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Topics - ard

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Scotland / cryptic OPR records

« on: Tuesday 16 April 19 00:55 BST (UK) »

I downloaded a page that contained a record of my g-g-g-g-grandparent's 1806 marriage in Glasgow. Entries are grouped by dates starting with "Glasgow March 23rd 1806", then March 30th, and followed by the 6th and 13th of April. However, some of the marriage dates in the entries don't actually correspond to their heading. These are usually more detailed, like the two in the March 23rd section. The first is for McDead: Bernard McDEAD, porter in Glasgow & Helen Campbell residenter there. Married 11th of April by M' John Brodie Relief minister in Glasgow. The marriage date for the second is 24th of March.

There are different ministers mentioned in the various detailed entries, some from the "Gaelic Chapel in Glasgow" or elsewhere.

Under the March 30th heading there are 9 entries, about a third of which are detailed, while the others are similar to that of my ancestors: DICK - Ambrose Dick, moulder in Glasgow & Elizabeth Stevenson, Residenter there - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Irregularly. (although, only two entries are followed by dashes and the word "irregularly")

Am I to assume that the date they married was, in fact, March 30th or simply around that time?

I'm a little curious about the word "residenter" too, but mostly it is the implication of the word "irregularly" that I find potentially significant. Would that mean that they were irregular residents or that the marriage was performed irregularly?

Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks in advance!

Kent Completed Lookup Requests / Birth 1821 Woolwich, Kent. Caroline Walter(s)

« on: Monday 21 January 19 00:25 GMT (UK) »

My ggg grandmother Caroline Walters (alternate spellings Walter and Waters) was born in Woolwich (at that time Kent) around 1821.

The backdrop:

By the 1841 census, she was a servant at the Welton le Wold, Lincs rectory. The year and place of birth are consistent in all censuses. At first, I figured she may have gone to Lincolnshire as a young woman but I no longer think this is likely. In 1842 she married William Burton in Welton le Wold. One of the witnesses was Ann Walters. Neither name nor occupation of a father is entered.

To keep a long story shortish, I believe this is the same Ann Walters (b. 1788 Scotland; d. Agnes Ann Walter 1875 Lincs, widow of Thomas Walter, private soldier.) who was the mother of an Elizabeth Walters (b. about 1811, Scotland d. Elizabeth Southern, 1881) and James (b. about 1824 Lincolnshire, d. 1892).

I believe it highly likely that Ann is Ann Binnie who married Thomas Walter, Gunner RA, 1810 Edinburg. They had a daughter Elizabeth there in 1811. Elizabeth had two girls before getting married: Mary Walters (who never married) and Rebecca (Bee). Caroline's granddaughter (my great-grandmother)was a domestic in Rebecca's household for a while. Rebecca's husband was a witness at at least one of Caroline's daughters' marriages and one of Elizabeth's stepsons married another of Caroline' daughters. So it is clear that the two families are linked.

When Rebecca Walters married widower Thomas Southern, her father was entered in the records as Thomas.
When James Walters married widow Mary Ann Robinson, his father was entered as Abraham.

While it seems more than just likely that Ann is related to Caroline, my working hypothesis is that she was Caroline's mother. I speculate that Thomas went with his family to Kent (perhaps stationed in the Royal Artillery there.) This would explain why Caroline would have been born in Woolwich, whether or not Thomas was her father. Then Ann (a widow?) made her way up to Lincolnshire, where James was born (baptism in Little Carton, Lincs in 1825 with only Ann listed as a parent ), and that is where the family stayed.

It would help enormously if I could find some birth or baptism information for Caroline! It would be great to be able to at least establish if Ann was, in fact, her mother, and also who her father was. If it was Thomas, I don't know if the members of the Royal Artillery had their own chapels, or kept their own records.

Any help would be most appreciated!

Ard

London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: 1871 census Bethnal green

« on: Saturday 05 January 19 05:46 GMT (UK) »

Re: the 9000 missing entries... Does anyone know if that situation has changed at all?

I have a look-up request as I have had no luck with some of my Neale relatives, notably an Ann Neale, widow, born about 1824, Cripplegate. In 1861 and later she was in Bethnal Green. She probably still had had some of her children living with her.

Same goes for her sons:
Thomas Edward Neale, b 1849 St. Luke, Finsbury He married in 1871 (Eliza)
William Henry Neale b. about 1844 Bethnal Green (wife, Mary Ann), one or two children in 1871

And just maybe (!) A George Nightingale with a wife Rosetta (nee Neale), possibly a son William b around 1865!

With Much appreciation...
Thank you!

Moderator comment: split from original topic on the 'Completed Board' and relocated

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=17285.0

Lincolnshire Lookup Requests / WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!

« on: Wednesday 14 November 18 01:14 GMT (UK) »

Who is up for some sleuthing?!

I'm really struggling to put some pieces together - I know they fit somehow but ...
My difficulties began with determining the surname Walters that appeared in various records and transcriptions as Walter, Waters, Waiters... I've settled on Walters. Maybe she had a thick accent!

This is what I am working with:

My ancestor Caroline Walters (that is what she signed at her marriage; her husband made his X mark) was apparently born in Woolwich (Kent, later Middlesex, then London) around 1821. She married William Burton in Welton le Wold, Lincolnshire in 1842. There is no entry for her father's name. A witness to the marriage was Ann Walters (X).

In 1841 Caroline "Waters" age 20 was a female servant at the Rectory in Welton le Wold. Her age seems to be accurate as opposed to a rounding off of years.

Although she was born in Woolwich, I am thinking that she had a family Lincolnshire connection before moving there.

The next revelation came when I discovered that, in 1891, her granddaughter (who was my great grandmother Agnes and who appears to have later added Bee and Vere de Vere to her collection of names) worked as a domestic in the household of Henry and Rebecca Bee. I found out that Henry Wetherall Bee was a witness at the 1887 marriage of one of Caroline's daughters, Emma Burton, to George Johnson. More interestingly, it turns out that Rebecca's surname is Walters (Walter or Waters) - she married Henry in 1868. Moreover, according to census information, Rebecca was born in Little Carlton, Lincs. around 1838, and as a child may have lived with an Ann Waters/Waiters (transcription or record errors?) who was from Ireland (1841) or Scotland (1851) and who might have been Rebecca's grandmother (1851). I am also speculating that this could be the same Ann Walters who was a witness at Caroline's wedding... maybe Caroline's mother, even (which could make Rebecca Caroline's niece, I guess).

We also have a Petit Point alphabet sampler that had belonged to my great-grandmother Agnes Annie "Bee" "Vere de Vere" Hoffmann (married name was Neale) that was done by her 'Aunt Bee'. (Or, perhaps she was a cousin of some degree.)

So, tantalizing loose ends and educated speculations abound!

Since I can't locate a birth record for Rebecca (so I don't know who her parents were) and I don't know who the parents of Caroline were either (was she "illegitimate"?) I can't confirm the relationships.

All this is so that I can find the ancestry of Caroline Burton, nee Walters! She is one of my brick walls...

Does anyone have ideas of how I might put the piece of this puzzle together?!

MUCH THANKS!

ard

Essex / Mystery father: John Spurgeon

« on: Sunday 03 September 17 21:09 BST (UK) »

My gg grandfather Henry SMITH married my gg granmother at Halstead 1863, both residing at Mount Pleasant. I have not seen a copy of the marriage certificate but I think it may have been difficult to read.

Emma's maiden name (since she was "single" at marriage) was something along the lines of Whelms, Welham, Wilkins, Williams, or something else beginning with a W.)

Her father's name, however, was John Spurgeon, at the time of the marriage deceased, occupation "soldier."

Note: banns read 21 apr 1863 she is given as Welkens?

16 MAY 1863 Halstead, Essex, England (maybe Trinity Church)

The only thing I have linking Spurgeon with the above surnames is:

1851 Halstead, Essex Mt Pleasant 146

Stephen Spurgeon head 70 Shoemaker b.
Mary Spurgeon wife
Fred Spurgeon son um 19 labourer
Lucy Spurgeon dau um 21 Employed in factory
Maria Whelms lodger um 24 Employed in factory
Emma Whelms " 7 Employed in factory
John Whelms " 4 Employed in factory

But I would need more to link Emma Whelms to John Spurgeon!

Any ideas?

Much thanks

London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / NEALE in Shoreditch and Bethnal Green

« on: Wednesday 29 June 16 18:25 BST (UK) »

Hello... ironically the line from which I inherited my surname is the one I have the most trouble following back! From what I can tell my NEALE forefathers were amongst the working poor of Middlesex... I image them as cockney speaking real life players leading lives lik Dickens characters: book folders, makers of trimmings, braids and matchboxes... etc.

I would really like to find out more about my ggg grandfather William NEALE and his ancestry.

My great-grandfather, who apparently did not like to speak of his family past, immigrated to Canada after both his parents had died (within three years of each other) in the Bethnal Green Workhouse. Tracing my great great grandfather Henry Neale's story through the censuses and other records, I get the sense of a man who was did not settle, often changing relationships, work, living quarters, and even marital statuses (sometimes M, sometimes U). He seems to have had a child from his first marriage to Martha Brunker, but what happened to them, I do not know.

Henry's father, William, was born C 1792 (49 in 1841). He married Harriet Watts 05 AUG 1816 Spitalfields Christ Church, Tower Hamlets, Stepney, London, England. Harriett was a widow by 1851.

William and Harriett had at least 4 children. I think they mostly lived in Shoreditch while he was alive, although family members seemed to have generally migrated into Bethnal Green. The most successful and stable of their children seems to have been the first, William Charles, who married Ann Lawrence (they had about 8 children).

According to various records (children's births, marriages, wife's death certificate) William was a trim maker, a "gentleman" and/or a "mariner". William likely died in the interval between the 1841 and 1851 censuses. Freebmd has quite a few deaths registered for a William Neale during this period, but which if any apply to mine?!

I don't know even how to go about finding a birth record for my William, as I have no information on his parents names (no scottish naming patterns to help me out here!) According to what I have found, his son's names were William Charles, Edward Thomas, James and Henry (Harriett's father's name was Thomas). Unfortunately, the information I have for his marriage record does not include a father's name, athough I can't be sure since I don't have a copy of the actual record.

According to the 1841 census, when he and Harriett were living in Shoreditch (*Stepney, Tower Hamlets), it was marked that he was born in the county.

Any Suggestions?

Kent Lookup Requests / Re: Look-up request: Birth in Woolwich Kent

« on: Sunday 07 September 14 01:57 BST (UK) »

Hello,

I've tried a few angles but just might not have enough information to find on my own: I am trying to find birth information for Caroline Walters*.

A direct ancestor of mine Caroline (*could also be Waters or Walter but I'm betting on Walters???) was born, according to several census (she lived to be over 90!) in 1821 WOOLWICH KENT (seems more likely than London which is more general).

By 20 she was a domestic servant in Welton-le-Wold Lincolnshire where she later married married William Burton. A witness at her wedding was Ann WALTERS (her sister maybe?).

I don't know if it a coincidence but in 1891 her granddaugter Agnes was a domestic in the Bee Household in Louth - I think family - and Mrs. Bee was Rebecca nee Walter, perhaps a niece (ok I know I am pulling at straws here) Agnes added the name Bee to her names and named her eldest son Walter.

I'd like to see if I can find something on Caroline's ancestry!

Much thanks to anyone who might have access to relevant reccords!

What I have so far on her:
1841
The 1841 within the household of Godfrey Egremont, clergy man.

HO107 648 11 13
Caroline Waters 20 F(emale).S(ervant).
The Rectory, Welton le Wold
Godfrey Egremont 65 clergyman N
Maria 65 N
Charlotte 35 N
Eliza Bucknall 25 FS Y
Caroline Waters 20 FS Y
Elizabeth Shaw 20 FS Y
William Headland 15 MS Y

married 16 Aug 1842 in Welton Le Wold
the marriage register from Welton Le Wold which does not list her father or his occupation. Caroline was listed as a servant living in Welton Le Wold and a witness to the wedding was an Ann Walters.

1851, (next door to William Burton sr)
William Burton, Head, Married, age 36, Agricultural Labourer, BornWelton le Wold.
Caroline Burton, Wife, Married, age 30 Born Middlesex London.
Plus 4 children, Thirza 7, Mary 5, Moses 3, Elizabeth 7 months, all born Welton le Wold.

1861 census
Caroline Burton age 40 b. Middlesex

1871 census Welton-le-Wold Lincolnshire
RG10/3404 ED 32 Folio 98 Page 3
BURTON Charlotte(Caroline has been crossed out Charlotte written above it) Wife 50 Mar b London

1872 White's Gazetteer Mrs Caroline Burton, shopkeeper

1875 PO Directory lists Mrs William Burton as a Shopkeeper in Welton le Wold

1876 Kelly's Directory Mrs William Burton, shopkeeper

1881 census The Square
Welton Le Wold, Lincoln, England
Caroline BURTON Head W Female 60 London, London, Middlesex, England Grocer

Joseph BURTON, b. Grainsby 1848, Head
Sarah BURTON, b. Binbrook 1852, wife of Joseph
Lizzie BURTON, b. Well 1874, dau of Joseph
Edith BURTON, b. Bonthorpe 1876, dau. of Joseph
Emma BURTON, b. Welton 1862, servant at rectory

1882 White's Mrs Caroline Burton, shopkeeper

1891 census Caroline was listed as being from Woolwich: Kent

1896 Mrs Caroline BURTON Dressmaker

1901 Caroline Burton 80 b. Woolwich
Living On Own Means

Down / Ferguson in Holywood

« on: Wednesday 20 April 11 16:48 BST (UK) »

Looking for ideas!

Anyone know how can I use the following information to expand my research options:

Samuel FERGUSON . Holywood of Walmer Terrace, Holywood; leased a house, yard & small garden in 1863 from Andrew Cowan

I think this may be my gg grandfather.

From what I've been able to find so far:

I believe he was born around 1833 and that his father's name was Alexander Ferguson.

I believe he married Agnes Boyd in 1858 and that her father's name was James Boyd.
She may have been born around 1839 in or around Annahilt.

They appear to have married at Magheradrool but their children may have been born in the parish of Holywood between 1861 and 1870. My g grandfather James had Strandtown as his place of birth (ref: 1901 scottish census)

The IGI only has recorded the two girls births (Agnes in 1864 and Annie in 1870) I think their at least one of their children, Agnes, may have died before they left Ireland. While in Ireland, I think they belonged to the anglican church but later switched to presbyterian.

Samuel died in Workington, England where he had laboured at the Ironworks.

I think they left Ireland sometime after 1870 and either went to Scotland first or directly to England.

With the dirth of surviving Irish records, it seems a difficult to make headway!

All suggestions welcome!

London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / 1871 census NEALE Bethnal Green?

« on: Thursday 28 October 10 17:53 BST (UK) »

I have had no luck in finding this family in the 1871 census and am wondering if the surname is somehow unlegible or mistranscribed.
Or perhaps some of the census records are missing? If anyone can crack the puzzle - I'd be really grateful!

Perhaps there is a way of looking up the census by address?

Edward Thomas Neale b. 1849 (bap Saint Thomas Charterhouse, Finsbury) married in Oct. 1871. His address at the time was put down as 315(? bit hard to decipher) Bethnal Green rd. so I am wondering if that had been his address at the time of the census as well.

Edward Thomas may have been living with his mother and siblings at that time - I cannot find them either, at any rate. His father William Charles was noted as deceased at the time of the marriage in October but I don't know when exactly he died - he was living in 1861. I also don't if all of his siblings were still living in 1871 but potentially here are the other family members that I cannot locate in the same census!

Ann Neale (mother) b~1824 Cripplegate or Bethnal Green (it changes)
Rosetta b~1847 St Leonards Shoreditch (about 24)
Charles b~1852 St Leonards Shoreditch (about 19)
Catherine b~1860 Bethnal Green? (about 11)
James b~1863 (about 8 )
Geroge b~1867 St Leonards Shoreditch (about 4 )

much thanks,
ard