinkitat. There they were to join an expedition for the relief of the garrison of Tokar, some twenty miles inland.

In the meantime The Royal Irish Fusiliers had disembarked at Suakim, and had been joined by the 1st Battalion The York and Lancaster Regiment.”
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 10 February 10 17:36 GMT (UK)
Thanks for all that info, Tom.

We need to establish whether he served in Afghanistan or not. The only evidence you have so far is the testimony of his sister, as told later in life. Family stories - as you'll be well aware, I'm sure - must always be treated with caution, however, I would certainly give this some credence as I doubt the story would have come out of thin air (though that has happened too in the past!).

So which was his regiment? Your regimental info comes from after the Afghan conflict, by which time he could have transferred, but let's check them out first.

10th Lancers: they did serve in the Afghan War, but there is no O'Regan (or similar) on the medal roll. As this regiment is a strong candidate, thanks to the Suakim/Jumna data, the possibility must be considered that he served under an assumed name or he was missed off the roll (unlikely, but anything is possible).

M/1 RA: this battery did not serve in Afghanistan, but many men in the Royal Artillery changed batteries a fair bit. The RA batteries that marched from Kabul to Kandahar were 6/8 and 11/9, with C/2 joining at Khelat-i-Ghilzai - there is no O'Regan (or similar) on the rolls for these units.

I did check a few other RA batteries, particularly those that may have marched from Quetta to Kandahar, but could not see his name either. This is a big list, so my search was not exhaustive - more of a quick scan. He could be there somewhere.

You mentioned the York and Lancaster Regiment - a handful of men from the 65th Foot (its pre-1881 title) were in the Afghan War. Again, no O'Regan on their roll, I'm afraid.

Let's have a quick look at the other British regiments that were on Roberts' Kabul-Kandahar march, in order of likelihood -

9th Lancers: no; 60th Foot: no, there's a James Regan; 66th Foot: no; 72nd Foot: no, there's a Francis Regan; 92nd Foot: no

There are plenty of other regiments that can be checked, but without a pointer it's a big exercise. Of course they all marched over Afghanistan's hot and arid plains, so the medal roll is still an option.

I think the next thing to do is to see if you can find his service record at Kew - that should contain all the answers. Also see if there are any clues on the census - particularly the 1871 and 1891 (as he's likely to have been in India 1881).

Best for now - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: toedwar on Wednesday 10 February 10 20:45 GMT (UK)
Garen - Thank you so much for your help!  I'm quite certain the story about his service in Afghanistan has merit, but I'm less certain on the Kabul to Kandahar march - it could very well have been a different march.   I've wondered about the question of an assumed name, but as his letter was signed Roland O'Regan I tend towards his actual name, although it could have been misspelt as Organ, or dropped to a surname of Thomas on the rolls.  As you say anything is possible, I agree!

I have him on the 1861 census with his family in Shropshire, and he is listed in the Cambridge Alumni as enrolling in 1874.   I have not been able to find him in the 1871 census nor the 1891 census.  I also found an entry in the Access to Archives from the Gazette dated 15th June 1886 for the dissolution of a business partnership in which he was the guarantor of any business debts.   This is consistent with another family story that he emigrated to South America within one or two years of returning to England, i.e. about 1886-1887.

Cheers, Tom
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: martha42 on Thursday 11 March 10 19:29 GMT (UK)
Sorry mod - duplicate post can you erase please.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: wendyel on Tuesday 16 March 10 14:52 GMT (UK)
Hi
I have just found the miltary records of my great grandfather Charles Clark and found that he served in South Afghanistan between 1878 -1880. He was awarded the Afghan medal.  Prior to that he was based at Camp Ghariel, Murree then Rawalpindi, Peshawar, Nowera, Dera Ismail Khan and Multan.  His campaigns are listed as Afghanistan and what looks like "LuaRin Expedition" - any ideas about this would be welcome.
Following his time in Afghanistan he was based at Subathu and Umballa and two other place names I cannot as yet decipher before returning home via 'Messiyeh'? Egypt on the troopship HMS Himalaya (September 1884).
If anyone could help me fill in the details, it would be much appreciated, thanks. 
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 16 March 10 17:50 GMT (UK)
Hello wendyel

Are you able to confirm Charles' regiment? If he was on the Himalaya in Sep 1884, I'm guessing he might have been with the 2nd East Surrey Rgt (previously the 70th Foot) - and if that is the case, was he a Hospital Sergeant? There is a Charles Clark, Hospital Sergeant, with the 70th in Afghanistan.

For 'LuaRin' my best guess would be Suakin, part of the Egypt campaign - and the 2nd East Surreys were there in 1885.

As for 'Messiyeh' - I'm not at all sure*. The troopships traversed the Suez Canal from Bombay to Portsmouth, usually stopping at Port Said. Ismailia is on the Suez. I believe the East Surreys were at Alexandria in 1884 - though actually, that was the 1st battalion.

If you want to scan in some of the difficult words, they might be more recognisable to accustomed eyes.

Best - Garen

*Edit: since worked out this is Abbassiyeh, near Cairo.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: drummo on Tuesday 23 March 10 16:41 GMT (UK)
In the 1871 census Colour Sergeant James Drummond aged 31 was living in Aberdeen with his wife and children.  His regiment was the 92nd foot Gordon Highlanders.

Some time later, we understand that he was posted with his family to India.  While serving in India, he was awarded the Empress of India medal.

He was then posted to Afghanistan (1878-1880) where he subsequently died.  His family returned to Scotland and his two sons were put in an orphanage with no further trace of his wife and two daughters.  His wife received the Indian medal postumously.

We would like to know how, when, where he died and where he was buried and any further information on his medal?
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 23 March 10 17:40 GMT (UK)
Hello drummo

James Drummond was killed on 13 December 1879 - he received a gun shot to the abdomen during hand to hand fighting at the assault on the Takht-i-Shah near Kabul. Surgeon Duke described his death:

"…a Highlander stood over his fallen body [that of Lt. St. John Forbes] and bravely defended him, shooting one [Afghan] and endeavouring  to bayonet another, who seized the Highlander's rifle, and a deadly struggle took place, during which he was cut down from behind and killed, and then the officer he had tried to save. Such is the manner in which Lieutenant St John Forbes and Colour-Sergeant James Drummond met their death."

The regimental history notes that:

"Colour-Sergeant Drummond had twenty-one years' service; he was a native of Stanley in Perthshire, and an athlete who excelled in putting the stone and throwing the hammer."

There is a photo of him next to the famous Hector MacDonald in the regimental history (it shows most of the sergeants of the regiment in 1879). I've attached an enlargement below - Drummond is on the left, MacDonald on the right.

James Drummond received the Afghan War medal with two clasps, for Charasia and Kabul. His army number was 488. On the occasion of the Imperial Assemblage at Delhi to honour Queen Victoria being proclaimed Empress of India (1876), one sergeant from each regiment present received a commemoration medal - for the 92nd this was James Drummond.

Do you have any more information about his wife and children (names, dates etc?)

Hope this is useful, all best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: drummo on Monday 29 March 10 23:01 BST (UK)
Hello drummo

James Drummond was killed on 13 December 1879 - he received a gun shot to the abdomen during hand to hand fighting at the assault on the Takht-i-Shah near Kabul. Surgeon Duke described his death:

"…a Highlander stood over his fallen body [that of Lt. St. John Forbes] and bravely defended him, shooting one [Afghan] and endeavouring  to bayonet another, who seized the Highlander's rifle, and a deadly struggle took place, during which he was cut down from behind and killed, and then the officer he had tried to save. Such is the manner in which Lieutenant St John Forbes and Colour-Sergeant James Drummond met their death."

The regimental history notes that:

"Colour-Sergeant Drummond had twenty-one years' service; he was a native of Stanley in Perthshire, and an athlete who excelled in putting the stone and throwing the hammer."

There is a photo of him next to the famous Hector MacDonald in the regimental history (it shows most of the sergeants of the regiment in 1879). I've attached an enlargement below - Drummond is on the left, MacDonald on the right.

James Drummond received the Afghan War medal with two clasps, for Charasia and Kabul. His army number was 488. On the occasion of the Imperial Assemblage at Delhi to honour Queen Victoria being proclaimed Empress of India (1876), one sergeant from each regiment present received a commemoration medal - for the 92nd this was James Drummond.

Do you have any more information about his wife and children (names, dates etc?)

Hope this is useful, all best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: drummo on Tuesday 30 March 10 14:33 BST (UK)
Hi Garen
First my apologies if you have already received my reply to your incredibly detailed email regarding Colour Sergeant James Drummond!  Many thanks indeed for the information, just what we were hoping for, and as for a photo as well - absolutely fantastic being able to put a face to the name.
We know from the 1871 Scottish Census that he was born about 1840 in Redgorton, Perthshire and his wife Jane about 1837 in Auchengray, Perthshire.
He had 4 children, Jane born about 1868, Charles about 1870, Margaret about 1871 and James about 1874.  We've not found any trace so far, of Jane and the 2 girls in the 1881 Scottish census but, have found there a Charles (age 11) and a James (age7) Drummond in a Midlothian Orphanage Hospital and suspect these could be the Colour Sergeant's 2 boys.  Any ideas?  Would the Highlanders have helped the family in any way after the death of James?  Also is there any record of where James would have been buried?
Again many. many thanks for all the splendid information, regards Drummo
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Monday 05 April 10 17:08 BST (UK)
Hello Drummo

Really pleased what I offered was useful.  I can't say for certain where James Drummond would have been buried - the best I can say is at Kabul or somewhere within or around the Sherpur Cantonment there. It's a question I get a fair bit and I'll have to see what information I can gather on burials, there's not a lot of specific information around.

As for James's wife, I believe as the widow of a soldier killed in action she should have received a year of her husband's pay, provided in quarterly instalments.

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: drummo on Thursday 08 April 10 23:38 BST (UK)
Hi Garen

Thank you for the info on the possible burial place of Colour Sergeant James Drummond. I've now possibly found his wife and 2 daughters on the 1881 Scottish census, showing that they had another daughter whilst in India (Katherine b1878) - I wonder if poor James ever saw this daughter (of course I could be going off on completely the wrong tangent though)!

I will see if I can get any further info on Kabul and the Sherpur Cantonment (should I be lucky, I'll get back to you).  I've also now got a little bit more history on Hector MacDonald but can't find anything on Lieutenant St John Forbes so far.

Once again thanks very much for all the family history you've given us, it really has been so interesting and remarkable.  However if you do find any further info or photos, I'd love to hear from you.

Regards Drummo

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: cuckoo on Sunday 18 July 10 20:18 BST (UK)
hi i am looking to see if my gggrandfather thomas williams 1st batt 5th regiment northumberland fusiliers had the afghan medal, he served in india from 1867-1880 when he came home early due to exhaustion related illness,the regiment came home in 1881 just a few months later would that mean hed not get a medal. he was born 1839 shropshire and after being in hospital in netley returned to oswestry shropsire, thank loved reading all the other posts,
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Monday 19 July 10 10:04 BST (UK)
Hello cuckoo

The medal roll for the 5th Northumberland regiment includes two T. Williams, both privates, service numbers 840 and 1294. Both are listed as 'discharged' (before 14 Jan 1882, when the roll for the 5th was compiled).

If Thomas served with the regiment during the campaign, even if he was discharged early, he would have received the Afghan war medal. The best thing to do now would be to check out the service records and see if the details of either matches up with your gg-grandfather.

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/chelsea-pensioners-service-records-collection-search-start.action

All the best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: cuckoo on Monday 19 July 10 10:28 BST (UK)
hi garen thanks for your quick reply, my thomas was infact 840 so im to assume that he had the medal, thanks very much.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Alba11 on Tuesday 27 July 10 18:33 BST (UK)
I've been researching my great-grandfather Duncan Gray for some months now.  I just want to say a big "Thank You, Garen" for the hints you have provided on your site, and your amazing enthusiasm for the Second Anglo-Afgan War.  I have managed to obtain my ggf's service record and also his medal roll entry.
I read from your site that you are not currently adding to your database but when you have time to start again I would be happy to provide the details of my research.  Just a quickie; Duncan Gray was a Sgt Major 2ndBatt/8th Foot and discharged in 1880, having joined up in 1858.
I think this forum is an excellent 'find'

All the best
Ken
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: McKen on Thursday 05 August 10 14:08 BST (UK)
Hi Drummo, I am new to this forum.  I stummbled across your postings while investigating my husband's family tree and although not confirmed I think I have some information which might help you. 
My husband's Great Grandfather, George McKenzie, married a Margaret Drummond in Falkirk in May 1895, at that time she was a domestic servant and her usual residence recorded as Callendar (Perthshire) she was 22 when she married.  Their marriage certificate shows her parent's as James Drummond, occupation Colour Sergeant, 92nd Foot Regiment - deceased.  Margaret's mother was called Jane Roy.  This led me to search for more information on Colour Sergeant James Drummond and that's when I came across this site and your postings.  I believe that the James Drummond you are investigating to be the same and that his daughter, Margaret is my husband's Great Grandmother but I'm not sure.  Further information found on the web shows that Colour Sergeant James Drummond had a wife called Jane and one of his daughter's was called Margaret.   
The 1891 census shows an 18 year old Margaret Drummond as a domestic servant in Huntingtontower House, Tibbermore, Perthshire. This village being remarkably close to Colour Sergeant James Drummond's own birthplace (Auchtergaven/Stanley/Redgorton vicinity - 13/8/1839).  The census shows her birthplace as Aberdeen which threw me slightly as I assumed she'd have been born in Perthshire also.  I believe however that Colour Sergeant James Drummond and his family did live in Aberdeen at one point.  Perhaps I'm clutching at straws but I wondered if she had returned to this area after the death of her father?

George McKenzie and Margaret Drummond had a son called Charles Drummond McKenzie, my husband's grandfather (Falkirk 1911).  If I am correct my husband is a great, great grandson of colour sergeant James Drummond.  Do you have any information which can assist in confirming this?
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: drummo on Friday 06 August 10 10:57 BST (UK)
Hi McKen
How brilliant! Thank you so much, I believe I have so much information I can share with you too, even a photograph of Colour Sergeant James Drummond, but I just need a bit of time to write that email.  I am sure it will be worth it!  Drummo
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: drummo on Wednesday 18 August 10 16:53 BST (UK)
Hi McKen, thank you so much for your email, I too have been investigating my husband's family tree and am convinced that they are indeed related to each other!
Colour Sergeant James Drummond, 92nd Foot Gordon Highlanders, was my husband's great great grandfather and was living with his wife Jane, daughters Jane (3yrs), Margaret (3months) and son Charles (1year) at 12 Wales Street, Aberdeen according to the 1871 Scottish Census (unfortunately we don't have access to the handwritten copy of the census, just a basic typed version).  He went on to have another son James in 1874 and I think a daughter, Katherine, in India in 1878 (ref: 1881 census).
Whilst living in India as a soldier with his family....'on the occasion of the Imperial Assemblage at Delhi, to honour Queen Victoria being proclaimed Empress of India (1876), one sergeant from each regiment present, received a commemoration medal.  For the 92nd, this was James Drummond.
He was then posted to Afghanistan where he received the Aghan War medal with two clasps for Charasia (6 Oct 1879) and Kabul (10-23 Dec 1879).  His army number was 488.
Unfortunately on 13 December 1879, he received a gunshot wound to the abdomen during hand to hand fighting at the assault on the Takht-i-Shah near Kabul and was killed.  Surgeon Duke described his death ...
'James Drummond, a Highlander, stood over the fallen body of Lieutenant St John Forbes and bravely defended him, shooting one Afghan and endeavouring to bayonet another, who then seized the Highlander's rifle and a deadly struggle took place, during which he was cut down from behind and killed and then also Lt St John Forbes who he had tried to save.  Such is the manner in which Lieutenant St John Forbes and Colour Sergeant James Drummond met their death.'
However, whilst researching a little for Lt St John Forbes, I came across this: 'Lieutenant St John William Forbes was killed at Kabul on 13 December 1879.  He was the third son of Lt Col John Forbes and Lucy Whitmore and born at Malvern Link 20 January 1856.  He was at Charasiah, Kabul and the expedition to Maidan.  On 13 December 1879 he led his men to the summit of Takht-i-Shah and was protecting the body of Colour Sergeant James Drummond when he was shot through the head'.  (he was 23 years old at the time and this piece included a small photo of the young lieutenant)
The regimental notes add that James Drummond had 21 years service, was a native of Stanley in Perthshire, and an athlete who excelled in putting the stone and throwing the hammer.
I would like to say that Garen Ewing of RootsChat.co was so helpful in our research and gave us most of the service history for James Drummond, including a photo of him with the famous Hector MacDonald.
After he died we presume his wife and children returned to Scotland.  His two sons we believe (ref: 1881 Scottish census - Charles aged 11 and James aged 7) went to the Orphan Hospital, Midlothian.  Unfortunately we had no further information about the family, except for Charles who went on to become my husband's great grandfather, until we received your email.
The family story goes that Charles "walked" south to find work.  He appears on 1891 census for Stockton-on-Tees, Durham; I then found a marriage certificate showing he married Alice Mary Bush on 19 October 1893 in Kensington, Mddx which states he was a 'dyer' and his father a soldier deceased.  On the 1901 census, it shows he has moved to Newport, Monmouth with his wife and 3 children.  One of which, Charles Roy Drummond, goes on to be the grandfather of my husband.
Going back to the 1851 Scottish census, I've found a Charles Drummond, born about 1804 in Redgorton, living in Stanley with his wife Isabella and 6 children, one of which is a James Drummond aged 11 (could this be our Colour Sergeant?).  And going back even further, to the 1841 Scottish census, Charles appears here but with his wife Galdla Drummond and James at a year old.  So if this is correct, then we could have found the parents of James Drummond ie Charles and Galdla, our husbands' great great great grandparents.
I think this is all the information I have so far and hope that it contains some new material for you.  I will try and pass on the 2 photos mentioned and a copy of our family tree if you like but please do keep in touch,  I can always send you my email address!
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: McKen on Wednesday 18 August 10 22:03 BST (UK)
Hi Drummo, more information for you as I have access to and copies of all the hand written census/birth/marriage records, some of which you refer to in your post.
Colour Sgt. James Drummond's birth cert. shows he was born 18/8/1839, Auchtergaven, Perthshire (aka Stanley/Redgorton).  His parent's were Charles Drummond (fisherman) and Isabella Robertson.  I have a written copy of the original 1841 census you refer to and the translation of her name is incorrect.  It looks like Galdhla but is actually Isabella.  Their children at the time were:- John (12), Robert (8), Thomas (5), William (3) and James (1).
Charles and Isabella married 7/3/1829 (Auchtergaven,Redgorton).  I also have a copy of the hand written marriage cert.  I have traced a Charles Drummond who was born 3/12/1803 in Redgorton.  His parents were John Drummond and Janet Duffus.  Again, I have the hand written copies. I have not investigated further but I will and let you know of any further information I find.
I am carrying out my research via scotlandspeople.gov.uk.  I have downloaded all the birth/marriage/census records that I have purchased.  It will take me a little bit of time but I would be happy to share these with you.  Evidence that your husband and my husband are distant relatives! What is interesting is that although my husband's surname is McKenzie, his family have retained the names Charles, Drummond and Roy which appear somewhere in the forenames of his uncles/cousins and other family members.  That is what made me investiage the Drummond side of his family tree!

I also have a hand written copy of Colour Sgt. James Drummond's marriage cert.  He married Jane Roy in Edinburgh. 
As it is late I will log on over the next few days and we can exchange e-mail addresses.  I have a copy of the photo of Colour Sergeant James Drummond from the forum but would be grateful for any other photos you have. Speak soon.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: drummo on Thursday 19 August 10 10:07 BST (UK)
Hi McKen, thank you very much for all the information.  I will now extend and amend the family tree and look forward to hearing from you again...
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: phillomax on Wednesday 08 September 10 20:16 BST (UK)
Hello Garen,

My grt grandfather did go to Afghanistan but not until Oct 1880 and stayed there until Jan 1883. I imagine he missed the 2nd Afghan War and maybe was just part of a force maintaining the peace?

I've attached a copy of his 'military history sheet' for your interest.
He was in the 37th Brigade (no. 971) which became the Glosters.

Regards,
Phil
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Buzancy18 on Wednesday 08 September 10 20:22 BST (UK)
This might help some of you.
http://www.angelfire.com/mp/memorials/memindz1.htm

Buzancy18
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: biggles5000 on Sunday 14 November 10 14:31 GMT (UK)
Hello fellow researchers,

I'm new to this forum and just wanted to register my interest in this campaign (Afghanistan 1878 - 1880). I am happy to help with questions anyone might have, and I am also interested in hearing from the descendants of people who were involved in or around the war.

I have a lot of information at hand but am always interested in more. Queries are welcome, as I like to help out if I can, and it also forces me to look into different aspects of the campaign and I learn more for myself each time.

I have a website, which will be going through some bigger updates over the next few months, at http://www.angloafghanwar.info

All the best -
Garen.


HI Garen

I have a book called the The Second  Afghan War  1878-1880  Casualty Roll  by Athony Farrington  a great sourse of infromation if you need any help let me know.

Biggles
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: cuckoo on Sunday 14 November 10 18:44 GMT (UK)
hi garen , ive finally got to see the muster roll of my ggrandfather thomas williams private 840, he was with 1st batt, 5th reg NORTHUMBERLAND FUSILIERS,and know i can definately tie in his childrens births in india during 1868-1879,any ideas as to how i could get their birth certs, thanks
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Seoras on Friday 19 November 10 08:48 GMT (UK)
 Hi Garen,my great great uncle was a private in the 72nd(Duke of Albany's)Highlanders.His name was Henry Steen.As far as I know he recieved the Bronze star for the march to Kandahar with clasps for what looks like Peirua(maybe Peiwar Kotol),Chavaxia(maybe Charasiah),Kabul and Kandahar.I would if possible I  like confirmation of what the clasps should be.
Also do you know where I might find  artwork relating to the 72nd during the campaign.I have found some with the 93rd Highlanders but none so far for the 72nd who were in the thick of the battle ar Kandahar.
 Lastly where might I find an image of what uniform the 72nd were wearing at this time.
 I am trying to find out as much as possible about his army career and any help will be greatly appreciated.

add on. Now have images of uniform and his records.

George.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: rhec on Saturday 27 November 10 17:54 GMT (UK)
My mother was a Simpson from County Tyrone and her uncles enlisted in the 78th Highlanders and were killed in India or Afghanistan and I'd like to know more if that can be found. Their Christian names were Thomas, John, Walter, James, Hugh and Robert. Family story is that possibly only 4 served in India or Afghanistan. They may have enlisted when the regiment was in Ireland 1871 - 1873.
If anyone has any info, then I would appreciate it.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: SoozC on Thursday 09 December 10 14:15 GMT (UK)
Hi
I have just started researching my family tree and came across these e mails on the Roots website. The  James Drummond mentioned here appears to be my great great granfather. My great grandfather being the charles drummond (! year) mentioned here. His daugther was Kathleen Nellie Drummond, who was born in Newport in 1902, so will not appear on a census until next year. She would have been the sister of the Charles Roy Drummond you mention as the being the grandfather of your husband.
The information about James Drummond is very interesting and it is great to have seen a photo of him.
SoozC
Hi McKen, thank you so much for your email, I too have been investigating my husband's family tree and am convinced that they are indeed related to each other!
Colour Sergeant James Drummond, 92nd Foot Gordon Highlanders, was my husband's great great grandfather and was living with his wife Jane, daughters Jane (3yrs), Margaret (3months) and son Charles (1year) at 12 Wales Street, Aberdeen according to the 1871 Scottish Census (unfortunately we don't have access to the handwritten copy of the census, just a basic typed version).  He went on to have another son James in 1874 and I think a daughter, Katherine, in India in 1878 (ref: 1881 census).
Whilst living in India as a soldier with his family....'on the occasion of the Imperial Assemblage at Delhi, to honour Queen Victoria being proclaimed Empress of India (1876), one sergeant from each regiment present, received a commemoration medal.  For the 92nd, this was James Drummond.
He was then posted to Afghanistan where he received the Aghan War medal with two clasps for Charasia (6 Oct 1879) and Kabul (10-23 Dec 1879).  His army number was 488.
Unfortunately on 13 December 1879, he received a gunshot wound to the abdomen during hand to hand fighting at the assault on the Takht-i-Shah near Kabul and was killed.  Surgeon Duke described his death ...
'James Drummond, a Highlander, stood over the fallen body of Lieutenant St John Forbes and bravely defended him, shooting one Afghan and endeavouring to bayonet another, who then seized the Highlander's rifle and a deadly struggle took place, during which he was cut down from behind and killed and then also Lt St John Forbes who he had tried to save.  Such is the manner in which Lieutenant St John Forbes and Colour Sergeant James Drummond met their death.'
However, whilst researching a little for Lt St John Forbes, I came across this: 'Lieutenant St John William Forbes was killed at Kabul on 13 December 1879.  He was the third son of Lt Col John Forbes and Lucy Whitmore and born at Malvern Link 20 January 1856.  He was at Charasiah, Kabul and the expedition to Maidan.  On 13 December 1879 he led his men to the summit of Takht-i-Shah and was protecting the body of Colour Sergeant James Drummond when he was shot through the head'.  (he was 23 years old at the time and this piece included a small photo of the young lieutenant)
The regimental notes add that James Drummond had 21 years service, was a native of Stanley in Perthshire, and an athlete who excelled in putting the stone and throwing the hammer.
I would like to say that Garen Ewing of RootsChat.co was so helpful in our research and gave us most of the service history for James Drummond, including a photo of him with the famous Hector MacDonald.
After he died we presume his wife and children returned to Scotland.  His two sons we believe (ref: 1881 Scottish census - Charles aged 11 and James aged 7) went to the Orphan Hospital, Midlothian.  Unfortunately we had no further information about the family, except for Charles who went on to become my husband's great grandfather, until we received your email.
The family story goes that Charles "walked" south to find work.  He appears on 1891 census for Stockton-on-Tees, Durham; I then found a marriage certificate showing he married Alice Mary Bush on 19 October 1893 in Kensington, Mddx which states he was a 'dyer' and his father a soldier deceased.  On the 1901 census, it shows he has moved to Newport, Monmouth with his wife and 3 children.  One of which, Charles Roy Drummond, goes on to be the grandfather of my husband.
Going back to the 1851 Scottish census, I've found a Charles Drummond, born about 1804 in Redgorton, living in Stanley with his wife Isabella and 6 children, one of which is a James Drummond aged 11 (could this be our Colour Sergeant?).  And going back even further, to the 1841 Scottish census, Charles appears here but with his wife Galdla Drummond and James at a year old.  So if this is correct, then we could have found the parents of James Drummond ie Charles and Galdla, our husbands' great great great grandparents.
I think this is all the information I have so far and hope that it contains some new material for you.  I will try and pass on the 2 photos mentioned and a copy of our family tree if you like but please do keep in touch,  I can always send you my email address!
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Alba11 on Friday 10 December 10 17:48 GMT (UK)
Hello rhec

This may not be relevant to your Simpson search.  I have checked the Medal Roll for the 2nd Anglo Afghan War for the 78th (Seaforth) Highlanders.  There was only one Simpson mentioned, and he may not be one of yours? However, John  Simpson, Pipe Major, 78th Highlanders (Service no 1827)was awarded a medal for his service in the conflict.  The report was issued at Lucknow in 1882

Hope this helps
Alba11
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: SoozC on Friday 10 December 10 19:36 GMT (UK)
Hi Drummo
I have just started researching my family tree and came across these e mails on the Roots website. The  James Drummond mentioned here appears to be my great great granfather. My great grandfather being the charles drummond (! year) mentioned here. His daugther was Kathleen Nellie Drummond, who was born in Newport in 1902, so will not appear on a census until next year. She would have been the sister of the Charles Roy Drummond you mention as the being the grandfather of your husband.
The information about James Drummond is very interesting and it is great to have seen a photo of him.
SoozC
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: alcollins on Wednesday 15 December 10 15:42 GMT (UK)
AlCollins here - I had a paternal great Grand Father Patrick McKenna born Tyrone 1840 - enlisted RHA in Newry in 1859 - based in Madras - believe serves in Artillery in Afghan and 3rd Burma Wars - last heard of in Burma in 1886 with rank of Conductor. Have searched National Archives, only found his enlistment at the British Library. Can not find where he died and is buried. Could someone help me, PLEASE!?
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: skarm on Sunday 19 December 10 07:04 GMT (UK)
AlCollins here - I had a paternal great Grand Father Patrick McKenna born Tyrone 1840 - enlisted RHA in Newry in 1859 - based in Madras - believe serves in Artillery in Afghan and 3rd Burma Wars - last heard of in Burma in 1886 with rank of Conductor. Have searched National Archives, only found his enlistment at the British Library. Can not find where he died and is buried. Could someone help me, PLEASE!?

Hi,

I have some experience with this (I had a G-G-Grandfather served in this campaign). If you believe the soldier survived until discharge, you should try to consult the WO/97 areas of the National Archives. If you believe he died on active duty, that is harder. Another ancestor died while on active duty, thankfully in England, but there was no trace of him via military sources (as there was no pension, etc.). Some sites such as familysearch.org have limited records from the colonial area. As my ancestor was in India for the Indian Mutiny and his sons enlisted and fought in Afghanistan, I've had to use this resource quite frequently and usually have had it work out for me, but it can be frustrating.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 17 February 11 10:44 GMT (UK)
For some reason I stopped getting alerts for this topic, so am a bit behind on my posts. Work has kept me away from Afghan War research recently anyway, but I'm just going to have a little catch-up this morning.

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 17 February 11 11:11 GMT (UK)
Hello Garen,

My grt grandfather did go to Afghanistan but not until Oct 1880 and stayed there until Jan 1883. I imagine he missed the 2nd Afghan War and maybe was just part of a force maintaining the peace?

I've attached a copy of his 'military history sheet' for your interest. He was in the 37th Brigade (no. 971) which became the Glosters.

Regards,
Phil

Hello Phil

Yes, if he entered Afghanistan in October 1880 the conflict had ended by then (hence no Afghan War medal).

The Gloucestershire Regiment came into being in 1881 with the amalgamation of the 28th and 61st Foot (the 37th Brigade is not the regiment). I believe Alfred Wilks would have been with the 61st Foot, who were at Sibi and adjacent posts and along the Quetta line of communications in Dec 1880.

Best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 17 February 11 11:13 GMT (UK)
HI Garen

I have a book called the The Second  Afghan War  1878-1880  Casualty Roll  by Athony Farrington  a great sourse of infromation if you need any help let me know.

Biggles

Thanks very much Biggles - that's an essential book in my research, so I do have a copy. (Here (http://www.garenewing.co.uk/angloafghanwar/sitestuff/bibliography.php) is a list of books in my Afghan War library).

All best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 17 February 11 11:29 GMT (UK)
hi garen , ive finally got to see the muster roll of my ggrandfather thomas williams private 840, he was with 1st batt, 5th reg NORTHUMBERLAND FUSILIERS,and know i can definately tie in his childrens births in india during 1868-1879,any ideas as to how i could get their birth certs, thanks

Hello cuckoo

Sorry, not sure about India birth certificates (bit outside my area) - have you tried the overseas births (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/OverseasStartSearchServlet?searchType=B&group=BIRTHS) at Find My Past? Also, you may already have this, but his service record (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/chelseaPensionerSearchResult.action?sdrfnbr=972141157) is up there too - looks like he broke his arm while on service in Afghanistan and was debilitated from 13 years climate and service in the Indies.

Best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 17 February 11 11:45 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen,my great great uncle was a private in the 72nd(Duke of Albany's)Highlanders.His name was Henry Steen.As far as I know he recieved the Bronze star for the march to Kandahar with clasps for what looks like Peirua(maybe Peiwar Kotol),Chavaxia(maybe Charasiah),Kabul and Kandahar.I would if possible I  like confirmation of what the clasps should be.
Also do you know where I might find  artwork relating to the 72nd during the campaign.I have found some with the 93rd Highlanders but none so far for the 72nd who were in the thick of the battle ar Kandahar.
 Lastly where might I find an image of what uniform the 72nd were wearing at this time.
 I am trying to find out as much as possible about his army career and any help will be greatly appreciated.

add on. Now have images of uniform and his records.

George.

Hello George - I'm always interested in fellow 72nd researchers as I had two gggg-uncles in the regiment in Afghanistan. You say you've already got a picture and his record, but I'll put down some answers anyway.

You're right, the 72nd were in the thick of it all but there always seems to be more pictures of the 92nd than the 72nd (the 92nd also had their fair share of action, of course, but served for a shorter duration than the 72nd). I put it down to the 92nd wearing kilts and the 72nd trews, so the 92nd had more visual flair! There is a great photograph of a 72nd soldier, a later photograph but dressed as he would have been in 1879, in Victorian Colonial Wars by Philip J. Haythornthwaite, p.15 (1988). There are a few contemporary photos around too and prints from The Illustrated London News.

As you correctly suggest, Henry Steen received the Afghan War medal with clasps for Peiwar Kotal, Charasia, Kabul, Kandahar, and the Kandahar Bronze Star for the march - the maximum a 72nd soldier could get for one of the most decorated regiments in the conflict.

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 17 February 11 12:02 GMT (UK)
My mother was a Simpson from County Tyrone and her uncles enlisted in the 78th Highlanders and were killed in India or Afghanistan and I'd like to know more if that can be found. Their Christian names were Thomas, John, Walter, James, Hugh and Robert. Family story is that possibly only 4 served in India or Afghanistan. They may have enlisted when the regiment was in Ireland 1871 - 1873.
If anyone has any info, then I would appreciate it.
Thanks.

Hello rhec

Do you have any info on the source of your Simpson/78th connection - it might help with some pointers. The 78th did not suffer any casualties in battle, entering the arena in August 1880 towards the very end of the conflict, and garrisoning Kandahar later on.

As Alba11 helpfully said, the only Simpson shown in the 78th is the Pipe Major, John Simpson. There is a William Simpson in the 72nd (not a casualty).

All best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 17 February 11 12:08 GMT (UK)
AlCollins here - I had a paternal great Grand Father Patrick McKenna born Tyrone 1840 - enlisted RHA in Newry in 1859 - based in Madras - believe serves in Artillery in Afghan and 3rd Burma Wars - last heard of in Burma in 1886 with rank of Conductor. Have searched National Archives, only found his enlistment at the British Library. Can not find where he died and is buried. Could someone help me, PLEASE!?

Hello Al

Does his enlistment state which Royal Horse Artillery battery he joined? As for his death, as he didn't die in the Afghan War it's a bit outside the area of expertise here, I'm afraid. Have you searched FreeBMD or Ancestry.co.uk for a possible UK death certificate? If you think he died in India or Burma, then the overseas deaths at FindMyPast might help.

Best of luck - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Monday 21 February 11 11:18 GMT (UK)
I've been researching my great-grandfather Duncan Gray for some months now.  I just want to say a big "Thank You, Garen" for the hints you have provided on your site, and your amazing enthusiasm for the Second Anglo-Afgan War.  I have managed to obtain my ggf's service record and also his medal roll entry.
I read from your site that you are not currently adding to your database but when you have time to start again I would be happy to provide the details of my research.  Just a quickie; Duncan Gray was a Sgt Major 2ndBatt/8th Foot and discharged in 1880, having joined up in 1858.
I think this forum is an excellent 'find'

All the best
Ken

Ken - thanks very much for those kind words. It would be great to add Duncan Gray to the database, so do feel free to send (http://www.garenewing.co.uk/contact.html) any info and I'll include him on the next update.

Thanks, all the best - Garen.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: WhiteHunter on Friday 18 March 11 11:58 GMT (UK)
Greetings Garen,
Just found you chat and thought you may be interested in my Great Grand Father, who was awarded the Afghan War Medal.  He was Tem'p Co'nd J. ALLEN Bo Ord Det.  Which I take to be Temperory Conductor J. ALLEN Bombay Ordnance Department.  He was not awarded any clasps.
I have transcribed the following from "The roll of Officers, NCOs and men entitled to the "Afghan War Medal" Signed at the Orderly Room, Poona on the 5th September 1881:    It states :  He crossed the frontier on the Quetta side of the Kojak and was at Kandahar since 28th September 1880.

Whitehunter
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Saturday 19 March 11 11:40 GMT (UK)
Hello Whitehunter

That's great - it's difficult to be aware of NCOs of the Bombay services as they're not on the widely available Afghan War medal roll, just in the India Office records. It would be great to add him to the database, so please feel free to send (http://www.garenewing.co.uk/contact.html) me any details you can, if you're willing.

You can see the Khojak Pass on my map here (http://www.angloafghanwar.info/waroffice/maproom.php).

Best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: cnickless on Tuesday 19 April 11 05:46 BST (UK)
Just found this thread...all great stuff.

I think I have a relative that servered in the Afghan War in the 15th Hussars, by the name of Thomas Tomlinson.  He was a Troop Sergeant Major.  I actually started another thread asking for info as I hadn't found this one.

Whitehunter, what source are you using to get the information about your family member.  I would love to know more about Thomas Tomlinson's activities in the War.  Thanks!

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 19 April 11 14:52 BST (UK)
Hello cnickless

Yes, I see a Lance Sergeant T. Tomlinson (no. 1014) on the Afghan War medal roll for the 15th Hussars.

Was he born in Yorkshire c.1850? His service papers are up on FindMyPast.co.uk (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/) (you may already know this!).

Best wishes -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: cnickless on Tuesday 19 April 11 17:39 BST (UK)
Hi Garen,

Yes, I also got a response on the other thread that he was found on the list.

He was born in Bewdley, Worcestershire in 1849.  A bit of a mystery is that he was born with the name Benjamin but used the alias Thomas when he joined the Hussars and seems to have used this name throughout his military career but reverts back to Benjamin later on in the UK census returns.

I did go and find his records at findmypast and downloaded them.  Says he served in Afghan in late 1878 and 1879, but doesn't give any details as to what he did there.

On the other thread a kind poster told me on the Medal Roll it says in the remark "Depot" for Thomas but not sure what that means.

I have a picture of him where I think he is wearing his Afghan medal with several bars, you can't see the medal clearly but the ribbon looks right.

I can send you some biographical info if you want to add Benjamin, aka Thomas, Tomlinson to your database.

Any info you might know on him would be wonderful to hear also.

Love your site, Garen, great info there.

Regards, Cary
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 19 April 11 18:42 BST (UK)
I can give you a brief overview of what the 15th Hussars got up to in Afghanistan, Cary:

They marched on Kandahar in December 1878/January 1879, with two squadrons of the 15th seeing action en route at Takht-i-Pul and in the Ghlo Pass; they were at Kandahar for just a few days before they accompanied General Biddulph up to Khelat-i-Ghilzai, stayed there a fortnight, and then returned to Kandahar. Soon after they were sent back into the Pishin Valley, opening up a route through Yargistan and then returning to India (Mirat). They started for the Afghan border again in August 1880, pausing at Quetta and eventually reaching Kandahar after the campaign had been effectively ended by Roberts' victory at the city earlier on Sept 1st. They were back in India in October.

Out of interest, the 15th Hussars suffered greatly from the cold at the Bolan Pass on their first advance to Kandahar, and greatly from the heat at the same location on their second advance in August 1880.

The remark 'Depot' on the medal roll means that Tomlinson was, at the time of the regimental roll's compilation (August 1881), serving with one of the depot companies of the 15th Hussars rather than with one of the 'service' troops.

If you're able and willing to send (http://www.garenewing.co.uk/contact.html) some biographical info (and a copy of the photo for a mini portrait?) for the database that would be wonderful. I'm sorry I'm being a bit slow with email at the moment (just become a new dad :-)), but I am getting ready to compile some new entries soon (huge thanks to others who have recently sent info too, much appreciated - I will answer all emails eventually!).

All best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: cnickless on Tuesday 19 April 11 19:38 BST (UK)
Congrats, Garen!  :D

Thanks for all the extra info, much appreciated.  I'll send you some stuff shortly...but please no rush on your end, seems like your hands are full at the moment!
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 28 April 11 12:54 BST (UK)
Many thanks, Cary.

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Beevee on Saturday 16 July 11 20:11 BST (UK)
I have just found this topic. My ggrandfather's brother was Albert Exon who attested for the 18th Hussars at Bristol on 13/8/1878 but transferred to the 15th on 5/3/1880. Was this because they needed to bring up the numbers?  They left for India on 10/3/1880 on the HMS JUMA. He then took part in the Afghan campaign and gained a medal. Would he have been in any actual fighting as I believe they arrived in Kandahar after the show was over. After returning to India and recovering from diahorrea he left on the Euphrates for Natal and the 1st Boer War but that's another story.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Sunday 17 July 11 20:49 BST (UK)
Hello Beevee,

Yes, basically to bring up the numbers - March 1880 saw a draft of 48 men of the 15th Hussars sent to India (aboard HMS Jumna) to join the service company who had been involved in the first campaign of the Afghan war (entering Kandahar in Jan 1879 and returning to India in May).

The regiment was called back into active service after the British defeat at Maiwand (Jul 1880) and joined General Phayre's column in August (in excessive heat) on its way to Kandahar, but being delayed at Quetta. They eventually made it to Kandahar, after the war had effectively been ended by Roberts' battle on 1 Sep, and returned to India in Oct 1880. They saw no action in their second excursion, as you say.

Best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Beevee on Monday 18 July 11 07:32 BST (UK)
Thanks Garen for that information. No glorious action to justify his medal then!
I dont know whether you want to add him to your data base but I can supply a bit more from his service record if required.
Regards Beevee
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 20 July 11 02:31 BST (UK)
Cheers, Beevee - I'd love to include Albert on the database, thank you. If you'd like to email (http://www.garenewing.co.uk/rainboworchid/readerscorner/contact.php) over some details, that would be great.

And I'd certainly say his medal was justified! That march through the Bolan Pass in the August heat was a real trial and saw many British soldiers perish. The fact that those who marched with Roberts from Kabul received a bronze star for their march was more than a little irksome for many who also wore their feet out on those stony plains. Although i don't know if the 15th specifically came under attack en route, many Afghan tribesmen did harry the column and caused great delay to General Phayre, so much so that a punitive column was sent against the Marris after the main conflict had been settled.

Best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Beevee on Wednesday 27 July 11 09:15 BST (UK)
Thanks Garen, I can't imagine what it must have been like for a young lad from a green and sleepy village in Somerset who had never been further than the next village to have been plunged into the heat and savagery of Afghanistan. I imagine he was quite a centre of attention down at the pub when he came back. Where can I read up about the trek of the column that included the 15th Hussars? Thanks again and I will add to your database when I get home from holiday. Beevee
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: saffie53 on Sunday 31 July 11 22:28 BST (UK)
Hi, Just found this site - been reading most of day about 2nd anglo-afghan war, trying to find info on 6th Dragoon Guards and the part they played during this war.  Have a medal handed down through family for 1194 Pte W Brown in an old broach fitting (gg grandfather) Any info would be much appreciated
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 04 August 11 20:07 BST (UK)
Hello Saffie

The 6th Dragoons were called into the Afghan War in the second campaign which was ignited due to the 'massacre' at the British embassy in Kabul (Sep 1879). The Carabiniers, as they were also known, entered Jalalabad at the end of October 1879 and one of their early tasks was to escort the resigned Amir, Yaqub Khan, to India. They were involved in a number of minor actions in the Khyber region and left the region for good in August 1880.

Hope that is of interest, all best -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 04 August 11 20:21 BST (UK)
Where can I read up about the trek of the column that included the 15th Hussars?

There is not as much material on Phayre's Kandahar column from Quetta as there is on Roberts' from Kabul. The Official Account and Hanna both contain some material - books that are not easy to get hold of, though there may be print-on-demand editions around (beware, they can be terrible quality, maybe Google Books has them digitised?). Another obscure book I'd recommend is Le Messurier's account of travelling that route - though that was on the initial advance in 1878/79, so before Albert was there, and in a cooler clime.

If you can get hold of the late Brian Robson's book on the Second Afghan War, that is a very good overview of the entire campaign.

Hanna, Colonel. H. B.: The Second Afghan War 1878-79-80: Its Causes, Its Conduct and Its Consequences. Archibald Constable & Co. 3 Volumes, 1899, 1904, 1910.

Cardew, F. G. (under direction of C. M. MacGregor, with P. Oliver): The Second Afghan War 1878-80 Abridged Official Account. Produced by the Intelligence Branch Army Headquarters, India. John Murray, 1908.

Le Messurier, Major: Kandahar in 1879 Being the Diary of Major Le Messurier, R.E. W. H. Allen & Co. 1880.

Robson, Brian: The Road to Kabul, the Second Afghan War 1878-1881. Arms & Armour Press, 1986 (Spellmount 2003).


Best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Beevee on Friday 05 August 11 07:02 BST (UK)
Thanks Garen . Will try to read more details on Phayre's column where I can find them.
Regards, Beevee
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: saffie53 on Sunday 07 August 11 13:26 BST (UK)
Garen,

Thanks for the info, have now visited your site and found others mentioning the 6th Dragoon guards found them all to be a great interesting read.  Hopefully will be able to retrieve copies of service records for 1194 pte W Brown and find a little more info on him from th National Archives.

Thanks once again,

Saffie
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: J11 on Sunday 06 November 11 14:39 GMT (UK)
Garen,

I was wondering if you had any information on what F Troop (cited as the relevant troop by another reliable source) 15th Hussars did during the 2nd Afghan War.  My gg grandfather Private Niel (sic) Fergusson regimental number 1234 had a totally undistinguished, not to say disreputable, 30 year career with the 15th.  The phrase "drunken squaddie" seems to cover it!  I note from his military record that under Medals and Decorations it says Afghanistan 78.79.80 although under Special Instances of Gallant Conduct there is the expected NIL.  It occurred to me that maybe I am being a bit harsh on him and that there might be some actions in which his troop, and therefore he, might have been involved in Afghanistan which might offset the unfortunate military record ( gonorrhea, alcoholism, malingering ) I have so far.  Many thanks,

Jenny 

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 10 November 11 16:59 GMT (UK)
Hello Jenny

I don't have any specific information, off the top of my head, regarding F Troop in particular, I'm afraid. I can tell you about the 15th Hussars in general, which may or may not be known to you (copied from one of my earlier posts) ...

They marched on Kandahar in December 1878/January 1879, with two squadrons of the 15th seeing action en route at Takht-i-Pul and in the Ghlo Pass (not sure if one of those was F Troop or not); they were at Kandahar for just a few days before they accompanied General Biddulph up to Khelat-i-Ghilzai, stayed there a fortnight, and then returned to Kandahar. Soon after they were sent back into the Pishin Valley, opening up a route through Yargistan and then returning to India (Mirat). They started for the Afghan border again in August 1880, pausing at Quetta and eventually reaching Kandahar after the campaign had been effectively ended by Roberts' victory at the city earlier on Sept 1st. They were back in India in October. They went on to see service in South Africa in 1881 before returning to England.

Out of interest, the 15th Hussars suffered greatly from the cold at the Bolan Pass on their first advance to Kandahar, and greatly from the heat at the same location on their second advance in August 1880.

Having 'Nil' under Gallant Conduct is not at all unusual, so it's certainly not a sign of anything. I'd also have to say that drink and disease was very much a part of army life in India - so, as you suggest, don't be too harsh. (Demotions, prison and court martials would set him apart, though with enough company, for sure).

Best wishes - Garen.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: niikib on Thursday 10 November 11 21:54 GMT (UK)
Could you please help me with Alfred Shakespeare born 1864 brierley hill,i have tryed & tryed,but come up with nothing.
This is my military album.Alfred is the third pic.if you can tell me any thing about the others i would be grateful
http://s1101.photobucket.com/albums/g437/niikib/military/
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: J11 on Friday 11 November 11 09:13 GMT (UK)
Thanks for your reply, Garen.  He definitely went to Afghanistan and I think he may have been on the first advance to Kandahar.  His medical record for 1878 says muscular rheumatism and gives the cause as "cold".  Unlikely to have got that in India.

Jenny
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Sunday 13 November 11 01:11 GMT (UK)
Could you please help me with Alfred Shakespeare born 1864 brierley hill,i have tryed & tryed,but come up with nothing.
This is my military album.Alfred is the third pic.if you can tell me any thing about the others i would be grateful
http://s1101.photobucket.com/albums/g437/niikib/military/

Hello niikib

Did Alfred serve in the Second Anglo-Afghan War? Unless he served as a boy (which is possible, of course) he'd be a little young (the war was 1878-80). Have you tried Find My Past (http://www.findmypast.co.uk) in case they have his service record?

Most of the photos in your album look World War I era and after.

Best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: peelaw66 on Thursday 15 December 11 21:26 GMT (UK)
Hi

My gt grandfather George William smith (dob 1842 Demerara Guyana) enlisted in the 1st West India regiment approx 1864 and he was in charge of the Field Chest during the Ashanti War, he did serve in India as well, he was a paymaster, he died 1907 at Brighton UK and his obituary was in the Times   I believe he may of had a brother Joseph Alexander Smith (dob 1839 Guyana)  who may also have served in the 1st West India Regiment, would you have any info on Joseph by any chance.   I am really trying to find out the father of both George W and Joseph A Smith.


Thank you for any ideas you may have.

Regards

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 16 December 11 00:18 GMT (UK)
Hello peelaw66

While George served in the Afghan war with the 67th Foot, I don't believe Joseph saw service in that campaign, so is a bit outside both this topic and my expertise, I'm afraid. With that in mind, I did look up Joseph for a brief biography:

Ensign (without purchase) 1st West India Regiment Dec 1855 (seems he stayed with this rgt. throughout); Lieutenant Aug 1857; Captain Aug 1869; Major Sep 1876; Lt.-Col. Jan 1879; Appointed to command regiment Mar 1882; Colonel Jan 1883; Hon. Major-General Jan 1884, retired.

I note that George William Smith died at Addiscombe, though his funeral was at Brighton.

Best wishes -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: peelaw66 on Friday 16 December 11 20:14 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen

Thank you so much for your interest and help.

Where did you find out all the military details of Joseph A Smith and also George W?

Once again thanks.

Kind regards
Peelaw
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 16 December 11 23:47 GMT (UK)
No problem, sorry it's not much.

Most of the info comes from the London Gazette and some from The Times (which mostly consists of information reprinted from the London Gazette anyway, as far as promotions are concerned); also Hart's Army Lists.

I have George on my Afghan War database here:

http://www.angloafghanwar.info/database/permalink.php?pid=1022

All best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Saturday 17 December 11 11:46 GMT (UK)
peelaw66 - just as an afterthought, and on the basis that sons often (but by no means always) enter the same regiment as their father (if, in fact, their father was in the military at all - he may not have been) - I checked the 1840 Army List for officers in the West India Regiment called Smith and found only one: William Nepean Smith.

He was a sergeant in the 96th Foot and became an ensign (without purchase) in the 22nd Cheshire regiment in Jan 1837. He transferred to the 1st West India Regiment in Aug 1839.

It does seem as though the 22nd Foot were in the West Indies (Jamaica) from 1826 to 1837, so a connection between the regiments, perhaps. A lot of 'perhaps'!

It's a bit of an arbitrary check as there may be Smiths in other years, or a Smith that joined the West India Rgt. much later when the boys were older. If you wanted to check for more Smiths in the West India Rgt. then see Google Books for Army Lists (many up to 1870 are available as 'full view').

Best - Garen

Edit/update: A William Frederick Nepean Smith married Emily Blum 1840 in London (so doesn't look good - oh well...). A William Nepean Smith died Northamptonshire 1857.

Have you looked at other Smiths born in Demerara on the census returns (bearing in mind Demerara is spelled in a variety of ways)? There's a number around - might lead to something.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: peelaw66 on Saturday 17 December 11 20:58 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen

Thank you for all the info on Smiths.   I was assuming that George Williams father was also in the military as George was born in Demerara (British subject)  and I believe that other siblings were born at other military places.   There is a site run by Tikwis Begbie that has lots of people born in Demerara and have found info from there.

I am now sifting through the info and the sites you mention and I have also viewed your site - very interesting.

I am attaching a photo of George William Smith in full military dress (taken in 1907 - after he had retired but I imagine he wanted a portrait and still had all his uniform.)

Thank you once again for your help and injterest.

Regards
Peelaw
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: peelaw66 on Saturday 17 December 11 23:02 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen

Just a quick question do you know how to find out about records at the National Archives reference WO 76 and 42 - are these only available if you visit the Archives or are they online ?   If I could find the Attestation papers for George William Smith it would possibly give his parents names.

Many thanks for your help.

Regards
Peelaw
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Monday 19 December 11 00:21 GMT (UK)
Hello Peelaw

What a great photograph - would you mind if I used a small version (just a portrait portion) for his database entry on the Afghan War database?

Good news on the WO 42 and WO 76 records - they are available for free as part of the National Archives Digital Microfilm project. They may require a bit of hunting through, though. Type 'WO 42' (or 76) into the search box here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=32&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1).

All best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: ndess on Monday 19 December 11 02:53 GMT (UK)
I Garen, 

The preceeding is my relative.  The sibling of Edmund C.  We are also in touch with GW daughter Dora grand daughter, all through internet contacts.  My ggfather Herbert Young is missing in your report on GW, b 1871 Lewisham.  He was born when GW was on half pay owing to his regiment 2 WIR being disbanded in 1870.  GW originally enlisted with 1/10th Foot in 1859 and transferred to 1 WIR in 1861, all as enlisted man.  He was made an ensign in Sept 1865 when serving on Gold Coast.  Nine months later, almost to the day, his first son, George Patrick was born.  GW had an older brother who also served in 1 WIR, Joseph Alexander Smith, becoming their commanding officer in 1880.

We are looking as to where we may find bith certificates for officers serving in the Carribbean.  I was in Jamaica looking for some of GW children born in Spanish Town, Jamaica but there is no record of them.

Thanks for this leg of research
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: phil100652 on Thursday 12 January 12 11:14 GMT (UK)
Hello. I'm trying to establish whether or not William Barnett, who served his 'full 21 years' with the 8th Hussars from 1868 to 1889 (which included the Afghan War), could be my great grandfather.

There is a lot of evidence to suggest he was the father of my grandmother but the time she was conceived and born is in the middle of a 4 & 1/2 year service spell in East Indies (Sep 1884 to May 1889).

My question specifically is could it be possible that he and his first wife would be sent home to England on leave from East Indies part-way through the 4 & 1/2 years he was out there or, once out there, did they have to stay there until the whole unit was transferred back to England?
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Monday 23 January 12 19:41 GMT (UK)
I Garen, 

The preceeding is my relative.  The sibling of Edmund C.  We are also in touch with GW daughter Dora grand daughter, all through internet contacts.  My ggfather Herbert Young is missing in your report on GW, b 1871 Lewisham.  He was born when GW was on half pay owing to his regiment 2 WIR being disbanded in 1870.  GW originally enlisted with 1/10th Foot in 1859 and transferred to 1 WIR in 1861, all as enlisted man.  He was made an ensign in Sept 1865 when serving on Gold Coast.  Nine months later, almost to the day, his first son, George Patrick was born.  GW had an older brother who also served in 1 WIR, Joseph Alexander Smith, becoming their commanding officer in 1880.

We are looking as to where we may find bith certificates for officers serving in the Carribbean.  I was in Jamaica looking for some of GW children born in Spanish Town, Jamaica but there is no record of them.

Thanks for this leg of research

Thanks very much for that extra info, ndess. I have updated George's database entry though it will not show online until the next upload, probably a few weeks away.

Cheers!

All best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Monday 23 January 12 20:22 GMT (UK)
Hello. I'm trying to establish whether or not William Barnett, who served his 'full 21 years' with the 8th Hussars from 1868 to 1889 (which included the Afghan War), could be my great grandfather.

There is a lot of evidence to suggest he was the father of my grandmother but the time she was conceived and born is in the middle of a 4 & 1/2 year service spell in East Indies (Sep 1884 to May 1889).

My question specifically is could it be possible that he and his first wife would be sent home to England on leave from East Indies part-way through the 4 & 1/2 years he was out there or, once out there, did they have to stay there until the whole unit was transferred back to England?

Hello Phil,

William Barnett (no.1201 - hope that's the right one) served in the Afghan War and returned to the UK in May 1882. He then went back to India in Sep 1884. His record states that he was not back home again until May 1889, so the answer is no - he didn't return to the UK halfway through that second stretch.

William's record does note that his wife was with the regiment, and - yes -  it is possible that his wife, pregnant, returned home before William did - especially if she was ill as well, or had just had enough and wanted to be back with her family for the new baby.

It was more usual for officers to come and go (on furlough or sick leave) but privates and ncos were pretty much stuck with their regiment. Men's wives were not necessarily so stuck.

All the best -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: catwoman8950 on Saturday 28 January 12 19:36 GMT (UK)
Hello,

I have just joined this forum and am searching for information on the death of Henry Bangs who served as a Colour Sergeant with the 51st King's Own Light Infantry stationed in Fyzabad and Peshawar between 1872 and 1880.  Henry Bangs was born in Mildenhall, Suffolk in around 1835 and married my husband's great aunt, Elizabeth Ann Stubbs, in 1867 whilst stationed at the Western Heights Barracks in Dover, Kent.

4 children were born in India:
Agnes Martha Bangs b1873 in Fyzabad
Alfred William Bangs b1875 in Fyzabad, d1876 in Peshawar
George Bangs b1877 in Peshawar
Elizabeth Ann Bangs b1879 (March) in Dagshai

By 1881 Elizabeth Ann Stubbs was widowed and living with her surviving children in Salford, Lancashire.  There is no record of Henry Bangs' death in England and we therefore assume that he died in India around 1879/80.

I have searched the military records on the internet and there is no record of Henry Bangs' death in India.  As the last child was born in Dagshai, it is possible that Henry Bangs died there.  I know from research that there was a hospital for tuberculosis patients built by the British at Dagshai, so perhaps he died of illness.

However, I know for certain that Henry Bangs was a soldier with the 51st King's Own Light Infantry Regiment in the 1870s and that this regiment fought in the 2nd Anglo-Afghan War.  Surely there must be a record of deaths of soldiers from this regiment in India somewhere, whether they died in battle, or from illness?

Any help in tracing where and when Henry Bangs died would be most welcome.

Debbie


Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Saturday 28 January 12 21:16 GMT (UK)
Hello Debbie

I had a look at the Afghan war medal roll for the 51st Regiment and can see no Henry Bangs listed, unfortunately. If he was with this regiment as of 1878 then he may have fallen ill before they went off to the frontier, and perhaps died in 1878 or 1879, away from his regiment. It certainly seems as though he was not in Afghanistan with the 51st.

Do you know if he was part of the Jowaki campaign in 1877? The 51st Foot took part in that, so he should appear on the Jowaki medal roll.

(Edit: I just looked up the 51st Foot on the Jowaki medal roll at Ancestry and don't see Henry Bangs listed under the B's (Asia > India 1875-1877 > Perak 1875-76 - 3rd, 10th and 80th Regiments of Foot, Others; Jowaki 1877 - Royal Artillery, Others > p.14) - is there a chance Henry was with another regiment after 1876/77?

The next best thing to check would probably be the muster rolls for the 51st at Kew. I believe the reference you'd want would be WO 16/1811 (you can type that refernce into the National Archives catalogue search box here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/)).

Sorry I can't be more help than that at the moment.

Best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: catwoman8950 on Monday 30 January 12 23:30 GMT (UK)
Hello Debbie

I had a look at the Afghan war medal roll for the 51st Regiment and can see no Henry Bangs listed, unfortunately. If he was with this regiment as of 1878 then he may have fallen ill before they went off to the frontier, and perhaps died in 1878 or 1879, away from his regiment. It certainly seems as though he was not in Afghanistan with the 51st.

Do you know if he was part of the Jowaki campaign in 1877? The 51st Foot took part in that, so he should appear on the Jowaki medal roll.

(Edit: I just looked up the 51st Foot on the Jowaki medal roll at Ancestry and don't see Henry Bangs listed under the B's (Asia > India 1875-1877 > Perak 1875-76 - 3rd, 10th and 80th Regiments of Foot, Others; Jowaki 1877 - Royal Artillery, Others > p.14) - is there a chance Henry was with another regiment after 1876/77?

The next best thing to check would probably be the muster rolls for the 51st at Kew. I believe the reference you'd want would be WO 16/1811 (you can type that refernce into the National Archives catalogue search box here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/)).

Sorry I can't be more help than that at the moment.

Best wishes - Garen

Hello Garen,

Thanks very much for your reply.  In the meantime I have been doing some checking myself at Ancestry and have found a document (ref WO 100/21A, generic date range 1846-1866) showing that Henry Bangs served with the 51st Regiment of Foot in India prior to his marriage in 1867 when stationed at Western Heights Barracks in Dover (his marriage certificate just states "Soldier" for occupation).  On the record at Ancestry he is listed as a Private in the 51st with the regimental number of 1121. Given that he was 32 when he married, I presume that this earlier record of his service in India was his first "tour of duty", so to speak.  What is curious about this record is that all the soldiers from the 51st Regiment appeared to have been denied a campaign medal.  The note against the names states "Not allowed by Indian Goverment vide .. (unreadable) in chief's letter 10.2.70" - whatever that means.  By the time of the birth of his first child at Weymouth Barracks in 1869 Henry had been promoted to Colour Sergeant with the 51st.

I have researched the history of the 51st Regiment and they were certainly in Fyzabad and Peshawar at the time some of the Bangs children were born.

It could be possible that Henry changed regiments though.  His uncle Thomas Bangs served in three different regiments, including the 51st.

I will certainly check the records at Kew under the reference number you have given me, because other than that, I don't know where to look next.

Kind regards,

Debbie




Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: bettyve on Tuesday 15 May 12 09:31 BST (UK)
Hi Garen
I am looking for any information on my Grandfather, Alfred Ennis who was in the Dorsetshire Regiment 1895 - 1903 and went to
Malta and India.  Do hope you may be able to help.  Best wishes.  bettyve
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: bettyve on Wednesday 22 August 12 05:51 BST (UK)
Hi dailyblog4life

Yes I have him born St Helier, Jersey, Channel Islands 1880, then the family moved to Poole, Dorset 1891.  He joined the army when he was 15 but stated his age was 18.  I have copies of his record of service (Alfred Edward Ennis) and his number was 4775.   In his possessions was a copy of a map of Peshawar, Kyber Pass, Old City, Afghan and Zaryab Colonys.   I am searching for any  information on what he did and where he went and campaigns while in India.

Hope this is helpful.

Best wishes

bettyve
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Sunday 26 August 12 20:48 BST (UK)
Hello bettyve

Many apologies for missing your message. I'm afraid your dates are a bit outside my area - the Second Anglo-Afghan War was 1878-80. I believe the Dorset Regiment was involved in the 1895 Chitral campaign though (needs checking) - so maybe look there? I'm guessing you've looked for his service record on findmypast.co.uk - if it exists it will tell you any medals and campaigns he was involved in.

Best of luck to you - Garen

Hi Garen
I am looking for any information on my Grandfather, Alfred Ennis who was in the Dorsetshire Regiment 1895 - 1903 and went to
Malta and India.  Do hope you may be able to help.  Best wishes.  bettyve
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: JaneyCanuck on Wednesday 05 September 12 14:21 BST (UK)
Hello Garen - I confess to having skipped ahead a little through the thread's 15 pages, but I imagine my question is novel. ;)

About 5 years ago I discovered that my great-grandfather's surname (and hence my mother's surname) was fake, except that it was a given name of his younger sister, and the "why" of the name itself is still my mystery.

The "why" of the switch is now known. Some 3 or 4 years after that discovery, I had a chat with the son of my mum's cousin -- and it turned out that he knew the reason for the name switch, from his mum, even though she had had no idea that there had been a switch and the name we all knew was fake.

My gr-grfather had apparently confided in her when she was young, and the big part of his story was that he had deserted from the military in India. Apparently when his contracted five years were up, he was told he was not being discharged and instead was being re-upped, to Afghanistan.

All of this fit perfectly with what I had discovered: first wife died in 1873, great-grandfather next seen in 1881 census in different county, under new name. If he had signed on in 1873 and gone to India, five years would take us to 1878, the start of the second A-A war.

My gr-grfather later emigrated first to Australia and then to Canada, under his fake name, with various other little tells I can see apart from the fake surname, evidently to avoid detection (the names and ages of his children on passenger lists are inaccurate, his son's WWI CEF attestation papers state that the parents were of West Ham, when they had been in Canada a decade and the mother was deceased). Apparently he had nightmares all his long life about the old Queen coming to get him.

So, a question out of all this. ;) (I thought you might be interested in the tale anyhow, as flesh on the bones of one of the people profoundly affected by it all.)

Would there be any record of him at all, anywhere, relating to his being in the military/deserting in India? (He was living in Berkshire at the time he would have enrolled, although he was from Cornwall and had more recently lived in Poplar.) I should give his original name -- unfortunately not uncommon: Ernest Hill. I haven't been able to find any trace of him in military records, but that isn't my forte.

More generally, I have gathered that he was not the only soldier to say farewell rather than go to Afghanistan in 1878. A smart choice; how history does repeat itself. Do you have any knowledge, generally, about these so-called desertions? (I say so-called because in my gr-grf's case, at least as the tale is told, it was the state that broke its promise, not him.)

Any background-type info about thiis situation that you might have would be of interest - thanks!
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: GrahamSimons on Wednesday 05 September 12 20:43 BST (UK)
Interesting indeed! I have found a relation involved in that Afghan campaign, and you may like to add him to your database. Here's what I know, and there is a small question buried at the end.

He was born John James Henry Simons, son of John Simons and Frances [whose full maiden name I believe to be Frances Money Carter Stevens], in St Pancras in 1844;  baptised Old Church, St Pancras 28th November. He was third of seven children, all of whom seem to have been of interest in one way or another – many changed their surnames, and three more had connections with India.

His service as far as I've traced it is: Ensign 41st Foot The Welsh Regiment 11/1/1867; thence to Bengal Staff Corps 2/1/1871 as Lieutenant; 11/1/1879 as Captain; 11/1/1887 as Major, Lt Colonel 11/1/1893. On 29/9/1899 he was listed on the unemployed supernumerary list. His record of service with the 41st Foot is at The National Archives but adds little to this; it states he served abroad in India from 26/7/1867 and then transferred to the Bengal Staff Corps. The marriage and legitimate children sections of his record are blank (since he married after transfer to the Staff Corps, to Lily Alice Hugh Drummond, in 1881 in Sutlej). It seems he purchased his commission. This fits with a Gazette entry: 41st Foot, Lieutenant John James Money-Simons receives the value of an Ensigncy on transfer to the Indian Staff Corps. [publ 13 August 1872].


Other notes say he lived after leaving the army in Glen Alla Ray, County Londonderry.


The War Service section of the Army List is useful. Afghan War 1878-80: Mentioned in Dispatches 4/5/1880. With the Thai Chotiali Field Force, advance to and defence of Judulluck, action of Saidabad, march from Kabul to the relief of Kandahar, 1st September. Medal and Clasp. Hazara Expedition 1888: Medal and Clasp.

From India Lists etc: Kandahar 1/9/1880; Mentioned in Dispatches (General Biddulph's no 194 16/5/1879).
Spoke Punjabi.
1871 24th Native Infantry [this later becomes 24th Bengal Infantry], Lt 2/1/1871, First Wing Subaltern, still listed as J J M Simons.
1879 Captain from 2/12/1875
1882 Now listed as Money-Simons [Comment: was this triggered by an inheritance? His youngest sister changed her name to Money at some stage.]
1888 Major from 25/4/1888

He died at the Hotel d'Angleterre, Vevey, Switzerland, 28/6/1930, estate value £2564/10/1. Buried 8th July in East Sheen Cemetery.

His probate record is also interesting: The Admon was grated to his brother Herbert Rowland Symons [another name change] states that he was a widower without issue or parent, intestate; the admon is granted to Herbert, the lawful brother, on 1st October 1930. This was revoked as his Will had come to light. The Will, made 15th July 1921, states that he was of Belgrave Hotel, Llandrindod Wells, a retired Lt Col ISC. The sole beneficiary was to be his wife [who predeceased him in 1924]; he appointed his brother-in-law Major John William Ainley Drummond as executor; witnessed by T H Powell, solicitor of Llandilo, Carmarthenshire and Henry Phillips of Begelly Rectory, Pembrokeshire. An affidavit was filed that he was a British subject, he made his will in Wales and that his domicile of origin was English. Will proved 21st Nov 1930.

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: GrahamSimons on Wednesday 05 September 12 20:45 BST (UK)
...and here is the text as I couldn't fit it into my previous posting:

Now the latest discovery, from the Hampshire Telegraph and Sussex Chronicle of 12th March 1881.

I quote the article in full to help put it in context: and my question is, was this march back to British India under pressure of weather or of enemy action? It certainly looks as if he was under pressure and over-reacted – indeed judging from the article I'm surprised he was only found guilty on one count, and the effects on poor Khodadad Khan were pretty dire. What were the 24th Native Infantry doing, had they had a mauling at the hands of the Afghans?

SERIOUS CHARGES AGAINST AN OFFICER -.At a general court-martial, assembled at Mooltan on January 10th. 1881, Captain John James Money-Simons, 24th Bengal N.I., was charged with conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline, in the following instances :-First,- having, when in command of a detachment on the line of march from Afghanistan to British India, on October 2nd, 1880, upon a hasty and wholly insufficient inquiry, ordered Khodadad Khan, a sepoy of the 24th Bengal  N.I., to be flogged for the alleged offence that he had neglected to obey the detachment order which prohibited any soldier from riding in a cart without permission of competent authority, whereas he, Khodadad Khan, had in fact received the permission of Hospital Assistant Mahommed Yassein Khan, of the Subordinate Medical Department, to ride on a hospital cart, because he, Khodadad Khan, was suffering from a sore heel, the said Mahommed Yassein Khan being under such conditions competent authority. Second, - With having, when in command of a detachment on the line of march from Afghanistan to British India, on October 2, 1880, administered corporal punishment to Khodadad Khan, a sepoy of the 24th Bengal N.I., illegally, that is to say, without trial. Third, with having, when in command of a detachment on the line of march from Afghanistan to British India, on October 2, 1880, administered corporal punishment to Khodadad Khan. a Sepoy of the 24th Bengal N.I. otherwise than upon the bare back in accordance with the usage of the Service, by which conduct he, Khodadad Khan, believed that a stigma was cast upon him, and that he was disgraced in the eyes of his comrades. The Court found that Captain Money-Simons was not guilty of the first instance of the charge; guilty of the second instance of the  charge; not guilty of the third instance of the charge; and guilty of the preamble of the charge as respects its application to the second instance of the same only: in and sentenced him to be reprimanded. In confirming the decision the Commander-in-Chief gives the following reasons for commuting the court-martial sentence of death on Khodadad, the sepoy concerned in Captain Money-Simons' case. for firing at a superior officer:- “In my minute on the proceedings of the  general court-martial held on Khodadad, sepoy, 24th Punjab [sic] N.I.. I stated that my reasons for commuting  the sentence to transportation for life would be published to the Army. Those reasons are contained in the proceedings of the present court-martial on Captain Money-Simons, who has been convicted of conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline, in having illegally flogged Sepoy Khodadad. Although it is not any justification, yet when I was called upon to confirm the sentence of death, I was confronted with the fact that the crime of the prisoner had its origin in the illegal act of his superior officer, Capt. Money-Simons, and I was constrained by this cause to to commute the sentence to transportation for life."
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: magsb123 on Friday 07 September 12 16:44 BST (UK)
I am seeking information on two brothers Robert John Nicholson b1856 St Georges East and Alfred Albert Nicholson b1859 St Georges East. The last information we have regarding them is in the 1871 census where they are with their parents Robert and Catherine Nicholson (nee Pendlebury). It is believed that they both were involved in the Anglo-Afghan war but it is not known which regiment they may have served. They both seemed to have died in Afghanistan. Do you have any information regarding Robert and Alfred? Thanks for your time.
Margaret.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 18 September 12 22:49 BST (UK)
...

Would there be any record of him at all, anywhere, relating to his being in the military/deserting in India? (He was living in Berkshire at the time he would have enrolled, although he was from Cornwall and had more recently lived in Poplar.) I should give his original name -- unfortunately not uncommon: Ernest Hill. I haven't been able to find any trace of him in military records, but that isn't my forte.

More generally, I have gathered that he was not the only soldier to say farewell rather than go to Afghanistan in 1878. A smart choice; how history does repeat itself. Do you have any knowledge, generally, about these so-called desertions? (I say so-called because in my gr-grf's case, at least as the tale is told, it was the state that broke its promise, not him.)

Any background-type info about thiis situation that you might have would be of interest - thanks!

Hello Janey

Thanks for your fascinating story!

If Ernest Hill was in the army then there should be some documentation of some kind, under either his real or assumed name. I guess as he deserted then there wouldn't be a pension record. The thing to do would be to try and discover the regiment (possibly the 66th Foot if he joined up in Berkshire - in which case he did very well to avoid service in Afghanistan and their eventual fate - Maiwand) and then check the muster rolls to see if he appears there.

I'm not sure about his 'contracted 5 years' … soldiers signed up for 12 years (after the 1870 Cardwell Reforms) - 6 in the Colours, 6 in the Reserve - with an option to extend to 21.

Desertion was not at all uncommon - I have several examples in my own (extended) family history for a variety of reasons. I can't say how common or uncommon it would have been to desert with the intention of avoiding a looming campaign, particularly the Second Afghan War, as my research really only brings me to those who were actually in the campaign.

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 18 September 12 22:53 BST (UK)
...and here is the text as I couldn't fit it into my previous posting:

Now the latest discovery, from the Hampshire Telegraph and Sussex Chronicle of 12th March 1881.

I quote the article in full to help put it in context: and my question is, was this march back to British India under pressure of weather or of enemy action? It certainly looks as if he was under pressure and over-reacted – indeed judging from the article I'm surprised he was only found guilty on one count, and the effects on poor Khodadad Khan were pretty dire. What were the 24th Native Infantry doing, had they had a mauling at the hands of the Afghans?

Hello Graham

Thanks very much for all those details on John J H Money-Simons - I'll be delighted to add him to the database.

And what an interesting story. Money-Simons served with the Transport Dept. at Multan throughout the first campaign of the Afghan war and then with the 24th Bengal Infantry in the second, seeing fighting at Jagdalak (Dec 1879), Shekabad (Apr 1880) and Kandahar (Sep 1880).

I've been unable to find exactly when the 24th BNI left Kandahar to return to India, but I suspect it was one of the first regiments out in early Sep. The journey back would not have been an easy one, mainly due to the rough road and heat, but the local tribes were chastened by the Afghan defeat, and the 24th were not part of General Macgregor's Marri County expedition - they went straight back to Matun (whether by the Bolan route with either Baker or Macpherson, or the Harnai route with Macgregor, I'm not sure, but I'd like to find out).

So I'm not aware of anything other than a long, hot journey that added to any pressure - except, I guess, for the additional fact that they had just spent a month marching from Kabul to Kandahar, followed by a battle the day after their arrival (on 1st Sep). I'm not surprised Khodadad Khan had a sore heel!

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 18 September 12 22:54 BST (UK)
I am seeking information on two brothers Robert John Nicholson b1856 St Georges East and Alfred Albert Nicholson b1859 St Georges East. The last information we have regarding them is in the 1871 census where they are with their parents Robert and Catherine Nicholson (nee Pendlebury). It is believed that they both were involved in the Anglo-Afghan war but it is not known which regiment they may have served. They both seemed to have died in Afghanistan. Do you have any information regarding Robert and Alfred? Thanks for your time.
Margaret.

Hello Margaret

Without a regiment it would be quite a task to search the Afghan war medal roll for them - though actually, if you have an Ancestry account, you can now search the medal roll there (I only have a copy of the hand-written roll and my Ancestry account has lapsed).

I did a quick search of the London Gazette and the Nicholsons do not turn up as casualties there (though the search, based on OCR text recognition, may not be totally accurate) - so if they did die in Afghanistan, it may have been from illness (which did take off a large number of men, eg. cholera, heat exhaustion).

If you have any other info or sources for their part in the Afghan War or their military service, do please let me know.

Best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: magsb123 on Wednesday 19 September 12 00:45 BST (UK)
Hello Garen,
Thanks for your reply regarding Robert and Alfred Nicholson. I have found one entry for a Robert Nicholson in the Afghan Campaign and his regiment number is 2326. His medal remarks seem to say OC RA Sinbid Dv 5/1/82. Can you tell me anything further from those details? Cheers, Margaret.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 19 September 12 08:40 BST (UK)
Can you tell me his regiment, Margaret? Is he in the Royal Artillery?

Many thanks - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: magsb123 on Wednesday 19 September 12 10:13 BST (UK)
Hello Garen,
I found the entry for Robert Nicholson on A......... -  UK Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls 1793-1949. It looks as though he may have been in the Royal Artillery with the initials OC RA Sirkund Div or Dist (?)5 January 1882. He appears to have served at Charasdia (?) and Kabul and defence of Sherpin (?). His rank looks like D Privet (?). Hope you can make something out of the above. Thanks, Margaret.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: JaneyCanuck on Wednesday 19 September 12 16:41 BST (UK)
The thing to do would be to try and discover the regiment (possibly the 66th Foot if he joined up in Berkshire - in which case he did very well to avoid service in Afghanistan and their eventual fate - Maiwand) and then check the muster rolls to see if he appears there.

Thank you -- Berkshire does seem to be where he would have been, so that is a very handy bit of info, and something to while away some time reading up on.

In this family there is a complex web of how people from apparently disparate geographic and socioeconomic backgrounds could have met -- we have the marriage in Berkshire in the mid-1870s of the rich heir boy from Wales (bankrupted in the 1880s, apparently as a result of fondness for the ponies) and the girl from Cornwall who was on the stage in London, Hill's sister, her economic situation just unfathomable, but whose estranged? father was in the same business as the boy's uncle: was it their family business connections, or was he a stage-door johnny?? On a birth certificate c1880, the husband is identified as late of 105th foot, and the Gazette shows him resigning his commission just before: possibly yet another way the couple could have met, i.e. through her brother the deserter if he and the rich boy were acquainted in India. And so that could be another place to look for Hill in the military. He appears to have followed the couple to where they settled after the rich boy left the military.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/105th_Regiment_of_Foot_%28Madras_Light_Infantry%29
(Looking for the rich boy here and there, it does not help at all that he had the exact same full name and was just about the same age as a very famous Admiral, which gave me 2 minutes of excitement when I first tried to figure out whom this previously unheard of sister had married ...)

I'm not sure about his 'contracted 5 years' … soldiers signed up for 12 years (after the 1870 Cardwell Reforms) - 6 in the Colours, 6 in the Reserve - with an option to extend to 21.

I know ... that 5 years does sound like a bit of a self-serving invention, doesn't it? ;)

Thank you very, very much for your reply. If I ever find him in military records, I'll let you know here!

By the way -- a few years ago when I was first discovering all this, I happened to pick up the charity shop Penguin copy of Kipling's The Man Who Would Be King that had long been languishing on a bookshelf, and coincidentally, the Michael Caine / Sean Connery film version came on TV shortly after. I'm sure you know them, but for anyone who doesn't, a bit of English-in-Afghanistan historical fantasy (but don't read the plot!):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Would_Be_King
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Would_Be_King_%28film%29


(Military problems run on both sides of my family: Hill's counterpart's son on my other side was discharged with ignominy from the Dragoon Guards at the age of 16! He promptly re-enlisted under an altered name, gained a WWI battlefield commission, and went on to further ignominy in Ireland in the 20s. And another one on that side enlisted in the 9th regiment of foot on Christmas Eve 1814 at 16: very hungry, or very drunk?)
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 19 September 12 16:58 BST (UK)
Hello Garen,
I found the entry for Robert Nicholson on A......... -  UK Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls 1793-1949. It looks as though he may have been in the Royal Artillery with the initials OC RA Sirkund Div or Dist (?)5 January 1882. He appears to have served at Charasdia (?) and Kabul and defence of Sherpin (?). His rank looks like D Privet (?). Hope you can make something out of the above. Thanks, Margaret.


Hello Margaret

Thanks for that info. From your details I could see he was in the Royal Artillery, so I was able to find him on my own copy of the roll.

He was in F Battery A Brigade Royal Horse Artillery (F/A RHA) and was a Driver. As you say, his service number was 2326 and he had the Afghan War medal with clasps for Charasia and Kabul (including the defence of Sherpur).

The other bits are under the column 'Medal to whom' and say O.C. RA Si[..]d D[..] 5/1/82. I think that means the medal was sent to the Officer Commanding the Royal Artillery at Sirhind (I think) Division or Depot on 5 Jan 1882.

If this is indeed your Robert Nicholson then we can see from the medal roll that he did not die in Afghanistan - he survived the conflict, and he is not on the casualty roll as wounded either. If he did die then it must have been later in India.

F/A RHA started out their Afghan campaign with Roberts at the Peiwar Kotal (though Nicholson was not involved in that action) and then spent the rest of the first campaign in the Kurram Valley and at Ali Khel. In the second campaign the battery was in reserve at the battle of Charasia before moving on to Kabul where they saw heavy action in December (action of Killa Kazi - see here (http://www.garenewing.co.uk/angloafghanwar/narratives/duly.php)). They were in Sherpur during the siege of that cantonment throughout the rest of the month, being put to good use against the enemy. They saw more action at Childukhtean in Apr 1880 and returned to India in May.

With best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: gortonboy on Wednesday 19 September 12 19:52 BST (UK)
hi, Margaret,,,,THERE IS A SERVICE RECORD FOR


First name(s):Robert

Last name:NICHOLSON

Calculated year of birth:1854

Parish of birth:Clonmel

Town of birth:Clonmel

County of birth:Tipperary

Age at attestation:22 years 6 months


Attestation date:4 December 1876


Attestation corps:Royal Artillery
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: magsb123 on Thursday 20 September 12 01:16 BST (UK)
Thank you Garen and Gortonboy for your information on Robert Nicholson. It was interesting to read about the Royal Artillery in Afghanistan but it looks as though I have the wrong Robert. I will have to pursue Robert and his brother at the NA when I am next in Uk. Thank you so much for your interest. Regards, Margaret.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Saturday 22 September 12 14:59 BST (UK)
By the way -- a few years ago when I was first discovering all this, I happened to pick up the charity shop Penguin copy of Kipling's The Man Who Would Be King that had long been languishing on a bookshelf, and coincidentally, the Michael Caine / Sean Connery film version came on TV shortly after. I'm sure you know them, but for anyone who doesn't, a bit of English-in-Afghanistan historical fantasy (but don't read the plot!):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Would_Be_King
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Would_Be_King_%28film%29

Ah, one of my very favourite films ... in fact I even took part in a podcast (http://adventurefilmspodcast.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/adventure-film-2-man-who-would-be-king.html) discussing it (where I also mentioned a few bits about the Afghan War - just to keep on topic :-))

All the best with your continued searches - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Saturday 22 September 12 15:14 BST (UK)
hi, Margaret,,,,THERE IS A SERVICE RECORD FOR

First name(s):Robert
Last name:NICHOLSON
Calculated year of birth:1854
Parish of birth:Clonmel
Town of birth:Clonmel
County of birth:Tipperary
Age at attestation:22 years 6 months
Attestation date:4 December 1876
Attestation corps:Royal Artillery

Thanks gortonboy - and I can confirm this is the chap who was in F/A RHA - his father also called Robert, from Tipperary.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: The Broon on Thursday 18 October 12 18:10 BST (UK)
Hi…just joined the site!

I have come across a distant relatives campaign medal for the second Afghan war. His name is T.Tiffney Reg No 1333 of the 8th Hussars. The medal has no ribbon attached and I am interested in finding one together with any of the clasps that may of been attached. Can anyone tell me where I could find a ribbon for this medal together with any knowledge of which clasps would of been mounted for the 8th Hussars?

Thanks
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 18 October 12 23:03 BST (UK)
Hello there Broon,

Private 1333 Thomas Tiffney, indeed the entire 8th Hussars, was not in receipt of any clasps for his Afghan medal. The 8th were brought on to the Khyber line (Dakka, Basawal, Jamrud) as reinforcements in Dec 1879. They were later involved in the minor action of Mazina and returned to India in Aug 1880.

You can often find Afghan war medal ribbon for sale on ebay.

Best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: The Broon on Friday 19 October 12 09:31 BST (UK)
Thanks for the info Garen, much appreciated. Can I ask how you managed to track down Thomas Tiffney as I am starting down the path of tracing my ancestry and been initially looking at military records sites but all were making no reference to T.Tiffney?
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 19 October 12 14:45 BST (UK)
I have the Afghan War medal roll on CD, so as you knew the regiment (from the medal) I was easily able to find him. The medal roll is also indexed up at ancestry.co.uk - though my own subscription to that has lapsed.

The other place to look, if you haven't already, is on findmypast.co.uk to see if there is a service record available. I had a quick look and couldn't see him - but some more diligent searching may be in order!

Do you know anything else about him, eg. birth or death dates/places, or any family info?

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: The Broon on Saturday 20 October 12 09:10 BST (UK)
Thanks again Garen. Unfortunately we know very little about Thomas. We have looked initially through the websites you have mentioned but feel, as you suggest, we may need to go into a greater level of detail. Thanks again for your assistance.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Saturday 20 October 12 10:27 BST (UK)
Good luck!
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: gortonboy on Saturday 20 October 12 18:57 BST (UK)
wonder if this could be his son??

Name: TIFFNEY, Thomas

 Station : Dinapore

 Country: Indian Subcontinent

 Year: 1882

Page: 257

Record source: GRO Army Birth Indices (1881 to 1965)
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: The Broon on Saturday 20 October 12 21:18 BST (UK)
Great…that gives me another avenue to explore…thanks
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: jimbo09 on Monday 26 November 12 20:55 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen,
My Ancestor Charles JC Sillery was with the 12th foot in India from 1876 to 1882.
Your site indicates the 12th took part in the Afghan war.

Do you have records of his time there?

Jimbo
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 29 November 12 10:58 GMT (UK)
Hello Jimbo

Couldn't find him at first until I realised he was an officer, not a Private or NCO (the number of middle names pointed me in the right direction!).

Colonel Charles Jocelyn Cecil Sillery served with the 1st battalion 12th Foot throughout their service in the Afghan campaign (Apr 1879 - May 1880), taking part in the expedition against the Wazir Kugianis (Apr 1880) and commanding the detached wing in the operations in the Besud District (May 1880), including the successful action against superior numbers of tribesmen at Beninga (19 May 1880).

b. 1835, Ireland; d.1898, Guernsey.

All best - Garen

Edit: A little research ...

Ensign Jan 1853, 78th Foot. Lieutenant Sep 1854, 30th Foot. Captain Sep 1855. 1st Battalion 12th Foot 1858. New Zealand War 1866. Major May 1871. Exchanged into 2nd Battalion 12th Foot 1875. Lieutenant-Colonel 1877. Afghan War (1st Battalion) Apr 1879 - May 1880, expedition against Kugianis (Apr 1880), Besud expedition (May 1880) and commanding at battle of Beninga (19 May 1880, mentioned in despatches). Colonel 1881. Major-General 1882, appointed to command 2nd Battalion Suffolk Regiment. Retired Apr 1882.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: jimbo09 on Thursday 29 November 12 20:02 GMT (UK)
This is marvellous - thank you
the detail is fantastic.
I hadn't realised that he moved to the 2nd Bn.
Jimbo
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: jedburgh on Sunday 16 December 12 19:59 GMT (UK)
i have come across a kabul star medal for a prvt.w mccormick 72nd highlanders his number is 1*76 (there is only the three digits i can make out i have read the history of this action but cannot find anything about the medal recipient any help would be appreciated.ps this is my first post so apologies for any forum errors
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Sunday 16 December 12 20:49 GMT (UK)
Hello jedburgh

Checking the medal roll, that's Private 1176 William McCormick. As well as the Kandahar Bronze Star he was entitled to the Afghan War medal with clasps for Charasia, Kabul and Kandahar.

All best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Yasmina4 on Sunday 16 December 12 23:45 GMT (UK)
[quote author=Garen
Thanks for the site I have joined  Sandra :)
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: jedburgh on Tuesday 18 December 12 19:48 GMT (UK)
thanks for the information on private w mccormick do you know when he returned to britain
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 18 December 12 20:27 GMT (UK)
I just checked the medal roll for the 72nd (Seaforth) Highlanders in Egypt and William McCormick 1176 is present, gaining the Egypt medal with clasp for Tel-el-Kebir and the Khedive's Star.

This means he left India with the 72nd on the Jumna in Feb 1882, went to Egypt with his regiment for the campaign there, and then (presuming he stayed with his regiment) would have returned to the UK at the beginning of Nov 1882.

All best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: jedburgh on Tuesday 18 December 12 20:40 GMT (UK)
thanks garen i hopei will be able to further my research.as i did not find him on forces war records as there was nothing with his service number that i could find i may have been looking in the  wrong place thanks again
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: jedburgh on Thursday 20 December 12 19:47 GMT (UK)
garen i would be grateful for any other information you can post ref. pvt. w mcormick. ie birth/death when he left the army. thanks
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 20 December 12 21:01 GMT (UK)
Hello jedburgh

If you have a look at findmypast.co.uk there seems to be a little bit of info on Private McCormick - not a full service record (though a more diligent search may find one, I only looked quickly) but follow this link (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/army-service-records-result.action?sdrfnbr=121572077).

That includes the info that he attested in Dec 1866 and was discharged Feb 1885.

Apart from that I think you'd have to check the census returns - 1841 (?), 51, 61, 91, 01 and 1911 and then see if you can dig out any birth, marriage or death records. You can either use the Scottish transcriptions on findmypast.co.uk (they don't yet include 1911) or view the original census documents at scotlandspeople.co.uk - this is presuming he resided in Scotland (is McCormick an Irish name?).

If you're related you probably have more info with which to find the right William McCormick!

With best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: jedburgh on Friday 21 December 12 19:17 GMT (UK)
To Garen I thank you very much for your help I have looked on various sites now  thanks to you help and guidelines Iam sure I will make good progress  .I appreciated your time and diligence
thank you (jedburgh)
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: SeaThreePeeO on Wednesday 20 February 13 18:44 GMT (UK)
Hi, I'm looking for any information on Frederick Charles Boehmer who served with the East Surrey Regiment during the Second Anglo Afghan War.

Any help would be gratefully received.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 20 February 13 23:53 GMT (UK)
Hello

I don't see that name on the Afghan war medal roll for the East Surrey (70th) Regiment. Do you have any more info at all? ie. what's your source for his service in the campaign, any dates or documentation?

Many thanks, all best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 21 February 13 00:18 GMT (UK)
Okay - I see from a previous message you posted that Frederick Charles Boehmer was a Captain, this makes things a little easier and I was able to see from the 1885 Army List that he was commissioned in 1883.

Before that he was a Colour Sergeant in the 51st Foot (South Yorkshire) and did indeed serve in the Afghan war with that regiment - as Colour Sergeant 2494, and was awarded the Afghan war medal with clasp for Ali Masjid (ref. medal roll).

He became a Lieutenant in the Bedfordshire Regiment in Oct 1883 and in Jan 1887 he was seconded for service as Adjutant of the Madras Railway Volunteers; he was seconded for service as Adjutant in the East Indian Railway Volunteer Rifle Corps in Mar 1889 (ref. London Gazette).

The 1890 Army List shows that he became Captain in Mar 1889 and that he was at that time serving with the East Surreys. It also notes he served in the Jowaki campaign (India medal with Jowaki clasp) and the Afghan war (Afghan medal with Ali Musjid clasp), both with the 51st.

He was placed on temporary half-pay due to ill health in May 1896, and placed on retired pay Nov 1896 (ref. London Gazette).

The London Gazette of 7 Jan 1910 seems to indicate that he died 22 Oct 1909.

Hope that is of interest.

Best wishes -
Garen

P.S. Looking further ... it seems he was Agatha Christie's uncle?
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: SeaThreePeeO on Thursday 21 February 13 10:33 GMT (UK)
Thank you Garen, that is fantastic and really helps fill in a few gaps!

I am aware of the Agatha Christie connection.  I stumbled upon Frederick's decaying gravestone in my local cemetery.  It peaked my interest and I googled his name.  Obviously his famous niece is well documented, but there seems to be very little information available about Frederick and his life.

Thank you once again for the information you have found.  Looks like Frederick led a very interesting life.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 21 February 13 12:31 GMT (UK)
You're most welcome.

It seems as though he had a tragic death - his body was found in a train carriage at Maidenhead Station along with, seemingly, a suicide note. His son, Frederick Fitzgerald West Boehmer, became a Commander in the Royal Navy (he was subject to a court martial in 1946 for unauthorised possession of Navy furniture and found not guilty).

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: SeaThreePeeO on Thursday 21 February 13 15:16 GMT (UK)
Goodness!  How awful.  Do you have a link to where you found this information?  I feel a trip to Maidenhead Library coming on.  I know his father died in a tragic accident in 1863, unfortunately having just invested his savings and leaving his wife penniless.  She had no choice but to split the children up.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 21 February 13 17:19 GMT (UK)
A search this morning over at The British Newspaper Archive (http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/) - the Manchester Courier of 29 Oct 1909 has a short piece and the Derby Daily Telegraph of 25 Oct 1909 mentions a gunshot wound. Very sad.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: SeaThreePeeO on Thursday 21 February 13 17:28 GMT (UK)
Thank you so much for your wonderful help.  I feel as if I have come to know poor Frederick.

It's so sad that his life began with a tragedy and ended in the same way.  Who knows what demons he battled in life.  Next visit I shall take him some flowers.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 22 February 13 00:47 GMT (UK)
A very nice idea.

I have added Frederick Boehmer to my Afghan war database so he has a permanent entry (http://www.angloafghanwar.info/database/permalink.php?pid=1096) there now, too.

Thanks for your enquiry - terrific to learn about him.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Mr.S. on Sunday 28 April 13 15:05 BST (UK)
Trying to find information on my greatgrandfather Michael slattery,born ballina ,County mayo ~1857.Joined the army in1872-2nd.battalion of the 9th.Foot(Norfolk)Regiment which went to India ~1874.He was discharged in Glasgow in 1879.
Are you able to help ?
Denis.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: gortonboy on Monday 29 April 13 03:36 BST (UK)
hi,,,what info are you looking for?  ;)
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Mr.S. on Monday 29 April 13 09:42 BST (UK)
Possible army service in India.
The only information that I have is when he joined and when he applied for discharge in 1879.
from 1880 to his death in 1910 he was employed in the shale oil industry in West lothian,as a labourer.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 02 May 13 22:47 BST (UK)
Trying to find information on my greatgrandfather Michael slattery,born ballina ,County mayo ~1857.Joined the army in1872-2nd.battalion of the 9th.Foot(Norfolk)Regiment which went to India ~1874.He was discharged in Glasgow in 1879.
Are you able to help ?
Denis.

Hello Denis

I don't see Michael Slattery on the Afghan War medal roll for the 9th Foot.

You say he joined up in 1872 and was discharged in 1879 ... the 9th Foot went to India in the Jumna in Oct/Nov 1874 and partook in the Jowaki campaign (1877/78). For the Afghan war only two companies of the 9th Foot received the Afghan war medal for service in the first campaign (Nov 1878 - May 1879). The full regiment was involved in the second campaign, from Sep 1879, by which time, it seems, Michael Slattery was back home - or at least on his way.

Have you looked for his service record at findmypast.co.uk? That would confirm whether he had the Jowaki medal, and would supply more precise dates to see what he was doing in relation to his regiment's Afghan involvement.

Best regards -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Mr.S. on Friday 03 May 13 14:37 BST (UK)
Michael slattery.
Sorry you could not find anything about Michael slattery .

Denis.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 15 May 13 21:22 BST (UK)
Hello Denis - apologies for the delay.

That service sheet (and the others with it on FindMyPast) don't seem to include his earlier service so I can't tell from it if he served in India. He wasn't in the Afghan war, but he might have been part of the Jowaki campaign. Have a look at UK Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls 1793-1949 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1686&o_xid=51524&o_lid=51524&o_sch=Email) on Ancestry - they have the Jowaki medal roll there (actually India General Service medal with clasp for Jowaki).

Best of luck! - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 15 May 13 21:24 BST (UK)
Sorry - double post; deleted.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Telligan on Tuesday 21 May 13 05:51 BST (UK)
Hi, my ancestor Joseph Chambers - Private No 1370. 85th Regiment.Enlisted 22 July 1867 Newcastle-0n-Tyne
I know he was awarded the Afghan War Medal have an old picture with him wearing it.
Served 132yrs .246 days Conduct & Character while with the colours have been very good in possesion of 3 good conduct badges. Discharge confirmed Simla 24th Feb 1881.
I would be grateful of any further info.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Mr.S. on Wednesday 22 May 13 12:20 BST (UK)
Hi Garen,checked ancestry but no real conclusions,not enough evidence.3 results-
(a)regiment no.1358 michael slattery listed as drummer.hort service and then discharged(t.e ?)
(b)87th.regiment reg.no.1775 Michael slattery,medal India,discharged.
(c)reg.no.1658,service Cos.cannot make out remark'heads inortens?'
  Thats all I have found but a Michael Slattery was in the 9th.foot during Crimean War but no details of him so do not know if related ,my Michael father's was given as Patrick.
any help ?
Denis.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 28 May 13 15:56 BST (UK)
Hi, my ancestor Joseph Chambers - Private No 1370. 85th Regiment.Enlisted 22 July 1867 Newcastle-0n-Tyne
I know he was awarded the Afghan War Medal have an old picture with him wearing it.
Served 132yrs .246 days Conduct & Character while with the colours have been very good in possesion of 3 good conduct badges. Discharge confirmed Simla 24th Feb 1881.
I would be grateful of any further info.

Hello Telligan

I'm guessing by the exact duration of service you already have his service papers, so I don't think there's much else I can offer - except that the medal roll includes the note "Discharged March 1881 - free to Australia".

The 85th got into Afghanistan in the second campaign, arriving at Kohat in mid October 1879 and going on into the Kuram Valley as part of General Tytler's brigade. They took part in the Zaimukht (or Zaimusht) expedition in Dec 1879, including the attack on Zawa on 14 Dec. Throughout the following year they were mostly employed on the lines of communication in the Kuram, and returned to India in Jan 1881.

Best wishes -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 28 May 13 15:59 BST (UK)
Hi Garen,checked ancestry but no real conclusions,not enough evidence.3 results-
(a)regiment no.1358 michael slattery listed as drummer.hort service and then discharged(t.e ?)
(b)87th.regiment reg.no.1775 Michael slattery,medal India,discharged.
(c)reg.no.1658,service Cos.cannot make out remark'heads inortens?'
  Thats all I have found but a Michael Slattery was in the 9th.foot during Crimean War but no details of him so do not know if related ,my Michael father's was given as Patrick.
any help ?
Denis.

Hello Denis - sorry I can't help any further. My limited expertise ends at the borders of Afghanistan 1878-80! Perhaps the next thing to do is to check the Muster Rolls (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/army-muster-1730-1898.htm).

All the best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 28 May 13 16:38 BST (UK)
Hi Garen and All

My Relation is a Joseph Roden from West Deeping, 6250 Bombardier Royal Artilery 6 Battery 3rd Brigade (taken from the 1881 Census), he was living with his sister-in-law, a widow. He was to receive the Campaign medal according to the Royal Artillery - Afghan 1878-1890, South Africa 1879, Egypt 1882  Page 18 of 298. He died in West Deeping of Acute Acute bronchitis 12th Apr 1881. The death cert states he was 'Royal Horse Artilleryman'.

I would to know more, such as when he joined up and locations during this campaign plus any other wars / service history. Also what some of the short hand means on the RHS column.

There are 4 records at http://www.findmypast.co.uk/army-service-records-search.action?submit=1&redef=X&birthYear=1844&birthYearTolerance=2&attestationYear=&attestationYearTolerance=2&series=ALL
 (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/army-service-records-search.action?submit=1&redef=X&birthYear=1844&birthYearTolerance=2&attestationYear=&attestationYearTolerance=2&series=ALL) but I don't have subscription to there.

Mark

Hello Mark

Thanks for posting the medal roll and Joseph's details. The unit he was in was actually C Battery 3rd Brigade - C/3 RA, not 6/3 RA (the 1881 census entry is incorrectly transcribed).

They spent the first campaign of the Afghan war stationed at Daka, just beyond the Khyber Pass, and were involved in the Kam Daka action of April 1879. They returned to India in Jun 1879. In the second campaign the battery was again in the Khyber region, in and around Jalalabad, taking part in many minor expeditions. They returned again to India in Aug 1880.

The notes on the right of the medal roll show his death date and place, and who the medal was sent to. You'll see most went to 'OC' - Officer Commanding ... then whichever battery (eg. OC 1st Bde [Brigade] Rawal Pindi). Quite a few who died (the battery lost about 23 men to cholera on their first return to India) were sent to A.G - not sure what that means, I'm afraid ... Artillery something? (Is it a G?).

None of the four WO/121 or WO/131 records on FindMyPast relate to your Joseph - probably because he died still in service. (There is also a WO/97 for a Joseph Roden, but he was born in 1882).

I would question his entitlement to the 1879 South Africa medal (unless he was in a different battery in 1879) and the Egypt 1882 medal (if he died in Apr 1881) - what is your source for these?

With best wishes -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: DISCLOSE on Wednesday 29 May 13 23:15 BST (UK)
Hello Garen,

So good of you to give me more info. Will you be adding Uncle Joe  ;) to your database? Hope you can.

Quote
I would question his entitlement to the 1879 South Africa medal (unless he was in a different battery in 1879) and the Egypt 1882 medal (if he died in Apr 1881) - what is your source for these?
The source was the UK, Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1949
Quote

Name:   Joseph Roden
Campaign or Service:   Afghan
Service Date:   1878-1882
Regimental Number:   6250

and it has this root / title
Code: [Select]
Asia  > Afghanistan, Egypt, South Africa 1878-1882  > Royal Artillery - Afghan 1878-1890, South Africa 1879, Egypt 1882  >  Page   of 298

I took an image of the campaign medal with clasps, I am not sure what clasps if any he should have, can you let me know what you think?

I seems strange he joined up just for this Campaign which is why I wondered if he had joined earlier. Is there a way to find out when he enlisted to the RHA?

Now what we need is HBO / Showtime or another US TV producer to make an Drama epic with your database, and have occasional mentions of all our relatives ;-)

Thanks once again.


Apologies to rootsChat team for posting a full crown copyright image instead of a partial.

MOD COMMENT: Screen grab removed according to rootschat policy. Please see here for more info:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 30 May 13 17:02 BST (UK)
Hello Garen,

So good of you to give me more info. Will you be adding Uncle Joe  ;) to your database? Hope you can.

Yes, definitely - many thanks for the info you have supplied.

Quote
The source was the 
UK, Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1949

Ah, I see - sorry, that makes sense. It's the set of rolls  rather than actual medals.

Quote
I took an image of the campaign medal with clasps, I am not sure what clasps if any he should have, can you let me know what you think?

As part of C/3 RA Joseph would not have been awarded any clasps - you can see on the medal roll that none of the clasp columns are checked, and this is correct for that Battery. The action of Kam Daka (21 Apr 1879) that they had some involvement in is an interesting one - read up on Captain O' Moore Creagh who won his VC there!

Quote
I seems strange he joined up just for this Campaign which is why I wondered if he had joined earlier. Is there a way to find out when he enlisted to the RHA?

Probably the next best thing, with no service record seemingly available, would be the Muster Rolls (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/army-muster-1730-1898.htm).

All best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Goldhain on Monday 13 January 14 15:22 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen

I'm interested in finding out more about Samuel Phillips who served in this war and wonder if you could help, please.  All I have so far is a Colchester Garrison report from the Essex Standard which states that Gentleman Cadet Samuel Phillips from the Royal Military College was appointed ensign to 18th (Royal Irish?) Regiment of Foot on 21 Aug 1868.  I know that this Regiment served in the Afghan war and have picked up a Phillips, S in the UK, Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1949 being entitled to the medal (which was sent to him on 23.11.1881) for the Afghan war.  He was then a Captain.  The only other remark made is Leave Med Certificate.

Any info or pointers for me, please.  I don't even know his date or place of birth!

Thank you, Pippa
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 14 January 14 00:33 GMT (UK)
Hello Pippa

I've done some research into Captain Samuel Phillips ...

As you say, he was Ensign (by purchase) into the 18th Foot from cadetship at the Royal Military College in Aug 1868. He was Lieutenant in Oct 1871, Adjutant of the regiment from Aug 1873 - May 1874, Captain Jun 1880 and Major in Aug 1888. He seems to have retired not long after that.

In the Afghan War he served with his regiment on the Khyber line in 1880. They suffered a lot from heat and cholera, and this might explain his medical leave to England c.1881. He rejoined the 1st Battalion in India in Feb 1882.

In Jan 1884 he was appointed as Adjutant to the 4th North Tipperary Militia. Later in life, c.1899, he was High Sheriff of Gaile, Tipperary.

Gaile, County Tipperary, is where he was born in 1849 - and according to a public family tree on Ancestry he also died there - in 1919. He married Helen Clementina Fraser (née Gilchrist) in 1885 and they had three children: Richard, Moira and Aileen.

Samuel Phillips can be found on the 1871 census (Raglan Barracks, Devonport), the 1891 census (Leinster Gardens, Paddington) and the 1911 census (Oakley Hall, Basingstoke).

I hope this is of interest.

Best wishes -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Goldhain on Tuesday 14 January 14 07:44 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen

Wow, lots of info - thanks so much!

A couple of initial queries:  first, puzzled about the position as Adjutant in another regiment when he had been Captain in the 18th - isn't this a demotion?  Also, I see that he went on to become a Major in the 18th Foot, I wonder how the involvement in the second regiment worked - I presume that an officer can only be with one regiment at a time.  Any ideas as to what could have been the background here?

Many thanks again, Pippa 
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 14 January 14 10:20 GMT (UK)
Hello Pippa

The Royal Irish Regiment had two regular battalions (1st and 2nd) and, after 1881, two Militia battalions (3rd - Wexford Regiment, and 4th - North Tipperary), so he was still with the Royal Irish.

Sometimes it is the case that an officer is seconded to another regiment while still being on the list of his main regiment - though that's not the case here.

In the 1885 Army List, Phillips is listed as a Captain under the Royal Irish (18th), with a note that he is also Adjutant of the 4th Battalion. When he was promoted Major in 1888, he was announced under the The Royal Irish Regiment - Major, and Adjutant of the 4th Battalion.

By the way - looking at the London Gazette again, I now see that he retired in Oct 1888.

I'm not an expert in the regimental system, but I hope that's made things a little clearer! :-)

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Goldhain on Tuesday 14 January 14 13:27 GMT (UK)
Thanks for clarifying this, Garen.  I'm new to things military but learning fast!  I see you have a website - I must have a look ...

Last point (promise!), I notice that one of the census entries showed Samuel Phillips living in barracks.  Does this mean that soldiers should appear on census returns in the usual way if the live in army accomodation in a garrison etc?  I am particularly interested in seeing if I can establish exactly when Samuel Phillips was living in Colchester (I picked up news of his appointment as ensign from the Colchester Garrison news in a local paper) and, particularly, whether he was there in 1875/6 and 1880/81.  Sorry, I appreciate that this is beyond your Afghan War remit but if you have any further pointers for my research, it would be appreciated. 

BW and thanks again, Pippa
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 14 January 14 15:41 GMT (UK)
Yes - soldiers in the UK in barracks etc. (and often on troopships too) will be reported as normal in the ten-yearly census returns.

In the 1871 census it was the Second Battalion that was at Devonport.

In 1875 and 1876 the First Battalion was at Bareilly (India); the Second Battalion was at Shorncliffe and Aldershot for summer drills in 1875, and then at Colchester - until about July 1876.

In 1880 the First Battalion marched to Peshawar and served in the Afghan War on the Khyber line, largely around Landi Kotal. They returned to Peshawar in Mar 1881 and were there at the time of the 1881 census in the UK (or had just left on their way to Rawalpindi). After various places in India they sailed for Egypt in Aug 1884 and were back in the UK in Sep 1885 (Phillips is not mentioned among the officers who served in Egypt).

I've done a bit of a more thorough search in the newspapers, and it does seem as though Samuel Philips was in Colchester c. June 1876 ... 'Lieut. Phillips, 18th Regt.' is mentioned in some cricket results for the Colchester Garrison (in another it's 'G. Phillips, 18th Regt'. - but I wonder if the G is an error). 'Mr S. Phillips, 18th (Royal Irish)' is mentioned as a guest at the Grand Calico Ball at Colchester in Oct 1875, while a 'Mr Phillips, 18th Royal Irish' is a guest at the Ball at the Town Hall, Colchester in Jul 1876. So it does look as though he spent that time in Colchester.

I also see that a 'Lieut. Phillips, 18th Foot' embarked at Portsmouth on the Euphrates for India on 13 Dec 1878.

All this would suggest that he started out with the Second Battalion, and perhaps joined the First Battalion in India in 1878.

Happy to help! I learn stuff too :-)

Best - G
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80 medals returned
Post by: Gen List Lass on Friday 07 February 14 09:11 GMT (UK)
I have just found an Ancestry.com entry for medal(s) + clasp awarded in Misc Campaigns 1877/8/9.

Looking at a time line of British campaigns this seems to coincide with the 2nd Anglo Afghan War. Would I be correct?

It said that the medals had been returned, would I be able to find more about the circumstances? I have the name, regiment and Army number of the individual, he was in the 90th Foot Regiment.

Gen in NBL England
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 07 February 14 14:38 GMT (UK)
Hello Gen

Thanks for your message.

From what you've said it is far more likely that you're looking at a recipient of the South Africa medal with a clasp denoting participation in one or more of the campaigns within that locale and period - Galeka, Northern Border, Sekukuni, Moirosi and/or (most famously) the Anglo-Zulu War.

There should be more detail on the medal roll itself.

With best wishes - Garen
Title: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Linjoa on Tuesday 11 February 14 03:38 GMT (UK)
Helping a neighbour with a chap who has been very hard to find infomation on.
William BARBER (born either 1855 Whitechapel MDX or 1857 GLOUCESTERSHIRE Not Known)
received the Afghan medal as per the following newspaper article in 1933 . . . . . . Mr. W. Barber who was 77 spent a considerable part of his life in the army and served full time as a drummer to the Prince of Wales own West Yorkshire regiment.  He was one of the few holders of the Afghan medal . . .  . .
From Ancestry's UK Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls 1793-1949 I believe the following is him . . .2nd Battallion, 14th Regiment of Foot, PWO Yorkshire Regiment No 2/14 2494, William Barber, Drummer.  I have been unable to find out anything further on William and hope someone could suggest a place to look . . ?

Thanks, Linda
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Gen List Lass on Tuesday 11 February 14 17:18 GMT (UK)
Thank you Garen. Medal Roll - N.A. or Imperial War Museum?

Gen in NBL England

Hello Gen

Thanks for your message.

From what you've said it is far more likely that you're looking at a recipient of the South Africa medal with a clasp denoting participation in one or more of the campaigns within that locale and period - Galeka, Northern Border, Sekukuni, Moirosi and/or (most famously) the Anglo-Zulu War.

There should be more detail on the medal roll itself.

With best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 13 February 14 18:04 GMT (UK)
Helping a neighbour with a chap who has been very hard to find infomation on.
William BARBER (born either 1855 Whitechapel MDX or 1857 GLOUCESTERSHIRE Not Known)
received the Afghan medal as per the following newspaper article in 1933 . . . . . . Mr. W. Barber who was 77 spent a considerable part of his life in the army and served full time as a drummer to the Prince of Wales own West Yorkshire regiment.  He was one of the few holders of the Afghan medal . . .  . .
From Ancestry's UK Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls 1793-1949 I believe the following is him . . .2nd Battallion, 14th Regiment of Foot, PWO Yorkshire Regiment No 2/14 2494, William Barber, Drummer.  I have been unable to find out anything further on William and hope someone could suggest a place to look . . ?

Thanks, Linda

Hello Linda

Have a look on Find My Past to see if there is a service record (WO97) for 2494 William Barber. I did see there is a WO121 discharge paper (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/army-service-records-result.action?sdrfnbr=121477718), which doesn't contain a lot of information, but gives a discharge date of Feb 1883.

If he joined for 12 years short service (which came in in 1870), then that would have been 1871, the year of the census. If William was with the 2/14th Foot (PWO West Yorks.) from enlistment, then they were in England at that time - in Sheffield (he'd have been young, but if a drummer - possible).

For the 1881 census period, the 2/14th were still in India (Nowshera).

I don't know if the obituary notice you have mentions a wife or children - but maybe look for them instead.

Apart from that - all the usual - birth, marr, death, census, etc etc ...

Best wishes -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 13 February 14 20:59 GMT (UK)
Thank you Garen. Medal Roll - N.A. or Imperial War Museum?

Gen in NBL England

Hello Gen - I mean the medal roll you looked at on Ancestry. Although the database category is Misc Campaigns 1877/8/9 the actual roll should say what the campaign was and it should also say what the clasp is for.

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Linjoa on Friday 14 February 14 05:13 GMT (UK)
Thank you Garen . . !

>If he joined for 12 years short service (which came in in 1870), then that would have been 1871, the year of the census. If William was with the 2/14th Foot (PWO West Yorks.) from enlistment, then they were in England at that time - in Sheffield (he'd have been young, but if a drummer - possible).

There was a William Barber, aged 14, born London MDX on the 1871 census, Nether Hallam, Sheffield, at the Sheffield Barracks as a 'soldier' which may well be him.

>Have a look on Find My Past to see if there is a service record (WO97) for 2494 William Barber. I did see there is a WO121 discharge paper, which doesn't contain a lot of information, but gives a discharge date of Feb 1883.

This discharge date also fits as William married in 1884 in Bekshire (for the first time) and the second, in 1917 Surrey.  Still awaiting the first marriage cert but from the indexes, his father was also 'William.'
I have looked at some military records on Findmypast but will check again.  None so far had the correct service number. . . . .

William is not with his wife and only daughter in 1891 so only have him for sure in 1901 and 1911.
If in India  in 1881, that rules out that census.  Going backward has been the problem as it's a common name, with losts of options but this soldier in 1871 in Sheffield looks very good . . .!

Many thanks,
Linda

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Goldhain on Wednesday 26 February 14 23:26 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen, remember helping me with some info re Samuel Phillips of the 18th (Royal Irish) Regiment last month?  Well, with your info, I've made good progress with my research but I'm stuck on the last bits of detail and I wondered if you could help me again, please?!

- could you tell me what your source was for Lieut Phillips' journey from Portsmouth to India on the troopship, Euphrates?  I can't find any mention anywhere and wondered if there were 'passenger' lists as such I could see for myself

- The Military Campaign Medals & Award Rolls showed that Captn Phillips was in England on medical leave, as was his colleague Major Robert Adamson, when the Afghan War medals were awarded and his was sent on 23 Nov 1881.  Any ideas as to how I can find out when & how SP returned to England?  I see that a number of invalids are given for some of the returning troopships.  Was there a record of their names that I can see?

- You said that Captn SP rejoined the 1st battalion in India in Feb 1882.  Where did you get this info?  Which troopship was he on and where did it sail from and to?

- You said that SP wasn't named as involved in Egypt after the Anglo-Afghan war.  Where can I find the list of names of those involved?
 
- If he wasn't involved in this Nile Expedition and wasn't with the 1st battalion Royal Irish when it returned to Plymouth from Egypt aboard the Stirling Castle on 9 Sept 1895, can I find out when and how he got back to England earlier?  He was appointed Adjutant to the 4th battalion, Royal Irish on 1st Jan 1884 so maybe that means he was back from India by then (the 1st battalion didn't head from Meerut, India to Egypt until August 1884) - I don't know where the 4th battalion was at the beginning of 1884.  SP married in England in Sept 1885 shortly after the return of the 1st battalion.

Would much appreciate your input if you have time!

Many thanks

Pippa
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 27 February 14 12:28 GMT (UK)
Hello Pippa - I've had a recheck of the sources to confirm the info below ...

- could you tell me what your source was for Lieut Phillips' journey from Portsmouth to India on the troopship, Euphrates?  I can't find any mention anywhere and wondered if there were 'passenger' lists as such I could see for myself

This is from the Hampshire Telegraph (http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk), Wed 18 Dec 1878, saying that L/5 RA "embarked on Friday at Portsmouth for India in Her Majesty's Indian troopship Euphrates ... The following are the names of the officers who have embarked in the same vessel:- ... ... Lieut. Phillips, 18th Foot; ... ..."

Quote
- The Military Campaign Medals & Award Rolls showed that Captn Phillips was in England on medical leave, as was his colleague Major Robert Adamson, when the Afghan War medals were awarded and his was sent on 23 Nov 1881.  Any ideas as to how I can find out when & how SP returned to England?  I see that a number of invalids are given for some of the returning troopships.  Was there a record of their names that I can see?

I can't find anything in the newspapers regarding Phillips returning to England c.1881 (it may be there, I just haven't found it on my searches). Major Adamson returned from India aboard the Serapis (ref Freeman's Journal 28 Feb 1881) which arrived in England 4 Mar 1881 (ref Portsmouth Evening News 4 Mar 1881). The Serapis had aboard 29 officers of various regiments (ref Reading Mercury 5 Mar 1881), but that's not to say Phillips was - or was not - one of them (officers aren't always named). I don't know if muster rolls (see guide here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/army-muster-1730-1898.htm)) or officers' service papers (WO 25 + 76 - see guide here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/britisharmyofficerbefore1913.htm) and here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/army-officers-1660-1913.htm)) might have more information?

Quote
- You said that Captn SP rejoined the 1st battalion in India in Feb 1882.  Where did you get this info?  Which troopship was he on and where did it sail from and to?

Freeman's Journal 23 Feb 1882: "Captain Phillips, of the Royal Irish Regiment, joined the 1st Battalion in India, from leave of absence in the early part of this month." That's a bit vague to be able to pinpoint a particular troopship.

Quote
- You said that SP wasn't named as involved in Egypt after the Anglo-Afghan war.  Where can I find the list of names of those involved?

I assumed Phillips was not in Egypt with the Royal Irish in Aug 1884 as he was appointed as Adjutant to the 4th North Tipperary Militia in Jan 1884 (ref London Gazette 11 Jan 1884); to back this up, the medal roll for Egypt/Sudan 1884 is on Ancestry (Africa > Sudan 1884-1886), and the 1st Bttn, Royal Irish roll does not include Phillips (Captains were Spyer, Forster, Guinness, Morgan, Baisragon and Francis).
 
Quote
- If he wasn't involved in this Nile Expedition and wasn't with the 1st battalion Royal Irish when it returned to Plymouth from Egypt aboard the Stirling Castle on 9 Sept 1895, can I find out when and how he got back to England earlier?  He was appointed Adjutant to the 4th battalion, Royal Irish on 1st Jan 1884 so maybe that means he was back from India by then (the 1st battalion didn't head from Meerut, India to Egypt until August 1884) - I don't know where the 4th battalion was at the beginning of 1884.  SP married in England in Sept 1885 shortly after the return of the 1st battalion.

I didn't see anything in the newspaper archive about Phillips returning to England (a more diligent search may reveal something). Again, maybe the muster rolls or officers service papers would help. Looking at the newspapers, the 4th Battalion Militia seem to have been in Ireland - eg. Clonmel, Curragh Camp in Aug 1883, Jul 1884 (from a very brief look I get the impression they were based at Clonmel and went to Curragh for annual training - this can be looked into more to confirm or not).

Hope this is some help, best -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Goldhain on Friday 28 February 14 22:18 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen, thank you - you've been a great help in filling my gaps.  You're obviously much better at searching than me!  I use the advance search on the bna website but still find it very random - sure I'll get better at it!

As to SP's return from India - found it!  Captain Samuel Phillips of the 1st battalion 18th Royal Irish Regiment left Bombay in the Serapis on the 13th November 1880 to visit his father in the county of Tipperary (Freeman's Journal 7 Dec 1880) and Serapis arrived at Portsmouth 11 Dec 1880 (Manchester Courier 13 Dec 1880).  Aren't the eureka moments rewarding?! Unfortunately, 1881 Irish census records were pulped during WWI due to the paper shortage so I can't check whether he was still in Ireland then but he doesn't seem to have been anywhere else.  He was on leave for a long time! 

Would like to make it to the National Archives one day ... but might take out a short sub for FindMyPast as think it has service records on it or maybe those are for soldiers rather than officers?

I think you're right about SP taking up his post with the 4th battalion and not serving in Egypt, especially if the 4th battalion was based in Clonmel, not far from his family home.

Thanks again for your help

Pippa 

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 04 March 14 11:53 GMT (UK)
Great find on Samuel's return to Blighty, Pippa - well done. Searching the BNA is an art unto itself, especially with the OCR text not always being what you'd expect.

Yes, for officers' papers you want The National Archives at Kew rather than FindMyPast - though the latter do have a few bits and bobs.

Best wishes - G
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: davidrossiter on Friday 28 March 14 18:35 GMT (UK)
Garen,

I have been completing some family research on the Poole's of the 66th regiment (James and Sydney). They are cousins of my direct Calway/Callaway line (you will notice their mother Callaway). I also serve as a Captain in the Mercian regiment so have a vested military interest in these two as well.

You have James on your site as being wounded at Maiwand, I am guessing that this has been worked out by the fact he is admitted to the hospital on 30.7.1880 due to a sword wound received in action. Also I note that you have put a note on saying that he is not recorded on the official casualty list (he also does not continue to say that he was wounded on his final medical record although where he was admitted to hospital it mentions the sword wound).

My thoughts here were perhaps he received the cut at Maiwand, having escaped the battlefield (a sword cut to the hand being painful enough to make fighting difficult) he fled to Kandahar but because he was walking wounded and perhaps could still use a weapon he is not registered as a casualty. A couple of days later the injury is infected and he remains in hospital for 21 days. He then recovered to fight at Kandahar. Was this your line of thought?

I am aware that 2 Companies were detached to garrison Kelat-i-Ghilzai (partaking in the last part of the Kabul-Kandahar march), but also some stayed back in Kandahar to provide a garrison for this and did not deploy to Maiwand (Lt Edwards who writes his diary is part of this force) do you know which Companies were detached to Kelat-i-Ghilzai and which one(s) remained in Kandahar, not fighting at Maiwand?
Is there any way of finding out what Company James was with at Maiwand?

What was the role of the 66th at the Battle of Kandahar as I am aware some people stayed behind to guard the Kandahar Citadel but I do not think these were awarded the clasp?, and the rest were part of the Field Reserve. Did this actually engage?

You also have Sydney down as being at Maiwand. Do you have evidence that he was there? I am guessing he wasn't detached to Kelat-i-Ghilzai as he did not have the Kabul-Kandahar Star, but could he have remained in the citadel with the defence detachment that the stragglers from the battle flee back to?

Lots of questions there so hope you don't mind me picking your brains! I was amazed when I found that these two (both from Somerset) were at Maiwand (or thereabouts). We learnt all about the battle at Sandhurst but I didn't for one minute think I would have relatives who actually fought there!

Look forward to hearing from you,

David

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 28 March 14 23:08 GMT (UK)
Hello David

Many thanks indeed for your message and thoughts on the Poole brothers!

You have James on your site as being wounded at Maiwand, I am guessing that this has been worked out by the fact he is admitted to the hospital on 30.7.1880 due to a sword wound received in action. Also I note that you have put a note on saying that he is not recorded on the official casualty list (he also does not continue to say that he was wounded on his final medical record although where he was admitted to hospital it mentions the sword wound).

My thoughts here were perhaps he received the cut at Maiwand, having escaped the battlefield (a sword cut to the hand being painful enough to make fighting difficult) he fled to Kandahar but because he was walking wounded and perhaps could still use a weapon he is not registered as a casualty. A couple of days later the injury is infected and he remains in hospital for 21 days. He then recovered to fight at Kandahar. Was this your line of thought?

I didn't really have a line of thought on James's wound - but your theory is certainly very possible.

Quote
I am aware that 2 Companies were detached to garrison Kelat-i-Ghilzai (partaking in the last part of the Kabul-Kandahar march), but also some stayed back in Kandahar to provide a garrison for this and did not deploy to Maiwand (Lt Edwards who writes his diary is part of this force) do you know which Companies were detached to Kelat-i-Ghilzai and which one(s) remained in Kandahar, not fighting at Maiwand?
Is there any way of finding out what Company James was with at Maiwand?

The companies at Kelat-i-Ghilzai were A Company and E Company, under the charge of Captain Mackinnion.

I don't think any entire companies stayed at Maiwand, I think it was a small detachment of men to look after the sick and for admin duties. B, C, D, F, G and H were all at Maiwand.

Sorry - I've no information on which company James Poole was in. I don't know if that's something you could find out from a request to the Wardrobe Museum (http://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/)?

Quote
What was the role of the 66th at the Battle of Kandahar as I am aware some people stayed behind to guard the Kandahar Citadel but I do not think these were awarded the clasp?, and the rest were part of the Field Reserve. Did this actually engage?

During the battle of Kandahar four companies (A, E, and possibly G and H) were used to occupy a line of pickets and hold a reinforcing position. Two companies were posted on Karez Hill and another placed between Karez Hill and Picquet Hill. They were probably under some fire, but not heavy, and there were no 66th casualties.

No, I don't believe those remaining in the Citadel received the Kandahar clasp.

Quote
You also have Sydney down as being at Maiwand. Do you have evidence that he was there? I am guessing he wasn't detached to Kelat-i-Ghilzai as he did not have the Kabul-Kandahar Star, but could he have remained in the citadel with the defence detachment that the stragglers from the battle flee back to?

I don't have any evidence (that I can now find) that Sydney was at Maiwand. I can't now recall why I made that decision on the database (he was entered back in 2006). Numbers alone make his presence at the battle a likelihood, but not a certainty - you're quite right.

---

You might be interested to know that the Poole brothers and the majority of their info were contributed to me by a great-grandson of Sydney Poole. As I say, it was back in 2006 so a bit of a while ago now!

Best for now -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: davidrossiter on Sunday 30 March 14 21:15 BST (UK)
Garen,

Thanks for your swift reply! Great knowledge!

I'm wondering if you may be able to answr a couple more questions:

1. Did Regiments in those days have a HQ Company or was the HQ just a small addition to A-H?
2. Was A Coy still a grenadier Company and H Coy a light Company at this point?
3. Yes like you I assumed due to numbers that Sydney was probably there. I can imagine that must have been pretty harrowing for them both knowing that somewhere on the battlefield a brother was in harm's way. Talking of numbers on this site http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_regiment/royal_berkshire_66th_regiment_maiwand_afghan_medal_casualty_roll_4.htm there seems to have been far more deaths at Maiwand than the official death numbers state (I know there is some difference in figures for casualties) but this site suggests 481, which I think would be a bit high?
4. Do you still have an email address for the descendants of Sydney? it would  be useful to link up.

Thanks for your help so far, a fascinating part of British History not much talked about now. I shall endeavour to find out which Company they were in from the Wardrobe Museum as suggested.

David
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Monday 31 March 14 16:55 BST (UK)
Hello David - no problem! On to your follow-ups ...

1. Did Regiments in those days have a HQ Company or was the HQ just a small addition to A-H?

Not my area of expertise, but the HQ is fairly consistently referred to as a company in my Afghan narratives and sources, so presume it was one in its own right.

2. Was A Coy still a grenadier Company and H Coy a light Company at this point?

Sorry, I don't know this!

3. ... Talking of numbers on this site (http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_regiment/royal_berkshire_66th_regiment_maiwand_afghan_medal_casualty_roll_4.htm) there seems to have been far more deaths at Maiwand than the official death numbers state (I know there is some difference in figures for casualties) but this site suggests 481, which I think would be a bit high?

481 sounds more like the number of the 66th present. When I was part of the research team for the Berkshire & Wiltshire Rifles Museum's book on Maiwand, the number of casualties was quite a point of discussion. I think we came up with 276 for the 66th Foot. Leigh Maxwell ('My God - Maiwand!') says 268. I'm sure I did an analysis of all the figures I could find once, but I can't locate it at the moment.

4. Do you still have an email address for the descendants of Sydney? it would  be useful to link up.

I will email the chap (bearing in mind his email goes back to 2006, so it may have changed since then) and see if he's agreeable to sharing contact details.

Edit: I've sent an email and will let you know. It hasn't bounced back, so that's possibly a good sign.

Edit 2: PM sent :-)

All best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: davidrossiter on Tuesday 01 April 14 16:46 BST (UK)
Garen,

Not a problem, it would seem then that there was a HQ Coy, in which case I imagine as you say it was elements of this company that stayed behind to deal with the defence of Kandahar (QMs dept etc).

Have done a bit of looking around I think that the British Army had begun to phase out grenadier and light companies, although many battalions still use this designation for Companies into the present day. I think in the 66th because the designation of Companies was A-H that the light and grenadier companies had by this point been removed.

I am not sure whether that site I quoted had perhaps just put anyone who died during the war or could not be accounted for afterwards as being killed at Maiwand.

Thanks for the email address!

Kind Regards,

David

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 01 April 14 21:30 BST (UK)
Not a problem, it would seem then that there was a HQ Coy, in which case I imagine as you say it was elements of this company that stayed behind to deal with the defence of Kandahar (QMs dept etc).

One of the maps I did for the Maiwand book has the front line of the 66th Companies (H, F, D, C and B, with G 1300 yards back with the baggage) and then just behind the front line the "headquarters group" - the two Colours (the Queen's with 2nd Lt. Olivey and the Regimental with 2nd Lt. Honywood), then behind them Lt-Col. Galbraith, Major Oliver, Lt. Rayner and Sgt Major Cuppage.

Thanks for the email address!

A pleasure!

- G
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: tjpatti on Sunday 07 September 14 11:07 BST (UK)
Hi Garen

I hope you can help me. My 3x great grandfather fought in the 2nd Afghan War with the 60th Rifles. From photographs, it would seem that he was awarded 4 medals, one with a clasp. I wonder if you could give me some information about him from the Medal Rolls? His name was George Needs Long.

Kind regards and thanks,

Teresa
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 09 September 14 23:47 BST (UK)
Hello Teresa

Looking at the Afghan war medal roll for the 60th Foot I only see one George Long - Private no. 1658, no clasps on his Afghan medal, no Kandahar Star, and discharged before Mar 1882 when the roll was gathered (he may have beed discharged before 1880, which might explain his lack of Ahmed Khel and Kandahar clasps).

Have you checked Find My Past (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/) to see if his service record has survived?

Any other info on him?

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: tjpatti on Wednesday 10 September 14 08:33 BST (UK)
Hello Garen,

Many thanks for your reply. I have this from George's obituary: "As a young man he joined the 60th Rifles and saw active service in India - gaining the Afghan Medal ... [he was] invalided from the Army."

He enlisted some time between 1861 and 1871 as he is absent from the latter census. He is on the 1881 census as a labourer. I also have a very grainy photograph which shows him wearing 4 medals, the one on the left appears to have a clasp; none of them are stars. The medal next to the aforementioned appears to be on a two-coloured ribbon, darkish background with a darker central stripe; the ribbon comes to a point above the medal.

I think he was a Private. Family legend has it that he was offered promotion but turned it down, preferring to stay in the ranks.

I have checked Find My Past; George's service record has not survived.

I am hoping to find out as much as I can about George's army service as I intend to upload him to your database.

Kind regards

Teresa
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Saturday 13 September 14 15:02 BST (UK)
Hello Teresa - that all sounds good. If you're able and willing to email me a hi-res scan of the photo we could probably identify all the medals and build up his military history a little. There may be a discharge entry at FindMyPast, but since they've updated their system it's not as easy to find particular military records as it used to be.

All best - G.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: tjpatti on Thursday 18 September 14 15:02 BST (UK)
Hi Garen

I'm willing to send you a scan of the photo, just not able to. I can't get the message to shift with the photo attached.

I think the George Long you found in the 60th Rifles must be my 2x great grandad but I will do a bit more research before uploading him to your database.

Thanks for your help.

Teresa
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: emre43 on Saturday 31 January 15 11:30 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen and all

My great great great uncle, Aaron Walter Joyce fought with the 67th Regiment during the Second Anglo-Afghan War.

According to his obituary he fought at both Kabul and Charasiab and he is seen wearing medals gained for his participation in both of these conflicts.

However, other than this obituary there is no other mention of him anywhere. I have searched your database and received no results. He went on to fight in the Anglo-Egyptian War of 1882 where he received the Khedive's Star.

Would you have further advice on where to search for more information?

Many thanks

Tom
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Monday 09 February 15 16:45 GMT (UK)
Hello Tom

Apologies for my delayed reply.

The Afghan medal roll for the 67th is not in great condition, but there is a W... Joyce, no.260, listed.

Following this up, there is a service record for a Walter Joyce, no.260, at FindMyPast - b. Andover, Hants. He served in Afghanistan and Egypt and his mother was Mary, resident in Andover. Is that him?

Best wishes - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: emre43 on Monday 09 February 15 17:42 GMT (UK)
Thanks Garen. His mother's name was Mary and she died in Andover, so I'm sure that is him. In his obituary he is known as Aaron Walter Joyce but every other source names him as just Walter.

May I also commend you on your Second-Afghan War research and your Maiwand Day blog. Amazing research and work has gone into both of them. I am partial to a tabletop wargame myself

Many thanks

Tom
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: emre43 on Monday 09 February 15 17:52 GMT (UK)
Oh and to be precise, Walter was born in Clatford, Hampshire, nearby Andover.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Monday 09 February 15 17:55 GMT (UK)
Thank you, Tom. Yes the service record says Clatford - so must be your chap!

Thanks for the nice words on the Afghan war site. The Maiwand Day blog isn't my work though, that's the effort of the amazing Ethan Reiff (I interviewed him here (http://www.garenewing.co.uk/angloafghanwar/articles/reiffinterview.php)).

Best - G
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: emre43 on Monday 09 February 15 18:17 GMT (UK)
Oh yes, I did read the interview but temporarily forgot.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: shelley28 on Sunday 08 March 15 17:28 GMT (UK)
Hi researchers.

I am new to this forum. This is my first posting.

I have an ancestor who served in the British Army (10th Hussars) in India at the time of the Second Afghan war. I have details of his service record and his immediate family at that time. I would be interested in any further details about his service in India and further information about the method and dates of his and his family’s return to Britain.

Don
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: shelley28 on Tuesday 28 April 15 11:20 BST (UK)
Here is a follow up to my first posting.

This is an extract from the National Archive record of my ancestor’s army service. It shows he was in India in the 10th Hussars at the time of the Second Afghan War. It seems strange that he was court martialled and then demoted immediately upon his transfer from the 21st Hussars to the 10th Hussars in 1874. I should like to find out what part, if any, he took in the Second Afghan War campaign and details of his (or his family’s) return journey to Britain.

Private (discharge rank) Henry Dunford, No. 1390, 10th Hussars

Event               Date

Home               02.02.1860 – 30.10.1860
India               31.10.1860 – 11.06.1881
Home               12.06.1881 – 21.06.1881

Enlisted            31.01.1860
Bengal Light Cavalry      02.02.1860
21st Hussars            01.05.1861
Saddler Sergeant         05.05.1865
Married (Maria Ogden aged 16)   13.09.1869
10th Hussars            30.04.1874 (volunteered 1873 to stay in India)
Court Martial            01.05.1874
Private            02.05.1874
Discharged (Canterbury depot)   12.07.1881

I do have further details of his children’s births (in India and UK).

Don
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Anil Srivastava on Sunday 10 May 15 19:03 BST (UK)
Dear Garen: The attachment refers to General Frederick Richard Maunsell, KCB, RE, who was formerly the Commandant of the Bengal Sappers during the events of 1857. He was Commander Engineers in 1878, during the Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80. I am Lt Col Anil Srivastava, Bengal Engineer Group (formerly King George V's Own Bengal Sappers and Miners, RIE).
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Craig66 on Saturday 16 May 15 17:43 BST (UK)
Does anybody know if Isaac Webster survived the attack in his tent mentioned in The Bugle on 1st Feb 1979 (discussed near the start of this forum)
My grandmother (surname Webster ) gave me a Koran when I was a child and inside it says that it was taken from one of the huts by Isaac Webster of the 51st. Isaac Webster was later attacked and wounded in his tent by a tribesman. I wondered if there was any way of finding out if he survived the attack reported in The Bugle on 1st Feb 1879?
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 19 May 15 13:10 BST (UK)
Hi researchers.

I am new to this forum. This is my first posting.

I have an ancestor who served in the British Army (10th Hussars) in India at the time of the Second Afghan war. I have details of his service record and his immediate family at that time. I would be interested in any further details about his service in India and further information about the method and dates of his and his family’s return to Britain.

Don

Hello Don - apologies for my delayed reply - I have not visited the forum in a little while (busy!) and I stopped getting email notices. Hopefully they're back on now.

I checked the medal roll for the 10th Hussars and did not see Henry Dunford listed - and a look at his service record on FindMyPast confirms that he was not in receipt of the Afghan medal, so we can confirm he didn't serve there, despite being with the 10th Hussars.

The 10th were in the first phase of the Afghan campaign, from Nov 1878 until Jun 1879. Henry's medical record shows that he arrived at Rawalpindi in Jan 1878 and had hospital admissions at Muree in Apr 1878 and Rawalpindi in Aug 1879 - so no definitive confirmation for whereabouts during the campaign.

The 10th Hussars Depot was at Rawalpindi throughout the war, and it may be that Henry, as a saddler, was kept there to look after the horses and see to fresh drafts of men before they went to the front - that's speculation, and I'm not an expert on such aspects.

Henry returned to the UK in 1881 ("on termination of his second period of limited engagement"), the 10th Hussars as a regiment returned in early 1884.

All best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 19 May 15 13:13 BST (UK)
Dear Garen: The attachment refers to General Frederick Richard Maunsell, KCB, RE, who was formerly the Commandant of the Bengal Sappers during the events of 1857. He was Commander Engineers in 1878, during the Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80. I am Lt Col Anil Srivastava, Bengal Engineer Group (formerly King George V's Own Bengal Sappers and Miners, RIE).

Thank you, Anil. I don't think your PDF attachment has come through properly, but I am aware of Gen. Maunsell - he will be added to my database at some point! Regards - Garen.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: peterwimsey on Tuesday 11 August 15 11:43 BST (UK)
Hello - may I ask for help ?

I was disappointed searching on a 2nd Anglo-Afghan website not to find the name of an ancestor of mine - Humphrey Martin Twynam 1858-1913, who I believe took part in actions at Ahmed Khel and Urzoo (spellings ?) and was apparently recommended for, but not awarded, the VC.

Might you have any information about this person in relation to this war please ?
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 11 August 15 12:44 BST (UK)
Hello Peter

H M Twynam was a second-lieutenant in the 59th Foot. He joined the regiment in March 1879 when they were already at Kandahar and, yes, was present at the battles of Ahmed Khel and Arzu.

At Ahmed Khel he was noted by his General (Stewart) for gallantry in doing his best to save the life of one of his men - it does indeed seem that a recommendation was made for the VC. (I'm not sure yet who the man was, or if his life was saved.)

Major Twynam was involved in a bit of scandal in 1903! Perhaps you know ..?

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: peterwimsey on Tuesday 11 August 15 12:58 BST (UK)
Many thanks for that Garen - no I don't know anything about a scandal.  1903 was the year he married.  Anything at all you can tell me about Humphrey will be most appreciated.  I believe he distinguished himself in the Boer War too.

Many thanks
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 11 August 15 13:11 BST (UK)
Ah - did he marry one Naomi Erbsloh?

It seems she was the wife of Mr Earnest Charles Erbsloh, and while he was away in Canada Mrs Erbsloh and Major Twynam had a bit of a fling. She left her husband and joined the Major in South Africa in 1900, and in 1903 the Erbslohs divorce was decreed.

A bit of gossip from the newspapers!
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: peterwimsey on Tuesday 11 August 15 13:21 BST (UK)
oh thanks for that - I have him marrying Naomi Seaward - I suppose if the divorce had gone through she would have reverted to her maiden name, something for me to investigate.  They weren't married for very long.  Naomi died in 1911 aged 42 and Humphrey died in 1913 aged 55.

Thanks again.

later update - a bit of confusion now about Naomi's age.  On the 1911 census Humphrey says she is 42.  At her death later that year she is said to be 49 - and now I find that she married Earnest Erbsloh in 1877 when she would have been only 15 (if born 1862).

further update - I now think she was born in 1859 according to the 1891 census, so the 1911 census is 10 years adrift

none of which has anything to do with the 2nd Anglo-Afghan War !!
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Saturday 15 August 15 12:10 BST (UK)
Basically, ages, places of birth, relationships and names should all be taken with a pinch of salt as far as census details are concerned. I've got Romany Gypsies in my tree - you rarely get two lots of census data in agreement! All part of the 'fun' :-)
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: shelley28 on Saturday 05 September 15 20:44 BST (UK)
Garen,
Thanks for your response re Henry Dunford. Apologies for the delay in replying.
Your information on his medical record ties up with the following I have regarding his children
Event      Person      Date      Place      Source

Married   Maria Ogden   13.09.1869   Umballa   Certificate
Birth      1st child      14.06.1870   Lucknow   Certificate
Birth      2nd child    14.12.1871   Lucknow   IGI
Birth      3rd child      26.11.1873   Lucknow   Certificate
Baptism   4th child      16.02.1876         IGI
Baptism   5th child      01.07.1877         IGI
Birth      6th child      1878      Murree      Family Records Index
Death      5th child      01.09.1879   Rawalpindi   Familysearch.org
Death      4th child      02.09.1879   Rawalpindi   Familysearch.org
Death      6th child      28.10.1879   Rawalpindi   Familysearch.org
Birth      7th child      1881      Lucknow   Family Records Index
Birth      8th child      04.01.1883   Marylebone   Certificate
Birth      9th child      18.08.1884   Edmonton   Certificate
Birth      10th child   28.04.1888   Edmonton   Certificate
Birth      11th child   28.05.1890   Edmonton   Certificate

It looks as if he returned to Britain in the middle of 1881 and that the rest of his family could have returned any time between early 1881 and early 1882 (I have not found them in the 1881 census).
I shall have to try the BNA on HMT departures/arrivals to narrow down possible return dates.
Regards Don
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: caterpillar20 on Saturday 02 January 16 18:18 GMT (UK)
Dear Garen,

I came across your website as I've just found out that my great grandfather was at the Siege of Kandahar (and took part in the Sortie on Deh Khoja) and I was taking my first steps in finding out more.

First up my ancestor doesn't seem to be in your database, so it would be good to add him in – how do I go about that?

Second, I was hoping you might have some tips on what resources I should be looking at for more information. The military records I have say that he was in "49 Brigade" from 28 Feb 1878 until 21 Jan 1884 (serving both in East India and Afghanistan) before moving to the 2nd Battalion Royal Fusiliers for a few months until he could become a reserve. His medal record gives the regiment as 2nd Battalion, 7th Foot, Royal Fusiliers, though again, I assume this relates to the 1884 assignation. It adds he was awarded the Afghan War Medal with Kandahar clasp (private Cornelius Sullivan 1623). Any tips on how I might unpick 49 Brigade? And what should be my next step in digging further into his military history? Any clues woud be greatly appreciated. Many thanks, Colin.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: km1971 on Tuesday 05 January 16 09:18 GMT (UK)
Hi Colin

49th Infantry Brigade Depot was created in 1873. They were formed to give the infantry their first permanent depots. After initial training recruits were allocated to one of the two battalions making up the Brigade Depot.

The 1st to 25th Regiments of Foot already had two battalions so they were put in the same brigade. 49th Brigade Depot was in Hounslow. Regiments of Foot of 26th and above were paired to form other Brigade Depots.

They lasted until July 1881 when a few amendments were made to the pairings, but otherwise the term Infantry Brigade Depot disappeared and most regiments were given new names instead of using the precedence number.

His service record will probably only say he served in 'India' or 'Home'. To get a breakdown of where exactly he served month by month you will have to research the muster books in the National Archives. They are not online.

If he was married the musters of this period will give his wife's name and the ages of any children in years and months. Also, knowing the actual town/fort you can then look up nearby church records. It all depends on how thorough you want to be.

From the dates it looks as if he enlisted for 12 years - split six years in uniform, followed by six years in the First Class Army Reserve. Seven plus five later become the norm. Reservists served two weeks a year in exchange for half pay. Reservists very rarely record the fact on census and BMDs. But they remained part of the Regular army until they had completed their 12 years enlistment.

Ken
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: caterpillar20 on Wednesday 06 January 16 08:38 GMT (UK)
Hi Ken,

Many thanks for the info, that's really helpful. So if I went to the National Archives, would I need to look at the 2nd Foot muster rolls, do you think, or will I need to plough through all of them? Also, are there records for the 2 weeks service undertaken as a reservist, do you know?

I'm quite lucky, I think, in that the service records I have list his next of kin (though locate them in Closter Street, Limehouse, which I haven't yet found any record of), but more importantly also include hospital admissions (mostly for "ague"), and so lists in more details where he was stationed. Unfortunately, it's quite hard to decipher what the listing says (there's a screen shot attached  in case anyone can see easily). So far, I've deduced:
Woolwich
??
??
Ahmednuggur (?)
Field Service Afghanistan
Kandahar
Bellary
??
Bellary

You mentioned church records near the forts, what sort of thing might those tell me?

Apologies for all the questions, I'm relatively green on the nuances of military service history, so any hope is greatly appreciated!

Thanks again,

Colin
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 07 January 16 12:57 GMT (UK)
Hello Colin

Ken has already given you a good answer on the fact that the 7th Foot was within the 49th Brigade, and they became the 2nd Royal Fusiliers after 1881.

Would be happy to add him to the database, just email me some of his details - birth, death, parents, wife, children, occupation, etc, would be great :-)

I think, as Ken says, the Muster Rolls for the 7th Foot are a good next step. Also see if you can find a good history on the 7th Fusiliers that includes your dates, for some wider context.

In regard to his hospital admissions - your second set of question marks is ‘HMS Jumna’, so was likely en-route to India. The one between the two Bellary entries looks like Wellington.

Best wishes -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: cerchier on Thursday 04 February 16 18:47 GMT (UK)
HI Collin,
  I am searching for some info into medals that belong to my wife's family.  They pertain to 5 individuals, one of which was in Afghanistan in the 1878-80. The medal in question has an ALI MUSJID clasp.  The edge has number, rank, name and regiment inscribed on it. They are 1503, Gunr, R. McDowell, 13/9 R.A..  There is also another medal of his that is for around that area, it has two clasps, top says BURMA 1885-7 and bottom say JOWAKI 1877-8, this one has his name spelled as McDowall.  If you could help with identifying him, such as DOB, parents and any other family related info I would be very gratefull, or point me in the correct direction.
  There are other medals and they all are related to the Royal Artillery.  One is a long service medal to the Arsenal in Woolwich.
   Again thank you in advance.

Chip
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 05 February 16 18:15 GMT (UK)
Hello Chip

(This is Garen, by the way, not Colin :-))

Looking at the medal roll for 13/9 RA in Afghanistan I see your man's full name is Robert McDowall. It gives no extra info other than to confirm the Ali Musjid clasp.

The next thing to do would be to visit Find My Past and see if there's a service record for him, and if so, that might give some next of kin information.

If you know where the family originated, then looking at the census returns for a Robert McDowall might be fruitful - he may even be in the RA and stationed in the UK during a census year, if you're lucky.

Is the artillery unit on the clasps for Jowaki and Burma (this will be the India 1849-95 medal) the same as for Afghanistan? 13/9 were in Jowaki, but he may have been in a different battery for Burma.

All best -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: cerchier on Friday 05 February 16 21:41 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen,
   sorry about the mix up with the names.  I'm new at this site and just used the name I last saw, anyway sorry.
    The Burma medal has the same info on it, so my guess is he is in the RA.  The thing is I don't know where he is from or how he is related to all the others, in regards to the medals, other than they have the same family name.  One I know is the father to my wife's grandfather.  He is the one in the Royal Arsenal in Woolwich, George McDowell.  Long story but he was born in Canada in 1851 and one of his sons, John Benjamin McDowell has medals from WW1.  I know I'm getting off subject with your area, but thank you for your help.  I'll try Find My Past and see hat happens.

Thanks again

Chip
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 05 February 16 22:05 GMT (UK)
My initial guess would be that Robert might be a brother to George - it's the right time frame (1850s) to be born to be a soldier in the Second Afghan War.

Anyway - good luck! If I can be any more help, just let me know.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: cerchier on Saturday 06 February 16 13:17 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen,
    You have been a great help, so thank you.  You may be on to something about Robert being George's brother, close to the same age.
    What I was wondering about is how do I check the regimental numbers that are on the medals and would the records hold family information? ie. Mother, Father, place of birth and so on.
     Again thanks for your help, it has gotten me going again.
Cheers
Chip
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: CAMPaske on Monday 08 February 16 19:59 GMT (UK)
A relative, not an ancestor since he died aged only 23, Charles Alfred Montanaro Paske died in Kabul during the Second Afghan War. This is to add to the memory of a young man who died long ago far from home.

He was born 20th June 1855 and gazetted in 1874. In 1878 he joined No.2 Derajat Mountain Battery, Punjab Frontier Force. On 19th December he was shot in the side at Kabul, the bullet lodging in his spine. He died the next day. He had invented a time-fuze and a Pioneer's saddle, called the 'Montanaro Pattern'.

[Source: web.ukonline.co.uk/ewh.bryan/mont-2.html]



If anyone can add to this information it would be very welcome
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 09 February 16 12:38 GMT (UK)
Hello CAMPaske

I have a portrait of Lt. Mantanaro on my website, it's from The Graphic, March 1880.:

http://www.garenewing.co.uk/angloafghanwar/biography/portraits.php

By the way, Charles Alfred Montanaro Paske (1884-1954) was the nephew of Charles Alfred Montanaro (1855-1879) - Montanaro's sister, Amy, married Col. Henry Gresham Paske in 1876.

All best - Garen

Quote
A relative, not an ancestor since he died aged only 23, Charles Alfred Montanaro Paske died in Kabul during the Second Afghan War. This is to add to the memory of a young man who died long ago far from home.

He was born 20th June 1855 and gazetted in 1874. In 1878 he joined No.2 Derajat Mountain Battery, Punjab Frontier Force. On 19th December he was shot in the side at Kabul, the bullet lodging in his spine. He died the next day. He had invented a time-fuze and a Pioneer's saddle, called the 'Montanaro Pattern'.

[Source: web.ukonline.co.uk/ewh.bryan/mont-2.html]

If anyone can add to this information it would be very welcome
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: kevinPW on Monday 07 March 16 14:45 GMT (UK)
Hi,

I'm researching George Henry Somerset (aka Lord Raglan) who was mention in despatches during the march to Kandahar. He seems a pretty elusive fella to research and I wonder if anyone has any interesting information on him ? He was the grandson of Lord Raglan of Balaclava fame and went on to be the Governor of the Isle of Man during WW1, but my biggest battle is piecing together his military career/involvement. If anybody can help , I'd be most appreciative.

Thanks for reading...
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Tuesday 08 March 16 00:35 GMT (UK)
Hello Kevin

I don't think I can add much in great detail ... he entered the army in 1875 after passing out at Sandhurst and went into the Grenadier Guards. He became lieutenant in Oct 1877 and served in the second phase of the Afghan war as Orderly Officer to Major-General Robert Phayre, mentioned in despatches, as you say, for his service on Phayre's march to Kandahar (not Roberts' more famous march from Kabul to Kandahar, but the Quetta-Kandahar route). At some point (c.1883) he was Aide-de-Camp to the Governor of Bombay. He became Captain in 1886 and transferred to the Monmouthshire Royal Engineers (Special Reserve), of which he would later (early 1900s?) become Hon. Colonel. He was Under-Secretary for War 1900-02.

Hope there might be something new there!

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: kevinPW on Friday 11 March 16 07:39 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen

Thank you for adding these notes. These facts are relatively common knowledge amongst students but it does show that there is a dearth of information on the man over and above what you've identified.
My interest is focused upon the way men such as Raglan went from the military into a political career and what equipped them to do so.
There's abundant evidence to show it was usually a less than startling idea but seemed a right of passage for many.
I'm appreciative of your putting the time in to provide an answer...

Cheers !
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: domburd66 on Tuesday 19 April 16 22:45 BST (UK)
Hello all

I am new to this site so please forgive me if anything I am inquiring about have already been discussed.

I have long been a collector of Indian postal history and recently I began a sub-collection of military material bearing the crests of regiments both 'anglo' and native regiments serving before Indian independence.

One letter recently came into my possession from an auction of other disparate items which bears the embossed seal of the 1st Bombay Grenadiers. It was written by one (Colonel) C. Griffith to his wife and was begun on 18th Feb 1880. I have only transcribed the first half dozen pages or so (of a total of 25) but so far covers the story of a march to Quetta with Lt. Frank Whittuck, meeting along the way members of Jacob's Rifles and one Colonel Mainwaring. A few place names are mentioned in the course of the letter, namely 'Dhursht' and 'Sie-i-Ab' (?) which I am havng difficulty finding on maps of the campaign. Any help with this would be appreciated.

Mostly, though, I am looking for any biographical information regarding Griffith including his life before and after the campaign - if he survived it.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

Regards

Dominic
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 20 April 16 10:11 BST (UK)
Hello Dominic

That sounds really fascinating.

Col. Griffith is Charles Matthew Griffith (1834-1913) - he saw action in the Afghan war at Ghirisk, Maiwand and Kandahar.

Frank Whittuck I know because I researched him for my database. Here's his entry (http://www.garenewing.co.uk/angloafghanwar/database/permalink.php?pid=172).

Mainwaring is also a name I recognise from my researches into the southern Afghan theatre, and he is most likely Col. William George Mainwaring (1823-1905) of the 30th BoNI.

I won't tackle the place names just yet as it would help to know which places are mentioned before and after to try and help locate the rough area.

The southern theatre of the Afghan war is something I'm quite interested in and have been collecting resources on for a while, so do feel free to email me (http://www.garenewing.co.uk/rainboworchid/readerscorner/contact.php) if you think I can help further.

All best -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Grumpystill on Sunday 21 August 16 09:32 BST (UK)
I have a Second Afghan War Medal awarded to my Great Grandfather Maj. Gen. Clennell Collingwood RA.  I would like to know the regiment in which he served and what part he played in the campaign
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Sunday 21 August 16 10:16 BST (UK)
Hello Grumpystill

Major-General Collingwood (1836-1903) commanded 5th Battery 11th (5/11) Royal Artillery from the commencement of the war (Nov 1878) until October 1879, when he was succeeded by Captain G M B Hornsby.

In that time the Battery was in Kandahar from Jan 1879, and then back to Quetta in July. They suffered a lot from the intense heat, losing several men and animals to the extremes and also to a bout of cholera (the Quetta-Kandahar route was a punishing one).

I've only had a quick look, so I'm not sure why he left the Battery at Quetta. He entered the Artillery in 1854 and seems to have retired c.1886.

I'll get him added to my database.

Many thanks - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Grumpystill on Sunday 21 August 16 11:05 BST (UK)
Hi Garen,

Many thanks for the information.  As well as serving in the army Clennell had five sons and three daughters.  All the sons, including my grandfather (the eldest) served in the first world war.  The youngest was killed in 1918.

kind regards

Grumpystill
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Downieabz on Thursday 01 September 16 19:58 BST (UK)
Hello fellow researchers,

I'm new to this forum and just wanted to register my interest in this campaign (Afghanistan 1878 - 1880). I am happy to help with questions anyone might have, and I am also interested in hearing from the descendants of people who were involved in or around the war.

I have a lot of information at hand but am always interested in more. Queries are welcome, as I like to help out if I can, and it also forces me to look into different aspects of the campaign and I learn more for myself each time.

I have a website, which will be going through some bigger updates over the next few months, at http://www.angloafghanwar.info

All the best -
Garen.

James Downie, son of George Downie and Catherine Fraser, born Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire 26 September 1855, died Mar 1928 Campsie, Stirlingshire, probably served in the 72nd Regiment of Foot in the Battle of Kandahar, according to his obituary:

"Kirkintilloch Gazette Friday 20 April 1928 page 2
The mystery of the disappearance of James Downie, farm servant, Inchbreck, who was last seen on March 12, was solved by the finding of his body on Wednesday afternoon in the Kelvin at Torrance. Downie, who was 72, was for 12 years in the Seaforth Highlanders and took part in Roberts’ march to Kandahar. "

I reached this forum as the first step in researching his military history and would appreciate any help anyone can give me concerning James's part in the second Anglo-Afghan War. He was back in Kirkintilloch in the 1891 Census, working as a carter with his father, so could not have been 12 years in the Seaforths as they were formed only in 1881, However he would probably have transferred to the Seaforths on their formation and probably joined the 72nd before they went to Afghanistan in 1878. I presume that he was no more than a private.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: gortonboy on Saturday 03 September 16 20:57 BST (UK)
his service record is on Findmypast


First name(s)   James
Last name   Downie
Birth year   1858
Birth parish   Kirkintulloch
Birth town   Kirkintulloch
Birth county   Dunbartonshire
Birth country   Scotland
Service number   ?
Regiment   -
Year   1878
Attestation date   18 Feb 1878
Attestation age years   20
Attestation service number   ?
Attestation corps   57th Bde
Document type   Attestation
Series   WO 97 - Chelsea Pensioners British Army service records 1760-1913
Archive   The National Archives
Archive reference   WO 97
Box   2693
Box record number   31
Record set   British Army Service Records
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Monday 05 September 16 10:53 BST (UK)
Hello Downieabz

The 72nd and the 1st Battalion Seaforth Highlanders are the same regiment - it was not much more than a reorganisation and a name change in 1881, so anyone in the 72nd Highlanders in that year would have found themselves in the Seaforths after the change (the Childers Reforms). The 78th became the 2nd Battalion Seaforth Highlanders.

As you can also see from gortonboy's reply, James Downie was in the '57th Brigade' - which can also indicate the Seaforths. Definitely get over to findmypast.co.uk and have a look at his service record.

Looks like he remained a Private in his service from 1878 to 1890 - enlisting with the 79th Foot (Cameron Highlanders) and transferring to the 78th before he served in Afghanistan and Egypt.

That means he was not on Roberts' march from Kabul to Kandahar and did not receive the Kandahar Star. With the 78th he would have come into Kandahar via the Quetta route under General Phayre and was garrisoned at the city from November 1880 until the evacuation in April 1881.

All best - Garen

James Downie, son of George Downie and Catherine Fraser, born Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire 26 September 1855, died Mar 1928 Campsie, Stirlingshire, probably served in the 72nd Regiment of Foot in the Battle of Kandahar, according to his obituary:

"Kirkintilloch Gazette Friday 20 April 1928 page 2
The mystery of the disappearance of James Downie, farm servant, Inchbreck, who was last seen on March 12, was solved by the finding of his body on Wednesday afternoon in the Kelvin at Torrance. Downie, who was 72, was for 12 years in the Seaforth Highlanders and took part in Roberts’ march to Kandahar. "

I reached this forum as the first step in researching his military history and would appreciate any help anyone can give me concerning James's part in the second Anglo-Afghan War. He was back in Kirkintilloch in the 1891 Census, working as a carter with his father, so could not have been 12 years in the Seaforths as they were formed only in 1881, However he would probably have transferred to the Seaforths on their formation and probably joined the 72nd before they went to Afghanistan in 1878. I presume that he was no more than a private.

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: RAJA BABAR on Tuesday 11 October 16 14:55 BST (UK)
Hello Garen,
My great great grandfather also participated in Afghan War (Ahmad Khel). His name Risaldar Major Nadir Ali Khan, 18th Bengal Lancers. Can i know any tip to proceed
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: RAJA BABAR on Thursday 13 October 16 08:54 BST (UK)
Hello Garen,

Can you please give information of my great grandfather, Risaldar Major Nadir Ali Khan, 18th Bengal Lancers, who participated in Battle of Ahmed Khel and recieved medal

Regards,
Babar
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: RAJA BABAR on Thursday 13 October 16 08:56 BST (UK)
Can you please give information of my great grandfather, Risaldar Major Nadir Ali Khan, 18th Bengal Lancers, who participated in Battle of Ahmed Khel and recieved medal

Regards,
Babar
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Monday 17 October 16 11:15 BST (UK)
Hello Babar

Sorry for my late reply.

I can't tell you anything about your g-grandfather as an individual (the only thing I can check is the casualty roll and the London Gazette, and he's not in either), but I can offer a little about the role of the 18th Bengal Cavalry in the Afghan war.

They were brought in from Umballa to Peshawar in Sept 1879 for the second campaign, with one squadron remaining at Kohat and the other two riding into the Kuram Valley in Jan 1880. Various smaller detachments saw action in the Dec 1879 Zaimukht expedition at Zawa, a skirmish against a body of Kabul Khel Waziris in May 1880 at Thal, and they also participated in the Waziri Expeditionary Force, under General J. J. Gordon, in March and April 1881. They were back in India (Naushahra) at the end of May 1881.

With that regimental history I'm surprised he was at Ahmed Khel (though it wouldn't be impossible, of course, if he was temporarily attached). The 19th Bengal Lancers were at Ahmed Khel. Do you have your g-grandfather's medal?

All best - Garen

Can you please give information of my great grandfather, Risaldar Major Nadir Ali Khan, 18th Bengal Lancers, who participated in Battle of Ahmed Khel and recieved medal

Regards,
Babar
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: RAJA BABAR on Monday 17 October 16 11:41 BST (UK)
Dear Garen,

Thanks for the reply. The following is an extract from soldiersofthequeen.com ,

e: "A veteran of the Second Anglo-Afghan War (1878-1880) Rasildar Major (Major) Nadir Ali Khan was serving with the 18th Bengal Lancers (Fane's Horse) when he attended to
Queen's Jubilee in 1887. The 19th took part in the Battle of Ahmad Khel in 1880 during the Second Anglo-Afghan War. Having entered service in 1858, Ali Khan wears the 1887
Queen's Jubilee Medal and the Second Afghan War Medal.

According to Frontier and Overseas Expeditions from India (1908, Intelligence Branch, Division of the Chief of Staff. Army Headquarters, India) on 22 November, 1879 , Ali Khan led
a small force (thirty-six lances) against and assemble force of Zaimukhtsm,  Mumuzais and Alisherzais tribesmen (about one thousand strong) near the Chapri Post in the Kurram
Valley. The enemy were driven off leaving thirteen dead and many wounded on the field. Ali Khan's little force suffered three sowars wounded"
Moreover a photo is also there on the site. i can also supply you with references from books and dailies in which the officer has been discussed in detail regarding Afghan war.

Best Regards,
Raja Babar
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Barrie Plasom on Thursday 19 January 17 13:23 GMT (UK)
HI all,, am new to this,  but during my Family tree research I found a relative that died at Kandahar 1879 oct 10th I think,,,,not sure what regiment he was in ,, Name is Charles Placeham,, born 1851 st george hanover square , ? I have his enlistment  details but cant find any further info,,service number was 1809  ( 1871 )   2nd battalian Northumberland regt of foot,  ( private 5th fusiliers ) The archives record which I cant  trace is WO12/2374,, I would just like to know in detail where he fell,, and if he was actually awarded this Kandahar medal or some such ?  ,,,,, if he wasnt  can this still be claimed by a decendant,,  ( wouldnt be me as Charles was from another branch of my family ) any help would be appreciated,, thanks,,, barrie
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 19 January 17 15:18 GMT (UK)
Hello Barrie

I can't find a Charles Placeham on the Afghan War medal roll for the 5th Foot, but there is a Gunner in C/3 R.A. (C Battery 3rd Brigade, Royal Artillery) - no. 5875. As I see your Charles is in the 5th Foot on the 1871 census, and assuming this is the same person, then it would seem he moved from the infantry to the artillery at some point.

The medal roll for C/3 gives this Charles a different death date and location, however - 11 August 1880 at Nowshera. C/3 did return to India in Aug 1880. Can I ask where your death details for Charles come from? It would be good to know if these are two different Charles, or the same man.

Gunner Charles Placeham would have been entitled to the Afghan War medal with no clasps, though I see from WO/100/109 - medals returned to Woolwich - his went unclaimed.

Best - Garen

HI all,, am new to this,  but during my Family tree research I found a relative that died at Kandahar 1879 oct 10th I think,,,,not sure what regiment he was in ,, Name is Charles Placeham,, born 1851 st george hanover square , ? I have his enlistment  details but cant find any further info,,service number was 1809  ( 1871 )   2nd battalian Northumberland regt of foot,  ( private 5th fusiliers ) The archives record which I cant  trace is WO12/2374,, I would just like to know in detail where he fell,, and if he was actually awarded this Kandahar medal or some such ?  ,,,,, if he wasnt  can this still be claimed by a decendant,,  ( wouldnt be me as Charles was from another branch of my family ) any help would be appreciated,, thanks,,, barrie
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Barrie Plasom on Monday 23 January 17 00:05 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the Info Garen,,, Information I got regarding Death Of Charles Placeham was fron one of the family history sites, ( ancestry.com  ,, there Military site, which I cant access for some reason  ),,,, This would be the Only Charles Placeham,, very few with that surname  or any variation at all ( I was the last ),,,, On his Birth certificate his  Name  was Placsom ( 1852 ).,, this conflict makes for very interesting reading as previously I was studying the American Civil War,,,I will try to find out more regarding the information I  found and come back to you,,, Thanks once again  Appreciated,, Barrie


Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Barrie Plasom on Monday 23 January 17 00:08 GMT (UK)
Sorry Forgot,,  Is this medal for Charles Placeham still available  to be  claimed by his decendants , (which would not be me ),, Barrie
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Monday 23 January 17 09:53 GMT (UK)
Hello Barrie

I see there's a few entries for Charles Placeham on that new Ancestry Fold3 site - I'm not a member but it looks like you can get a free 7-day trial and perhaps get what you need.

Two of the entries are Court Martial Register entries from 1872 and 1873, perhaps the event that moved him from the infantry to the artillery. Another seems to be a document dated 1882 in the index - so either it's a post-mortem bit of data or a different chap, but the regiment is C/3 R.A. - and the medal roll claims he died in Aug 1880.

I'm no expert on the medals issue, but I don't think a descendant today can apply for medals from WWI and before, largely because you have to be next of kin, but also I just don't think they make them available with that much time passed.

Edit: https://www.gov.uk/apply-medal-or-veterans-badge/apply-for-a-medal
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Barrie Plasom on Monday 23 January 17 18:07 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen,, thanks again I will check  ancestry out  and come back to you with added information,,  regards, barrie
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: pjg6666 on Wednesday 12 July 17 21:22 BST (UK)
Hello  I have a good military photo possibly Afgan War Is it possible to post a photo The name of the Soldier is  W McCombie and there is some writing on the back.  One part says CAN BOEL . The Lapel Collar Badges have Bugles on so could be a Bandsman. Also wearing medal on photo (Queen Victoria)  I don't know when this person was born but he is the Great Great Grandfather of a lady who is now in her 80s. Any help much appreciated Pam
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 12 July 17 21:34 BST (UK)
Hello Pam - yes, please do post the photo, I think it would be best to see it directly.

As soon as I read "BOEL" I thought 'Boer', but let's see!

Best -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: pjg6666 on Thursday 13 July 17 08:20 BST (UK)
Hello Garen  The picture of W McCombie wont send as attachment as it says its too large  I could send it from my phone to a mobile or e mail??  Thanks Pam
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 13 July 17 09:21 BST (UK)
Hello Pam

Yes, that would be fine - send it along to me at garen[at]angloafghanwar.info (change the [at] for @)

Thank you -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 13 July 17 15:46 BST (UK)
Hello  I have a good military photo possibly Afgan War Is it possible to post a photo The name of the Soldier is  W McCombie and there is some writing on the back.  One part says CAN BOEL . The Lapel Collar Badges have Bugles on so could be a Bandsman. Also wearing medal on photo (Queen Victoria)  I don't know when this person was born but he is the Great Great Grandfather of a lady who is now in her 80s. Any help much appreciated Pam

Hello Pam

Thank you for sending the photos through. I am posting them and answering here in case others have any insights.

Are you certain that the relative is 'W McCombie', or is that just from the back of the picture? I ask because the only McCombie I can find on the Afghan War medal roll (and this may not be exhaustive) is a J McCombie. I wonder if on the back of the picture it actually says 'Mr McCombie'. Looking at other words, the M and the W of that handwriting are very similar, but the two dots under what appears to be an 'R' might point to 'Mr'.

As for 'Boel' I wonder if that says 'Back' and might be part of the instructions for mounting the image? Other words I can see include 'oval' (scribbled out) and 'wide'.

Anyway, that's definitely an Afghan medal on the front.

J McCombie was in the 85th Foot (later the King's Shropshire Light Infantry) and their badge was a stringed bugle. As it happens, according the medal roll, McCombie was also a bugler! His service no. was a pleasing '1234'.

His service record is available on Find My Past, showing he was John McCombie, born in Acton about 1850, enlisted in Dublin in 1867, was in India from 1868 to 1881 (including Afghan service) and also served in Natal, and was discharged in 1888 at Kilkenny. His mother was Maria McCombie, living in ChristChurch, Hants. There's lots more info on his military history there.

What do you think, could this be your man?

Best -
Garen

Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: pjg6666 on Thursday 13 July 17 16:03 BST (UK)
Thank you very much.  I did think at first it was Mr. McCombie,   just a couple of family looked and thought it might be  W.  so I think this could be him. I will check out his details from what you have given me. Many thanks again Pam
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 13 July 17 23:35 BST (UK)
Just looking a little more into this John McCombie for the Afghan War database ... after he was discharged in 1888 he worked at the Woolwich Arsenal as a labourer into the 1900s. The census returns 1891-1911 all show him as single. He died in 1922. Not sure if there was a late marriage and children (or an earlier child out of wedlock) - vital info to see if he is someone's gg-grandfather!

His parents: Robert Burns McCombie and Maria Elsam.

Best - Garen.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: pjg6666 on Friday 14 July 17 17:35 BST (UK)
Many thanks for all your help on John McCombie. Sorry for late reply (was on Night shift at work last night) I will follow up everything. Kind Regards Pam
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: nick1205 on Wednesday 09 August 17 03:00 BST (UK)
Hi,
He was my great great Grandfather on my Mothers side. He retired a Major General in the Indian Staff Corps and finished his days at 'Maesgwyn' Sleepers Hill, Winchester.
If you can locate that place I would be pleased to hear about your success.
Regards
Nick Smith-Saville
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: pjg6666 on Wednesday 09 August 17 08:42 BST (UK)
Hello.  Is the John McCombie that died in 1922 Woolwich London the same person referred to in your post.  I am trying to link him to a family where a lady in her 80s thought he was her Great Great Grandfather., but he does not appeared to have married?  Thanks Pam
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 09 August 17 09:18 BST (UK)
Hello Nick

I think you must be replying to a post much earlier in the thread (we're up to 30+ pages now!), so if you can provide a few more details, that would be great.

(As a tip - if replying to an older post, you can use the Quote button to show what you're referring to.)

All best - Garen

Hi,
He was my great great Grandfather on my Mothers side. He retired a Major General in the Indian Staff Corps and finished his days at 'Maesgwyn' Sleepers Hill, Winchester.
If you can locate that place I would be pleased to hear about your success.
Regards
Nick Smith-Saville
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Warwick1951 on Tuesday 31 October 17 19:11 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen
My Great Grandfather served in the 59th regiment of Foot and was in Afghanistan from 13 Dec 1878 to the 26 Nov 1880. His name was Charles Horton. He fought in the battle of Ahmed Khel and was awarded an Afghan War medal.I'm not sure if he got the medal for fighting in the war or if it was for some specific action.I have a photo which may have been when he was a lot younger but I"m struggling to identify the uniform he"s wearing.
Regards Ann
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 02 November 17 01:11 GMT (UK)
Hello Ann

Thanks for your message. Charles received the Afghan War medal for participating in the 1878-80 campaign, and a clasp for the battle of Ahmed Khel (19 April 1880).

Please feel free to post the photo with the unknown uniform ...

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Warwick1951 on Thursday 02 November 17 11:29 GMT (UK)
Thankyou Garen.I will try and upload photo but I think it may be too big.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 02 November 17 11:35 GMT (UK)
You can email it to me (http://www.garenewing.co.uk/contact.html) if you like - I can reduce it for posting.

Best - G
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 03 November 17 15:18 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen
My Great Grandfather served in the 59th regiment of Foot and was in Afghanistan from 13 Dec 1878 to the 26 Nov 1880. His name was Charles Horton. He fought in the battle of Ahmed Khel and was awarded an Afghan War medal.I'm not sure if he got the medal for fighting in the war or if it was for some specific action.I have a photo which may have been when he was a lot younger but I"m struggling to identify the uniform he"s wearing.
Regards Ann

Hello Ann

Thanks for sending the photo - I've uploaded a cropped version here in case anyone can add anything else.

I have limited expertise on uniforms but noted the fusilier style collar badge, though with the crossed cannon insignia on the left sleeve it points to the Royal Artillery.

I showed the photo to someone (thank you Frogsmile) who is much better with uniforms than me and he came back with the fact that the subject is a Royal Artillery Trumpeter - note the crossed trumpets on the right arm. The stripe on the left arm is a Good Conduct stripe (2-3 years service) and the uniform style might point to the early-mid 1890s.

This looks like it is almost certainly not Charles Horton. His service record (on FindMyPast) shows he enlisted with the 59th Foot and worked his way up from Private to Paymaster Sergeant and Quartermaster Sergeant. No sign of any RA service, and he served from 1867 to 1889. The photo is definitely not c.1870s.

Are we looking at the next generation here - one of Charles' sons?

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Warwick1951 on Monday 06 November 17 13:15 GMT (UK)
Hi Garen, I agree its not that Charles Horton, His son Charles Herbert Edward Horton, born 1888, served with the Royal Field Artillery (regimental no. 813) in 1911 until 1914(?). I suspect he was too young for that photo if , as you say, it was in the mid 1890's.
I'm attaching a photo of the Charles Horton who fought in the Afghan War which I have just been sent.
Once again thanks for your interest.
Ann
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Thursday 09 November 17 09:16 GMT (UK)
No worries, Ann. Glad you got a photograph of Charles - with his Afghan and Long Service Good Conduct medals. I will add Charles Horton on to the Afghan war database.

All best - Garen.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Warwick1951 on Thursday 09 November 17 23:40 GMT (UK)
Thankyou Garen. I appreciate that.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: brotan on Wednesday 29 November 17 08:04 GMT (UK)
Hi there,

Interesting forum to read, my G Grandfather Private Charles Samuel Smith born 1854 (#1498 - 9th Lancers) was in the march from Kabul to Kandahar and has two medals, the one for the march and the other for Afghanistan service, the ribbon on the Afghanistan medal has an additional red stripe in the middle compared to the ones I see on the internet which havd red on the outsides and broader green patch in the middle not the evenly distributed red, green, red, green, red pattern my G Grandfather has, does anyone know why this is different?

I have looked at getting his service records but see that it needs a cheque for $30 pound which I can not do from overseas. Any other ways anyone can suggest of doing it?

I did the whole ancestry.com thing among many others including pay per document ect but couldn't find much on him regarding the military side of things, spent many hundreds on other sites putting together genealogy including him but couldn't get much more on him. He must have been posted to india after this like many others from this campaign as he got married there to an English women in India in Dec 1882 and must have been there for another 1-2 years as they had a child there before having a 2nd child in England in 1884. 

Thanks
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 29 November 17 09:33 GMT (UK)
Hello brotan, thanks for your post.

I think the $30 you're quoting is for WWII records. I did a quick look-up on findmypast.co.uk and see that Charles' service record is up there, attesting at Westminster in Jan 1873 and discharged as 'medically unfit for service' in July 1883 (it seems from hepatitis). He was in India from Jan 1875 to May 1883, and married in Dec 1881.

As for the medal, it seems as though at some point the Afghan ribbon has been replaced with a ribbon for the 1895-1902 India Medal - perhaps the closest that could be obtained after the original one was lost or beyond repair.

Do you know when Charles died?

Best - Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: brotan on Wednesday 29 November 17 17:47 GMT (UK)
Thank you very much for that Garen,

Really appreciate you taking the time to look for that information.

Not sure when he died but we found him and his wife in the 1911 census aged 56 years old.

That would be it, the india medal ribbon, we didn't know there was an additional medal. He must have left india for the Afghanistan campaign though as his medal from the march was in 1880.


Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 29 November 17 18:16 GMT (UK)
Just to confirm that Charles was only in receipt of two medals - the Afghan War Medal (2 clasps) and the Kandahar Star. The India Medal ribbon was just a replacement ribbon - begged, borrowed or bought :-)

Seems he survived his hepatitis anyway!

All best -
Garen
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: brotan on Wednesday 29 November 17 18:27 GMT (UK)
Hepatitis I know about as a paramedic (although a few different strains A, B C...), it has the potential to hit the liver pretty hard but some people get it and have no idea, in those days I wonder if a blood transfusion was the source? I can imagine parts of india back then being less than sterile environments.

Thanks again for the help. 
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Granpa GHB on Wednesday 03 January 18 19:01 GMT (UK)
Hi, I joined to contribute to the Afghan War database.  My ancestor, George Hastings Bittleston, served in the 2nd Afghan war.  He was in the Royal Artillery and served in Ali Mujid, Pilar Koshel, Charnidai, Habul & Shorpose, Ahmed Kiel and Kandahar (apologies for the spellings - I can't transcribe all the place names).  He was born in 1856, educated Charterhouse and served in Afghanistan 1878-1882.  He married in 1882 and was in India in 1884, Woolwich in 1891 and at Dover Castle in 1911.  He was in France in Royal Artillery in Sept 1915.  He died in Camberwell in 1927.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Wednesday 03 January 18 23:22 GMT (UK)
Hello Granpa GHB - many thanks for your post.

I can help you out with those place names. In order: Ali Musjid, Peiwar Kotal, Charasia, Kabul and Sherpore, Ahmed Khel, and - as you have - Kandahar.

That's quite a list of actions! In fact, it's every clasp available. Looking at the medal roll I am not sure he was awarded all those clasps ... it does look like a tick in each column, but elsewhere, for others, 'yes' is written, and I think the 'yes' indicates an awarded clasp and the tick may actually be a badly styled dash (ie. no clasp).

I don't think anyone received both the Ahmed Khel clasp and the Kabul clasp - it's not impossible, but very unlikely.

It looks like Lt. G H Bittleston was attached to an un-recorded battery for the Afghan campaign - possibly the 4th Brigade, which could be one of five batteries (A, C, D, E or G). In Feb 1881 he moved from the 4th Brigade to serve as Aide-de-Camp to Brigadier-General Cobbe at Allahabad. Two months later he was A-d-C to Major-General Macpherson.

I will see if I can find out some more.

Thanks again - Garen.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Granpa GHB on Thursday 04 January 18 11:32 GMT (UK)
Many thanks for that clarification.  It was very helpful.  Best wishes with your work, "Granpa GHB"
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: pogo99 on Friday 18 May 18 16:44 BST (UK)
Good Afternoon.First time poster,hope i have got this right.
I am researching my 2x Great Grandad.He was  Private (got to sergeant,but busted)) William Bickerton who served in the 72nd Highlanders from 28/Sep/1859-21/July/1879 service number 536.I have his service/medical records and also Chelsea pension records.I have checked the medal roll WO 100/52 for that regiment for that period and i can't seem to find him,am i looking in the right place as i would like to confirm if any clasps awarded.Thank You.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: Garen on Friday 18 May 18 18:16 BST (UK)
Hello there

I think it looks like he perhaps didn't serve in Afghanistan - his medical record contains the line "Brought before an Invaliding Board on the [16] December 1878 & recommended for Discharge", with the previous entry recorded at Sialkot in Nov 1877, noting the condition that lead to his being no longer fit for service.

Having said that, the proceedings of the Regimental Board held on 5th March 1879 to confirm his discharge seems to have been held at Habib Kila in Afghanistan with Captains Guinness, Frome and Gildea - all on service in Afghanistan - and on the following page is William's signature. Whether that was signed there and then or much later is not clear - there are definitely multiple pens at work on the page. Certainly by July 1879 he was at the Netley Hospital.

The 72nd marched from Sialkot to Kohat in Oct/Nov 1878 - William may have been left at Sialkot as an invalid, or he may have stayed at Kohat with the left wing of the regiment while the right wing marched on with Col. Brownlow. In Jan 1879 the left wing moved into the Khost Valley. In April the regiment was stationed at Ali Khel until the conflict broke out again with the second phase of the war (in September). The 72nd being at Habib Kila in March 1879 fits the general area, it was a British garrison camp and not far from Ali Khel, and things were relatively peaceful then, so perhaps time for some regimental admin ...

I agree he's not on the medal roll, and along with the medical record, I think it confirms he didn't serve in Afghanistan, and was either back at Sialkot, or non-effective in some way.

Best - Garen


Good Afternoon.First time poster,hope i have got this right.
I am researching my 2x Great Grandad.He was  Private (got to sergeant,but busted)) William Bickerton who served in the 72nd Highlanders from 28/Sep/1859-21/July/1879 service number 536.I have his service/medical records and also Chelsea pension records.I have checked the medal roll WO 100/52 for that regiment for that period and i can't seem to find him,am i looking in the right place as i would like to confirm if any clasps awarded.Thank You.
Title: Re: Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80
Post by: pogo99 on Friday 18 May 18 20:14 BST (UK)
Hello there

I think it looks like he perhaps didn't serve in Afghanistan - his medical record contains the line "Brought before an Invaliding Board on the [16] December 1878 & recommended for Discharge", with the previous entry recorded at Sialkot in Nov 1877, noting the condition that lead to his being no longer fit for service.

Having said that, the proceedings of the Regimental Board held on 5th March 1879 to confirm his discharge seems to have been held at Habib Kila in Afghanistan with Captains Guinness, Frome and Gildea - all on service in Afghanistan - and on the following page is William's signature. Whether that was signed there and then or much later is not clear - there are definitely multiple pens at work on the page. Certainly by July 1879 he was at the Netley Hospital.

The 72nd marched from Sialkot to Kohat in Oct/Nov 1878 - William may have been left at Sialkot as an invalid, or he may have stayed at Kohat with the left wing of the regiment while the right wing marched on with Col. Brownlow. In Jan 1879 the left wing moved into the Khost Valley. In April the regiment was stationed at Ali Khel until the conflict broke out again with the second phase of the war (in September). The 72nd being at Habib Kila in March 1879 fits the general area, it was a British garrison camp and not far from Ali Khel, and things were relatively peaceful then, so perhaps time for some regimental admin ...

I agree he's not on the medal roll, and along with the medical record, I think it confirms he didn't serve in Afghanistan, and was either back at Sialkot, or non-effective in some way.

Best - Garen


Good Afternoon.First time poster,hope i have got this right.
I am researching my 2x Great Grandad.He was  Private (got to sergeant,but busted)) William Bickerton who served in the 72nd Highlanders from 28/Sep/1859-21/July/1879 service number 536.I have his service/medical records and also Chelsea pension records.I have checked the medal roll WO 100/52 for that regiment for that period and i can't seem to find him,am i looking in the right place as i would like to confirm if any clasps awarded.Thank You.
Thank you for your quick response and that does make sense.