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Messages - dtcoulson

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London and Middlesex / Re: One man, two birth records
« on: Monday 29 July 19 07:39 BST (UK)  »
This is more than two sons with the same three-part name.

This is two sons born within the same 3-mile circle to mothers with the same first and second names born the same year (plus or minus one) in the same town. There are no overlapping census records, i.e where both families are present. 

I agree with you that obtaining the two certs is going to advance the matter but it won't settle the matter. If it turns out that the parents' names are different despite what the censuses show, then I have to consider how it could be that the 1891 census is throwing up a different name for the mother to what is on the birth certificate. And if it turns out that the parents' names are the same in every respect then I have to consider why one family only appeared in 1891 and not in earlier censuses, and why the other family conveniently disappeared in the same year.

On the matter of speculation, there is no harm in that! I'm asking if people have seen things like this before, i.e. whether people have ever seen GRO records that are wrong, or whether GRO has ever recorded multiple birth dates for the same person. It's just learning from others by comparing experience, and there's nothing wrong in that.

I've had a good run with Rootschat over the years and have benefited mightily from the advice of its members. Sounds like it might be time for me to move on, though. I didn't come here for an argument over research strategy.  I actually thought you might find the question intriguing because it is so unusual.

I'll leave the page open for a day if anyone feels they have anything to add.


London and Middlesex / Re: One man, two birth records
« on: Monday 29 July 19 04:43 BST (UK)  »
All my data for this fellow has come via the internet. I don't have actual birth certs for him.

The GRO lists births in 1854 and 1863 (ie, civil regn).

Interestingly, there appears to be a parish record of a birth in 1854 but not one for 1863.
The record can be found online via FamilySearch.
(see preceding post for details).

Is it possible that HJS's mother needed a birth cert for him for some process when he was 9 years old, and that the document's production date got picked up accidentally as his actual birth date?


London and Middlesex / Re: One man, two birth records
« on: Monday 29 July 19 03:52 BST (UK)  »
From previous research:

Henry James Smith
born 8 June 1854
baptised in April 1855 at St Leonard, Shoreditch.
Parents: William (gentleman) and Martha. 
Abode: 2 Hamilton Cottages, Dalston.

London and Middlesex / One man, two birth records
« on: Monday 29 July 19 03:48 BST (UK)  »
Hi team,

very tentatively this time, I return to the Smith clan in London.
We have discussed this family about three times before and collected a mountain of data,
so please don't get carried away chasing people through the censuses. We already have the data.

This new question is very specific:

How does Henry James Smith happen to have two separate birth records at GRO?

Details as follows:

1854 - Born Henry James Smith in Shoreditch, parents William Smith and Martha May.
1861 - Westminster: "Jas" born Dalston, 1855, with mother Martha born Brimpton 1823.
1863 - Born Henry James Smith in Newington, MMN = May.
1871 - Newington: Henry Smith born Dalston, 1855, with mother Martha born Brimpton 1824.
1881 - Newington: Henry J Smith born London, 1855, with mother Martha born "Brompton" 1824
1891 - Newington: Henry Smith born "Darlston" 1863, with mother Martha born Brimpton 1823.

After that the trail becomes ambiguous.
Several possible deaths for Henry but no obvious census appearances in 1901 or 1911.

Interestingly, the 1854-Henry appears in censuses for 1871 and 1881 but not in 1891,
and for the 1863-Henry the opposite is true. There are no censuses in which both appear.
In all cases, the description for the mother is identical.

Either we are looking at two families with extraordinary similarities or we are looking at one family for which the son's birth year switches from 1854 to 1863, leaving everything else the same. I could easily accept that the stated age for HJS in 1891 was written incorrectly, either by accident or by deception, but then we are faced with a civil birth record matching the erroneous age written in the 1891 census. What does this mean?

In summary:
* Are we looking at two Henry James Smiths or one?
* Are there circumstances whereby a 9-year-old boy could get a brand new birth certificate?
* If the second birth registration is fiction, what would drive a person to do such a thing, and how easily could this be done in the nineteenth century?


Essex / Re: William Day - born 1795-ish Shelley Essex
« on: Saturday 13 July 19 04:53 BST (UK)  »
Hard to say without more data.

Just wondering how much data is actually invisible to us today.

is it possible that there are whole families of people named Day living in this part of the country circa 1795? Or is the parish baptism data to be considered a complete list of all people born in this area?

If there are great massive absences in the data then there is not much we can achieve.


Essex / Re: William Day - born 1795-ish Shelley Essex
« on: Saturday 13 July 19 03:46 BST (UK)  »
Thanks for the advice Annette.
I independently arrived at the same person, William of Theydon Mount.

There is a family of people surnamed Day in this area, derived from parents John Day and Mary Savill.
The first kids start in Chipping Ongar and later are born in Theydon Mount.

Nestled among them is this unique record, ie, William Day (1793) son of William Day, yet there are no other children in the region attached to the same father. I am not inclined to disbelieve facts that don't fit but in this case I wonder if it is possible that the record is wrong; ie, that William's dad is actually John Day and that he is a member of that same family?


Essex / William Day - born 1795-ish Shelley Essex
« on: Friday 12 July 19 14:02 BST (UK)  »
hello all,

I'm trying to help a friend get past a roadblock.
His ancestor is William Day, born 1795 in Shelley Essex (appears on a census record as Shelby).
He married a woman (Mary Baker) 20 years younger than himself in 1833, in Great Burstead.   

The challenge is to identify his parents.

I see that there are a great many military records for his name in the period 1810-1820 or so.
It's a common name but it is possible he is in here. There is a chance that one of these records might positively identify him and give the name of his parents.

He was a bachelor when he married (according to a record found on FreeReg), at age 38.
This might be explained by him being in the military during his young adult years.

Anyway, am hoping you might find something.

-David C

Durham / Re: occupancy of High House Monkton 1920s & 1930s.
« on: Sunday 07 July 19 02:08 BST (UK)  »
Whoops... and before we get too carried away with this... here is a previous discussion we had, a year ago, in which the 1923 tenants of High House were named.

I would still like to have an idea of when the Mcintosh family moved into High House.

Durham / Re: occupancy of High House Monkton 1920s & 1930s.
« on: Sunday 07 July 19 01:48 BST (UK)  »
Perhaps the house was owned by one of these families and let out to the other?
Not sure. But if related families live in the same house in different decades it strikes me as an unusual coincidence and may tell us something about the relationship between these families.

Tracked down Elizabeth Minnie's misspelled birth record

Births Mar 1889   (>99%)
Waster    Elizabeth Minnie        S. Shields

She was Minnie on her marriage record:

Marriages Jun 1914   (>99%)
Waister    Minnie    McIntosh    S.Shields

1939 reg gives her birth date as Jan 29 1889.

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