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Messages - Timbottawa

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1
The Common Room / Re: Prison Second division 1921
« on: Tuesday 06 February 24 09:51 GMT (UK)  »
My grandfather was imprisoned in the second division in 1922 for 6 weeks.  Would he have (most likely) gone to the nearest prison, or could he have gone to any prison?

Thanks for all thoughts!

2
The Common Room / Re: Emma Deighton, born about 1843, later "Butler"
« on: Saturday 16 February 19 02:48 GMT (UK)  »
Jan ... as you are new to RootsChat, I'm not sure if you have noticed the personal messaging facility.  I sent you a personal message asking for your email address so I can send you a biography of Henry Thomas Butler.

3
The Common Room / Re: Emma Deighton, born about 1843, later "Butler"
« on: Thursday 14 February 19 04:24 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Jan,

Yes, the frustrations of researching such a common name as Butler!  Especially in London.  You can easily end up investing large amounts of money ordering certificates that turn out to be incorrect.  But let us see if, working together, we can find some trace of Henry William and Charles Edward's descendants.

Speaking of large amounts of money, DNA tests cost in the region of GBP 30-40.  I would be happy to cover the costs if there was a clear benefit from the tests, but lacking Ellen's birth certificate, it is not yet clear that there would be any benefit.

Yes, my ancestry is through Henry Thomas and Margaret (McHale).  Their 3rd child and oldest daughter was Edith Marguerite, who was my father's mother.  My full name includes "Butler", as does my brother's.

All the best, Tim


4
London and Middlesex / Re: "Duke of Ormond" P.H., Princes St., Westminster
« on: Tuesday 12 February 19 08:14 GMT (UK)  »
Ah yes - thanks!

My attention was caught by the occupant of no. 8, John Butler, boot and shoe maker.  Some 17 years or so later, a Henry Butler wooed Margaret McHale, daughter of the publican of the Duke of Ormond.  I have never been able to locate Henry in any census before 1881, so I wondered if he had actually been living, virtually, next-door, as early as 1851.

But it seems not.  John and his 61-year-old wife were living without children in 1851.

5
London and Middlesex / Re: "Duke of Ormond" P.H., Princes St., Westminster
« on: Tuesday 12 February 19 07:49 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks KGarrad.  Yes, as far as I can tell, numbers 1 to about 11 were demolished in the 1870's to build the Royal Aquarium.  That means that the houses on the extreme right of the attached photo, while probably not the Duke of Ormond, were possibly next-door or next-door-but-one.

The Royal Aquarium and adjoining houses, including the Duke of Ormond, were demolished at the beginning of the 20th century for the construction of the Methodist Central Hall, which is the current building.

6
London and Middlesex / Re: "Duke of Ormond" P.H., Princes St., Westminster
« on: Tuesday 12 February 19 07:44 GMT (UK)  »
Great - thanks for the confirmation.  What year is that Directory?

7
London and Middlesex / "Duke of Ormond" P.H., Princes St., Westminster
« on: Tuesday 12 February 19 06:29 GMT (UK)  »
I'm trying to tie down precisely the location of my g-grandfather's pub, the "Duke of Ormond", at 17 Prince's St. (now Storey's Gate), Westminster.

According to the 1842 Directory, there were 3 public houses on Prince's St.: the Duke of Ormond, then the Red Lion, at 21, and the Prince's Head at 24.

I've attached an extract from the 1893/6 OS map (I expect I'll get into trouble about this, but the web-site says that images can be used for non-commercial purposes as long as I state: 'Reproduced with the permission of the National Library of Scotland').  Granted it is 50 years later, but there are still 3 pubs on the street.  Presumably the Red Lion is going to be the one in the middle, but is the Duke of Ormond the one at the northern end of the street or the southern? 

I cannot find online a map with house numbers.  My strong suspicion is that the D of O is at the southern end, as in the 1842 Directory, the Prince's Head is next door to Storey's Gate Coffee House, which is definitely at the northern end.  But I would welcome any confirmation - or contradiction.

Thanks

8
The Common Room / Re: Emma Deighton, born about 1843, later "Butler"
« on: Tuesday 12 February 19 02:44 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Jan,

I've not yet done any DNA testing, because I have not had any need to do so.  Now things may be different.  As you probably know, the process is very simple - you swab the inside of your cheek and send it off!

But is it worth it in this case?  Since your husband is a descendant of Ellen, we have to ask if Henry Thomas Butler was her father, or not.  We are missing her birth certificate, and without it we have no information on her father, other than her marriage certificate, which is of questionable accuracy.  If she was really born in Liverpool, I don't think HT could have been her father, as I have no information showing an association with Liverpool before 1875.  But I note that in the 1891 census, Ellen (now Hunt) records her birthplace as Kennington.

I DO think that HT was the father of Henry William - everything seems to match up, and lacking any other Henry Thomas Butler actors at the time in London, the evidence seems compelling.

I suspect HT was not the father of Charles Edward, simply because in late 1871 HT and his family left London and were never based there again.  Having said that, I don't know where HT was in June 1879, when Charles would have been conceived.  He had been performing in South Shields the previous month, and from mid-1880 was based in Hull, but in between I have found no trace of him.

So, my question to you ... have you traced any living descendants of Henry William?  They would be the best bet for proving that HT was the father.  But basically, if descendants of all the three children were to take DNA tests, together with myself, it would show (or disprove) common parentage.

Regarding Henry Thomas Butler, my frustrations with tracking him down can be found at this thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=318087.36

I will also send you a personal message with a biography of him.

Cheers
Tim

9
The Common Room / Re: Emma Deighton, born about 1843, later "Butler"
« on: Monday 11 February 19 03:01 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Jan ... and welcome to RootsChat ... it is a very powerful tool for your family history research, as you have already seen!

Your information is very interesting.  Today I am busy at work, but perhaps this evening I will try to compile all the information we have on Emma, to see where we stand.

But, your husband being (possibly) a g-g-grandson of Henry Thomas Butler, actor, and me also being a g-g-grandson, I believe that a simple DNA test would clearly establish whether the Henry Thomas Butlers are, in fact, one-and-the-same.  Would your husband be willing?

Cheers, Tim

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