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Messages - WillowG

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1
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: French Marriage Contract from 1647
« on: Saturday 29 October 22 21:41 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Zefiro on Saturday 29 October 22 19:13 BST (UK)
I managed to decipher the whole contract, more or less. If a kind soul could fill in the blanks or correct my mistakes, I'd be very grateful.

1. Pardevant les notaires gardenottes du Roy nostre sire en son chatelet
2. de Paris soubzsignez furent presents Messire Charles de Lux,
3. sieur de Vantelet, conseiller et Maitre d'hostel du Roy, gentilhomme
4. ordinaire de la chambre privée de la royne de la Grande Bretaigne,
5. assisté de dame Marguerite Courtin sa mere, femme de chambre
6. du lict de ladite dame Royne, vefve de Messire Jacques de Lux, vivant
7. sieur dudit Vantelet, aussy conseiller et Maitre d'hostel de Sa Majesté ...
8. estans de present en ceste ville de Paris à la suitte de ladite dame
9. royne logez au chateau du Louvre pour luy d'une part, et
10. Jacques Coignet escuier, sieur de la cour ...,
11. gentilhomme ordinaire de la chambre de presens de ladite dame
12. royne et damoiselle Elizabeth Garnier sa femme de luy ...
13. aucthorize pour l'effet qui ensuit aussy femme de chambre
14. du lict de ladite dame royne de la Grande Bretaigne, stipulle
15. en ceste partie pour damoiselle Henriette Marie Coignet leur
16. fille pareillement femme du chambre du lict dicelle dame
17. royne a ce presente et de son consentement estaint aussy de
18. present en ceste ville de Paris ... la personne de ladite dame
19. d'une part, Lesquelles parties en la presence et
20. du consentement de ladite dame Riyne; de monsieur le prince
21. de Galles son filz; de Messire Louis de Lux, seigneur de Vantelet
22. et D'Orsigny, conseiller et Maitre d'hostel du roy et escuier en la grande
23. écurie; de dame Françoise de Lux, vefve de feu Messire Charles
24. de Bernetz, vivant seigneur des Arpantez, maitre d'hostel de
25. son altesse royalle, oncle et tante du futur espoux; de Messire Paul
26. Francois de Bernetz, seigneur dudit lieu des Arpantez, aussy
27. Maitre d'hostel de ladite altesse cousin germain; de Messire Pierre
28. des Essartz, seigneur de Guisigny aussy cousin ...; de
29. dame Marie de Bernetz sa femme; de Messieur Courtin
30. ...#(1); de Jean Garnier, escuier, sieur de Beauregard et de
31. dame Françoise de Monbandiat sa femme, nourrice et
32. première femme de chambre de ladite Riyne de la Grande Bretagne
33. #(2) de monsieur le Begue tresorier des bastimens du roy a la dudite
34. futur espouse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
#(1) Car ainsy ... obligeant chacunnes d'elles en droict
soy lesdites sieur et damoiselle Coignet sollidairement renonciant
..., faict et passé au chateau du Louvre leur Majesté
y estaint l'an mil six cent quarante sept le vingtiesme
jour de febvrier a present midy sont signé.

#(2) En faveur duquel mariage ladite Majesté Britanique ne faict
don a ladite future espouze de M.. Jacobin ... en
monnaye de France la somme de dix mil livres
quelle promet faire payer
au plustest qu'elle pourra.

Oh, this is absolutely fantastic!  :) I am so impressed. And grateful!  :)

And the full contract tells us so much about how people are related! It's kind of cool all the mentions of the Louvre! :)

Just reading through this, I am learning so much I didn't know, and likely never would have known if not for this.

Thank you so, so, so, much for this. It's incredible! :) :) :)

2
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: French Marriage Contract from 1647
« on: Friday 28 October 22 11:32 BST (UK)  »
Think I found the daughter of Jacques de Lux and Marguerite Courtin who married the "Comte de Schelay" :)

Christiana Maria Vantelet, daughter of Sir James Vantelet, married Sir William Shelley, Knight,
of Michelgrove. They were parents of Sir Charles Shelley, 2nd Baronet.

https://humphrysfamilytree.com/Shelley/1st.baronet.michelgrove.html

3
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: French Marriage Contract from 1647
« on: Thursday 27 October 22 21:52 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Zefiro on Thursday 27 October 22 20:59 BST (UK)
My try for the first 9 lines. I've added a few accents, but not all. Abbreviations have been written in full. I probably made some mistakes, so feel free to correct me. The rest of this contract will follow (hopefully) in the next days. It is quite a challenging task, i dare say.

1. Pardevant les notaires gardenottes du Roy nostre sire en son chatelet
2. de Paris soubzsignez furent presents Messire Charles de Lux
3. sieur de Vantelet conseiller et Maitre d'hostel du Roy, gentilhomme
4. ordinaire de la chambre privée de la royne de la Grande Bretaigne
5. assisté de dame Marguerite Courtin sa mere femme de chambre
6. du lict de ladite dame Royne vefve de Messire Jacques de Lux vivant
7. sieur dudit Vantelet aussy conseiller et Maitre d'hostel de Sa Majestes sieur
8. estans de present en ceste ville de Paris à la suitte de ladite dame
9. royne logez au chateau du Louvre pour luy d'une part, et

Oh, my goodness, this is fantastic! Thank you so much!  :) :) :)

Those first two sentences, I had no I idea what they said!

And the chateau du Louvre. I spent ages looking at that without realising those were the words I was looking at! That is so cool, honestly!

Thank you so much for this  :)

4
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: French Marriage Contract from 1647
« on: Thursday 27 October 22 16:11 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: teragram31510 on Thursday 27 October 22 15:32 BST (UK)

WillowG, I haven't looked at the original document but was interested in the thread.
However, I have looked at the book reference you quote above and, although it seems a bit complicated it seems to me to say as follows:

The late king "disposed of" the children of Robert de Lux (butler to Louis XIII) who had married Marie de Plaisance (under-governess to the royal children) due to services rendered. Robert & Marie had a son Jacques de Lux, who was sent to serve the Queen of England, who married Mlle Courtin (no forename given). Jacques and his wife had a son Charles who became vice-chancellor to the Queen. Jacques and his wife married one of their daughters to the Count of Schelay and they had descendants. Louis de Lux (Charles' brother I think) became Ecuyer de la Grande Ecurie, and married Marie Merault (son - Antoine). Louis' sister Françoise (also Charles' sister therefore) married Mr de Bernet (attached to the duchess of Savoy). 

Some of these names seem to be in the transcription, so hope it helps!

Oh, thank you so much! Yes, this helps enormously. That clears things up exceedingly. Then the groom and bride probably were Charles de Lux and Henrietta Maria Coignet!

Mlle Courtin was probably the Marguerite Courtin, mother of Charles de Lux, from the wedding contract, so everything fits. Thank you so much again!

Quote from: joger on Thursday 27 October 22 15:46 BST (UK)
No, it means :One of the daughters of Charles de Lux married Count of Schelay.

To marry and "marier"in french does not mean quite the same thing

No, clearly not. I have had a lot of fun with the wedding contract, though.

Quote from: manukarik on Thursday 27 October 22 14:46 BST (UK)
Wow - hat off to you WillowG!

Hehe, thank you  :)

Thank you for all the information about stipuler! Henrietta Maria or her parents clearly had some conditions. *g*

5
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: French Marriage Contract from 1647
« on: Thursday 27 October 22 12:16 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: joger on Thursday 27 October 22 10:46 BST (UK)
https://gw.geneanet.org/lebelf?n=coignet&oc=&p=henriette+marie


From july the 25th 1644  Henriette Marie R(egina) was living in exile in France, then in Paris, where her son Charles joined her. Henriette Marie Coignet was the queen's bed maid.

Yes, but in this book:
https://books.google.com/books?id=iGBGSib6gDwC&pg=PA151&lpg=PA151&dq=%22Louis+de+Lux%22+%22Charles+de+Lux%22&source=bl&ots=B5o6_YU8ha&sig=ACfU3U1D7KGNx1jQVQwkAaWsKyLN7Vyfhw&hl=com&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwif2KDkhvz6AhUHjosKHSK1CmQQ6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q=%22Louis%20de%20Lux%22%20%22Charles%20de%20Lux%22&f=false

It says that:
Charles de Lux son Fils, a eu l'honneur d'estre Vice Chancelier de la Reyne de la Grand-Bretagne. Ils marierent l'une de leurs Filles au Comte de Schelay, qui est une des meilleures Maisons d'Angleterre, dont il y a eu lignee. Sa Majesté donna à Louis de Lux la Charge d'Ecuyer ordinaire de la Grande Ecurie, en laquelle il servit cinquante années.

Which I took to mean that Charles married one of the daughters of the Comte de Schelay.

Of course he could have married both, or the book is wrong, but I wanted to check.

6
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: French Marriage Contract from 1647 – Page One
« on: Thursday 27 October 22 12:06 BST (UK)  »
Alright, this is as far as I got on my own:

1. [...]
2. [...] Mre Charles de Lux
3. sieur de Vantelet coner [conseiller] s Ma [Maître] d[']hostel du Roy e gentilhomme
4. ordinaire de la chambre prince de la royne de la grande bretaigne
5. assisté de dame Marguerité Courtin Sa mebe femme de chambre
6. [du lit de Leus?] dame Royne vefve de Mre Jacques de Lux [vivant?]
7. sieur [dus Vantelet?] aussy coner et Ma d[']hostel de Sa Ma[jes]tes [chulme?]
8. [...] de lus dame
9. royne [...] au cheau [...] pour [...]

What I got from this:
Mr. Charles de Lux, sieur de Vantelet adviser and butler to the King, and gentleman ordinary to the bedchamber of the Royal prince of Great Britain, assisted by Dame Marguerité Courtin, his mother lady of the bedchamber [something] to the royal lady, widow of Mr. Jacques de Lux [vivant = in life?] sieur [to Vantelet?] also adviser and butler to his Majesty

10. Jacques Coignet [sans?] sieur de la con [...]
11. gentilhomme ordinaire de la chambre de presens de [lus/luis = our?] dame
12. royne et damlle Elizabeth Garnier Sa femme de luy [...]
13. [...] aussy femme de chambre
14. du lit de lus dame royné de la grande bretaigne, Stipule
15. en ceste partie pour damlle Henriette Marie Coignet leur
16. fille pareilleur femme ou chambre du lit duelle dame
17. royne a ce presente et de son consenten [estant?] aussy de

What I got from this:
Jacques Coignet Sieur de la con [something], Ordinary Gentleman of our Royal Lady's Presence Chamber and damlle Elizabeth Garnier his wife, also a lady of the bedchamber of the royal lady of Great Britain, [Stipule = decides?] in this part for damlle Henriette Marie Coignet their daughter alike lady of the bed chamber of [duelle = both?] the royal lady hereby presents and with his consent [...] also

18. [...]
19. [...]
20. [...] du consentement de lady[?] dame [...] de monsieur le priner
21. de qulles son filz de Mre Louis de Lux seigneur de Vanteler
22. [...] coner et Ma d'hostel du roy [...]

What I got from this:
A lot of people consenting.

23. [...] de dame Francoise de Lux vefve de [...] Mre Charles
24. du Bernetz vivant seigneur den Arpantez Ma d[']hostel ee
25. Son altesse royulle oncle s tante du futur espoux de Mre Paul

What I got from this:
of lady Francoise de Lux widow of [...] Mr Charles du Bernetz in life seigneur den Arpantez butler to His Highness Royal Uncle and Aunt of Mr. Paul's Future Spouse

Who is Mr. Paul?

26. François de Bernetz seigneur [ducslier?] de Arpantiz aussy
27. Ma d'hostel de sach altesse cousin germain de Mre Pidir

What I got from this:
 Mr. Pidir?

28. des Essarts seigneur de Buisigny aussy cousin [...] de
29. dame Marie de Bernetz la femme de Messieur Courtin
30. [...] de Jean Garnier [...] de Beauregard e de
31. dame Francoise de Monbaudiac sa femme nourrice C.
32. premier femme de chambre de la reyne de la grande bretagne
33. [It de monsieur le Begue fresorier des bastiment du Royalie dus?]
34. futir espous

What I got from this:
Dame Marie de Bernetz the wife of Monsieur Courtin [...] by Jean Garnier [...] Beauregard and by lady Francoise de Monbaudiac his wife nurse and first maid to the Queen of Great Britain

Someone offering the future spouses a place to live. But who are these future spouses?

7
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: French Marriage Contract from 1647
« on: Wednesday 26 October 22 21:10 BST (UK)  »
Yes, the two top signatures are "Henriette Marie R" and "Charles P" for Henrietta Maria, Queen of England and her son Charles, Prince of England (later Charles II). Their attendance in the wedding party definitely messed up our ability to figure out who the groom and bride were 375 years later *g*

8
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: French Marriage Contract from 1647
« on: Wednesday 26 October 22 20:33 BST (UK)  »
Oh, that is quite understandable and quite alright! If you want to I can make a post tomorrow with what I already have, the parts with the titles etc. that I have already worked out. Thank you so much for being will to have a look.

It is confusing, isn't it? I did not think it at all straightforward who the groom and bride were ...

9
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: French Marriage Contract from 1647
« on: Wednesday 26 October 22 20:02 BST (UK)  »
If you are comfortable with Mediafire, try:

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/f4vm1ndvcsv9w/French_Marriage_Contract_from_1647

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