Hello, thank you for adding me to the Forum.
A recent DNA test appears to show I share paternal ancestry at some point with the Cecils ( William Cecil 1st Baron Burghley etc.) Further DNA testing may help narrow down how long ago the shared ancestry may be.
My paternal ancestry has been traced in West Herefordshire back to about the 1660's, at least, initially in Ganarew (close to Symond's Yacht) and subsequently around the Michaelchurch Escley area, particularly Vowchurch and by the mid 1800's my great grandfather farmed near Bettws just outside Abergavenny which I think is in the Herefordshire manor of Ewyas Lacy, although Monmouthshire. He is buried at the nearby Patricio Church which his sons (stone masons), including my grandfather, helped to restore in the early 1900's.
One of my Howells ancestors was farming "Old Hay" in the 1800's which I have recently discovered is very close to Urishay Castle Herefordshire which was the De La Hay family seat I understand.
I have been trying to research local history to find a connection, aware that a non-paternal event somewhere down the generations is a possibility, although from an autosomal DNA match with another Howells descendant I don't think this could be later than the mid- 1700's (if at all).
I'm hoping to get some research help from Hereford Records Office who researched my paternal ancestry originally. In particular I have found an early reference to "Old Hay" and have wondered if there could be a connection between the Walter Ap Howel mentioned and my own ancestors, but maybe it is just coincidence. :-
"“Gift (13th January 1389)
Between
1) John de la Hay, lord of Urishay
2) Walter ap Howel
Parcel of land called Oldeheye [Old Hay], stretching from Walter’s house to Holbrokesford, and from land of William Syllas to land of Jevan Rygel, and one messuage enclosed by boundary markers, (enclosed from common land).
Walter to pay 2s 6d pa with all usual dues including suit of court.
Walter to enclose his fields, and pasture his beasts in the common pasture, viz. 12 steers and 12 cows, 2 horses and 40 sheep.
Warranty
Witnesses: John Henry, John Millies, John Wodman and others.
Given at Hay Urry, Wednesday next after Epiphany 10 Richard II."
One other thing is that I have an exact Y 12 marker match with a chap whose family have farmed near Brecon back to the mid-1700's (shared paternal ancestry some time back? ). This is the closest match I have so far in the UK. I've been reading about connections between the Cecils and Vaughans of Tretower and Bredwardine and the Vaughan descent from Walter Sais/Seys.
"The claim that this distinguished English political family is of Welsh origin calls for some clarification. The ancestral name, which appears in the family pedigrees as ‘Sitsyllt’ and was softened down to ‘Sissild,’ ‘Cyssel,’ ‘Cecild,’ and ‘Cecil’ in the course of the 15th and 16th cent. , is presumably the Welsh Seisyll; but the founder of the family, ROBERT SITSYLTT , first appears in history as a follower of the Norman Robert Fitzhamon (see under Robert of Gloucester ) in his conquest of the lordship of Glamorgan in the 11th cent. ; he acquired the family seat of Allt-yr-ynys (now in Herefords. , though the estate extends into Mon. ) by marriage into the family of the dispossessed Welsh owners. From this time on the ‘Sitsyllts’ generally married into Norman families and are frequently found fighting against the Welsh . Towards the end of the 15th cent. , however, RICHARD CECIL , the first to use the modern form of the name, m. into the Brecknock family of Vaughan of Tyle-glas . His younger son DAVID CECIL (d. 1541 ) migrated, with some of his Brecknock ‘cousins,’ to Northamptonshire , where he entered the service of Henry VII , became a Yeoman of the Chamber , 1507 , acquired the stewardship of several Crown manors , and served as sheriff of Northampton in 1529-30 . His son RICHARD CECIL of Burghley (d. 1552 ) m. into one of the Brecknock families that had settled in Northamptonshire in his grandfather's time, was a royal page at the Field of Cloth of Gold ( 1520 ), further enriched his family by monastic spoils, and became the father of William Cecil 1st Baron Burghley"
Emeritus Professor Arthur Herbert Dodd, M.A., (1891-1975), Bangor
Published date: 1959 ( Source National Library of Wales) .
I have joined the FTDNA Cecil project. My Y DNA is U106 Z326 usually described as "Germanic" so where did the line originate?
Sais as in Walter Sais according to one source is Old Welsh for Saxon and applied to "English" settlers in Welsh lands. A Saissil or Sassil is mentioned in the Domesday book as holding lands in Lyde and Staunton on Arrow Herefordshire pre- conquest, but probably an un-related "Saissil". He is described as potentially a Welsh Ally of Harold Godwinson. I guess an assumption based on his "Welsh" name but West Herefordshire would have been an Anglo-Welsh community, so a Welsh name given to an Anglo/Saxon wouldn't have been impossible I would have thought?
Was Robert Sitsyllt the supposed founder of the family and follower of Robert of Gloucester Norman maybe or was the family really Welsh as claimed?
Apologies for the long rambling post. Any thoughts or suggestions on this would be most welcome.
John Howells (or Sitsyllt)
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I always assumed it meant Yett or Gateway, meaning the gap made by the river Wye ?
. I'm aware Saesneg means English or foreign but I believe modern Welsh for Saxon is Sacsonaidd not Sais. There seem to be different opinions on the origin of Sais or Seys as a surname including, as I mentioned old Welsh for Saxon or that it relates to Say in Normandy (de Sey).