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Messages - David Winther

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1
Antrim / Re: Charters Family - Antrim
« on: Saturday 10 December 16 15:54 GMT (UK)  »

... Hmmm...on that marriage cert it lists him as a Private with the 7/8 Battalion, Royal Irish Fusiliers. Possible that the marriage ended with his death in the war?


Another piece to the puzzle. Just a reminder that when George Smith married Janetta Elizabeth Kirkpatrick in 1917, their given address was 10 Constance Street.

On the wedding certificate of Robert Winslow Charters and Janetta Elizabeth Kirkpatrick, 8 APR 1922, it lists his father as "James" Charters as opposed to the suspected "Robert" Charters...  Of course the fates conspire the poke you in the eye as the maiden name of the bridegroom's mother was mistakenly filled with the brides mother's name (Catherine Such) and then crossed out with no correction made...

It also lists his and her religion as Presbyterian.

http://interactive.ancestry.com/7921/ONMS932_630-0173/1052639?backurl=http://person.ancestry.com/tree/68041183/person/190002108300/facts/citation/680188947329/edit/record

2
Antrim / Re: Charters Family - Antrim
« on: Saturday 10 December 16 05:43 GMT (UK)  »

... This sounds like a mother who really wanted to get in touch with her children.


Yes, the notices ran from 9 December 1922 to 24 February 1923.

During this entire process, I'm struck wondering WHY Mary gave up her children? Was it purely for financial reasons? Being a widow I'm sure she was in dire need of assistance. A heartbreaking story really.

One comment that my Aunt made was that my GG tried to hide anything in her life that said "Charters". My uncle Jack wasn't adopted by my great-grandfather until just before he left for WWII. He changed his last name to Stephens when that happened, but his high school graduation diploma said Charters on it, but apparently he went by Stephens prior to being adopted. When my GG was asked about his father in Ireland, she apparently became very angry and would not talk about it, simply insisting that his adoptive father was his father.

3
Antrim / Re: Charters Family - Antrim
« on: Saturday 10 December 16 05:14 GMT (UK)  »
Now something speculative, a marriage in Belfast in 1917 between a George Smith and a Janetta Elizabeth Kirkpatrick of 10 Constance Street, the bride's father given as Hugh Kirkpatrick:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09750/5538455.pdf

Intriguingly, the 1918 Belfast street directory shows the following entry for Constance Street: 10. Kirkpatrick, H. W. (possibly Hugh Warner?)

http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/ccomplete1918_b.htm

The 1920 Liverpool-Quebec passenger list and arrivals form (mentioned @ reply #27) was for Janet / Janetta Kirkpatrick and stated that she was single, so the 1917 marriage is perhaps just a co-incidence of names, just worth noting for now until it can be ruled in or out.

Hmmm...on that marriage cert it lists him as a Private with the 7/8 Battalion, Royal Irish Fusiliers. Possible that the marriage ended with his death in the war? 

4
Antrim / Re: Charters Family - Antrim
« on: Friday 09 December 16 23:30 GMT (UK)  »
If I didn't mention before, yes, the David Winther tree on ancestry is my tree. I hope you can all see it. My Great-Grandmother Elizabeth (Charters) Stephens is my mothers, mothers, mother.

I also noticed the repeated use of Robert Charters as a name as well. I think that the 1 Oct 1840 one is the husband of Mary as it also matches up with the 1901 census showing him to be 60 years old living on Charlotte Street in Belfast. Hence I don't think the dairyman Robert Charters that died at age 47 is him...but who IS this? The 1901 census shows him as a clerk.

The Robert Charters and Charter family we appear to be talking about seem to center around Clonbroney, Co. Longford. The Tithe and Applotment books show a Robert Charters with 5 entries in 1825 in Cavan, Etherland, and 3 in Ballinalea, Clonbroney, Co, Longford. I have to make an assumption that this is a father or more likely a grandfather the our Robert Charters born 1840 and father to my GG. Again, the 1901 Census show Co, Longford as birthplace to both Robert and Mary.

 http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/results.jsp?surname=Charters&firstname=Robert&county=Longford&parish=&townland=&search=Search

The Enumerator's Abstract from the 1901 census also shows them as 1 being Roman Catholic (Robert Charters) and 2 Church of Ireland. I suspect this resulted in the delayed baptisms for the children. The other children list no religious preference. The family literally lived in the shadow of St Malachy so I'm sure it was also convenient for the family to worship there as well. I know my Great-Grandmother was not Catholic when she lived in the states *not to say that she might not have been raised one).

There is so much new information here for me to try and process. Again, I can not thank you all for the help! Looking into my family is something that I had want to do for a long time. With mysteries on both my mothers and fathers side...well let's just say I have had so much fun trying to unravel them!

Are any of you good a Danish lines?! That is the other mystery I face!  ;D 


5
Antrim / Re: Charters Family - Antrim
« on: Friday 09 December 16 03:30 GMT (UK)  »
I think I have found Robert Charters baptism info via the Rootsireland.ie site in Longford County. A 24 Oct 1840 birthdate fits the census numbers.

If you have the subscrption: http://longford.rootsireland.ie/view_detail.php?recordid=1355710&type=bch&recordCentre=longford&page=1

Shows his father was also Robert Charters with his mother Frances Charters. With my grandmother's sister being named Frances as well I take this as a good sign.

6
Antrim / Re: Charters Family - Antrim
« on: Friday 09 December 16 02:59 GMT (UK)  »
Robert Charters, age 46, dairyman, died 10 Feb.1903 at 2 Mornington St., Belfast- daughter Kate was informant-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05673/4598233.pdf

So, did the story about parents get mixed up and was it the father who died and mother couldn't look after the children?

This doesn't fit with the 1901 census information that lists him as being 60 here: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Windsor_Ward/Charlotte_Street/975083/

Now, it is very possible that his age is listed incorrectly. And he could have still died first when the children were young. It lists his occupation as "Clark" any idea what that might be? I assume it is a clerk.

BUT it also lists his and Mary's birthplace as County Longford! I hadn't noticed that earlier!

7
Antrim / Re: Charters Family - Antrim
« on: Friday 09 December 16 02:45 GMT (UK)  »
Birth certificate for Elizabeth Charters 18 June 1896, 31 Craigmore st., parents Robert & Mary (Glancey)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02164/1820179.pdf

The majority of the information I inherited from my Uncle Stephens about my "Grammy's" back story was on a handwritten envelope that she had listed the children her siblings had and also had:

Kilarney
  -------------
     Charters
      -----------
  Belfast


Clancey - (then a very hard to read word, which I think now must say "Mother"

(But the word "clancey" is very clear, so I assume that the "Glancey" stated above in the birth cert should really read "Clancey"

My Aunt Stephens also had written in some of the information "Lived in County Cork? ? ? ? ?"


 

8
Antrim / Re: Charters Family - Antrim
« on: Friday 09 December 16 02:12 GMT (UK)  »
Robert Charters, age 46, dairyman, died 10 Feb.1903 at 2 Mornington St., Belfast- daughter Kate was informant-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05673/4598233.pdf

So, did the story about parents get mixed up and was it the father who died and mother couldn't look after the children?

I had the same thought! It could be entirely possible!
 

9
Antrim / Re: Charters Family - Antrim
« on: Friday 09 December 16 02:05 GMT (UK)  »
Children of William James Kirkpatrick & Kathleen/Kate Charters-
Robert Winslow (1905) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01765/1695042.pdf
William James (1907) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1907/01701/1674763.pdf
Janetta (1908) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01658/1661346.pdf
Charlotte (1910) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01574/1634501.pdf
Stuart (1912)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01494/1607638.pdf

Stuart's 1912 birth gives father's residence as Canada!

Added- marriage of William Kirkpatrick & Kathleen Charters (1904)- gives her father as dairyman-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01494/1607638.pdf

Kathleen G. Kirkpatrick died 1950 Detroit, Michigan
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KFWP-7V9

Yes, the Kirpatricks (Kathleen Charters) are my great-grandmother's sister. They do live in Canada. Kathleen was the olderst child so she must have moved to Canada well before my GG left Ireland.

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