Author Topic: James Rae & Margaret Paul - Muiravonside  (Read 19299 times)

Offline Dano

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Re: James Rae & Margaret Paul - Muiravonside
« Reply #9 on: Friday 09 May 08 10:42 BST (UK) »
Hi There,

yes I have Margaret Rae as the 2nd wife of William Penman.  Margaret died 1889 Bothkennar according to a MI listing and William died 6 Aug 1875 also in Bothkennar according to his death certificate.

I have 4 children for William Penman & his 1st wife and 11 for William & Margaret Rae.  Which branch of the family are you interested in?  Perhaps we can share information.

Cheers
Dano
Stirlingshire, Scotland - Aitken, Waddell, Wilson, Rae, Dunlop, Liddell, McLuckie. Laird
Carmarthen, Wales - Lewis
Carvan, Ireland - Coyle
N.S.W. Australia - Lewis, Morris

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Offline colliersbairn

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Re: James Rae & Margaret Paul - Muiravonside
« Reply #10 on: Friday 09 May 08 11:43 BST (UK) »
Hi Dano,
I am descended through the youngest son by the only wife, as I am led to believe - Margaret Rae.  Their youngest son was Robert Thomas.  Correct me if I am wrong though.  I went to New Registry House in the 1990's and could not get any farther back than William and Margaret Penman.  You see there were two William and Margaret's in the same parish and it wasn't obvious which one was which.  I hired a researcher and she sorted it out by using the census and found all the christening records for William Penman and Margaret Rae.  I also looked around Bothkennar churchyard and found the obelisk for William Penman's family.  There was certainly not two wives buried there.  However, if you have proof, please let me know.  The other William Penman married Margaret Welsh.

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Offline apanderson

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Re: James Rae & Margaret Paul - Muiravonside
« Reply #11 on: Friday 09 May 08 18:50 BST (UK) »
Hi guys,

Hope you don't mind me sticking my nose in . . . . .

colliersbairn - the obelisk you refer to in Bothkennar - how recently did you see it - was it at the same time you went to Edinburgh in the 1990's?

I've been back and forward a few times to Bothkennar Churchyard over the past couple of years and the only obelisk there was one lying on the ground beneath bushes, obviously broken. It has fallen on it's front and the only inscription now visible is that of children and the following is what I think are the details (the inscription is pretty weathered):

"Sacred to the memory of ANDREW PENMAN died 3rd March 1843? aged 9 months      
CHRISTINA PENMAN died 4th September 1852 aged 6? years
WILLIAM PENMAN died 22nd February 1854? aged 9 months               
JAMES PENMAN died 28th November 1872? aged 21 years
ANDREW PENMAN died 6th August 1874 in the 25th year of his age"


Double checking the above MI against the Mitchells pre-1855 Book, they had the same dates as above for all the children and they obviously were able to see the remainer which verifies that these were the children of William Penman and Margaret Rae. The book also adds that the stone was erected in 1872 by William Penman so probably this would be around the date of death of his son James.

Also according to this book, there was a stone next to this obelisk (which I didn't find) and the inscription on that was:

"(Erected by)William Penman & Janet Laird
To their daughter Eliza M. Laird who died 8th May 1889 aged 14"


There's a third stone beside these two which has the inscription:

"Erected by Andrew Penman & G. McLuckie his wife in memory of their family            
MARGARET died 11th April 1859 aged 15 months
JAMES died 1st June 1860 aged 7 months                     
JANE beloved wife of J. Russell died 20th September 1875 aged 21 years
CATHERINE died 3rd October 1876 aged 24 years                     
The above named ANDREW PENMAN died 3rd September 1888 aged 64 years
ANDREW Junior died 2nd October 1888 aged 32 years"


The only other Penman in Bothkenner (at least one with a stone) is this one:

"Here rests the body of GRISEL ROSS spouse to the Rev John Penman             
To her Christ .? Both in life and death June 25th 1756?
And in a life of unveiled? Piety and Diligence in the work of the Gospel               
Rests here also the body of the Reverend Mr. JOHN PENMAN late Minister of the Gospel at Bothkennar
Who departed this life 15th? July 1765
Reader if thou wouldest die his death live his Life"


If either of you would like photos of any of the above stones, send me a PM with your personal e-mail address and I'll forward copies.

Anne



Offline colliersbairn

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Re: James Rae & Margaret Paul - Muiravonside
« Reply #12 on: Friday 09 May 08 19:28 BST (UK) »
Hi Anne,
Yes, I actually saw and took pictures of all of them.  William Penman and Margaret Rae were the obelisk which wasn't under a tree in the 1990's although it was on the ground.  I guess it's been rolled.  The William Penman of Janet Laird is William's son.  Andrew Penman is William's brother.  The Rev. Penman and wife Grisel Ross are, as far as I know, no relation as they were from Midlothian.  There is also a small, crude Rae headstone which, if memory serves, is the grave of Margaret Rae's siblings.  However, memory is a bit creaky right now.

Offline colliersbairn

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Re: James Rae & Margaret Paul - Muiravonside
« Reply #13 on: Friday 09 May 08 19:43 BST (UK) »
Hi Anne,
I forgot to mention...I believe the William Penman, Janet Laird notation is actually on the obelisk not a separate stone at all.  It's on the other side.  It was confusing to me so I went back to Canada and tried to figure out who this mystery child was.

Offline Dano

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Re: James Rae & Margaret Paul - Muiravonside
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 10 May 08 02:12 BST (UK) »
Hi Colliersbairn & Anne,

I had assumed incorrectly it seems that William had 1st married Margaret Welsh.  A silly mistake in hindsight. 

William Penman married to Janet Laird is the only marriage I have for the children of William & Margaret Rae.  I relate to both William  and to Janet Laird.

Dano
Stirlingshire, Scotland - Aitken, Waddell, Wilson, Rae, Dunlop, Liddell, McLuckie. Laird
Carmarthen, Wales - Lewis
Carvan, Ireland - Coyle
N.S.W. Australia - Lewis, Morris

Offline colliersbairn

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Re: James Rae & Margaret Paul - Muiravonside
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 10 May 08 02:55 BST (UK) »
Hey, that is not a "silly me".  Obviously if I had to resort to a paid researcher to sort out the Margarets, it wasn't something that could be done remotely.  I had two days at New Registry House and a 17 BPS pass and I couldn't figure it out.

It just shows that you should be aware that there are more people out there than the records indicate.  Here's a forinstance.  If a man called James Smith were to have five sons that lived to maturity, the third son would be James (Scottish naming practice = 3rd son after the father).  However, the five sons would be obliged to call each of their first born sons James.  In one generation, you could have James Sr., James Jr. and five other James Smiths all in the same parish.

I am sure William Penman married to Margaret Welsh is a relative, I just haven't taken the time to figure out how.

So, Dano, don't feel bad just keep plugging along.  We're all in the same lifeboat together!  We build on each other's research and faulty though it may be, it may lead to another breakthrough. 

I am in the midst of dissecting Eric Edward's Penman family tree.  Eric did a great job with the tools he had but it didn't include a computer.  Nor did he leave references.  I have just discovered that the Alexander Penman that  was suppose to come from Fife, was actually born around Airth to Duncan Penman and Jean Strang.  They did not baptise their children until ten years after they were married.  I found both Alexander and John Penman in Airth, baptising their first borns as Duncan.  Ergo dad was Duncan.

I am sure that when I am gone, somebody else is going to find out through DNA that we're all completely wrong in our historical paperwork.  It's already happened on the Border Reivers DNA.  A bunch of people thought they were Elliotts but in fact, their DNA is Irvine.  Given my grandmother was an Irvine, I gave a quiet cheer.

Offline Kibble

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Re: James Rae & Margaret Paul - Muiravonside
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 10 May 08 22:43 BST (UK) »
I have a James Rae (collier) married to Margaret Rae from Muiravonside though no trace of marriage in Falkirk area or Glasgow.  She was born 1795. Margaret's parents confirmed by death cert as James Rae / Eliz Anderson.  James family unconfirmed, decd by 1851 census when family in Cambusnethan Lanarkshire. Naming pattern close to yours and they continue the pattern through the next generations.  Possible James is son of William Rae & Margaret or Mary Thomson b 1790 Polmont.

They moved from Falkirk area to Govan Colliery where they had children
William 1816, Eliz. 1818, James 1820, Mary 1824, Jean 1827, Andrew 1829, John 1832, Thomas 1834, Peter 1837, Margaret 1839.
1841 they are in Stonelaw,Rutherglen.  Family stay close in Lanarkshire mining areas though many of next generation emigrate to US.
If fits have other marriages, info.


Offline Dano

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Re: James Rae & Margaret Paul - Muiravonside
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 11 May 08 00:47 BST (UK) »
Having gone back to my data on William Penman married to Margaret Welsh, I think he is the son of William Penman & Alison Russell born 1815 Bothkennar.  The naming pattern of the children seems to confrm this.

I believe William was the son of William Penman & Janet Izzat marking him the brother of Andrew Penman married to Jean Burnet.  If I am correct this makes the 2 Williams 1) married to Margaret Rae & 2) married to Margaret Welsh 1st cousins.

Dano
Stirlingshire, Scotland - Aitken, Waddell, Wilson, Rae, Dunlop, Liddell, McLuckie. Laird
Carmarthen, Wales - Lewis
Carvan, Ireland - Coyle
N.S.W. Australia - Lewis, Morris