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Messages - Forfarian

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Scotland / Re: Are we from Scotland?
« on: Today at 15:50 »
All this information has come via various on-line sites and I've not been able to view any church records. They have been cross-referenced with other data and I'm as certain as I can be that he is a relative.
Never believe unconditionally anything you find online, unless it is an image of an original document (and even then be wary because errors in original documents are not unknown). You maye be doing fine so far, but at some stage you must plan to go to the sources and look at all the original documents.

Freereg shows that the parents of the Isobel Lip born 1779 in the parish of Botriphnie were living at a place called Mill of Towie. Keith is only about 3 miles from Mill of Towie, Botriphnie.

Hmmm. John Lip and Elspet Steinson did have a daughter Margaret, born in Keith in 1781, so just about the right age to marry in 1805.

According to LIBINDX Margaret Lipp, wife of William Cruickshank, died in Rothiemay in 1862 and is buried in Keith. So it isn't going to be difficult to confirm her parentage.

Whether that is also enough to prove that her sister is the Isobel Lipp who married William Bain I am not sure. Maybe one of Isobel's children registered Margaret's death?

Wait a minute .... in 1851 Margaret Cruickshank is in the household of her great-nieces Isobella Henry, widow, born Mortlach, and Jessie Anderson, and in 1861 she is listed as Margaret Lipp in the household of Alexander Milne and his wife Isabella, born Mortlach, who is exactly 10 years older than Isobella Henry was in 1851. You can view the full details of these censuses at

The IGI confirms that the children listed in the 1861 are those of Alexander Milne and Isabella Anderson, whose marriage on 20 November 1851 was recorded in both Grange and Rothiemay.

Now, there's a birth of Isabella, born 25 November 1825 in Mortlach, daughter of Charles Anderson and Isabel Bain. I looked on SP and was unable to resist the temptation to check the death of Isabel Bain, aged 62, in Mortlach in 1862. She was indeed the daughter of William Bain and Isobel Lipp.

I reckon that is enough to show that Isabella Lipp, wife of William Bain, was indeed the daughter of John Lipp and Elspet Steinson.

1. Lipp John
    sp: Steinson Elspet (m.22 Dec 1778)
    2. Lipp Isabella (b.1779-,Botriphnie,Banffshire,Scotland)
        sp: Bain William (m.23 Sep 1797)
        3. Bain Margaret (b.13 Jan 1798-,Keith,Banffshire,Scotland)
        3. Bain Isabella (b.16 Dec 1799-,Keith,Banffshire,Scotland)
        sp: Anderson Charles (m.26 Apr 1821)
            4. Anderson Isabella (b.25 Nov 1825-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
                sp: Henry William (m.18 Mar 1847)
                sp: Milne Alexander (m.20 Nov 1851)
                     5. Milne George Duncan (b.8 Sep 1852-,Rothiemay,Banffshire,Scotland)
                     5. Milne Alexander (b.19 Mar 1854-,Rothiemay,Banffshire,Scotland)
                     5. Milne Margaret (b.15 Jun 1857-,Rothiemay,Banffshire,Scotland)
                     5. Milne Isabella (b.12 Feb 1869-,Rothiemay,Banffshire,Scotland)
             4. Anderson Elizabeth (b.27 May 1831-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
             4. Anderson James (b.1835/1836-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
             4. Anderson Jessie (b.1840/1841-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
        3. Bain John (b.15 Oct 1804-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
        3. Bain Elspet (b.27 Feb 1807-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
        3. Bain Jean (b.22 Jan 1809-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
        3. Bain James (b.1 Apr 1811-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
        3. Bain Alexander (b.3 Jan 1813-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
       3. Bain Janet (b.9 Feb 1816-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
    2. Lipp Margaret (b.23 Dec 1781-,Botriphnie,Banffshire,Scotland; d.1862-,Rothiemay,Banffshire,Scotland)
       sp: Cruickshank William (m.26 May 1805)

But never trust anything you see online, unless it's an original certificate. Not even what I am saying - you need to make sure that you have the sources and proof. You still need to follow up by checking the originals of the census, Margaret Lipp or Cruickshank's death certificate (1862), and the death certificate of Isabella Anderson or Henry or Milne.

I am sorry that I am going to sound like a wet blanket, but can you actually prove the relationships for every successive generation back to 1609 using evidence other than the registers of baptisms and marriages?

Midlothian / Re: Church in Loanhead.
« on: Today at 10:48 »
I`ve never done a Scottish family before,  , with some of the family names it`s even worse than the  Jones`s back down here  ;)
At least the Scottish records, when you do get used to finding them, contain far more information than English/Welsh/Irish ones.

In particular the inclusion in birth certificates of the date and place of the parents' marriage, the inclusion in marriage certificates of the couple's mothers' maiden surnames, and the inclusion in death certificates of the full names, including mother's maiden surname, of the parents of the deceased, are a huge bonus for reasearchers.

And, of course, older certificates cost a fraction of what English ones cost.

Midlothian / Re: Church in Loanhead.
« on: Today at 10:44 »
Would this have been the Church
Probably not. Weddings in the church building were the exception rather than the rule until the late 19th century, and even in the 20th century it was common for them to be conducted elsewhere.

Traditionally, most wedding ceremonies were held in the bride's parents' home. If she had no parents living, or was married a long way from home, the wedding might be in the manse or in her employer's home. By the early 20th century weddings were often conducted in hotels, restaurants or in church or public halls.

Looking for info on 3rd great grandparents William Bain and Isobel Lipp.
I have them married 23 Sep 1797 in Keith Banffshire. 
A closer match for William Bain.  I find a birth 21/05/1780 in Fordyce, Banff.
This William Bain would have been only 16 years old on 23 September 1797. Legally, he could have married, but it is very unusual for a young man to marry so young at that time. He needed to be able to support a wife and family before getting married, and most 16-year-olds were not in a position to do so.

I see that their recorded children are
Margaret, 1798
Isobel, 1799
John, 1804
Elspet, 1807
Jean, 1809
James, 1811
Alexander, 1813
Janet, 1816.
There's quite a gap between Isobel and John, which could mean that there was another, unrecorded, child.

The Scottish naming tradition goes:
First daughter after mother's mother
First son after father's father
Second daughter after father's mother
Second son after mother's father
Third daughter after mother
Third son after father

If they followed the naming tradition, you would expect William's father to be John and Isobel's father to be James. This breaks down, however, because you'd expect the third son to be William, and he isn't. If, however, there was an unrecorded William between Isobel and John, you'd expect William's father to be William and Isobel's to be John. You would expect Isobel's mother to be Margaret, but you can't tell whether to expect William's mother also to be Margaret or Isobel/Isabella.

What is noticeable is that there is no Barbara among the daughters (unless there was a Barbara between Isobel and John) and it is pretty unlikely that someone whose mother's name was Barbara would not name one of his five daughters after his mother.

So that's two reasons why I think that the son of James Bain and Barbara Reid is unlikely to be the one who married Isobel Lipp.

I do find an Isabel Lipp born 26/09/1773 in Drumblade with only a father ALEXANDER LIPP  listed.  A bit of a distance from the marriage location of Keith
You could walk from Keith to Drumblade in a day - it's only about 15 miles.

I find a birth 21/05/1780 in Fordyce, Banff.  Parents JAMES BAIN and BARBARA REID.  Would Fordyce be a long distance for someone to travel in the 1770s?
No. 13 miles.

Would their marriage document or another document yield parents?
Extremely unlikely that the marriage record would name their parents, and unlikely that they would survive until the start of civil registration in 1855.

Unless they owned land (also very unlikely) you will struggle to prove their parentage. Even if you do find a likely candidate, there is always a possibility that there was another person of the same name whose baptism record has not survived.

I just checked my database. From 1780 to 1800 I have 719 people in my tree born in Scotland. I have failed to find the baptism records of 157 of these - that's about one in five.

For Banffshire only the corresponding figures are 31 and 3 - about one in ten. That's better, but still not enough to be sure that the only candidate is the right candidate.

I wasted a lot of time when I was starting out following the tree of someone born in exactly the right parish in Aberdeenshire in exactly the right year, until I got the death certificate and discovered that my relative was someone entirely different whose baptism is not on record.

Earlier thread on the Dunbar family

In my tree is John Dunbar, who fathered an illegitimate child by Elizabeth Cuthbert. This was Mary Dunbar, born 20 March 1830, died 6 December 1888 in Keith. I have no information at all about John Dunbar. I wonder if he could be Anna's brother? When did 'your' John Dunbar emigrate to Canada?

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