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Messages - Elwyn Soutter

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10
Ireland / Re: Denis McKay + Henry/Neil McKay Lookup or Advice
« on: Saturday 06 April 24 11:01 BST (UK)  »


Just as an FYI, I got the docs for Michael:

- Marriage in 1871: 28, Coal Miner. Father: ?Henry? McKay, ag. lab.


I think the father’s name on the marriage certificate is Harry, not Henry. But Harry is a common synonym for Henry. (Prince Harry’s name on his birth certificate is Henry). Other examples are Sarah & Sally, Peggy & Margaret, Robin & Robert (poet Robert Burns was known to his friends as Robin),  John & Jack and so on. Note that both Henry/Harry & Mary were both still alive in 1871. I can’t find any other couple who were still both alive in 1871, who fit the information you have.

Ag Lab and farmer are not always the same thing but with only 5 acres Henry was close to being an ag lab.

11
Ireland / Re: Denis McKay + Henry/Neil McKay Lookup or Advice
« on: Friday 05 April 24 23:36 BST (UK)  »
Yes McCoy becoming McKay in Scotland is perfectly feasible.  It’s the same name and all that has happened is that it has been Scottified a bit. Many names changed like that when folk moved to Scotland eg McDonnell to MacDonald, Loughlin to Lauchlin. Ellen often became Helen in Scotland.

MacLysaght’s Surnames of Ireland says McCoy is one of the several anglicised forms of Mac Aodha (son of Hugh). MacKay/McKay is also from that same precise origin, as is McKee.  MacLysaght says that in Ulster McCoy is a galloglass name. In other words they are descendants of Scots who came to Ireland in the 1300s - 1500s as mercenaries, and were given land in return for their fighting skills, against other Irish tribes and also the English.

Here’s Henry McCoy of Carrowmannin, Co Armagh who died 9th July 1897 aged 68. He may be your Denis’s father. He is shown as a farmer but he only had 5 acres according to Griffiths Valuation, so that’s subsistence farming.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05859/4660721.pdf

Informant was daughter Annie McKeown. Here’s Annie’s marriage, to a man working in Cadzow, Scotland:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1894/10551/5843559.pdf

Henry’s wife Mary’s death on 1st Feb 1884. Son John was the informant.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1884/06340/4818312.pdf

Informant was son John. Here’s his marriage:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1865/11572/8257586.pdf

John then dies in 1895:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1895/05945/4689212.pdf

Here’s his widow on the farm in Carrowmannin in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Balleek/Carrowmannon/1035011/

And in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Belleek/Carrowmannan/305210/

Big jump in her age in 1911 (25 years on her age in 1901).  This was because of the old age pension which began in 1909. You had to be over 70 to qualify, so folk “reviewed” their age accordingly.

Note: I can’t be certain this is the right family but most of the information seems to fit. Don’t worry too much about ages. Irish folk in the 1800s didn’t celebrate birthdays and often didn’t really know how old they were. Ages vary dramatically in Irish records.  Many were just guesstimates.

12
Ireland / Re: Denis McKay + Henry/Neil McKay Lookup or Advice
« on: Friday 05 April 24 22:24 BST (UK)  »
You need to look at that 1871 marriage to see if Michael's parents match Denis's. It will also tell you the father's occupation (important in Irish research) and whether they were alive or dead on that date.

Ancestry has an RC baptism for Denis McCoy in Loughgilly, Co Armagh on 27th May 1852. Parents Henry McCoy and Mary Cummins. Looks promising.

I also see additional children to that couple in the same baptism records:

Michael 28.3.1842
Elizabeth 16.2.1854
Ann 27.7.1850

13
London and Middlesex / Re: people working on the tube. enquiry
« on: Saturday 30 March 24 21:52 GMT (UK)  »
This website has members who work for London Underground (or whatever it is properly called today) and some of them may be able to help you find the answer.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/

14
Scotland / Re: Is Mackdonald the same as Macdonald?
« on: Saturday 30 March 24 21:20 GMT (UK)  »
The idea of a single or correct spelling for a surname is very much a recent phenomenon designed to meet the needs of modern officialdom. Before that there was no consistency. Names were spelled phonetically and each variation was down to the whim of the particular person recording the information. You will often see the spelling change as the records go back. This rarely indicates a deliberate decision to alter the name, nor even a mistake. Not everyone was literate, but even when they were, exact and consistent spelling simply wasn’t something they bothered about.

In 1899, the Rev Smith reviewed the early records of Antrim 1st Presbyterian church (covering the years 1674 to c 1736). He noted: “Even the same word is not always spelled alike by the same hand. Indeed spelling with most of the recording officials (and they must have been fairly numerous) was a matter of the most sublime indifference. The name William, for instance, is spelled 3 different ways in as many lines; while Donegore, a neighbouring parish, is spelled 10 different ways; but these extend over a good number of years. Many families names are spelled phonetically, while others are given in the most round-about fashion.”

Recording names in Scotland was just the same as in Ireland. So expect spelling to vary. That was the norm.

15
Lanarkshire / Re: John Waddell the Martyr
« on: Sunday 24 March 24 21:06 GMT (UK)  »


Freda Bingley lists baptisms in Seaforde, County Down, of James in 1738 and Thomas in 1739 to Thomas W and Jane Bruce. She attributes them to the IGI (International Genealogical Index) but I can't find them there or anywhere else on the FamilySearch web site.

Seaforde is in the parish of Loughinisland. There are various churches there (Church of Ireland, several Presbyterian and RC). However none has records for the 1730s. The oldest is the Church of Ireland. Their records start in 1760. (Copy held in PRONI in Belfast).

So whatever the source of these baptisms is, it seems unlikely to be supported by any surviving church records.

16
Antrim / Re: Charles & Eliza SPARROW
« on: Wednesday 20 March 24 11:42 GMT (UK)  »
I searched for Sparrow marriages in the Belfast area 1855-1875 but only found this one which is presumably Charles junior:

8264049.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie) (The link doesn't seem to be accessible so you may need to look the marriage up on irishgenealogy, if you don't already have it. 1865.

The family are in the City Cemetery:

Charles William died 20.3.1954
Mary Jane 4.5.1950
Charles 5.1.1882
Eliza 4.2.1881 aged 75 (his mother perhaps?)
Charles 9.2.1909

17
Antrim / Re: Stewarts
« on: Monday 18 March 24 20:22 GMT (UK)  »
I can’t find a death for a Jean Stewart in 1873. Nearest was this in 1874 for a widowed  farmer’s wife from Tullybane, Dunaghy (near Clough). Jean and Jane are interchangeable names in Ireland (and Scotland).

7247273.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)

There are several trees on Ancestry that have this family but I have to say not all the information on them looks accurate to me. Exercise caution if relying on any of them.

For example, the McCann tree has your Joseph b 1785 as the father of another Joseph Stewart b 1801 who married Maria Hall in 1852. You can see the likely  marriage certificate here:

5413134.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)

You will see that the Joseph shown there had a father named William Stewart, not Joseph, that he was 27 years of age so born c 1825, not 1801 and that his bride was Jane not Maria. Otherwise spot on! He did live in Tullybane though. There was a Joseph Stewart born 1801 who  died 1881 in Tullybane but I think someone has got their lines mixed up as to who was married to who and who is descended from whom. 1881 death here. Note that he was still married:

4845485.pdf (irishgenealogy.ie)

Though most pre 1901 Irish censuses were lost, a few fragments survive, including those for Tullybane in 1851. There were 3 Stewart families living there then:

National Archives: Census of Ireland 1911
National Archives: Census of Ireland 1911
National Archives: Census of Ireland 1911

I’ll leave you to work out how they were all related.

There are a number of Stewart & Mann graves in Clough graveyard. This one relates to one of the Tullybane families:

[on east face] In loving memory, of, Hugh Stewart, Tullybane, died 27th December 1910, aged 79 years, and his daughters, Louisa, died 28th December 1910, aged 37 years. Margaret died 30th July 1883 aged 16 years, Jane died 2nd February 1864, aged 1 year and 7 months, Mary died 19th February 1968. Stewart [On north face] Jane McCaughey, wife of, Hugh Stewart, died 16th July 1914, aged 75 years. Their son John, died 7th March 1951 aged 72 years, His wife, Martha Ruth Conn, died 29th January 1974, aged 87 years.

Much Irish research comes to a stop around 1800 due to the general lack of records. Clough Presbyterian church is one of the oldest in Ireland and the congregation there dates back to the mid 1600s. Unfortunately in the mid 1800s there was a fire and all their early records were lost.

Incidentally Jean Moharg is more likely to be Meharg. That’s a fairly common name in Co Antrim.
Hope some of this is of help.

18
Down / Re: Church of Ireland Baptisms
« on: Saturday 16 March 24 09:10 GMT (UK)  »
The PRONI guide to church records says that the Banbridge COI records start in 1802 (Seapatrick parish). They have a copy from 1802 up to the mid 1900s. PRONI doesn’t have them on-line so a personal visit is required to view them.

To answer your question about mandatory baptism, no it wasn't mandatory, and not everyone was baptised. Plus some were baptised later in life. You sometimes see batch baptisms where a whole string of children in the same family were all baptised at once, some many years after their birth. So you need to search widely at times.

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