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Messages - hurworth

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She is full age and states that her father is John White, carpenter,

In 1851 and 1861 her approx year of birth is 1819 and she gives her place of birth as Marylebone and then St Marylebone (for some reason her husband has been recorded as Thomas in 1861).

I thought finding Elizabeth in London would be nigh impossible, so I've never really tried.  But there is a baptism for an Elizabeth White, parents John and Eleanor at St Marylebone on 11 April 1819 all it says for his occupation is "Trade".  It says that for many of the fathers on that page.

This same couple may also be the parents of Charles, 2 Sept 1822 (John is "Trade" again) and Emily, baptised 21 Sept 1825 at a year old (occupation Carpenter - some others on page are "Trade") - all baptised at St Marylebone.

So, IF this is Elizabeth, am I deluded in thinking they might be John White and Eleanor Burges(s) who married at St Mary, Newington on 24 Jan 1814, and then had a son John Alfred White baptised at St Saviour, Southwark on 17 Nov 1816?  Other possible children are:
Ann Adelaide White, baptised 3 Oct 1830 at Saint Saviour, Southwark, Surrey, England
Maria White, bap 25 Nov 1832 at St Saviour - John is a blindmaker.
Thomas, born 26 Apr 1833 (died before 1841 census I think) and George born 4 Jul 1835.  They were both baptised on 11 Nov 1835 and John is a blind maker.

Eleanor is a widow in 1841. 
Possibly this is John's death:
WHITE, JOHN       52     Order
GRO Reference: 1838  M Quarter in SAINT OLAVES UNION SOUTHWARK  Volume 04  Page 367

Is this all sounding too far-fetched?  I usually roll my eyes when I see trees with people dashing across the country .  The Watkins didn't name any children John or Eleanor (but they didn't have any daughters).  And what would have taken Elizabeth all the way to Forest of Dean on her own?

I haven't found Emily in later records and I may have a sighting of Charles in 1841 working as a carpenter in London but not staying with his family.

I welcome your thoughts.

The Common Room / Re: Errors in trees - letting off steam!
« on: Monday 15 January 18 06:53 GMT (UK)  »
Maybe the two Helens were cousins and the match comes from their grandparents?

We're related to our Helen Bain on her maternal side, so we're still looking for the connection.

The Common Room / Re: Errors in trees - letting off steam!
« on: Monday 15 January 18 00:01 GMT (UK)  »
I thought I'd worked out a connection to a DNA match.  My ancestor had a first cousin in Old Machar called Helen Bain. Helen had been tricky to follow once she reached adulthood because her village had several Helen Bains of a similar age.

One of them married a man with a fairly distinctive name, and a descendant of this couple appeared as a fairly close DNA match - looked like the connection could be around 4-5 generations back, which would fit.  I was waiting to hear whether he had any records of his ancestors but curiosity got the better of me so I topped up my credits at ScotlandsPeople and got the record of Helen Bain's marriage, as I was pretty sure I had the right person.  The age was out by a bit but I thought perhaps she was trying to hide the fact that she'd married a younger man.

NO!!! It's not her.  Wrong Helen Bain!  Luckily my second guess was correct.  She married a railway stoker called James Catto and they headed off to Glasgow. 

Anyway, I sent the marriage record for the OTHER Helen Bain to her descendant who is a DNA match.  Still none the wiser at this stage as to how we're related!

The Common Room / Re: Errors in trees - letting off steam!
« on: Sunday 14 January 18 21:18 GMT (UK)  »
Ever heard the saying "online trees are only fit for dogs to p*ss on!"

What a shocking suggestion.  It might short-circuit.

The Common Room / Re: Errors in trees - letting off steam!
« on: Sunday 14 January 18 20:54 GMT (UK)  »
I managed to confirm who the paternal family were of an ancestor who was born in the early 1800s.  Through her paternal grandmother she descended from quite an old family and some of her cousins were fairly well known.  So, I put the information out there.

It's the subsequent grafting on of branches to this family that irks me.  People have grabbed the info, found two people with the same name and assumed they're the same person, simply because they're both from Scotland and their fathers had the same first name.  In some cases I have wills that prove that David or whoever isn't the same David who pops up in North America. It's the tree hints at Ancestry that cause the problem.  People need to be more critical when they look at tree hints before they copy the tree.

I've made headway with a different branch and it isn't on any public tree.  It's only on private trees.   I haven't done the work that takes this branch WAY back, but I managed to contact a descendant who has researched the family and confirmed our link was two brothers born in the early to mid 1700s.  I'd rather keep it private unless the distant cousin who has done most of the hard graft decides to make it public, but also I don't want all this tree grafting to occur.

The distant cousin has been researching for decades because there's an extinct title in Scotland, and he thinks we could be descendants.  In his case the descent would be through his patrilineal line.  The family certainly was related in some way - we know that from witnesses at baptisms, tutors in wills and other records that they were close. 


Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing / Re: No DNA matches for great-grandfather's surname
« on: Thursday 11 January 18 21:23 GMT (UK)  »
Sometimes there just aren't many cousins or descendants who have tested.

There were no matches at all from a particular line at FamilyTreeDNA.  I started to worry a little about that.  Then I transferred to MyHeritage and immediately found three "cousins" - one descended from my tester's grandfather and two descended from two of the grandfather's sisters.

Since then a diffferent relative has tested at Ancestry and recently two more matches from this family have tested.  They descend from a brother of the grandfather. 

It was the same story for another line, but that was a maternal line and generally you can be pretty sure that your mother must be your mother, right?  Well, apart from the birth certificate that has our maternal ancestor registered as her grandparent's daughter, but we know the real story and and her "sister" was her mother.  There's still only two matches from that branch of the family and they only tested very recently.

So sometimes it takes a while before anyone pops up.

Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing / Re: so are the results of test worthwhile
« on: Thursday 11 January 18 10:04 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks, hurworth, you make it sound quite promising.

Are you in the UK?

No.  My gtgtgt-grandfather married in Scotland and emigrated to the Antipodes a short time later. 

The first DNA match descended from his half-sibling lives in Canada.

Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing / Re: so are the results of test worthwhile
« on: Wednesday 10 January 18 19:04 GMT (UK)  »
It's possible you might find him.

Several gtgt-grandchildren of my gtgtgt-grandfather have tested.  He had a tenancy on a farm in Scotland and was the father of my gtgt-grandfather.   They weren't married.  He is named as the father in the parish minutes and ordered to pay to support his child.  We didn't know what happened to him after that but a family historian had noticed that someone with the same name married three or four years later about 20 miles away and took out a tenancy on a farm there.

One day a match came up that matched several of our branch.  She was a VERY good match to one of them, a poor match to another and a moderately good match to the poor match's sister.  The new match was descended from the man who had married three or four years after our ancestor was born.  Since then the new match's mother has tested and she's a better match.

It was helped by the fact that our illegitimate ancestor and his wife had a huge family, so there's lots of descendants to test and more of them are popping up all the time.

Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing / Re: so are the results of test worthwhile
« on: Tuesday 02 January 18 11:25 GMT (UK)  »
It's been very worthwhile for me.   

Quite a few official records (death certificates and marriage certificates) for my relatives are either unintentionally incorrect, deliberately incorrect, or simply missing useful information.  Records that could help with the paper trail had been exhausted.  I had hunches, but something else that would verify my hypotheses (but which conflicted with official records) would be great.

For two lines now DNA has verified who two sets of gtgtgt-grandparents were.

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