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Messages - iforani

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Thanks, Rhonda, I don't expect you to rush into doing this research. I do appreciate all that you do and all that rootschat researchers do and understand that it is done in your own time. No pressure. It would be great to know who Muriel Annie's parents were (supposedly Eliza Emma Cooper and William Charles Smith) with dna results revealing that her parents were definitely in the (2) Smith families and Cooper family....but to avoid confusion in this thread we should probably focus on William Smith and who his parents were?
As mentioned previously, William Charles/Peter Smith's documents (his marriage and his children's bc's) indicate that he was born in Brisbane and this was backed up by an early anecdote from my mother who said that he had lived at Petrie Terrace, Brisbane when he was young.
Hurworth, I had Mum's dna tested with ancestry.com.au. I have uploaded her dna to a global database but I haven't yet discovered how to interpret this. I must explore this option further, thanks!! will focus on this on the weekend and contact my cousin who is quite proficient with interpreting dna data.
Thanks!

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Thanks, JM, I understand why you asked me to do this.  It can save time without replicating information and previous research that dedicated rootschatters have done but some of the previous information that I added has been discounted by the dna tests (such as the possibility that William Smith may have been born at Drayton and the son of William/Thomas Charrington and Matilda (no dna links to that family. ):) :) :) Deb

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for Rhonda

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Thanks, Judith, JM and Ros. I didn't wish to link to any other posts as this tangled web is tangled enough already. I just had a private message from Rhonda who must have read this and is trying to untangle who Mary Ann Smith aka Muriel Annie Stanley was (my great grandmother and the daughter of Eliza Emma Cooper and unknown Smith. I think it will only lead to more confusion. Ros, the William Smith who died in Granville was the same man who married Eliza Emma Cooper but there is no new info on his dc other than the further confusion that he was William Charles Smith for the first few births of his children then William Peter Smith named for children born later and on his death certificate. I can answer questions if anyone is prepared to take this quest on. It's one that I've been tackling for years and as I said, was made even more confusing after dna matches came through. I will look at the dc's for the Thomas Smiths but I'm not 100% sure that the year/place of death and dc for one of the Thomas Smiths (as given on ancestry trees) match that person, just to add to the confusion; otherwise this is where I would have started, cross matching the dc's. Deb

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Posting these for benefit of Rhonda who sent me a personal message on this topic.

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Thanks, Girl Guide. It most certainly is a tangled web!! I have certificates for the man named William Charles/Peter Smith including his marriage, death and children's birth certificates but these add no new information as to his parents apart from the fact that he was born about 1845 supposedly in Brisbane, Queensland. I haven't looked for certificates for the Thomas Smiths both of whom supposedly came from the UK. I'll take your advice and move this to the Australia board. Thanks!  :) :) Deb PS I have done two separate trees for them on paper but they are in no way linked (yet I am dna connected to both of them and the link isn't via the partners!!).

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 :) Hi I am hoping that rootschat experts may help me unravel a brick wall that is puzzling me even moreso now that Mum's dna test results add new people to the mix.
My mother's maternal grandmother was born supposedly as Mary Ann Smith in 1868 in Sydney yet as I have posted elsewhere previously she used the alias of Muriel Annie (Stanley) when she married. Her parents were supposedly Eliza Emma Cooper and William Charles (or Peter) Smith (born 1845 in Qld died 1912 at Granville); William gave his name on most of the birth certificates as William Charles and his son was named Charles William yet when he died his name was given as William Peter Smith. I have looked far and wide but have found no record of his birth or clues to his parents (none given by his certificates apart from the 1845 guestimate of birth date and place of birth as Brisbane).

Mum has close dna links to the Cooper family and there are close physical resemblances to the Cooper family. Strangely though the dna match is higher to Mum's Cooper (great grandmother's siblings descendants) than to her own grandmother's siblings descendants. This lead me to suspect that Mum's grandmother, being the eldest child, may have been only a half sibling to her siblings (different mother or father), however both the Smith and Cooper families are dna connected.
I believed that I had discovered the 4th cousin Smith link when a granddaughter of a Daisy Smith (born 1889, died 1950 at Warwick, parents Thomas Cobham Russell Smith born 1861 died 1928 Qld and Marian Wright born 1862 died 1932 Mama Creek, Qld, Thomas Cobham Russell Smith's parents being Thomas Smith born 1819 Middlesex, died 1891 Qld and Hannah/Anna Russell, Marian Wright's parents being Thomas and Ann Wright. This person dna matches to Mum's grandmother's siblings' descendants as well which validates the Smith link. The other names mentioned don't appear in Mum's family. HOWEVER another match emerged of a man who was a 4th cousin and he is descended from a Mary Ann Smith (died 1874 in Qld) wife of a Thomas Forder. She was a sister of William Benjamin Smith (born 1845 died 1928 at Wee Waa, NSW). Their parents were Thomas Smith born supposedly 1808 and Mary Ann Nelson born about 1816.

Now I have several theories, one possibility is that the two Thomas Smiths are the same person (bigamously married to Mary Ann Nelson and Anna Russell). Another is that a male Cooper (sibling of Eliza Emma Cooper had a child with Mary Ann Smith who was a sibling of William Benjamin Smith and that this child was adopted by Eliza Emma and William Charles Smith. Another was that either a sister of Eliza's or Eliza herself became pregnant to William Benjamin Smith who may have been a cousin of William Charles Smith. The latter is my preferred theory for the following reasons. When mum's great grandparents got married they were married at Wee Waa (yet she lived at Parramatta), why travel all this way out west? Also William Benjamin Smith lived at Narrabri then at Wee Waa and on one occasion he was recorded in a census as living in the same street (possibly visiting same house) in Parramatta as William Charles and Eliza Smith. He was a grazier when he died (he had married a woman named Mary Agnes Hurley but Mum's grandmother was born before this pair married).
I hope that anyone reading this can unravel the picture that I am trying to paint. I have seen family trees of William Benjamin Smith so I don't need any more details of his family, but I do desperately need help trying to link these two Smith families (and I do believe the links is with the Smiths) that are dna matched. Please help as I am pulling my hair out and have spent hours trying to find a common denominator. Thanks! Deb

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 :D :D :D ;D ;D Thank you so much. Rootschat's restores never disappoint. Do I have the permission to repost these restores for my sisters and my cousins? All of the children of Gordon and Ethel are now deceased, most lived into their nineties, including my father and had rich lives.
Thank you John, what a lovely restore, enhancing the vibrancy of the photo and thank you so much for dating this (1919) a detail that I had missed, an important detail as this confirms that these two children were the eldest two, John Lambert McKay and Ethel McKay (Tot). Great work! I love the way you have restored the chair too! Carol, as ever your work is just beautiful. I especially like the way you have restored my grandmother's face as well as the two children. It was a shame that the photo was marked; she was a lovely gentle woman I have heard, who was adored by all of her children and grandchildren as well as extended family. Thank you for restoring her gentle face. My grandparents used to have lovely parties and family were invited; they used to play Santa Claus to people who had poorer circumstances and their house was always open to visitors for meals, my Dad recalling that Nana would just add more to the pot of stew! Gadget, you have done a great job with these two restores, thank you so much. What a wonderful job you have done to my grandfather especially. The clothes look much better and more real. I love the vignette, frames the photo so well and gives the family a soft glow, lovely! It is beautiful of each of them. Pat, a big thank you to you as well for giving us another dimension of our grandparents and my uncle and aunt. Your restore is close to the original and you have removed all the damage to the photo, this is  much appreciated. My grandparents were born in the Blayney/Hobbys Yard area but moved to Sydney. Yes, John, they were country people (boots). Thank you everyone for these beautiful restores, so much appreciated and as ever, cherished and will be shared with your permission? The bottom corners of the photo were messy. Thank you all for tidying these up and highlighting the flowers etc.  :) Deb

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Possible but unlikely. Different shape face, ears, nose, chin size, eyes. Nose of the older man is more pointed. They have puffiness under the eyes but this is the only similarity that I can see.

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