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Messages - BushInn1746

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The Common Room / Re: Why would someone lie on a marriage certificate?
« on: Tuesday 15 January 19 16:09 GMT (UK)  »
There must be a Legal mechanism in place, when the location of one or even both parents is unknown.

My Sister married about 1980 and she required my Father's Consent because she was still 17.

Still applies today -  consent is required under 18.

But if she had lied and claimed to be 19, that wouldn't automatically make the marriage invalid.

For an answer regarding the question, you would have to refer to the various UK Marriage Acts.


For us as Family Historians the information given on a Marriage Certificate ought to be correct, especially on the Certificate/s where the Marriage Parties are actually signing.

The Common Room / Re: Why would someone lie on a marriage certificate?
« on: Tuesday 15 January 19 14:23 GMT (UK)  »
My Sister married about 1980 and she required my Father's Consent because she was still 17.

I seem to recall the age then was 18 and if she waited a year, she would no longer require my Dad's Consent to Marry.


The Common Room / Re: Why would someone lie on a marriage certificate?
« on: Tuesday 15 January 19 13:48 GMT (UK)  »

The law has changed over time, but today, a person lying on a marriage notice, banns or marriage register may commit an offence of perjury (S3.1 Perjury Act 1911), but that does not automatically invalidate the marriage (unless the lie was to hide that the person was already married, the person was actually under 16, or too closely related to their spouse).

In cases of parental consent, it would also depend on whether such consent had been actively refused or just never asked for ......but someone would have to actively seek to have the marriage declared invalid/void.


Thank you.

I made a comment not to criticise anyone. Information given on a signed Marriage Certificate and Declaration should be correct.

Your reply still suggests the seriousness of the matter.


A more detailed examination of the Marriage Acts is required regarding validity.


Parental consent

No marriage of a person under the age of 21 was valid without the consent of parents or guardians. Clergymen who disobeyed the law were liable for 14 years transportation.

Although Jews and Quakers were exempted from the 1753 Act, it required religious non-conformists and Catholics to be married in Anglican churches.


It appears the question of validity was originally a historic one, but would require an examination of the various UK Marriage Acts (if Marrying in the UK) to confirm if that part of the Act applied/still applies?


The Common Room / Re: Why would someone lie on a marriage certificate?
« on: Tuesday 15 January 19 11:25 GMT (UK)  »
Could it be then that he did not have his parents' permission, but she did?

Over 40 years ago I lied on my marriage certificate. I couldn't find my father for his consent, and I was under 21 (so need parental permission to marry) so I said he was dead - no doubt to the confusion of future genealogists! So you can't take even relatively modern BMD certificates as being gospel truth!


If anyone else is reading the above.

Don't do this!

Where permission of a living parent is required, it seems that permission is required for the Marriage to be Lawfully valid (UK).

There must be a Legal mechanism in place, when the location of one or even both parents is unknown.

I'm wondering if it could lead to problems regarding inheritance etc., from that date and into the future.

Not to mention dishonesty claiming someone is dead, when they are alive to gain something or gain an advantage might be considered as Fraud.


Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Log of H.M.S. Blonde transcription please
« on: Thursday 10 January 19 00:22 GMT (UK)  »
It could be “sick” 21 of the 149 men are noted as sick in the next day’s entries when the rest of them were brought on board,

Yes, as I thought - sick

with the sick, & sundry effects of the ship's Co. [Company] (crew).
Emp'd unloading & dispatching the boats
(o added to make unloading)
(Emp'd / employed)


Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Log of H.M.S. Blonde transcription please
« on: Thursday 10 January 19 00:00 GMT (UK)  »
with the sick[?], & sundry effects of the Ships Co

letter 'a' elsewhere is always a closed letter and a definite a,
I don't see ... sails

Emp'd (Employed) ...


World War Two / Re: WW2 National Fire Service records, where?
« on: Wednesday 09 January 19 19:24 GMT (UK)  »

If you have tried the County Fire Service / Fire Brigade HQ.

Some stations also hung on to their records and there was not always systematic record keeping.

When Coastguard, Observer Corps, Posts / Fire Stations closed, Officers interested in those activities took some home, which in effect saved them, but in private hands. Some of these have found their way into archives, but got split up from any main collections (that were saved).

Try County and City Archives. Check if advance permission is required to see records.

Named people also appear in Fire Brigade day to day records, during WW 2.

For Wartime incidents (which may name Officers involved) see Occurrence Books or Fire Committee; War Committee; Emergency Planning and ARP Committee records, Unexploded bombs, Log Books etc.

Example of Personnel Record Cards released by Bedfordshire in 1995 to the Bedfordshire County Archives, back to 1941.

Fire Service Personnel
Record Cards (Bedfordshire - part?)
(Held Bedfordshire Archives)

"National Fire" search 1941 to 1945

Try the relevant County Archives / City Archives etc


Family History Beginners Board / Re: Marriage LICENCES
« on: Wednesday 09 January 19 11:08 GMT (UK)  »
Always good to obtain a copy of the Bond and Allegation (Licence was passed to the church) for the licence.  They will usually give a little more information, ages might not be definite, i.e. aged 21 and upwards, but you will usually find an occupation for the groom.  The names of the Bondsmen may also give you further insight.

Hello Amberella

The Marriage Allegation and the Marriage Bond are in effect the Application and Oaths to get a Licence.

Every family historian who finds a Marriage by Lic / Licence ought to endeavour to obtain copies of both the Marriage Allegation and also the Marriage Bond where they survive.

A Bondsman might be related or a known associate to one of the couple.

Ages given for example "23 and upwards" usually appears to be their ages they gave (23 years).

Also their Marital status, where an early Register does not state it.

A book I have Tracing Your Family History by Anthony Adolph, p.100 (Indexed) says:-
"Be aware that, between September 1822 and March 1823 only, both couples had to produce evidence of baptism or an equivalent Certificate proving their age: these will be found with the allegation and are well worth seeking."

It would seem at least one party to the couple had to prove when and where they were baptised or born, unless between Sept 1822 and March 1823 when both had to.

In one Scarborough Marriage Bond (No Allegation) for a Mariner who was likely to be away for long periods, there was a paragraph on the reverse of the Marriage Bond, giving ages and occupation (snippets here) and a reference to whom the Licence was given to ...

Bear in mind a party/parties to the Marriage with a parent / parents who is/are Nonconformist/s is unlikely to have had a Parish Baptism and this can be one reason for requiring a Licence and the fact that they may not want their Banns read in Church (for either Privacy, that they did not want to wait for Banns, or that they did NOT attend the Parish Church), so opted for a Licence due to one or several of these reasons.

Nonconformism is the refusal to conform to the C of E / Anglican or attend the Parish church. Research in some Towns and Townships indicate the first Erected dates of these Nonconformist Chapels were originally opened late 17th Century or during the 18th Century and some had followers in the area before the Chapel even opened in the locality.

Presbyterian / English Presbyterian (England & Wales)
Wesleyan / Wesleyan Methodist
(there are more)
Catholic (Up until the Catholic Relief Act allowing them to Legally Marry in their own churches).

The Marriage Act 1753, full title "An Act for the Better Preventing of Clandestine Marriage", popularly known as Lord Hardwicke's Marriage Act, forced the above and Nonconformists to marry in a Parish Church, until the Law was relaxed.

Jews and Quakers had their own Wedding arrangements.

When you see "Lic" or "Licence" or any other secondary record mentioned in any document, I personally would always obtain a copy, (ages are important and not always in the Marriage Register) and until the Allegation & Bond are both seen, you don't know what snippet/s (if any) of further information lurk in them?

In the case of Marriage Licences, go for the Allegation and Bond, as these are the Oaths and part of the application process. In my Marriage cases the Licences haven't survived as I have asked for them too.

If one happens to be under the age of 21, a parent (or relative where the parents are deceased, or away on business e.g. Mariner) may be a signatory?


The Common Room / Re: Please could someone look over my brick wall hypothesis?
« on: Monday 07 January 19 18:06 GMT (UK)  »

On the Lancashire Archives Catalogue, there are loads of
Challinor / Challiner / Challenor / Challoner / Challener / Chalinor / Chaliner / Chalenor / Chaloner

(Not quite sure if I have all the main combinations with those above?)

When searching archives there are so many different surname combinations, you can spell the surname with one 'l' and 'll' and there may be more combinations than those above, to search too?

You might also try these above begining Chel ... and Chell ... too, when searching Archives.


Try them all here too, as there may be some in relating to Oldham or Lancashire, held in other County collections.

Also you can try University Library Collections / Special Collections.

Don't forget Manchester too, like the John Rylands University.

READERS TICKET (Accessing Collections)
If visiting these places to see records make sure you can prove who are and where you live:- Passport / Photo Driving Licence PLUS something official very recently posted to your home address with both your name and address on within the last three months, like a Tax Notice / Utility Water Bill Statement / C/Tax Bill / Bank Statement / etc.

Bear in mind with the large number of Archives search surname returns, that these search returns are likely to be only a tiny fraction of records which survived and have been donated and transcribed so far.

But it may give some idea, that there was (or not) a family of that Surname in the Oldham / Ouldham area.

Also as we discovered at Lancashire Archives a Landowner's collection (who had many named Tenants in Rentals and Accounts Books and Volumes), that the main volumes had not yet been catalogued themselves (which contained the Tenants forenames and surnames within them).

Look for Oldham and nearby places in the same County and over any nearby County borders.

I feel there are far too many Lancashire Archives Search surname returns to start looking at Leicestershire.

If you have an 1836 death, is there a Headstone, or a Will, what was his Occupation, what else do you know about him, or what he did?

Have you entertained the idea that at some point they were Catholic or Nonconformist? Not C of E.

A Parish Church burial and a Marriage usually by Lic / Licence, can still mean Nonconformist, or even Catholic. Catholics if they wish to legally marry, had to marry in a Parish Church, as an unlawful Catholic Marriage was not recognised by the State 18th Century, (see Hardwicke's Marriage Act, 18th Century).

Some of these Nonconformist records don't survive. How old were the first NC Chapels in Oldham (in History Books about Oldham) and do their NC Registers go back to the very first opening.

I couldn't see Chalonor & Challonor spellings at Lancashire Archives.

Any in the same household in the Census (from 1841 onward), who could be related (perhaps not in the Direct line) and if any, have you looked at them too? How are they related? Are those others also going back to a dead end as it were?


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