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Messages - croz

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London and Middlesex / Re: Morland Family - Fulham area 1820s
« on: Thursday 31 August 17 10:59 BST (UK)  »
Latest update - copy of John Morland 1845 death certificate obtained...details are :

Date of death 24 July 1845
Place Fulham Fields
John Moreland (spelt with an "e")
Age 70
Occupation CARPENTER
cause of death Gout
Informant - Rebekah Frances, present at the death, residence Fulham Fields.

As far as I can see "Fulham Fields" is a generic district...I cannot pin down any more detailed location. Rebekah Frances seems to have been a nurse (at least from 1851 census information, although the name spelling is slightly different).

So - we still have the anomaly of the 1843 and 1844 Sailor and Mariner occupation details, from his daughters' marriage certificates and the "mariner's widow" reference on his wife's death cert in 1866. Otherwise the occupation thread, gleaned from baptism and census information goes :

1817 "Gent"         (baptism record)
1820 Carpenter    (baptism record)
1822 Carpenter    (baptism record)
1841 Upholsterer  (Census)
1845 Carpenter     (Death cert)

I really cannot make sense of it ......I cannot see any way that the John Morland who baptised Ann Selina and Margaret Elizabeth can be a different person from the father of both of them at the time of their marriages ... so where did the sailor and mariner come from ??????
Looking at dates - born in 1775, married in 1815, first child baptised 1817 (when JM was 42) I suppose it might be possible that he was a sailor/mariner before his marriage (my original family tree compiler used the expression (JM) "was for many years a sailor ...then upholsterer.." but I don't know on what evidence he based that sequence of occupation events .....a sequence which cannot apparently be supported from what I have now uncovered).  Why, however, his daughters (and widow, or at least her death informant, who was, I think, a niece of Ann Selina Morland's husband John Limpus) would have preferred "sailor" or "mariner" as his occupation rather than "carpenter" is strange.......incidentally his widow, Sarah Ann, was listed as "late dressmaker" in the 1851 census and "alms woman" in the 1861 census ...never as "mariner's widow"....or even "carpenter's widow"

Sussex / Re: Ragless and Penfold families - Angmering Sussex
« on: Tuesday 29 August 17 17:08 BST (UK)  »
Unfortunately no occupation clues for either Richard or Mary - although I am reasonably sure about his father Thomas being Parish Clerk and their son Henry was "Headmaster" (although there seems to have been only one other teacher) of Older's charity school in Angmering- prior to that he was landlord of the Lamb inn, which still has a room named in his honour. His brother John emigrated to Australia in 1838 and there is extensive information about him and his subsequent business activities on the web. I had noticed references to the Penfold traveller families so I guess that is a possibility ...but Mary Penfold 1750, descended from James and Rebekah (with a brother Henry who may have been the marriage witness) is so far my best bet ...As the Angmering village website is a source of much information about the Ragless family, particularly in relation to their occupation of a specific cottage in the village, I am a bit surprised that there is no occupation detail for Richard, son of the Parish Clerk ....

Sussex / Re: Ragless and Penfold families - Angmering Sussex
« on: Tuesday 29 August 17 15:31 BST (UK)  »
Thanks jonw65 for that extra information. I believe Thos Ragless was Richard's father and was the  Parish or Vestry Clerk, a post held for some twenty years from 1764. This would explain why he was a regular marriage witness.

I have found a christening record (albeit only via the FamilySearch site) for a Mary Penfold 1 July  1750 in Shipley, Sussex (although that doesn't necessarily tie in with the practice of marriage in the home parish). She seems to be the daughter of James Penfold (abt 1705) and  Rebekah Toley (abt 1710). Intriguingly I believe Richard and Mary Ragless had a daughter named Rebecca ..possibly christened in December 1779 (!) .... and Mary (if this is "the one") had a sister Jane and brother Henry .....also names given to children of the Ragless/Penfold marriage ......I feel "straws" and "clutching" creeping into this research !

I have not been able to find any reliable burial records for either Richard or Mary. I believe Richard may have been born abt 1751 but there is a christening record in Yapton in 1764....

Sussex / Re: Ragless and Penfold families - Angmering Sussex
« on: Tuesday 29 August 17 14:06 BST (UK)  »
Apologies...I wasn't paying proper attention. I think that the Mary Penfold I was originally following married a Clement or Clements, based on the passing references in Richard the apothecary's other daughters' their "late sister Mary". The lack of reference to her in her parents' wills is intriguing but probably a puzzle for someone else, as I don't think she is "my" Mary !

Sussex / Re: Ragless and Penfold families - Angmering Sussex
« on: Tuesday 29 August 17 13:10 BST (UK)  »
A Mary Penfold married Arnold Wise in Steyning in 1771.  He is from Gosport in Hampshire.

That must be a different Mary - there is no doubt that the Mary Penfold I seek was married to Richard Ragless in Angmering in 1779. What I can't yet work out is her ancestry so I guess I am looking, as Stovepipe suggests,  for a Mary Penfold born in Angmering sometime in the 1750-1760 window, who doesn't seem to be the Mary Penfold who was daughter of Richard the apothecary and Charity ...(and who probably married someone called Clement or Clements....not Ragless).

Sussex / Re: Ragless and Penfold families - Angmering Sussex
« on: Sunday 20 August 17 17:59 BST (UK)  »
Information came from a contact via the Fulham and Hammersmith Historical Society who was also researching the Ragless, Penfold and Morland lines and with whom I  share a common ancestry.

Sarah Ann Ragless was my g-g-g grandmother and married John Morland (see my other posts on this forum) in 1815. My contact suggested Sarah Ann Ragless' mother was Mary Penfold born 1749, Steyning, Sussex. I have been looking into this Mary Penfold's ancestry ...hence my question and probable confusion !

London and Middlesex / Re: Morland Family - Fulham area 1820s
« on: Sunday 13 August 17 00:09 BST (UK)  »
All theories welcome ..... the date "inscribed" on the backing slate could be 1843 or 1848 best guess is 1843 but it could have been "inscribed" much later. We could have enough material here for a mini-series ...I will certainly get the death cert for JM 1845 ...whether it is the right JM remains to be seen this space !

London and Middlesex / Re: Morland Family - Fulham area 1820s
« on: Saturday 12 August 17 09:07 BST (UK)  »
Who knows....??? The etched letters and words may simply be the work of mischievous children many years ago...the backwards lettering in "Limpus" has always looked suspicious but we will never know.....every time I put the old chap away I wish he could speak to me....😉

London and Middlesex / Re: Morland Family - Fulham area 1820s
« on: Wednesday 09 August 17 21:41 BST (UK)  »
A link to one of my other posts on the Morland subject  just for interest -  includes a photo of what I have always believed to be a marble relief/cameo sculpture one of the John Morlands ... more likely the 1739-99 Soho cabinet maker.......or maybe that's just another story ... it certainly came to me via Ann Selina's granddaughter ( my own grandmother ).

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