RootsChat.Com

Rosi,

Been having a bit of trouble with the rootschat tech, the computer asked for a longer password which i gave it, but when I used it, I was told that Aceh already existed as a user name. As I approach my 79th birthday I dont have time for all this, so I've returned to the original password and miraculousy appear to have got through!

Ok,back to Mary Hale and her parentage:
 
I have found on FreeREG, a bride named Sarah Susanna Williams, who might have been Mary's mother, in a marriage on 15 August 1835 at Brighton, therefore close to Mary's birth in 1838, but the groom was recorded as Frank Francis (which in itself is strange) and when i checked to see if he had died and left Sarah Susanna a widow in time for her to remarry to a Mr Hale and be the mother of Mary, alas no such death or burial found.
I also looked on FreeREG for a suitable marriage of a Joseph [John?] Hale, but all that came up were  marriages by Joseph Howell to Ann Leticia Terry and Joseph Hoole to Ann Beggis.

What we have are 2 official legal documents of record:
1. the Birth Certificate of Mary Hale stating that her father was Joseph Hale, Shoemaker and his mother was Susan Hale formerly Williams (5 May 1838 at Brighton).
2. the Marriage Certificate of Mary Hale to Alfred Cullmer in which the bride's father was stated as John Hale, Shoemaker. (23 September 1857 at Finsbury, London).

My jottings from back in 2002 show a number of Hale families in Brighton and London (several found to be duplicates) and it has been suggested that this group was so close that Mary may have been passed to and living with, families other than her own for duties such as child care, domestic help, etc. At the time I could make nothing of this as connection between these Hale families could not be established.

Another thought has come to mind. Were the clergy in the mid 1800s still using Day Books to scribble down the details of BMDs as they happened and get these records transferred to the Registers later? Were Bishops transcripts still being used to confirm or correct the Register entries?
Back in the 1600s I have found evidence of a screw up between Day Book scribbles and Register, not being picked up by the BTs. I have seen the state of some of these Day Books! I wonder whether this is again the problem?

This is an old problem that I have returned to once and awhile with no certain result.
My 2 x great-great grandmother, Mary was, according to her birth certificate, born on 5 May 1838 at 12, Riding School Lane, Brighton, Sussex. Father Joseph Hale, Shoemaker; Mother Susan Hale formerly Williams. Birth registration: Q2 1838, Brighton, Volume 7, Page 246.
Mary was married on 23 December 1857 at St Paul's Finsbury, Middlesex, to Alfred Cullmer of the Royal London Militia. The marriage certificate records that Mary's father was John Hale, Shoemaker.
Mary has not been found on the 1841 Census, but there was a John Hale aged 30, warehousman in Shoreditch, born within the county, with wife Elizabeth, but I don't think he is connected.  Mary has been found in the 1851 Census she is recorded, aged 13 and born in Brighton, as the daughter of Sarah Hale, widow, Shoe Closer, born: "n K". Sarah also has sons aged 4 and 1 month, sugesting that she was only recently widowed. It is interesting to note that on the next line there appears " Harriett Healls", Head, unmarried, aged 29 born London, with daughter Ellen aged 10, born London. Harriett is described as a Shoe Binder. The following page was 'missing' it seems, as it was not sent to me out in Sumatra. Mary appears again, in the 1881 Census, as married to Alfred Cullmer with her place of birth confirmed as Brighton.
As there are several people in this tale named Hale in the shoe making trade, both in Brighton and in London it occurs to me that there may have been an extended family named Hale, in Brighton and possibly later in London, making shoes. Does anyone have any connection with Hale families or the shoemaking trade that might throw some light on this gordian knot? I would like to trace Mary's ancestral line back if that's possible, but for that I do need accurately to establish her parentage - no likely marriage found so far.

Isabel,

Many thanks for your swift reply. The synchronisation (to allow me to take the laptop to archives etc with up-to-date data) was done some years ago and the person concerned is no longer with us. I closed the laptop down, but, only after I had taken screen shots of all my personal data, so if the worst comes to the worse I will be able to reconstruct myself and reclaim my position as root person; however in that event I will have a 3,300 odd ID No.
My brother, who has no interest in family history, but is a long retired computer wizz and now runs a sailing club, will try to find out how One-Drive can be used for synchronisation, so as to back track the sequence of actions that would have been used.
Many thanks again.

Morning David,
Yes I'm still here. i have been trying to get a slot , on Wednesdays only, at the SOG temporary home on the Holloway Road (an area of London to which I have never previously had the pleasure), in order to access the LDS Film collection. The films are no longer available; all is now digitised - you probably already knew this.
I managed to get a slot last Wednesday and with the assistance of the new librarian, attempted to access parish registers images of Harding interest. This can only be done from an SOG computer, the SOG being an LDS associate library, other direct methods are locked. After 2 hours we had not achieved much. In ignorance I had not taken my Family Search login with me so the search had to be done using the SOG login by the librarian. I have seen an example screen of a Bishops transcript  from the early 1800s, one of many thousands as it appears that LDS can only offer 1538 - 1800 odd, but we haven't found a way of getting images between date A to date B or specific registers.
The librarian tried to contact Else Churchill the SOG Archivist for advice by email but with no success. I retreated as I had an appointment at the British Library in the afternoon
I need to apply for another slot, which has to be on a Wednesday of course. Hopefully both the SOG librarian and I will be a bit more knowlegible about how to use the LMS Catalogue as far as the digitised films are concerned.

On a more positive note, I have found on Find my Past, the transcription of the baptism of a John Harden at Box, (famous for Brunei and his tunnel), a village east of Bath, in Wiltshire:

John Harden, baptised 19 May 1700, Father William, Mother Mary; as part of the transcription there is a note "HARDEN in Reg: HARDING in BT".

A possible candidate for John Harden who married Ann Grist at Wellow? A bit old for a first marriage in 1730; a widower perhaps? Marital status not given.

 

I'm using the the copy I made in 2011 from the typescript of the Newton St Loe Combined Register held at the SOG, shelfmark SO/R/12. This contains Baptisms 1739 - 1812; Marriages 1642 - 1802 and Burials 1738 - 1809.
Your revised baptism for Ormond at Twerton, makes Moses the 2nd son as per the 2nd child listed in the Removal Order of 1738.
As for Jane yes, my 1st thought was this is a perinatal death; a baptism followed by a burial of a child. However, such baptisms are usually described as "private baptisms" ie emergencies where the clergyman is rushed to the place of birth to ensure the sickly child will go to the hereafter without complications. This classification has not been used. Also, in the SOG transcript the baptism of "Jane Harding, daughter of John and Ann" is dated 26 January 1739. In the burial section of the register  the burial of "Jane Harding, daughter of John and Ann" is dated 30 January 1738. This implies that that there is year between the burial and the baptism. In both baptism and burial Jane Harding is the first entry in the register, so in the case of the burial, the baptism would be found in the previous register, if it survived.
My study has been invaded by fruit flies so I will send this, shut down, deal with the invasion and return to deal with John tomorrow!

Alan