CHARMAN one name study

[lincsmaster]

Hi,
I'm trying to put together a tree back from Samuel Charman of Warnham, Sx, who was born c1750, and who married Sarah Charman d.o. Edward Charman also of Warnham. Samuel's father appears to have been a Charles Charman, but internet information is sketchy and contradictory. can you help please.
Many thanks

Lincsmaster

[Colin Charman]

Hi, you're quite right - it is sketchy and contradictory. I've been building the Charman tribes family tree (all of it) for 20 years now and this is what I have:

Sarah Charman was baptised 11/11/1757 Warnham daughter of Edward Charman & Ann (possiby Ann Styant). Edward was my GGGGFfather, a yeoman farmer and very well off.  His will makes specific provision for looking after Sarah if her husband Samuel  is unable to support her. So, I have to guess that Samuels family were not well off. Sarah died some time after 1788 (her last child) - possibly buried 24/10/1809 Warnham.

Samuel Charman was bap 26/12/1850 and buried 12/11/1831 Warnham. He was the son of Charles Charman & Mary (nee Knight) married 20/4/1742 Warnham.  Note that this couple had a son Charles (27/2/1744) who married Sarah Knight - not sure how she is related to Mary Knight although Ive traced her a few generations. 

Charles Charman was probably born somewhere around 1720 and buried 10/6/1792 Warnham. Mary (nee Knight) was probably bap 10/7/1718 Slinfold and died some time after 1762 - there are several burials to choose from.

I have not found a baptism that appears to be this Charles Charman (born around 1720) - in fact I can't find any baptism of a Charles Charman anywhere in England before 1744 apart from one born 1681 in Arundel who died in 1691.  But that doesnt mean there weren't any!

There was a Charles Charman recorded as having a son Edward in Birmingham in 1694, another having a daughter Ann in Aldgate in 1712, and yet another who seems to have married at least twice - to Ann Aylward (1763 Horsham) and Mary Muggeridge (1773 Ifield).  This Charles appears to be buried 14/1/1790 in Ifield (no age given) and his wives Ann and Mary died 1771 and 1774 respectively. Theres a burial of a Sarah Charman 11/4/1790 Ifield who may be a third wife.

So who the heck were all these Charles Charmans? I don't know, but I wonder if the absence of baptisms might be explained by King Charles II (1630-1685) not being a very popular chap in some quarters - those were sensitive times.

Could our Charles Charman (about 1720) have been born as Charles under another surname?  Well, there are only four baptisms in Warnham of Charles xxxx before Charles Charman in 1744. They were Charles Tanner (1625), Charles Tovee/Tovey (1719), Charles Butcher (1720) and Charles Mose/Moase (1732).  Note the gap between 1625 and 1719 - the period King Charles I and II.

I have eliminated Charles Tovey (1719) - he seems to have married in Horsham 1739 and raised a family until he died in 1781. I haven't looked at Charles Butcher - perhaps his mother re-married or went to live with a Charman (no record of that), but there are possible Charman family links to a Butcher family from Rudgwick/Slinfold, their son Thomas Butcher may be Charles Butchers father. Needs a bit more time.

Other possibilities for Charles Charman (abt 1720):
Perhaps he  was born in the area surrounding Warnham, under some other surname. I haven't looked at this.
Perhaps he was born in Warnham with another firstname and adopted the name Charles at some time in his life.
Perhaps he just wasn't baptised at all - I reckon about 2-5% were not baptised for whatever reason.

Its notable that Charles etc were a poor-ish family - no wills or property that I've found.

If you want to do some real research to fill in a few gaps, you could find out where the Charles Charmans lie in Warnham graveyard. There are no stones surviving, but I believe there may be a burial plan in the hands of the local vicar - the Rev Loveless (!!)

I have all this in a tree in ancestry - with more notes, deductions and possibilities. You're welcome to take a look.

[lincsmaster]

Hi Colin,
Thank you very much for taking the time to give me such a detailed response. I will try and do your sterling efforts justice by providing some useful input. Edward is one of my 5x GGparents, through Samuel, his son Michael and then Michael's daughter Lucy. Like you I have been at this game for a long time, but on this line, have been stuck at Lucy for many, many years because I did not have her baptism. Later census entries give her place of birth as Warnham, but there is no baptism in the PR. Most of Michael's other children were baptised in Warnham, but not Lucy. Recently however, I came across a reference to a Lucy Charman , d.o. Michael, baptised in Poynings in Nov 1811, which I'm hoping will be the entry I was looking for. Yes, Samuel was obviously the poor relation, but Edward allowed his daughter to marry her love, and even provided the house for them to live in. A nice story.
Yes, I will certainly follow up the churchyard plan reference - Edward must certainly have had a headstone at some time. You almost certainly will have this reference but I will mention it just in case - Diocese and Archdeaconry of Chichester, Deposition Books, Jan 1617 - Mar 1626, a John Charman of Warnham, husbandman, was witness to the will of Thomas Borer of Warnham in Dec 1625. The entry tells us that John was born, and had always lived in Warnham, and that he was aged about 46 years ie born c1579 in Warnham. Was he the father of John bc 1608?   
More later
Best wishes
Richard

[Colin Charman]

Hi
I suppose Lucy being baptised in Poynings was something to do with Elizabeth Slaughter coming from that general area, or something to do with Michaels service in the Sussex Militia.

Both Michael and Lucy are very uncommon Charman names so its hard to imagine that theres another at that time.

What exactly does the Poynings PR say? Do you have an image of the page?

[Colin Charman]

I haven't seen that deposition book - is it accessible at Chichester?

The deduced date of 1579 for that John Charman fits with the son of John Charman and Ann Boorer - presumably Thomas Borer was Ann Borers brother. 

[charman, roger guy]

Hi Colin, this is just a "feeler" message to know if I may still question you about my family tree. I'm new at this. Please email me or post a word, thank you in advance Roger C.

[tessacate]

Hi there

I am hoping you can tell me if you have an Edward Charman born to John Charman and Mary Sefton between about 1726 and 1750 please? 

John Charman (from Slinfold, Sussex) and Mary Sefton (from Wooton, Surrey) were married in London on 17 May 1726 in St Benet Paul's Wharf, London. Those children of theirs that I could find were born in Slifold, Sussex - but I couldn't find an Edward.

Edward Charman had a son named Sefton in 1770 baptised in Selham so it is very likely his parents were John Charman and Mary Sefton (who also named one of their children Sefton), but I can't find a baptism record for Edward anywhere.   

I would very much appreciate your advice please.

Cheers
Therese 

[Colin Charman]

Hi, about Edward Charman b 1730.

After a lot of digging, I concluded that Sefton Charman (bap 1730 Slinfold) was known as Edward Charman for the rest of his life.

I have no evidence for this except that theres no trace of Sefton after his baptism, and there is plenty to confirm that John & Mary had a son known as Edward, who passed his mothers name on to his son Sefton.

John Charman (marr to Mary Sefton) had a brother Edward born in 1702 so its reasonable to think that he may have passed the name onto his son.

John and Mary don't seem to have applied the normal convention for naming their children but they were nodding to it by baptising Sefton. Its a little surprising that all their childrens names came from the Charman side and that they didnt honour Mary Seftons parents Joseph & Abigail.

It would be nice to find some evidence that I have this right but I don't think thats going to happen.

Regards, Colin Charman
(email: colin.charman@gmail.com)

[tessacate]

Hi Colin

Many thanks for taking the time to reply to my question about Edward Charman and apologies for not acknowledging your advice before now.  I only just saw the message.   

I looked at your tree on Ancestry for Sefton (Edward) Charman b. 1730 and see you have his pedigree as:

Sefton (Edward) Charman
Parents : John Charman and Mary Sefton
Grandparents : John Charman and Sarah Stanford
Great grandparents Francis Charman and Ann Heath

I would like Francis Charman and Ann Heath to be the right couple in this pedigree, however, I'm stuck on proving that Francis Charman is John Charman Snr's father.  The reason I'm stuck is that I have 4 different baptism records in Slinfold (plus 2 in nearby Warnham) between 1666 and 1680 for people named John Charman (one of whose father is certainly Francis Charman).

Would you mind sharing with me your reasoning as to why you believe Francis Charman and Ann Heath are the right parents for the John Charman who married Sarah Stanford please.

I am of course happy to send you my spreadsheet with all the BDM details I have located for different John Charmans in Slinfold and nearby. 

Kind regards and thank you again for replying so helpfully to my earlier request. 

Therese