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Messages - Ghostwheel

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19
Kildare / Re: Clonkeen, in what Catholic Parish?
« on: Wednesday 22 November 23 01:22 GMT (UK)  »
I have found it in Carbury and Dunforth.

But I am wondering if it could have ever been a part of Balyna, say, in the 1660s.

How hard or fungible are parish lines?

In Kerry,  I've seen instances where people switch parishes without switching their townland.

20
Kildare / Clonkeen, in what Catholic Parish?
« on: Wednesday 22 November 23 00:00 GMT (UK)  »
I know that Clonkeen must be in either the Catholic parish of Balyna or else in Carbury and Dunforth.

I am sure that I saw it while reading one of the registers years ago, when I wasn't particularly interested in the place, but I forget which one.  And I am having a bit of trouble refinding it.

Can anyone elucidate it for me?

21
Ireland / Re: Priest with two names
« on: Friday 18 August 23 21:31 BST (UK)  »
The bishop went into exile, but came back.

Dominick used the name Dominick as a vicar general in1672/1673, when he was operating with a high profile.  At that time, Charles II had a Catholic queen consort, and was relatively tolerant.

So, if Dominick was some kind of alias, it must have been one of legacy, because he (presumably) needed to employ it before the Restoration, assuming he was a priest or educated before then.

The only other option, presuming they were the same man, would be that Lewis was an alias, but it doesn't make sense to use one on a grave, especially when Dominic was used a year previously.

22
Ireland / Re: Priest with two names
« on: Friday 18 August 23 20:03 BST (UK)  »
Looking at some memorials that I am personally familiar with, it seems like a common mistake that the bottom of the inscription was cut off, when it was first written down.  In the case of upright tombstones, it is easy to understand that this part may have been buried in the dirt.  Not sure whether the grave is a table one or meant to stand upright.  But anyway Comerford spoke with the clergy.  He wouldn't have left off details that were locally known but by mistake.  Perhaps, he didn't look at it directly, or was confused by interpreting a note.

William and Anne were allied with some Catholic countries.  as far as I know, they didn't kill any priests (at least excepting a few who died in prison.). Their policy was to deport the ones they saw as problematic.  Regulars, vicars, and bishops and anyone that seemed to them to be bucking their authority, or keeping too high a profile.  But, after a time, some were tolerated, as long as they weren't too obvious.

I've considered the idea the name was an alias.  I guess it might be possible in a roundabout way - if you go all the way back to when he was ordained or getting his education, presumably on the continent  (1650s?).  They had informers in such places.
 Maybe, it became his name of habit. 

But I don't think it makes sense in a later timeframe.  Most local aliases seem to have involved changing both names as far as I can tell.

A lot of clergy registered wills under their own names, in this period.  Though often leaving off their titles.  At least after a time, some number of them seem to have been clearly known but tolerated.

If you are interested in the will, you can read it beginning at the bottom of p80 here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Xqg0AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA80&dq=bishop+John+Dempsey+will&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiC25ek7eaAAxWwmIkEHahlDDAQ6AF6BAgFEAM#v=onepage&q=bishop%20John%20Dempsey%20will&f=false

23
Ireland / Re: Priest with two names
« on: Tuesday 15 August 23 17:52 BST (UK)  »
I have read that part of Comerford's history of the diocese before.

My original theory is that they just flubbed writing down the transcription.  Maybe, it was hard to read.  But it is almost a bit like they did read it, if you refer to that other part, where they say "kin" and "predecessor."

If one takes it for granted that the "ruled his flock for 47 years" is correct and refers to one parish, then it almost seems hard to fit Lewis into another timeline.  Granted there was a priest in 1731 with the name, but he wasn't there in 1704, and doesn't seem to have been there in 1749.

I think I can clearly read the L in Lewis.  B looks to me like an optical illusion caused by circular lichen.

As to the two vicars: Lewis is called a vicar on his grave.  Dominick was apparently a vicar in the same parish in 1673 and probably 1672.  He was still alive in 1703, and I would suppose it follows he was still a vicar, though, of course, there was a bounty on vicars, so they were probably discreet about it.

The issue with the bishop being in the parish is that he was in hiding because there was a bounty on bishops too.  Find the vicar, and it is presumably easier to find the bishop.

But I actually think they knew where he was was (he was not using an alias) but let him be as long he was discreet.

I may try to contact the people at Maynooth, and see what they make of my theory.

24
Ireland / Re: Priest with two names
« on: Tuesday 15 August 23 00:05 BST (UK)  »
Quote
Viz: According to the transcription, one priest, Lewis, d. 1704, was a brother of Dominick, d. 1785
This threw me off at first too.  But I decided, it's probably not literal.

While there are families where multiple brothers were priests, I don't think it was too common.

I'm not sure what "brother" means here exactly.  Perhaps, something like "brother in Christ."  Or that he was some other kind of kin.  (He likely was.)

I am not 100% sure the exact year for the later death can be trusted, but I believe it was much later, and that they weren't siblings.

Dominick is evidenced in 1703, but not on the return of priests in 1704.  Lewis died in 1704, but before the registration date for the return.

Dominick was of a similar age to Lewis.  He was a vicar in 1673 or probably 1672, which would likely mean he was at least 30 back then, and probably older.

There were many Dempsy priests in the parish, over time.  Including a later Lewis and a later Dominick (than the original.)

25
Kildare / Re: Meaning of a place name in Kildare
« on: Monday 14 August 23 23:21 BST (UK)  »
I thought I recall reading somewhere that most of the "towns" in Ireland were typically named by foreign settlers.

It was not uncommon to have "town"  appended to some man's name.

Depending on its antiquity, I would suggest that Blue might be the English/Scottish surname "Blew."

26
Ireland / Re: Priest with two names
« on: Monday 14 August 23 22:26 BST (UK)  »
Quote
Holier than what? 
In my case, assuming I am right, and it is the same guy - Lewis.  But Lewis only appears on the grave.  And get this - there is another Dominick buried in it, though I believe he died much later.

As another example, I have found a bishop/archbishop named Edward Dominic Murphy, who seems to have sometimes been called Dominic and sometimes Edward.

I thought Dominick might be a particular name of priests.  Perhaps, of Dominicans.  But Irishgenealogy.ie seems to have a lot of hits for people baptized with the name.

This particular fellow lived during penal times.  I considered the idea it could be an alias, but I just don't think it makes any sense.

And I tried pretty hard to explain it that way.  But he was mentioned in a will as Dominick, one year before he died.

And I really think it must be the same guy.  They were both vicars general.  And what, there is like 1-2 in a diocese?And from what I can tell the guy in the grave was a priest in the same parish at the same time.

Here's the grave, I can find no other certain reference to him as "Lewis."
http://www.enfieldgraveyards.com/Gravestone.aspx?GravestoneID=684

I'm not a 100% sure, but I assume the inscription dates to much later.  Would they say "vicar general", when a bishop was hiding in the same parish in 1704?

27
Ireland / Priest with two names
« on: Monday 14 August 23 21:35 BST (UK)  »
Do priests ever adopt a new name when they get ordained?

Something that sounds holier, like "Dominick."  Or something like a confirmation name.

Anyone heard of a priest who was known by two different (first) names?

In theory, why would a priest have a different first name on his grave?  And should it probably be considered a birth name, if he does?

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