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Messages - Elwyn Soutter

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You  would need to know Georgeís denomination and roughly where he came from to have much chance of tracing him. Looking at the 1901 census of Co Down there were 8 people named George Ross so a fairly common name. They were a mix of Presbyterians and Church of Ireland (Anglican). So probably descended from Scots who settled in the county in the 1600s.

I would get a copy of Georgeís death certificate to see if it names his parents. That would be helpful in ensuring you find the right family.

Not all the churches in Co Down have records for 1807, and of those that do, not all are on-line. The most complete set of records is in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast but searching the entire county might involve looking at 300 sets of records, so you need to try and narrow the search somehow. And you need his parents names.

Not that it really makes any difference to the original question but the marriage registers for Berry St are on microfilm at PRONI - MIC1P/388. CR3/34 is actually a printed history of the church, presumably created to commemorate some important date. So itíll list all the Ministers, alterations to the building, the elders and those who subscribed to it. But no marriage records there.

I should be in PRONI next week. If you send me a PM with your e-mail address, I'll get you a copy of the church version, and save you the PRONI fee.

I see that PRONI have records from this church Ref: CR3/34

I have a William Cochrane who married a Jane Sterling (Stirling/Starling) at Berry Street,later St Enoch's Presbyterian on 18th February 1861.

Does anyone have experience of these registers and can tell me what sort of information may have been recorded for the marriage? e.g. is a mother's name included and well as a father's name ? would there be actual ages for bride and groom, other than 'minor' or 'of full age'?

If there is even an outside chance of further information other than that on the civil record, I can ask PRONI for a quote for obtaining a copy (am too far away to visit)



When someone married in Ireland, 2 copies were made of the marriage certificate. One stayed with the church and the other was sent off to GRO (and became the civil version). Both should be identical.
What PRONI have should be the church version.

The format for Irish marriages is identical to English certificates, so no mothers names. Age may be given but often its just full age or minor. It depended on the Ministerís inclinations.

I think the townland is Inchinlinane, parish of Clondrohid.

Antrim / Re: Ballyvoy townland, Kilbride Parish, Doagh
« on: Yesterday at 10:25 »
Townland names have changed over the years. If you look at Penders Census c 1659, you will find plenty of townland names that are not in use today. There were alternative names for some, subdivision names for parts of some townlands and a wide variety of spelling variations. I have heard experts on Griffiths explain that the clerks tried to standardise the names a bit, and consequently some of the names start to disappear post Griffiths. Some of the subdivision names can be found on maps (as in the case of Douglasland for example) just not in the list of standardised place names use don Griffiths.

Ireland Resources / Re: Irish Travel Permit Card 30's to 40's (ish)
« on: Wednesday 21 February 18 12:50 GMT (UK)  »

Lots on line about the cards but I can't find what department issued them does it say on the card you have?

The article indicates that the Irish Travel Permits (ie those for Irish citizens) were issued by An Garda Siochana (the Irish police). See page 2, penultimate paragraph.  If any records of them survive Ė and I suspect they donít, because Irish genealogists would probably be aware of them Ė then I would expect them to be in the National Archives in Dublin.

From other discussions about these documents elsewhere, my understanding is they were in use from 1939 to about 1950.

The UK issued its citizens with National Identity cards during the war, and they were acceptable for travel to and from Ireland, in lieu of a passport, during the wartime period.

Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Bryan family
« on: Tuesday 20 February 18 20:36 GMT (UK)  »
The 1831 census for Coleraine only lists 1 Bryans family. The household was headed by James Bryans and consisted of 3 males and 2 females, all Church of Ireland (ie Anglican). Perhaps thatís your family?

The Coleraine Church of Ireland baptism, marriage & burial records start in 1769. Thereís a copy in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast.

1901 census has just 1 Bryans family in Coleraine:

Chas & wife Sarah Park, married 1898 in Portrush. Both born in Coleraine. His father was John Bryans, a furnace man.

Antrim / Re: 1832 Tithe Applotment Books
« on: Tuesday 20 February 18 17:08 GMT (UK)  »
Hi All
Is there a way to perhaps link the 1832 tithe applotment books for Antrim to a specific farm?
Thanks Will

If the family was still living in the same townland by the time of Griffiths Valuation (c 1860 for Antrim) then the maps that go with it should show you where the farm was.

Australia / Re: Criteria for getting a British Passport
« on: Friday 09 February 18 22:20 GMT (UK)  »
Hi All,

I guess the question now should be not how to get a British Passport but how does one hold British Nationality.  My husband's father was born in England but came to Oz when aged 8 in the 1920s.  Married an Australian but apparently my husband and his Australian born siblings are entitled to British Nationality.  No idea what would happen if they applied for a British passport.  Hopefully hubby doesn't want to become an Australian politician! ::)   


UK nationality legislation has changed many times over the years but in very simple terms, you get nationality by descent by either being born in the UK or by being the child of someone born in the UK.  (You can also acquire nationality through the naturalisation process but I am pretty sure thatís not what you are asking about here).

So for someone born in the UK who moved to Australia and had a child in Australia, that child was entitled to a British passport. But nationality did not pass on to the next generation born in Australia, because that 3rd generation was not born in the UK or have a parent born in the UK.

So yes, your husband and his siblings would appear to be eligible for a British passport if they wanted. The UK has no issues with dual citizenship (and neither does Australia as far as I am aware) and people often have 2 passports for different countries.  Means you can usually go through the ďhome citizensĒ passport desks at both ends of your journey without any detailed interviews by nasty immigration officials.

As has been mentioned some countries like the Republic of Ireland allow nationality to go back to grandparents. However the UK does not.  (And I donít think Australia does either).

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