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Messages - Elwyn Soutter

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Antrim / Re: Ewing
« on: Thursday 03 May 18 20:35 BST (UK)  »
Even though I have the date of death for James Ewing I have never been able to find his death certificate, and its not for want of trying ;D
I would be really grateful if fresh eyes would take a look.

He died Belfast,7th June 1878 Thanks

I canít see the death either. I have checked both GRONI and the irishgenealogy site. I would phone or e-mail GRONI with the death information you have (which is pretty clear and specific), and ask them to check the original registers for Belfast to see if the death is there but has been overlooked when the records were put on-line. If itís not there, then the conclusion would seem to be that it wasnít registered, which did happen from time to time.

Antrim / Re: Need help with Thomas HENRY, Ballymoney
« on: Thursday 03 May 18 03:25 BST (UK)  »

Thereís not a lot in it with the 2 mens ages. Both were born around the same time. I would get copies of both wills from PRONI to see if the information in them assists.  Have you studied both death certificates?

The Thomas Lyle Henry who died in 1917 was a bachelor, and a farmer, and lived at New Buildings. So he looks to be the man in the 1901 census who I suggested could be the man you are looking for. The 1931 death is not on-line free and so you would need to pay to view it on the GRONI site.

The 2 marriage certificates indicate the father was 1 a labourer and 2 a farmer which partially fits with the 1917 death.  The 1931 death appears to have been for someone who was of independent means and who had been a land steward for a local estate.  That doesnít fit so well.

Just to add a little, I noticed this lady who died in India but who was from Stranocum. I suspect she might be a relation of the Stranocum Lyle Henry. (Sister being the one that springs to mind). You might be interested in her will too.

Henry Rachel Jane Lyle of Borsad India and Stranocum county Antrim spinster died 21 March 1932 at former place Probate Belfast 26 October to Sara Lyle McElderry spinster and David Irwin justice of the peace. Effects £418 2s. 5d.

Antrim / Re: What can I expect from PRONI records?
« on: Wednesday 02 May 18 13:17 BST (UK)  »

In my experience, PRONI will do simple pieces of work for you. For example, if you want a copy of a will, and itís in their possession, theyíll copy it (for a fee). Likewise if you want a copy of a baptism or marriage record that they hold, and you know the location and date (or approximate date) they will copy it, where copyright allows, or transcribe it when it doesnít. What they wonít do is a trawling search. So if you are looking for all Murphy baptisms and marriages in a particular parish from say 1825 Ė 1900, that might be a huge amount of work. Hard to quantify and too time consuming.  You need a researcher for that.

Researchers in the PRONI area:

Antrim / Re: Toal, Toule, Toil, Toll, Toole, O'Toole... all Antrim
« on: Wednesday 02 May 18 07:07 BST (UK)  »
The link that I gave takes you to an image of the actual marriage register. It not an index and there is no additional information to be found in other church records.  Statutory marriage registration began in 1864 for RC marriages and 1845 for non RC.  The statutory records contain a bit more information but prior to that you have to rely on church records. Often all they contain is the couples names, their 2 witnesses and the date. That was all that was required by the church at that time. Sometimes you get a townland or an occupation but often not.

Antrim / Re: Toal, Toule, Toil, Toll, Toole, O'Toole... all Antrim
« on: Monday 23 April 18 20:10 BST (UK)  »
Hereís a link to the actual record of Francis Toalís marriage to Mary Keagan on 7th April 1850. It was in Duneane RC parish. So it took place in either Cargin or Moneyglass chapels (there were 2 churches in the parish at that time) and it was an RC ceremony.

Duneane isnít Ballymena. Itís about 15 miles from Ballymena. I think some of the internet sites get the locations a bit confused. Duneane is the parish immediately to the west of Drummaul (Randalstown) and covers the area between Randalstown and the banks of the Bann, which is where Co. Londonderry starts.

Down & Connor is the bishopís administrative district which includes most of counties Antrim & Down.  It isnít where the folk lived just the diocese (bishopís administrative area) where the event occurred. Like being born in New York state means you might be born anywhere in that area.

I canít comment on the locations of the childrenís births save to say that it was very common for people from the Randalstown area to go and work in Scotland. Easy and cheap to get to, better employment prospects, and easy to come home for a wedding or a holiday. So nothing unusual about finding people from the Randalstown area with children born in Scotland (usually in the area around Glasgow).

Hereís a link to Rose Toalís marriage on 10.11.1839 in Duneane. Again an RC ceremony:

Her spouse appears on Ancestry as James Kurgan but thatís not a common local name, and I would not be certain that is correct. (James is OK but the surname might be something else).

Antrim / Re: Toal, Toule, Toil, Toll, Toole, O'Toole... all Antrim
« on: Monday 23 April 18 18:45 BST (UK)  »
I agree that by Johnís death it looks as though the family had moved away from the farm. They went to Ballytresna for some reason. Perhaps staying with a relative. Martha was living there in 1855 so she at least had left Lurgan West by then.

Ballymena isnít where they were living when they married. They just married there (in the Register Office).  The place where they were living, is on the marriage certificate Ė Ballytresna. In all 3 marriages.

I think the Toal family was RC, and I think all 3 girls all married Presbyterians. Mixed marriages often caused difficulties when it came to deciding which church to marry in. No matter what you decided, one family was bound to be offended, and the answer for some couples, was to marry in a Register Office. A safe no manís land if you like.  Ballytresna is in the Ballymena Register Office catchment area. Thereís just the 1 Register Office in the area. So thatís why they would have gone there. But they didnít live in Ballymena.

From what you say, after the marriages, the girls adopted their husbandís denomination but I donít think they were Presbyterian before that. I have not come across any Presbyterian Toal families in the Randalstown area. All are RC. And the 1901 census tends to bear that out. I donít see any protestant Toal families in the area at all. (And the Ordnance Survey memoirs seem to suggest the Lurgan West family was RC too).  And that is probably why your DNA results connect with RC families.

For the place of birth, I would put Lurgan West, Randalstown, Co Antrim. That would have been the postal address in the 19th century. (The modern address would be Mountshalgus Lane, Randalstown BT41). But you havenít actually proven they were born there yet. Only that their likely father lived there between at least 1834 and around 1861. They may have been born there but without a baptism to confirm it you canít be certain. The Drummaul RC baptism records start in about 1825 and are on the nli site. Have you checked them?

Dublin / Re: Dublin South Workhouse record - 'off pass' ?
« on: Monday 23 April 18 18:20 BST (UK)  »
In workhouses the main premises and the infirmary were normally adjacent. I doubt you would need a pass to go from one to the other. But I might be wrong.

Antrim / Re: Toal, Toule, Toil, Toll, Toole, O'Toole... all Antrim
« on: Monday 23 April 18 12:47 BST (UK)  »
Ballytresna is about a mile out of Randalstown, on the Portglenone Rd. So about 2 miles from Lurgan West which is off to the south of the town. There are no Toal households there in Griffiths in 1862, nor in the Valuation Revision records that follow.

The only Toal farm in the parish in both the tithes (1834) and Griffiths (1862) is John Toal in Lurgan West, so I suspect thatís where your family had their farm even if they were living in Ballytresna in the early 1860s.

At least 1 of the marriages appears to have been in Ballymena registry office, often a sign of a mixed marriage. Most of the Toal families around Randalstown were RC, so would have attended Drummaul RC church in Randalstown. There is a graveyard there that dates from around 1830. Prior to that families would mostly have used Old Drummaul graveyard or Cranfield or perhaps Cargin.

I had a look in the Ordnance Survey memoirs for Drummaul parish (1838), under emigration, it mentions an Eliza Toole, aged 40, RC, from Lurgan West who had gone to live in Glasgow in 1837. Presumably she was part of this same Toal family.

The memoirs comment: ďThose who have emigrated for the last 3 years were chiefly labourers and small farmers, with a few tradesmen, who could command little or no capital, but emigrated to seek in a foreign land that comfort their own country no longer affords. All good characters.Ē

Antrim / Re: Toal, Toule, Toil, Toll, Toole, O'Toole... all Antrim
« on: Monday 23 April 18 08:21 BST (UK)  »
The certificates on the GRONI site are the originals, not transcripts. Itís vital to view them to get the bridesí addresses. Otherwise you are not going to be able to confirm this is the right family. All 3 marriages (including Martha Toal to John Stewart on 17.3.55) are there, as well as the death I referred to. You can view the original certificates on-line on the GRONI website, using the ďsearch registrationsĒ option:

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

Tradition was to marry in the brideís church which should be on the certificate (unless it was a Registry Office marriage). That church may be the place to look for the girlsí baptisms and that of any siblings.

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